Round 1: Dave -vs- Unsex

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 1, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which is the better cage match type, Elimination Chamber or Hell in a Cell?

    This is a first round match in the Debater's League. Dave is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate he will be on and who debates first, but he has 24 hours to make his choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I'll nominate Remix to go first and I will be debating that Hell In A Cell matches are better.

    Good luck, Remix.
     
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  3. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Thanks Dave.

    I am going to be arguing for the superiority of the elimination champer over Hell in a Cell. There are many reasons for this that I will go in to in the main body of my arguement.

    The first reason that The Chamber is that from the outset it was designed to be the ultimate enclosure match. The original Hell in a Cell took place for one reason. The old steel cage (with the blue bars) hurt like hell. Shawn hit upon the idea of making the cage bigger and having it made of mesh, so that it was less painful and more cool spots could be done (e.g. monkeybar elbowdrops). This is very noble, but it doesn't change the fact that the idea itself is simple taking something one step further in its development process.

    On the other hand, The Elimination Chamber (while taking elements from other match types) was a very unique idea, and taking the elements from War Games, the Royal Rumble and every other idea that went into its development resulted in the Elimination Chamber being at the pinnacle of cage matches. Nothing does the job of an Elimination Chamber match better than an Elimination Chamber, and it'd be near damn impossible to invent a match that does. Want a better hardcore cage match? hang weapons from the roof or add some barbed wire.

    Hell in a Cell was like inventing a TV with a remote control. The Elimination chamber was like inventing a flatscreen LCD TV. Which is more impressive and unique?

    Secondly, the mystique of the Elimination Chamber is very much in tact. Look at the records of both matches. Hell in a Cell has had matches where the result was a no contest, been on free TV, been used for pointless matches (DX vs McMahons and the Big Show) and very prone to outside interference. This degredation has resulted in the Hell in a Cell being somewhat neutered compared to how it was originally intended. This is not true with the Elimination Chamber, which has had somebody winning clean every single time. The ONLY case where outside intereference came into play was this year when Shawn Michaels climbed in through the floor, didn't get involved and Jericho cleanly pinned 'Taker. And compared to this from the original:

    [youtube]83oHI2QOTYg[/youtube]

    that's not bad.

    Finally, the most memorable moment in Hell in a Cell history is summed up nicely by this:

    [youtube]tTtZmdzv_L0[/youtube]

    Note that these memorable moments take place outside the cage. The point of a cage match is to keep the competitors in, everybody else out and provide no dispute as to who the better man is. And my posted youtube videos prove, HiaC isn't good at any of those things. Kane broke in to the first, the second was a no contest, the third barely took place in the ring and the fourth featured a no contest, a fall from outside the cage (which apparently hurt more than the famous one on PPV) and outside interference.

    Hell in a Cell provided the moments which defined an era. But if you want the best original cage match in WWE history, you want the Elimination Chamber.
     
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  4. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Great opening post, Remix. It’s going to be great debating you.

    Opening Statements

    Ladies and gentlemen, in this debate, I have been tasked with the primary objective to convince you that the Hell in a Cell match is indeed the better cage type match and I feel very contented with my choice. For you see, anyone who has been watching wrestling for the last 15 years or so will realise that this is an absolute no-contest. I am hoping that with the evidence and arguments that I am going to set out throughout this debate, that you will eventually subscribe to the opinion that the Hell in a Cell match is far superior to the Elimination Chamber match.

    First of all, let me take you on a trip into my past. The event was No Way Out 2002 and it was my first full-length PPV that my parents ever let me stay up to 4AM to watch live. The main event of that card, as many will remember, was Triple H vs. Cactus Jack (AKA Mankind/Mick Foley) and my excitement reached fever pitch as I watched the Cell descend from the rafters and close-in around two men who had everything to lose. Now, this may immediately sound like a digression but it is quite the opposite. In a debate like this, there is no factual evidence for which match is better, Rather, this debate will hinge on my ability to be able to convince you that the Hell in a Cell match is the better cage match and my opinion on this matter will be vital… As will yours.

    So, without further ado, let us get into this thing.

    Main Body

    Over the last 13 years, we have been treated to 19 Hell in a Cell match and I am of the opinion that all of them have given us great moments that we will always remember. Starting with Shawn Michaels and The Undertaker in 1997, the Hell in a Cell match has continued to grow in popularity and is commonly used as the blow-off match to particularly violent encounters or feuds between two wrestlers. Over the 13 years that the Hell in a Cell match has been utilized for, the very best of the WWE have stepped into that Cell and have entertained us with everything they have got. From Shawn Michaels to the Undertaker, from Triple H to John Cena, from Stone Cold to The Rock, everyone who is anyone has stepped into that Cell and when two great performers get together in the ring, surrounded by a mesh of steel that weighs over 5 tonnes, you can expect great things and that is what the Hell in a Cell match has delivered.

    It has given magnificent picture moments that no one will ever be able to forget. From the innovators of the match type to the young stars that we see compete these days, every match has been a treat to witness and the moments that will shape the wrestling business are aplenty. The Hell in a Cell match has literally been trusted to the biggest and best names of the WWF/E and the same cannot be said for the Elimination Chamber match. Sure, when it began, we were all treated to the likes of Shawn Michaels, Goldberg, Triple H and Rob Van Dam but as the match continued it evolution into the future, we have seen the main event talent dwindle inside the Elimination Chamber. You have gone from seeing the likes of Kurt Angle being replaced by Big Daddy V and Mike Knox. My point being that what started out strongly has become little more than filler for the mid-card division.

    This is not the case for the Hell in a Cell match. Every competitor who has entered that hellacious cage has been on top of there game and without the WWE prostituting it out as a PPV theme, that record would still stand. The men who entered that Cell gave it everything the experiences we have achieved through that are numerous.

    Who will ever forget Mick Foley hurtling off of the Cell and through the commentary table in 1998? Or who will ever forget Mankind and Triple H battling it out on top of the Cell, with Mankind eventually plummeting through the top of the Cell and ,indeed, through the canvas below? You see, the Hell in a Cell match has given us moments that will live long in the memory of the casual and hardcore wrestling fan.

    As I struggled to make a choice on which side of the fence I was going to sit for this debate, one thing kept becoming prevalent to my mind and that was the moments that the Hell in a Cell match had given us. When you think of the Elimination Chamber match, can you think of any moment that has given you the same enjoyment as watching the two matches that I have listed previously? I, for one, cannot and I would hope that you agree with me.

    Any moment that we have seen has been exacerbated by the fact that what surrounds the competitors is the most vicious structure to ever grace a WWE match. You can all you want about the Elimination Chamber and it’s perplex glass but to me, it doesn’t have the same danger as the Hell in a Cell match does. Inside of a Hell in a Cell, it is a case of hurt people or be hurt. In the Elimination Chamber, you could easily saunter in as the last remaining participant and cover the one man who has been in from the start. Now, whilst I appreciate that the WWE have been a little more creative than that but the Hell in a Cell match is not about being a random participant into a match that could be as easy to win as nut-kicking competition with a child.

    No, the Hell in a Cell match is about inflicting pain and punishment with whatever you have got at your disposal. The Hell in a Cell match does not care for people being fresher than others when they enter. Rather, it’s very purpose it to maim those very competitors and you know that whoever wins the match definitely deserved it. Can the same be said of the Elimination Chamber match?

    Whilst I understand that most of the great moments of Hell in a Cell matches have indeed come from outside of the Cell, are you actually implying that this is a bad thing? I can honestly say that the most I have ever been entertained whilst watching a match, is watching Mick Foley fall through the cage and through the ring. The fans were absolutely taken aback by what they were seeing and the Hell in a Cell match has never failed to give the fans what they wanted. Whether it was outside of the Cell or not, it is a part of the match and outside interference is also a part of that formula. I mean, look at the last Elimination Chamber match. Wasn’t the Undertaker screwed out of his Championship by an intruding Shawn Michaels? Some would argue that that moment was one of the most interesting moments of the night but by your logic, the entertainment was lost because of it.
     
  5. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Thankyou for the compliment Dave, your response is likewise excellent. And I will enjoy debating you.

    Indeed, there is no 'correct' answer. However, the logical answer is that the Elimination Chamber is the superior cage match.

    Main Body

    However, it simply doesn't wirk as a feud ender any more. John Cena's feud with Randy Orton didn't end in the Cell, nor did Undertaker and CM Punk's/ Thirteen years ago, you'd be right, but now... not so much.

    Umm what about that sentence isn't true about the Elimination Chamber? Ok, less big names have been in it. But that's a consiquence of it being a younger match. If the Elimination chamber had existed in the attitude era, you could bet your bottom dollar that all those guys would have been in it, and most of them have been.

    As for the weight, The Elimination chamber is over 16 tons. As an enclosure, The Chamber takes the cake.

    Very true, Hell in a Cell has been host to a lot of big names, and great moments. The same is true of the Elimination Chamber.

    Yes, you can't forget what massive stars the Big Bossman, Rikishi Shane McMahon, Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes were :rolleyes:.

    Nothing to do with the chamber itself. That is everything to do with the thinning of the Main Event scene in WWE. There are fewer Main Eventers in the Elimination Chamber each year because there are fewer Main eventers available.

    Considering that every Elimination Chamber has been for a world title. I don't think that 'midcard filler' quite fits the Elimination Chamber. Especially when you've had matches like DX vs Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon and The Big Show in the Cell.

    No Dave. Just no. Look at the past it guys who have competed in the Cell. a 45 yearold Kevin Nash, a 61 yearold Vince McMahon, a 'retiring' Mick Foley and a broken down Undertaker on numerous occasions. Also, didn't the 'Kennell from Hell' match feature the Cell?

    So, because Mick Foley is insane and willing to take insane bumps, shorten his career and near damn kill himself the Hell in a Cell is a better match?

    I do agree, Mick Foley's insanity has provided moments in wrestling history that may never be surpassed. However, that doesn't stop Hell in a Cell being the worse match type. Hell in a Cell is slowly dying for the Attitude Era's sins. What's happening with the Hell in a Cell match now is what would happen if Ladder Matches had to go from where they are now to where they were before the Hardy Boyz revolusionised it. In the Cell, there are new limits to how much you can do in there, and modern Cell matches barely use the cage at all. it has gone from 'Satanic Structure' to a ring surrounded by an oversized cage which is barely used.

    I'm sorry, but a cage designed to be less painful than the existing cage is WWE's most vicious structure?

    Umm ignoring the unpadded steel floor on the outside of the cage, the bulletproof glass pods and the miles of steel chains (all of which are dangers the Cell doesn't posess) what about the Chamber is 'soft'? You have hit the nail on the head here though about the difference between the Cell and the Chamber. The Cell is supposed to be the Omega event in a feud. After this they can go on no longer.

    The Chamber is, and will always be about putting a Champion through the ultimate test. If someone can enter the most solid structure in the WWE they can survive anything. This is the structure that Triple H got his larynx crushed in. The event which enabled Edge and Batista to take the easy route to becoming a champion.

    Thirteen years after the original Hell in a Cell, it has been degraded to the point where it is no longer an Omega event. To the point where the matches may as well not have the cage. To the point where it has been surpassed by the Elimination Chamber.

    No it cannot. But it doesn't need to. The Cell was designed to end feuds and look brutal doing it. But when CM Punk gets beaten in double quick time, and is still feuding with 'Taker a month later, it doesn't do that any more.

    And as for the Chamber? A champion who survives that ordeal is instantly credible. He has beaten 5 hungry men inside a 16 ton cage. When Chris Jericho won the most recent Elimination Chamber, was he not considered to be a valid champion? In spite of him hiding from the Undertaker, who battered on the nigh unbreakable glass with John Morrison's head?

    When you're talking about an enclosure match, yes. Take another recognisible moment from years past. The submission match between Stone Cold and Bret Hart. The bit everybody remembers is when Stone Cold passes out in a pool of his own blood. That moment put over the power of the Sharpshooter and how tough Stone Cold was in one fell swoop. The moment epitomised the match and the match type. The point of the Cell was to provide an arena where nobody could get out and nobody could get in and there could be no arguements over who the winner was. When Mick Foley climbered onto the Cell roof it provided an epic two moments. However, it was not a spot which should have been in a HiaC match. It would have been perfect for a match where the point was to throw your opponent off a tall object (like some scaffolding or sometihng) but not a match where the point is to stay inside a cage and beat the holy hell out of your opponent. A great mement to be sure, but not a moment which truely fitted the match.

    THe fans wanted to see Vince McMahon's head shoved up the Big Show's arse, or Big Bossman get 'hanged'?

    Well, there's a big difference between Shawn Michaels climbing in and never touching 'Taker but allowing Jericho to hit the Codebreaker and win (semi) clean and Kane busting down the door, tombstoning 'Taker and enabling a tombstoned Michaels to get the unclean as hell win.
     
  6. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Stating that something doesn’t work any more is quite a bold thing to do and I feel as though you have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. Yes, John Cena’s match with Randy Orton at Hell in a Cell last year was not the blow-off match in this feud but it certainly ended the feud between DX and Legacy for a long time. It also signalled the end for CM Punk’s feud with The Undertaker and both of these matches and feuds are fine examples of times when the Hell in a Cell match has ended feuds.

    Also, you need to remember that Randy Orton and John Cena then contested and hour long Iron Match in which anything goes was a stipulation. Yes, the Hell in a Cell match did not end the feud but an even more hellacious match awaited both of the competitors. The Cell was just a progression as the feud got more intense and destructive. Would and elimination chamber match have done the same for these two men?

    I respectfully disagree with your claim that it is because it is a younger match. Yes, the Hell in a Cell match is the older of the two but the names who have competed in the Hell in a Cell match have been consistently good. With 6 spots in the elimination chamber match, you will always have some room for the filler. I mean, there was no way that Mike Know was ever going to win that match but all of the people who have competed in a Hell in a Cell match have had a very realistic chance of winning the match. The same is not true of the elimination chamber and that takes away from the intrigue of the match for me.

    Dude, I see what you are trying to do here but you are completely wrong.

    Trying to trivialise these men is beyond ridiculous and all of them can be easily explained away. The Big Bossman was seen as a solid competitor at this point and it was right at the height of the Ministry’s dominance. The Ministry have now gone into WWE legend and people still talk about them fondly. Rikishi was embroiled in an angle with Stone Cold, Triple H and The Rock at this point and that angle is still one which I hold very dearly as a memory. At this stage of his career, Rikishi was being put over really well and although it ultimately failed, Rikishi’s place in this match was almost assured.

    As for Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes, they are just young superstars who have a very bright future ahead of them. Although they failed to win against DX, they were still put over really well against two of the greatest competitors that the WWE has ever seen.

    It has nothing to do with that, Remix.

    You previously argued that people like Legacy and Rikishi had no place in the Hell in a Cell match but at the time of the match, all of these guys were always in with a legitimate chance of winning the match. It has to do with the WWE building the superstars who are going into the match. I would argue that those going into a Hell in a Cell match command more respect from fans and peers that those going into an elimination chamber because they have no escape. The WWE uses this to their advantage and I cannot recall a WWE Hell in a Cell match in which I have thought that someone did not stand a legitimate chance of winning.

    Elimination Chambers have a strange habit of showing the gulf in class and build that plagues the superstars involved. Before every EC match, you can automatically rule out half of the people who are not going to win and that kills the very point of the match.

    Yeah because Triple H, Shawn Michaels, The Big Show and Vince McMahon don’t cut it in the main event, right?

    Please!

    Kevin Nash was in the World Heavyweight Championship race for good reason. He teamed with Shawn Michaels frequently suring this perios and was constantly in the ring with people like Ric Flair, Triple H and Randy Orton. He was build into that match and didn’t seem like an outsider that had been thrown in. Plus, the only reason that Nash was in the Cell match with Triple H was so that Triple H could not get DQ’d.

    Mick Foley and The Undertaker have given s brilliant moments and matches inside the Cell, broken down or not. At the end of the day, Remix, it all comes down to entertainment value and whether a broken down Undertaker and Mick Foley surpasses a fully fit Mike Knox and I know what my response to this would be. Any wrestling fan should agree.

    Absolutely!

    Mick knew what he was doing when they planned these spots and they have paid off for both him and the WWE. The fans still talk about how recklessly insane they were and they will always hold a place in the nostalgic memories of the WWE fans who have seen those moments. Nothing (and I do mean nothing) that has happened in the Elimination Chamber match has given me as much entertainment or enjoyment as the moments given to us by wrestlers putting their careers on the line.

    And what in that paragraph is not true of the elimination chamber?

    If the Hell in a Cell match is slowly dying of the Attitude Era’s sins then the Elimination Chamber match is just a tame product of the new PG WWE. Attitude may be gone from the WWE but when two men step inside the Cell on very rare occasions, you know it has the potential to be enthralling. I have never watched an elimination chamber match and found myself guessing what was going to happen next, with the possible exception of Michaels getting involved.

    Once these men are in the chambers, then the match is pretty open and shut really, There is so much untapped potential from the chamber that it is unreal. However, a lot of that potential would come from getting out of the cage and for the match type to be successful, then there needs to be a whole lot of order. I mean, it wouldn’t make sense if two competitors got out of the Elimination Chamber cell and fought throughout the arena, leaving the other 4 men in their respective chambers. The unpredictability of the Hell in a Cell match will always outdo the tightly ordered Elimination Chamber.

    Sorry, two seconds ago you were arguing that wrestlers causing themselves to encounter possible career-shortening injuries was a bad thing and now you are saying that the measures that the WWE have put into place to try and ensure that the match can be as “brutal” as possible whilst being entertaining are bad things?

    Putting a Champion to the ultimate test? I beg to differ, mate.

    Of the last 6 Elimination Chamber matches, the Champion has not been involved with a third of them. Rather, the two matches at No Way Out 2008 were number one contender matches. Furthermore, of the last 4 elimination chamber matches, the Champions have come out of their pos at the last entrant half of the time.

    How can this match really be putting a champion to the ultimate test if some of the competitiors in the match could have already been competing in the match for 30 minutes before the Champion came into the mix?

    Are you implying that Jericho would not have been considered a valid Champion if he had not entered the match from the last position. Or would he not have been considered a valid Champion if he had won the Championship in a singles match. Dude! We are talking about Chris Jericho here. The man is possibly one of the most well-rounded superstars that the wrestling business has ever encountered and no matter when Jericho wins the Championship belts, he is always considered a valid Champion these days.

    Actually, I would beg to differ. The moments that people like Mick Foley have given us from outside of the cage are something that the WWE are very proud of and indeed hang their hats on. You say that those spots do not deserve to be in the Hell in a Cell matches but look at the description that the WWE give to their fans about the Hell in a Cell match:

    Those spots have had a huge impact and as the WWE have shown us by their own descriptions mean everything to that match type. Those moments easily surpass anything that the elimination chamber has given us and for me, they are hell of a lot more entertaining. Whe it comes right down to it, entertainment value will always sway what fans think of certain matches and I don’t even think that the elimination chamber matches are even in the same league as Hell in a Cell matches.
     
  7. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    I'd like to apologise for responding at the 11th hour, but life has been hectic of late.

    If 'Taker and Punk's feud ended, why were they wrestling again a month later? But you're right about DX and Legacy. So 2/3 HiaC matches last year didn't end their feuds. That's pretty significant when HiaC is supposed to be the ultimate blowoff match.

    So the "most vicious structure to ever grace a WWE match" which is "commonly used as the blow-off match to particularly violent encounters or feuds" is less hellacious than a last man standing match? What you've just admitted is that the Hell in a Cell is no longer the most brutal match two competitors can endure. Just like it is no longer the best cage match in WWE.

    Rikishi had a chance to win a HiaC match which also featured The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, The Rock, Steve Austin and Triple H? Now Rikishi was a good big guy, but no way he's pinning any of those guys to win the WWF championship.

    And I'll do my best to rejustify that they do indeed refute your point that "The Hell in a Cell match has literally been trusted to the biggest and best names of the WWF/E".

    Yes he was, but that doesn't make him any thing more than a midcarder. At the time I believe he was in the corporation, and therefore playing a definate second fiddle to actual main eventers.

    It did indeed make sence to include him. After all, he ran over Steve Austin "for The Rock" on HHH's orders. However, the angle did mean that Rikishi, while being involved with main eventers at the time was pretty much Hunter's hired muscle, meaning he also doesn't fit as one of WWF's best and brightest. At any point in his career.

    Yes, they are indeed future stars. However, what were they at the time of the Hell in a Cell match? Midcarders playing second fiddle to a real main eventer (not that they've graduated from the midcard at this point). So while Ted and Cody may one day be classed among the elites of 'Taker, HHH, HBK and Cena they weren't when they were in the Cell.

    So, because the buildup made it logical to include them, they had a chance to win? Forgive me if I wonder who thought that Bossman, whose career peaked with a tag team title win with Ken Shamrock was going to defeat the leader of the ministry. But I suppose building up one person from nothing to something is easier than making all 6 people appear to be valid threats.

    You have a point there. However, in spite of there being some chaff among the wheat, does the Elimination Chamber not effectively separate them, and provide a champion who has been through an immensely tough challenge to earn their prize?

    The Elimination Chamber does, admittedly not provide the rediculous, insane spots that Hell in a Cell can and does provide. But it not a match intended for that purpose. The purpose of the match is to separate the wheat from the chaff and provide a man who has thoroughly earned his championship belt. It does this very well, and by this point in time, it does its job better than Hell in a Cell does its job of providing a suitably violent way to end an intense feud.

    Yes, all of the men in that match were main eventers. However, the match itself was in the midcard, and McMahon at the time was 60 and should have been (and was) nowhere close to being in the main event of a PPV.

    Politics?

    So the 45 yearold with multiple injuries 'belonged' in a match which would supposedly shorten the lives and careers of healthy men because it was well built up to? If Hell in a Cell was as brutal as it was supposed to be, Nash wouldn't have lasted very long in it.

    So, this big omega event was one which could have been replaced with a bog standard no DQ match?

    Yes they have given great moments and matches. However, look at 'Taker's most recent outing into the Cell. A match that was wrapped up in 10 minutes, in which the Cell took virtually no part. Once this match was as great as you assert it was, but now? Not so much.

    Sorry, but in my opinion the moments of insanity provided by Mick Foley do not justify Hell in a Cell as being greater than the Elimination Chamber. It makes Mick Foley a crazy bastard, but it does not make the Cell a better enclosure match.

    This is because the Cell's insane spots are simply unsustainable and that when people were no longer willing/required to wrestle in the insanely brutal style of the Foleys of the world, the matches took a sharp decline in brutality, to the point where other matches in the feud were more brutal and the match itself could have been replaced with any other where weapons are not only encouraced, they're allowed.

    There have been no insane, innovotive spots which can never happen again in today's WWE. Thus any innovations which happen can be reused in future matches without somebody getting in trouble.

    Fair enough.

    Indeed it is.

    I disagree. There's a lot of potential for some awesome spots within the confines of the cage.

    If you like anarchy and unpredictability, then sure it will. If you like logic reason and progression, not so much. The two most recent Elimination Chambers for example perfectly set up all three main events of Wrestlemania. Cena vs Batista was set up by 'Tista taking advantage of an exhausted Cena (who entered last, and yet was weak and tired enough to be beaten afterwards in 30 seconds), Edge vs Jericho was set up by the latter winning Smackdown's chamber, and HBK vs 'Taker was set up by HBK's Superkick ending 'Taker's title reign. I like logic and progression, so for me, the Elimination Chamber is the better match.

    You said that the Chamber was designed to be the most vicious structure in all of sports entertainment, when it was designed because the existing cage hurt like hell. Mick Foley shortening his life with bumps from the top of the Cell were an unintended consiquence of adding a roof, and turning the brutality of the Cell up to eleven.

    Yeah, you've got me there. This is what happens whern you don't read Wikipedia closely enough.

    I realise that now. But still, the eventual winner, champion or not has truely earned that win and the right to walk away with the championship, that night or at Wrestlemania.

    In WWE the champion always has an advantage. In normal matches he retains ther title even if he gets DQed or counted out, in the elimination chamber he gets to go in last. And not to mention that the entry order of everybody except the starters is supposed to be random. he's bound to come out last sometimes.

    Because he's still got to come out the victor. Look at how easily Batista beat Cena who came out at number 6. And we all know how hard Cena is to beat, and yet after coming out at number 6, he was able to be decimated by Batista.

    No. I'm implying that in spite of him taking the most tainted victory in Elimination Chamber history, he had still gone through pne hell of a lot to earn it. Even though he hid in a pod to escape 'Taker, and Shawn Michaels finished him off, Jericho had still earned his win.

    And so he should, he is damn good. But look at the cercumstances of the win. He won by picking up the scraps, hiding and in general being a pussy, and yet (in kayfabe) he'd earned it by surviving the perils of the Elimination Chamber.

    The spots are mentioned not because they bellonged to be there, but because that is the match where they took place. If the insane falls had never taken place, would the Cell still be a better match?

    I agree, Mick Foley's falls, JR shouting "With god as my witness he is broken in half" surpass anything that the elimination chamber has produced. But ask yourself, aside from suicide spots what makes the Cell any better. I've asserted throughout my arguements that with WWE's pg era, the brutality of the Cell has, by neccesity been reduced. What is the Cell without wrestlers (defying the original point of the match) and risking life and limb on the roof of the cage? It is a shell of what it once was. A match no longer living up to the brutal expectations it earned in its earlier years, one that can no longer finish the feuds it was designed to blow off. In short, it is a match that once was great, but peaked in its third outing. The Chamber, as you've said has nearly unlimited potential and has become the better match for doing its job, and therefore is the better match.
     
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate - Unsex
    While Dave provided a great debate as well and was just as focused, Unsex was good at picking out flaws in regards to the Cell and backed it up with what the Chamber had in his counter attack and seemed stronger out of the two for keeping the point at hand.

    Punctuality - Dave
    Unsex took nearly 2 days before his last response, exceding the longest Dave took to reply.

    Informative - Dave
    While both were very informative, using videos and website references which puts them even. I spotted that Unsex had referred to one same moment (HBK interfering in the EC this year) and gave three different versions of how it happened in his posts and Dave called him out on this. Given I watched that match and saw the inconsistency between posts on that moment, I give it to Dave.

    Persuasion - Draw
    Really tough one here as both came with all guns blazing and gave good points, all that I seem to be thinking is exactly what this debate has produced, whenever I put one good reason to support either match, the other counters it. Because these two have exploited that and I couldn't give a solid backing for either, I'm going to split this point as a draw.

    Final Score
    Dave: 3
    Unsex: 2
     
  9. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    Clarity - Both debaters were clear. Unsex had a point from the very beginning and he stuck with it. His posts were well thought out and easy to follow. Therefore he gets the point.

    Point Unsex

    Punctuality. Dave won because Unsex took too long to make his last reply.

    Point- The Egotist.

    Informative. Both were pretty informative but I believe Unsex provided a little more information. Unsex was tough this round and was on top of his game.

    Point Unsex

    Persuasion - Going into this debate I thought the Cell was a better match. But I believe Unsex did enough to get me to lean to his side. Therefore he gets the vote. It was tough but Unsex got me to second guess my original opinion. Which was enough to win this debate for me.

    Point Unsex

    Tally:

    Unsex: 4
    Egotist: 1
     
  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Dave: Good job. The only problem with your argument was superfluousness. There's nothing wrong with opening statements, but it's best not to assume that you we, the judges, are sitting in front of you as you are giving arguments just like a barrister/lawyer would. I highly recommend that you go into the archives and look at Steamboat Ricky's posts from last year's league; his outlay was almost always perfect, and he had the best opening statements out of anyone last year.

    Remix: Good job as well. I'm giving the debate to Dave, but the reasons for this are not irremediable on your part. First, if possible, be punctual (fortunately, this is only one point, so you can do without punctuality if you're willing to forgo the point). Second, as Phoenix already mentioned, be consistent in your statements. While you did bring in some video evidence to support your case, you also did bring in an unsubstantiated claim on why the WWF/WWE switched from the "big blue" steel cage to the Hell In A Cell. Personally, I think it was your reliance on hearsay (I don't know what else to call it without a citation) that lead to your inconsistencies. But, as I already said before, this is an issue that you can easily fix by providing sources in your future debates.

    Final Score

    Dave 3 (Punctuality, Informative, Persuasion (1))

    Remix 2 (Clarity, Persuasion (1))
     
  11. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Well I was trying to judge this at work last night, and as I was trying to post, the computer took forever to load the reply page. I had shit to do after 10 minutes, so I said fuck it.

    Clarity: Both guys provided a good debate, some nice opening arguments and follow ups. I think that Unsex followed up and rebutted Dave just a little better than Dave did. However, I'll reiterate what Tdigs said. Look at Ricky's posts from last year, and also look at Franchize1990's openers. Both were fantastic.

    Point: Unsex

    Punctuality: Both men were late. Have to split this point.

    Point: Split

    Informative: What Phoenix and Tdigs said.

    Point: Dave Mizanin

    Persuasion: This point is getting split, both were able to counter each other quite well, and it made for a fun debate. Unfortunately neither was able to sway me to their side.

    Point: Split

    CH David scores this Dave Mizanin 2.5, Unsex 2.5.
     
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Unsex is the victor with 10.5 points to Dave's 9.5.
     
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