Round 3: Ferbian v GuyCompton

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Is Abyss’ current run in the upper midcard/main event is way the way he should have been booked originally in TNA?

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Ferbian is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I will debate the fact that Abyss' current run is in fact the way he should have been booked originally in TNA. And I would like to go first.
     
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  3. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    I will debate the fact that Abyss' current run in the upper mid-card / Main Event card is in fact the way Abyss should originally have been booked. I wish Guy luck in this debate, and I hope it will be a good one.

    ----------------

    Abyss is a monster

    Abyss has always been addressed as some kind of a monster. The way he act, the way he speaks. Everything about him, is monster like. However he started out in a short feud, only to become Kid Nash's bodyguard. That's not monster like.

    With the current booking of Abyss, as a true monster, a maniac that runs wild in TNA, that's how you book a monster. That's how Abyss should originally have been booked, he should have been tearing through the roster Brock Lesnar style. But he was not, Abyss was booked as a mediocre kind of monster, he wasn't unstoppable, his first manager wasn't even worth naming a monster like manager.

    [YOUTUBE]BMeYsdh24J4[/YOUTUBE]

    This is how you book a monster, someone who stands tall in the end.

    Janice

    First off, how can you not love that name? Janice is Abyss' pet 2x4 nail board. The very thing that left the TNA world champion RVD looking like a bloody mess, all thanks to Abyss and Janice.

    This weapon might not have been something needed in his original run, however it sure as hell have helped Abyss become a dominant force to be reckoned with, something that should have been true from the start of this guys career.

    Mick Foley - Version 2?

    Mick Foley as Mankind have always been a crazed monster, and at the top as well. Mick has always been a tough nut to crack and to keep down, especially in hardcore matches. Abyss reminds me a lot of Mankind, and I'm sure a lot of people agree with me, Abyss is the second coming of Mankind, but he was never booked like that. A failure on TNA's side I must say.

    Size And Force Matters

    Abyss has the size, he has the force and power behind his in-ring ability. He's limited you might say, however he's more than capable of acting like a monster. Something TNA should have capitalized on from the start.

    He's Bound To Become Champion Soon

    Now this might be arguable. However Abyss wasn't given a championship until 2006, a world title at least. He was booked as a tag team champion with the very guy he went on to feud with, A.J Styles.

    Abyss is most likely to become champion sooner or later, he's dominant and could easily be one to put down RVD's title reign. Something that wasn't done for him in the start, something that is needed behind the whole monster moniker.

    Abyss Is A Current Success

    He's over as a heel right now. He's dominant, and he is getting pushed worth a damn. Abyss is a consistent heel for TNA right now, a kind of go-to-guy when it comes to putting on great heel work. And TNA has obviously not realized it until now, they should have made Abyss the monster he truly was during the start of his run because of the fact that Abyss is over as a heel when he's dominating.

    Good luck Guy, I'll be waiting your answer. Also I will note that I most likely won't have a reply up tomorrow if Guy replies, I'll be having driving lessons, and will most likely be watching Summerslam before I get online here, however I shall give a try at having a reply up.
     
  4. Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson DA-DA Da Da Da Bah Da Da DADADA

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    Abyss HAD potential to be TNA's version of The Undertaker or Kane.

    I think Abyss was at his most interesting back when he had James Mitchell as a manager. James Mitchell is one of the best managers in this business, and he's vastly underrated. For some reason, he's not a manager in the WWE or TNA right now, which is a shame.

    It's hard to argue the counterpoint for this debate, because Abyss is having a great run, one he hasn't had in a long time in TNA. He's a legitimate threat to the World Title. However, he still leaves a lot to be desired on the mic. He's really bad when it comes to cutting promos. He comes off as cartoonish.

    And with how he's been booked over the last couple of years, his credibility has taken a major hit. I personally don't care about Abyss, because I feel his ship sailed a long time ago. Instead of being a real monster, he abuses himself. He comes off as being whiny. Why should I care about this big lug who is a danger to himself as much as he's a danger to his opponents?

    When James Mitchell was with Abyss, he took the legwork out of Abyss coming off as being borderline ******ed in his promos. He put Abyss over, and he did a damn good job at it. He's a pretty scary dude himself, except he's pretty much a midget. What made Mitchell such a damn good manager for a guy like Abyss is that you can easily buy into him as being batshit insane, and he's the one who is advising this monster.

    The way Abyss should be booked, and the way he should have been booked all along is that you have the prototype for a Michael Myers type character and with James Mitchell, it's like you basically have a deranged Dr. Loomis, who is telling Abyss to be destructive, rather than preventing it.

    Of course, you can't book Abyss as a serial killer. However, much like Kane, back in his first run with the WWF, you can book him as an unstoppable monster, where it takes a LOT to put him down. A silent, brooding seven foot monster wearing a mask doesn't need to cut promos, and in Abyss' case, he's pretty bad at cutting promos, to the point where it takes away his credibility. With James Mitchell, you have that tool to sell to the fans where his credibility wouldn't be damaged, and you had these two who had the potential to run wild on TNA.

    That's how Abyss should have been booked in the first place. And when he was booked with James Mitchell as his mouthpiece, I easily bought him as a monster. How awesome would it have been if those two were booked like a deranged Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar?

    If you really want to put Abyss over as a monster, why bother giving him a weapon? This isn't a horror movie, it's pro wrestling. Put him over as a guy who will fuck you up with his bare hands, and that it would take an extraordinary effort to put him down. It gives an even bigger rub to the guy who can actually beat him.

    The difference between Mankind and Abyss is that Foley knows the art of putting a promo together and he knew how to work a crowd. Abyss' promos entice the viewer to change the channel because they're so bad and cartoonish. Abyss should have been put over as a Kane/Undertaker type monster from the start. A basically unstoppable force who has a batshit insane mouthpiece.

    I acknowledge that our arguments are very similar, but I feel there are enough differences here where we can turn this into a debate. I cannot, in good conscience, try to even play Devil's Advocate, because Abyss as an escaped mental patient dressed as a milkman, or as a lovesick puppy, or feuding with his therapist, or being written as a thinly veiled rapist, or as the second coming of Dave Sullivan are all terrible angles.

    However, Abyss should have been booked as a Michael Myers-ish monster, and they had that going for awhile with James Mitchell as his equally deranged mouthpiece. And I think his character has taken such a bad turn where you can't take him seriously because of all the aforementioned awful gimmicks he's had.
     
  5. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    Yet his credibility is currently regaining slowly, or should you say rapidly. He's dominating, and he has laid out former main event wrestlers, as well as former world champions.

    Abyss might very well be a self abusing kind of monster, and a whiny one at that. I could very well agree with that. But is there not many variations of how a monster can be displayed and be played? Abyss is just one of many ways to play a monster.

    You mentioned earlier something alongside the Kane / Undertaker booking. It might have made sense to give him somewhat of a manager. However he wasn't given that during his first years, until James Mitchell took over 2 years after Abyss' debut, and after a horrible manager, as well as being a bodyguard for someone who Abyss certainly didn't belong next to.

    Michael Myers? Arguable. I know later on you mention about not booking him like a serial killer. But how can you not book a Michael Myers version like a serial killer?

    Currently it's more of a Mankind kind of booking, but with a large twist of brutality involved as well. Not just getting his ass kicked all across hardcore matches, but actually dishing out the punishment left and right.

    The bold part describes exactly how Abyss is being booked right now. Has anybody stopped him yet? I don't recall, I must've missed that episode of TNA if that is the case.

    Abyss has dominated a decent handful of wrestlers. He hasn't dominated the whole roster, but a fair deal to call him almost unstoppable.

    The promos are fine. That's why I'm thinking more of him like a Mankind replacement. And how could you not?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Actually, come to think of it. The gimmick is very Mankind like, however the mask makes him seem more like a bad case of Hannibal Lecter. A monster as well you might say, but sure as hell not how we want to book Abyss, would cause a mess.

    Why is it that I went :shrug: when you mentioned Paul Heyman? I don't know really. Must because the whole deal would suck. Paul would most likely never be associated with Abyss, and probably never should. Abyss might not be perfect on the microphone, but he's doing just fine. And he comes off as more of a monster and deranged when he gets to cut his own promos, rather than having some mouthpiece tell people how messed up this guy is.

    Again, different ways to book him. Did you not just say he should be booked like Michael Myers? Sure, no knife around, what else can hurt?

    I could agree that essentially he doesn't need Janice, however it helps for him to come off as more of a monster. It makes a good way for him to continue being dominant, with an enforcer like weapon by his side. A great way of booking him, a way that TNA failed during his first few years.

    Change the channel is an arguable thing. I would certainly say that I approve more or less of Abyss being allowed to cut a promo. He's not without the ability, he's not Mark Henry, Guy.

    Mick Foley could work a crowd, I get that, but the resemblance between the two is still more and more existent by the minute as Abyss continue to build this deranged monster like gimmick.

    "They" are certainly helping on the whole deranged thing. Something Mick didn't have, however certainly something that has helped Abyss become more deranged seeing as a lot of people believed in EV2.0 being "They" but they weren't. It keeps him interesting, as well as it gets his monster like tendencies over.

    Agreed, the arguments are very much alike.

    It's certainly something that are slowly being rebuild. By theory in all of your arguments you could say that Mankind couldn't be taken serious either. Because he was just as messed up and had quite a strange gimmick. Much like the one that abyss is currently running.
     
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  6. Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson DA-DA Da Da Da Bah Da Da DADADA

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    I'm going to be 100% honest here, I have a lot going on this week, and I feel that this is a (no offense to you D-Man) terrible topic that is pretty much one sided. Abyss has never been booked correctly except for now and when he was with James Mitchell. It basically comes down to whether or not if he should or shouldn't have a manager, and I'm going to be wasting a lot of energy going back and forth for what comes down to a simple question, especially for such a shit wrestler like Abyss.

    So, I'll be conceding this debate and I'll be saving my energy for the coming weeks.
     
    Ferbian likes this.
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Both guys opened nice and tidy and kept it good here.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    GC was delayed and eventually had to do a withdraw.

    Informative: GC
    He gave more detailed info about a Abyss from past to present.

    Persuasion: Ferbian
    This is simply more than because GC conceded early, he didn't really give much of a counter argument, so Ferbian gets it because I do feel that Abyss should have been booked this way.

    Final Score
    Ferbian: 3.5
    GuyCompton: 1.5
     
  8. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Both had well thought out openers, and kept it nice and clean.

    Point: Split

    Punctuality: Give it to Ferbs since Guy was late and eventually withdrew.

    Point: Ferbian

    Informative: His points bringing up James Mitchell and his old ways help get Guy this point.

    Point: Guy Compton

    Persuasion: If Guy could have had one more post, I probably would have given him one of these points. James Mitchell was a great manager for Abyss, and if they stayed together they would have created even more havoc. But it shall go to Ferbs since Guy withdrew and it's really one argument of manager or no manager.

    Points: Ferbian

    CH David scores this Ferbian 3.5, Guy Compton 1.5
     
  9. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: Ferbian
    I don't think I've made the comparison yet, but I will now: Ferbian is this year's Steamboat Ricky.

    Punctuality: Ferbian
    Ferbian for reasons already listed.

    Informative: GC
    I thought both guys brought in a good amount of information, but Guy won at the margin.

    Persuasion: Ferbian
    GuyCompton has a lot of things on his plate, and Ferbian went full throttle. Maybe the match-up will be more even should these two meet again, but Ferbian owned this match-up.

    Final Score
    Ferbian: 4
    GuyCompton:1
     
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    To be quite honest, in last year's debate tournament, I was thrown into debates that seemed to be one-sided to me. I remember feeling just as frustrated as GuyCompton seemed to be here. But I still went full speed ahead in those debates and I actually won two out of three of them.

    It goes to show: It doesn't matter whether you agree with the topic or not. A debate is about taking a side and convincing someone. The topic doesn't have to be in your favor... you just have to prove that you're the best debater.

    GuyCompton didn't think he was doing well here but he was wrong. It's a shame that he didn't continue.

    Clarity: Ferbian
    Punctuality: Ferbian
    Informative: Split
    Persuasion: Ferbian

    Final Score
    Ferbian: 4.5
    GuyCompton:0.5
     
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Ferbian is the victor with 15.5 points to GuyCompton's 4.5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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