ROH - Nothing More Than A Developmental Promotion?

[Ferbian]

This is pretty much a shot in the dark, considering I don't watch a lot of Ring of Honor. However looking at the people that have moved on, moved to better things than Ring of Honor. Wouldn't it kinda seem like it's merely a stepping ground for people, a developmental territory if you will.

The list is pretty inevitable that they have had some success in Ring of Honor, and after a while, went on to do better things in another promotion. Much like OVW and FCW, you're the champion, and you're most likely having a future in WWE.

Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Evan Bourne, Kaval, Desmond Wolfe, and now Tyler Black.

All of them, with exception of Evan Bourne have been world champions in Ring of Honor, Evan Bourne was a 2 time tag team champion. So therefore they were all successful, they were all over, and ultimately, they moved on.

Only a few of them have truly gone on to become greats, and have a worthwhile career in their promotion - Samoe Joe and CM Punk, however they are all something in their current promotion, they all have something to give, and most of them a bright future ahead of them above what they have already accomplished.

So, is Ring of Honor nothing more than a platform for people to get noticed on? Nothing more than a non-contract associated developmental promotion to the big 2?

 

[Thriller Ant]

I can see where you are coming from, especially as you mentioned that you really don't watch that much Ring of Honor, but you really are looking at it from a WWE perspective. Now, I'm saying this is a bad thing, but with that perspective you only get one aspect of what makes ROH great.

So first, yes, it is an opportunity for guys to break through onto the national scene. Furthermore, most of these guys, for one reason or another, aren't guys that WWE scouts are looking for. Many would be considered too short, not cut enough, or lacking in mic skills. ROH gives them the chance to prove those assumptions wrong.

What ROH is really about, however, is wrestling. Not sports entertainment like we see in WWE or spotfests like we see in TNA. It is solid, technical mat wrestling mixed with stiff strikes and a few high-flying maneuvers. It is a style of wrestling that is almost impossible to find outside of Japan. Ring of Honor began as, and still is, a way for American wrestling fans to see a style of wrestling that has never really broken through into the mainstream in this country.

So yes, ROH can be viewed as a developmental promotion, but, as cliché as it sounds, ROH is all about the wrestling and it always will be, no matter how many WWE or TNA guys it produces.

 

[Ty Burna]

This is pretty much a shot in the dark, considering I don't watch a lot of Ring of Honor. However looking at the people that have moved on, moved to better things than Ring of Honor. Wouldn't it kinda seem like it's merely a stepping ground for people, a developmental territory if you will.

ROH is very similar to ECW back in the 90's in this regard. They're the most well known independent promotion, and have brought in a number of great talents most have not heard of and let them run with the ball. Of course the big promotions are going to keep an eye on new talent on all independent levels, but because ROH, just like ECW, is the most well known, they get the most exposure and are looked at from the big promotions the most.

The list is pretty inevitable that they have had some success in Ring of Honor, and after a while, went on to do better things in another promotion. Much like OVW and FCW, you're the champion, and you're most likely having a future in WWE.

There is a big difference however, in OVW and FCW those were straight development promotions for WWE. ROH is it's own entity and they're doing their best to make money as a true business, rather than just feeder for the bigger leagues. Most wrestlers for ROH work on an open contract where they can take other dates to make more money. ROH has been working on fixing that issue so they do not lose their top talent by actually signing them to exclusive contracts to keep the talent in house. This shows ROH is working on staying an independent promotion rather than a simple development league. Hell, let's put it this way. If you look at ROH as a development promotion, then the entire indie scene should be considered one huge development league for WWE and TNA.

Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Evan Bourne, Kaval, Desmond Wolfe, and now Tyler Black.

All of them, with exception of Evan Bourne have been world champions in Ring of Honor, Evan Bourne was a 2 time tag team champion. So therefore they were all successful, they were all over, and ultimately, they moved on.

One perspective you can look at is that ROH has a definite eye for talent based on all the names above. ROH basically gave them the field to show off more athletic wrestling rather than the more slower paced and safer WWE style. ROH was also a great place for those talents to grow as performers, and if you look back at the history of ROH, it started with a lot of veterans working with the young guys until the likes of Punk, Jimmy Rave, Low Ki, Homicide, Nigel, and Danielson got the opportunity to shine. Now with talent like that really coming into their own and ROH taking off as the top indie promotion, the WWE will come looking for new talent. And that is the ultimate issue. ROH just does not have the funds to compete with the WWE for their own talent, especially when their talent are on open contracts and taking other bookings on top of it, clearly being a wrestler is a career, it's a job. You can have all the passion in the world for the business, but if you're not making money to support yourself or your family, that passion can die out. So when Vince comes in and offers you a secure paycheck every week rather than bouncing from booking to booking, just like Danielson you go for it.

Only a few of them have truly gone on to become greats, and have a worthwhile career in their promotion - Samoe Joe and CM Punk, however they are all something in their current promotion, they all have something to give, and most of them a bright future ahead of them above what they have already accomplished.

I believe you can credit a good amount of that success to their time in ROH.

So, is Ring of Honor nothing more than a platform for people to get noticed on? Nothing more than a non-contract associated developmental promotion to the big 2?

While it may seem that it is, the answer is no, they are not. ROH does not receive any sort of reimbursement for their talent being signed away like ECW did from WWE back in the 90's. ROH does not get paid by either company to put on the shows they do, and it's why when the likes of Tyler Black get signed away, you see Cary Silkin just fuming pissed. ROH is a business, and the ultimate goal is to make money. Silkin purchased ROH probably because he was a wrestling fan, but more importantly he's a businessman and wants to see ROH turn a profit. Losing all your major talent because of open contracts definitely hurts his business, and thus why you see him starting to sign talent to exclusive contracts. With that being said, Silkin really just needs to get all talent under exclusive contracts with ROH, but I don't think he has the money to be able to make such a pitch to the entire roster. So as ROH continues on with a few big name people under exclusive contracts and most under open contracts, TNA and WWE will continue picking up those on open contracts because there is no legal way to stop them. ROH is basically just hiring contractors if you will to wrestle for them, as long as ROH keeps paying them they'll work for ROH, but can take other jobs as well. Meanwhile WWE is a major corporation who wants those contractors for them and them alone, and thus offers more money to them than they can make while working for ROH and other promotions.

Until ROH can sign every talent they have to exclusive contracts, this will continue. But they are not a development league by any means. They're an independent promotion trying to increase the exposure they have and survive as it's own wrestling company.

 

[Ferbian]

Sure, both of you don't get me wrong. I know that Ring of Honor has it's own thing going on and that they're not the general thing that WWE is looking for.

However the major champions worth looking at through WWE as well as TNA eyes have been scouted and contracted already. So from that aspect, would it not seem like more of a developmental territory?

Also I would like to say, this is nothing to derail Ring of Honor, I like what they got going on, especially the whole deal that they're giving the smaller guys somewhere to get noticed, as well as giving some of the guys that really have yet to get noticed a chance at that.

However the statistics wouldn't really lie. I can see where Ty Burna has it all going with the ECW comparison, and I would really have used that as well, had I thought of it at that moment. However ECW didn't really drag in any of the top stars, with exception of RVD and Taz, until the break down. WCW was the ones to pull those in at times, much like TNA with the smaller guys getting some noticeable time in a bigger promotion.

I know also perfectly well that Ring of Honor is a very separate thing, that focuses on just doing their thing, and WWE / TNA later on noticing them. So with a little rephrasing of the question to make it "Is Ring of Honor merely a stepping ground for bigger things" would it still not make for the actual description of Ring of Honor. The big, successful world champions have gone on to better things from Ring of Honor - A steppingstone if you will.

 

[Dhays9]

No I would not say that ROH is a "stepping stone" for many people in ROH have the talent to move on. The only reason that they would or do is that TNA and WWE can offer the gaurenteed money that ROH cannot. As we all know..............MONEY TALKS.

 

[vampireblade]

ROH is by no means a stepping stone in fact I believe that if given the chance to shine on a national level they would wipe the floor with both WWE and TNA the reason I say this is simple they focus on pure wrestling and that is what this country needs more of pure wrestling not sports entertainment and ROH provides that to it's fans

 

[Slyfox696]

at all the ROH marks in this thread.

I think Ferbian was being generous by giving it the term "developmental promotion". I call it a 2 bit flea circus. After all, you got a bunch of little people jumping around to the amazement of the idiots who actually enjoy it. Real wrestling? Get out of here with that shit, it's FAR worse than what you see in the WWE.

The fact of the matter is that, like Michael Cole always says, ROH is the small time minor leagues. And you'll get idiots in here that will say "Yeah, well look at CM Punk". Big fucking deal, that just PROVES my point. CM Punk made himself a name with indy fans, and as soon as he was good enough and had enough to impress the major leagues, the WWE called him up.

ROH, despite what both of its fans may say, is small time minor leagues. To call it a "development promotion" is about as kind as anyone can say for it, and not be called an idiot. The simple fact of the matter is that it is completely boring and obviously choreographed wrestling, which lacks realism so often (especially in the "memorable" bouts), put on by midget wrestlers who can only hope the big leagues will one day give them a chance.

 

[The Crock]

Yeah, ROH is definitely the minor leagues. They have some great talent, and some great matches but it is a stepping stone for most. Sooner or later if a ROH guy gets a call from the WWE he'll get the hell out of there in a second. I'm not saying ROH sucks, I watch it, but if I had to choose between it and the WWE I wouldn't hesitate to choose the WWE.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Ring Of Honor is a place where unknown to recognisable guys in the professional wrestling world go to gain some notoriety and learn how to wrestle in it's purest form, whilst sticking to the professional part of the business. At any time, anyone can be called up to one of the main company's and take that final step from independent to mainstream wrestling. Essentially, the company will change it's roster accordingly to fill the voids in the roster by allowing new talent to take to the plate. Sounds to me like it's a developmental promotion just like FCW... to the bigger companies.

When you look at the indy scene as a whole, ROH is one of the big companies that use smaller feds as their own developmental promotions. They wean through all of the potentials in the world and bring in the best, so when it comes time for places like the E or the A to select talent, they are getting some of the finest wrestlers that are on offer. While ROH doesn't teach the style that different promotions use, they have designed a form of wrestling that can be adapted to ANY wrestling style.

 

[TellMeWhy]

ROH is by no means a stepping stone in fact I believe that if given the chance to shine on a national level they would wipe the floor with both WWE and TNA the reason I say this is simple they focus on pure wrestling and that is what this country needs more of pure wrestling not sports entertainment and ROH provides that to it's fans

I think you're out of your mind. ROH's goal may to be on par with TNA in at least offering contracts and security but for now they are nothing more than a stepping stone for guys to get noticed to get on national tv in WWE or TNA.

And I at the fact that you feel ROH would wipe the floor with WWE & TNA. Truth is that most wrestling viewers do not want to see an all wrestling product. Proof is in TNA's The Whole F'N Show being a back to back wrestling show and drawing lower viewership than prior weeks. If ROH wants to compete, some of that wrestling will have to be put on the backburner.

Another problem with ROH is outside of wrestling, they are almost shit in everything else. In terms of promos, characters, segments, and entertainment, they just suck. Put that on national tv and they'll be drawing about the same if not less than Lucha Libre USA is doing right now.

 

[Ferbian]

ROH is by no means a stepping stone in fact I believe that if given the chance to shine on a national level they would wipe the floor with both WWE and TNA the reason I say this is simple they focus on pure wrestling and that is what this country needs more of pure wrestling not sports entertainment and ROH provides that to it's fans

Correction. Ring of Honor does have pure wrestling, we get that. But that's not where it lies anymore. There's a lot of people that just wants to watch a good storyline, great programming, stuff that WWE and TNA both delivers from time to time, with mixing in decent to great wrestling here and there with the right mixes of in-ring talent.

Ring of Honor doesn't display half the storyline abilities from what I know. They focus more on simply wrestling, and that's practically what will kill them more than anything. Simple wrestling isn't the same anymore, you need a great storyline for a good product. Also a lot of fans seems very interested in hardcore and bloody matches, something I've rarely ever seen in Ring of Honor, with exception to what I've seen in the past from WWE, as well as what I'm seeing now from TNA.

I don't see how anybody can consider Ring of Honor a great place to get noticed, and to showcase themselves, and not call it a stepping stone for the bigger leagues.

 

[Ty Burna]

Correction. Ring of Honor does have pure wrestling, we get that. But that's not where it lies anymore. There's a lot of people that just wants to watch a good storyline, great programming, stuff that WWE and TNA both delivers from time to time, with mixing in decent to great wrestling here and there with the right mixes of in-ring talent.

ROH takes a lot of influence from Japanese promotions rather than following the "sports entertainment" route. There's nothing wrong with it and you get some very good technical and high flying matches out of it because of that. ROH back in the day had some very solid storyline writing, why they've gone away from that I'm not entirely sure.

Ring of Honor doesn't display half the storyline abilities from what I know. They focus more on simply wrestling, and that's practically what will kill them more than anything. Simple wrestling isn't the same anymore, you need a great storyline for a good product. Also a lot of fans seems very interested in hardcore and bloody matches, something I've rarely ever seen in Ring of Honor, with exception to what I've seen in the past from WWE, as well as what I'm seeing now from TNA.

Eh...no it won't. ROH is doing fine right now. Most of WWE's storylines for a good portion of the time is: you have the title, I want it. Now clearly they're going for something different with Nexus but before than it was often they kept it fairly simple with a challenger wanting the title. You want hardcore matches? How about Fights Without Honor? ROH has had some of the bloodiest and brutal matches over the past few years. Hell look back when the Age of the Fall debuted. They hung Jay Briscoe from the ladder rung while Jimmy Jacobs stood underneath him and Jay's blood dropped all over him. ROH can get bloody but they often save their fights without honor to end a feud.

I don't see how anybody can consider Ring of Honor a great place to get noticed, and to showcase themselves, and not call it a stepping stone for the bigger leagues.

So basically what you're saying Ferbian, is that every single independent promotion should be looked at as a stepping stone to the big leagues? If you want to think that way sure because every wrestler's (except Steve Corino) dream is to make it to the WWE. But how many make it? Not many. On top of that the WWE is not snapping up every single talent ROH has, the like of Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, Roderick Strong, etc. While these guys may not make it to the WWE, they have made it to the top of the independent scene, and I think that's an accomplishment in its own right

 

[Ferbian]

ROH takes a lot of influence from Japanese promotions rather than following the "sports entertainment" route. There's nothing wrong with it and you get some very good technical and high flying matches out of it because of that. ROH back in the day had some very solid storyline writing, why they've gone away from that I'm not entirely sure.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it. It works in Japan, however I don't think it will work with the majority of the Americans, looking at the product that is drawing the majority of American as well as British wrestling fans, and others across the world. Ring of Honor's product is entirely different in terms of putting on great wrestling, but lacking in storyline material. Not that it's a wrong thing, but it's not gonna get them as a competition in the mainstream Ty.

Eh...no it won't. ROH is doing fine right now. Most of WWE's storylines for a good portion of the time is: you have the title, I want it. Now clearly they're going for something different with Nexus but before than it was often they kept it fairly simple with a challenger wanting the title. You want hardcore matches? How about Fights Without Honor? ROH has had some of the bloodiest and brutal matches over the past few years. Hell look back when the Age of the Fall debuted. They hung Jay Briscoe from the ladder rung while Jimmy Jacobs stood underneath him and Jay's blood dropped all over him. ROH can get bloody but they often save their fights without honor to end a feud.

I stand corrected on the hardcore aspect. Like I said with the original post, I don't watch a lot of it. But from what I had seen, I had never seen much hardcore wrestling.

The storylines at times can be dull in both promotions (TNa and WWE) however the majority of them functions, and functions to a T. They have driven very well as of late, with The Nexus, Fortune, Abyss, General Manager, Undertaker / Kane and a handful of other things of minor importance.

Ring of Honor still doesn't have that kind of product from what I know. They still doesn't have that thing that could drag a great great storyline, into a main part of the promotion. Much less in the mainstream.

So basically what you're saying Ferbian, is that every single independent promotion should be looked at as a stepping stone to the big leagues? If you want to think that way sure because every wrestler's (except Steve Corino) dream is to make it to the WWE. But how many make it? Not many. On top of that the WWE is not snapping up every single talent ROH has, the like of Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, Roderick Strong, etc. While these guys may not make it to the WWE, they have made it to the top of the independent scene, and I think that's an accomplishment in its own right

Not necessarily. But it's evidential that Ring of Honor's top talents in terms of the world title, has gone on to the bigger leagues. The top talent of developmental territories have moved on to bigger things. Some have moved to Ring of Honor, I get that, but eventually they move further up the chain.

Sure very few of them eventually makes it. But a rare amount of the developmental talent really makes it when they finally get onto WWE. I mean we have a decent sized roster in FCW currently, as well as we had in OVW, how many of them are a success today in WWE? How many of them are still employed? And how many of them are still in FCW / OVW Ty?

And of course WWE doesn't take everybody, they take of interest. But that's the same with the developmental territories, WWE takes the first guys that are of most interest, and bump them to the main roster. So of course accomplishing something in the independent scene is an accomplishment. But for Ring of Honor, accomplishing the world title, most likely means you have a future elsewhere.

 

[Ty Burna]

Of course there's nothing wrong with it. It works in Japan, however I don't think it will work with the majority of the Americans, looking at the product that is drawing the majority of American as well as British wrestling fans, and others across the world. Ring of Honor's product is entirely different in terms of putting on great wrestling, but lacking in storyline material. Not that it's a wrong thing, but it's not gonna get them as a competition in the mainstream Ty.

They won't competitive in the mainstream in general because they do not have the backing nor the funding like WWE or TNA has. That's the key thing there, they have their deal with HDNet which helps. They're not flashy and they stay more to the NWA roots when it comes to wrestling.

I stand corrected on the hardcore aspect. Like I said with the original post, I don't watch a lot of it. But from what I had seen, I had never seen much hardcore wrestling.

I would suggest doing your research on ROH then my friend. You can see plenty of video online and they have awesome deals on DVDs. As a wrestling fan you can find quite a bit in ROH that you may like, or if you're more interested in the storytelling through promos, etc., then maybe not.

The storylines at times can be dull in both promotions (TNa and WWE) however the majority of them functions, and functions to a T. They have driven very well as of late, with The Nexus, Fortune, Abyss, General Manager, Undertaker / Kane and a handful of other things of minor importance.

Like I said, for a good amount of time that's all the storylines consisted of. Now they're ramping them up with more intriguing angles. I will admit ROH lately has done jack all for storylines but between 2002-2007 or so they had some pretty good storylines going.

Ring of Honor still doesn't have that kind of product from what I know. They still doesn't have that thing that could drag a great great storyline, into a main part of the promotion. Much less in the mainstream.

They'll never have that type of product because that's not the type of promotion they are. They don't go for the glitz and glam of sports entertainment where the majority of the show is promos and segments. They're based on the fact that they are more of an old school wrestling promotion with Japanese influence. They're not trying to be sports entertainment, they're not like ECW where they're doing shit to go against the grain. It was founded as a way to showcase some awesome WRESTLING matches rather than the same thing you see in WWE or TNA where (Monday's Raw excluding) the majority of the time is spent on promos.

Not necessarily. But it's evidential that Ring of Honor's top talents in terms of the world title, has gone on to the bigger leagues. The top talent of developmental territories have moved on to bigger things. Some have moved to Ring of Honor, I get that, but eventually they move further up the chain.

And again, it's a business Ferbian, and just like any industry if you reach the top of a smaller company, eventually you may have the opportunity to jump to a larger corporation where there is more money to be made. Every wrestler wants to be known worldwide, every wrestler wants to make the big money. So in a way yes ROH can be seen as a stepping stone for some, but for most it is the top of the independent scene and that is their ceiling. So why are we calling it a stepping stone when only a few have gone on to do anything in the big leagues.

Sure very few of them eventually makes it. But a rare amount of the developmental talent really makes it when they finally get onto WWE. I mean we have a decent sized roster in FCW currently, as well as we had in OVW, how many of them are a success today in WWE? How many of them are still employed? And how many of them are still in FCW / OVW Ty?

And honestly how many of those in FCW have come from ROH? A very good portion are ones that WWE found on their own for tryouts. Often they don't even go to the independents and look for someone with a good look that they can hopefully mold into a wrestler with a respectable ability. Cena was brought in because he had a great look. He was part of one promotion for a year before going into development. That promotion just so happened to be the wrestling academy he was trained at. They also take TNA castaways into FCW as well. The point is that FCW has wrestlers from everywhere, not just ROH, but TNA, tryouts, and other various independent promotions. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but looking at FCW's current roster they have exactly one former ROH member, that being Kaval and soon will be adding Tyler Black. But he's not appeared in ROH in four years and was signed after being released from TNA. On the main roster you have Danielson and CM Punk, Evan Bourne, and Kaval being in NXT. I mean the WWE is really poaching ROH for talent.

In reality it's TNA that's had more former ROH talent, but even that's diminishing with them wanting the bigger men once again. Yet even then Doug Williams was in ROH at one time. My point is that you make it seem like a lot of talent from ROH has gone to the WWE. That's really not the case as they only have a handful of ROH alumni.

 

[Ferbian]

They won't competitive in the mainstream in general because they do not have the backing nor the funding like WWE or TNA has. That's the key thing there, they have their deal with HDNet which helps. They're not flashy and they stay more to the NWA roots when it comes to wrestling.

Of course they don't have the funds to make it work. However they could probably go mainstream just a little bit. I mean ECW didn't have the funds to really make it work, but they did didn't they?

NWA could very well also be considered (now at least) a stepping stone. However I don't believe we've seen as many of the former NWA champions (at it's current state as an independent scene world title) move onto WWE or TNA. Not in the manner that the Ring of Honor World Heavyweight Champions have move don to TNA or WWE.

I would suggest doing your research on ROH then my friend. You can see plenty of video online and they have awesome deals on DVDs. As a wrestling fan you can find quite a bit in ROH that you may like, or if you're more interested in the storytelling through promos, etc., then maybe not.

I shall consider that. I'm not totally off on storylines, however I enjoy a great storyline above a great match. I loved Triple H vs Shawn Michaels for the storyline, not the matches. The same goes for Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels.

Like I said, for a good amount of time that's all the storylines consisted of. Now they're ramping them up with more intriguing angles. I will admit ROH lately has done jack all for storylines but between 2002-2007 or so they had some pretty good storylines going.

While TNA and WWE (probably primarily WWE, I don't have much knowledge on TNA prior to late 2009 -> now) have created stellar storylines throughout the majority of the time. Sure they might not be as big as the storylines being focused on are now. But they're just fine, like Ric Flair's retirement angle, Evolution, Randy Orton vs The McMahon Family etc.

They'll never have that type of product because that's not the type of promotion they are. They don't go for the glitz and glam of sports entertainment where the majority of the show is promos and segments. They're based on the fact that they are more of an old school wrestling promotion with Japanese influence. They're not trying to be sports entertainment, they're not like ECW where they're doing shit to go against the grain. It was founded as a way to showcase some awesome WRESTLING matches rather than the same thing you see in WWE or TNA where (Monday's Raw excluding) the majority of the time is spent on promos.

And what results has the showcasing given? The talent that got properly showcased, moved on. I've already addressed the proper list. But I'm sure there's others.

And again, it's a business Ferbian, and just like any industry if you reach the top of a smaller company, eventually you may have the opportunity to jump to a larger corporation where there is more money to be made. Every wrestler wants to be known worldwide, every wrestler wants to make the big money. So in a way yes ROH can be seen as a stepping stone for some, but for most it is the top of the independent scene and that is their ceiling. So why are we calling it a stepping stone when only a few have gone on to do anything in the big leagues.

Of course. But wouldn't that automatically just verify the fact that Ring of Honor is a stepping stone, a place for people to hone their craft, and then move on? If the talent are practically just being there, until they get an obviously better offer, would you not agree that is pretty much the description of a developmental promotion?

And honestly how many of those in FCW have come from ROH? A very good portion are ones that WWE found on their own for tryouts. Often they don't even go to the independents and look for someone with a good look that they can hopefully mold into a wrestler with a respectable ability. Cena was brought in because he had a great look. He was part of one promotion for a year before going into development. That promotion just so happened to be the wrestling academy he was trained at. They also take TNA castaways into FCW as well. The point is that FCW has wrestlers from everywhere, not just ROH, but TNA, tryouts, and other various independent promotions. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but looking at FCW's current roster they have exactly one former ROH member, that being Kaval and soon will be adding Tyler Black. But he's not appeared in ROH in four years and was signed after being released from TNA. On the main roster you have Danielson and CM Punk, Evan Bourne, and Kaval being in NXT. I mean the WWE is really poaching ROH for talent.

Sure, I'm not saying in any way that Ring of Honor is the only place for talent to come in from. However the top guy of Ring of Honor, has moved on for the majority, with the exception of Xavier (John Jirus) and Takeshi Morishima (Seems to be doing AAA right now).

So of course Ring of Honor doesn't present the only solution for talent, however they have a decent history of talent moving on. Would you not agree?

And I'm not saying TNA, nor WWE is poaching Ring of Honor for talent, however evidently Ring of Honor's world champions, much like FCW and OVW's heavyweight champions have moved on. It's an awful comparison I get that, however the example is pretty much the same, is it not?

In reality it's TNA that's had more former ROH talent, but even that's diminishing with them wanting the bigger men once again. Yet even then Doug Williams was in ROH at one time. My point is that you make it seem like a lot of talent from ROH has gone to the WWE. That's really not the case as they only have a handful of ROH alumni.

And I mentioned TNA in this argument as well.

But I'm not saying a lot has moved, nor do I believe I ever did say that. But I am saying that Ring of Honor seems like a stepping stone for the successful guys to move on to bigger things.

 

[The Bearded One]

at all the ROH marks in this thread.

I think Ferbian was being generous by giving it the term "developmental promotion". I call it a 2 bit flea circus. After all, you got a bunch of little people jumping around to the amazement of the idiots who actually enjoy it. Real wrestling? Get out of here with that shit, it's FAR worse than what you see in the WWE.

The fact of the matter is that, like Michael Cole always says, ROH is the small time minor leagues. And you'll get idiots in here that will say "Yeah, well look at CM Punk". Big fucking deal, that just PROVES my point. CM Punk made himself a name with indy fans, and as soon as he was good enough and had enough to impress the major leagues, the WWE called him up.

ROH, despite what both of its fans may say, is small time minor leagues. To call it a "development promotion" is about as kind as anyone can say for it, and not be called an idiot. The simple fact of the matter is that it is completely boring and obviously choreographed wrestling, which lacks realism so often (especially in the "memorable" bouts), put on by midget wrestlers who can only hope the big leagues will one day give them a chance.

Thank you Sly for this absolutely worthless post. You could've easily just answered the question as yes or no, but instead you had to attack people who enjoy what is a very produt in my opinion. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we're "idiots" for liking it. We are just looking for other options of wrestling that isn't WWE or TNA.

Anyways, I wouldn't say ROH, or any other independent promotion, is a development promotion for the same resaon I wouldn't say indepedent record labels are development places and I'm going to use it as an analogy. A band is lucky enough to get signed by an independent label and works to write the best songs they can and to build a fanbase. They slowly get more and more fans and they start selling more and more albums. Eventually the major labels look into the band to join their label. Some bands choose to go to the major label while others do not. Some make it big while others do not. It doesn't mean that the bands who stay on the independent label, who see less success, are any worse for not making as big as other bands. They just aren't the right fit for a major label.

The same can be said about wrestlers. A wrestler hones his craft in the independent scene. He becomes a better wreslter. Eventually, he will be talented enough or popular enough for the WWE or TNA to give them a look. Of course some will go because they can get paid more money to wrestle. Others stay in the "minor leagues" because they can make a comfortable life and they may no they aren't what one of the major promotions are looking for. So while the independent companies such as ROH give the larger promotions a place to scout talent, the talent hasn't necessarily been groomed to join them. Some wrestlers are made to remain on the independent scene, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm pretty sure that didn't make as much sense as I thought it would, but whatever.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

This is pretty much a shot in the dark, considering I don't watch a lot of Ring of Honor. However looking at the people that have moved on, moved to better things than Ring of Honor. Wouldn't it kinda seem like it's merely a stepping ground for people, a developmental territory if you will.

The list is pretty inevitable that they have had some success in Ring of Honor, and after a while, went on to do better things in another promotion. Much like OVW and FCW, you're the champion, and you're most likely having a future in WWE.

Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, CM Punk, Evan Bourne, Kaval, Desmond Wolfe, and now Tyler Black.

All of them, with exception of Evan Bourne have been world champions in Ring of Honor, Evan Bourne was a 2 time tag team champion. So therefore they were all successful, they were all over, and ultimately, they moved on.

Only a few of them have truly gone on to become greats, and have a worthwhile career in their promotion - Samoe Joe and CM Punk, however they are all something in their current promotion, they all have something to give, and most of them a bright future ahead of them above what they have already accomplished.

So, is Ring of Honor nothing more than a platform for people to get noticed on? Nothing more than a non-contract associated developmental promotion to the big 2?

Yes, but you say that like it's an inherently bad thing, Ferbs, and that's not the case, I'm afraid. If anything, it's a fantastic thing to lay claim to, and certainly noteworthy on their part in being able to look toward the future stars in the industry and say "I made them", or at the very least "I helped make them", in the same vein people now look back on ECW and other defunct promotions.

Before the days of OVW and FCW and other strictly "developmental" leagues, there were in fact developmental territories like the AWA, NWA, Stampede, Mid-Atlantic, Memphis, Georgia Championship, etc. that served as eventual stepping stones to the WWF/E, who eventually emerged as a national superior to the lot of them. That doesn't mean that any of those territories were necessarily failures for it (though some were actually failures for other reasons). If anything, the work given to various wrestlers during their times in the alternative territories help to establish them as the eventual stars they became – the same goes for ROH and the rest of the independent circuit.

ROH may be a platform performance house that's obviously temporary for the would-be breakout stars, but it's a credit to that company for being able to at least start to chisel out the eventual superstar from it's "graduates". If not for their work there, they'd be much greener at the time they'd have been signed (in all likelihood), which may have hindered their potential entirely and as a result, buried a would-be superstar for his inabilities being showcased too early in his career.

I'll also note, you can soon add A-Double to that list of future successes, because he's a fantastic wrestling character, and a future champion without a doubt.

 

[Slyfox696]

Thank you Sly for this absolutely worthless post.

No problem.

You could've easily just answered the question as yes or no

Only if I wanted to give myself a Spam Infraction.

but instead you had to attack people who enjoy what is a very produt in my opinion.

I find the majority of people who enjoy it know next to nothing about what pro wrestling really means.

Most ROH fans, I've found, take the term "a little big of knowledge is a dangerous thing" to a whole new level. Many ROH fans love to thump their chest and scream about how much they know about wrestling, because they watch two mediocre guys do poor, unrealistic chain wrestling and do flippys in the ring.

I attack ROH fans because most of them ARE idiots, and deserved to be attacked. I'd rather them be like 8 year wrestling fans, people who watch the show because it entertains them. Which, after all, IS the point of pro wrestling. And while neither the 8 year old, or the common ROH fan, has any idea of what actually MAKES enjoyable wrestling, at least the 8 year old doesn't pretend to.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we're "idiots" for liking it. We are just looking for other options of wrestling that isn't WWE or TNA.

Well, here I need to make a point.

You have to distinguish between "like" and "think it's good". I didn't do a very good job of that in my last post, so let me do it here. Like anything you want. "Like" to drink drain cleaner, "like" to eat McDonalds food, "like" anything you want. Just don't drink drain cleaner and tell me it's good.

"Like" the wrestling put on by ROH...just don't tell me it's good.

Anyways, I wouldn't say ROH, or any other independent promotion, is a development promotion for the same resaon I wouldn't say indepedent record labels are development places and I'm going to use it as an analogy. A band is lucky enough to get signed by an independent label and works to write the best songs they can and to build a fanbase. They slowly get more and more fans and they start selling more and more albums. Eventually the major labels look into the band to join their label. Some bands choose to go to the major label while others do not. Some make it big while others do not. It doesn't mean that the bands who stay on the independent label, who see less success, are any worse for not making as big as other bands. They just aren't the right fit for a major label.

The same can be said about wrestlers. A wrestler hones his craft in the independent scene. He becomes a better wreslter. Eventually, he will be talented enough or popular enough for the WWE or TNA to give them a look. Of course some will go because they can get paid more money to wrestle. Others stay in the "minor leagues" because they can make a comfortable life and they may no they aren't what one of the major promotions are looking for. So while the independent companies such as ROH give the larger promotions a place to scout talent, the talent hasn't necessarily been groomed to join them. Some wrestlers are made to remain on the independent scene, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm pretty sure that didn't make as much sense as I thought it would, but whatever.

I know exactly what you're saying, but here's the major problem with it.

How many top level guys have chosen to stay in ROH? How many top level guys chose to stay in ECW (the last great minor league)? The answer is easy...NONE of them. Danielson? Gone. Punk? Gone. Joe? Gone. Austin Aries? Left and then got fired. Now apparently this Tyler Black guy...gone. Colt Cabana tried to make it in the WWE. RVD, Taz, Raven, Stevie Richards, Jerry Lynn....ALL of these guys tried their hand in the big time.


Until the day comes that a top ROH talent (who is actually desired by the big leagues) decides he wants to stay in the promotion, how can ROH be seen as anything but a development promotion?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

No, ROH is not a developmental promotion. Rather, it's a niche promotion with a much smaller (but distinct) fanbase in comparison to WWE. It's not as if any of the wrestlers in ROH don't have the technical acumen to make it in WWE. More often than not, the people that go to ROH are superb athletes who lack the charisma or the ability to express their charisma in a manner that appeals to the majority of WWE's fanbase. Given that many ROH wrestlers leave for WWE or TNA, I can see where some people would want to compare it to a minor league wrestling promotion, but the comparison is flawed; when ROH wrestlers leave for more profitable promotions, it is nothing more than a financial decision.

 

[Slyfox696]

when ROH wrestlers leave for more profitable promotions, it is nothing more than a financial decision.

Oh, I disagree completely. Is the financial part important? Sure. But so is the ability to possibly headline Wrestlemania, THE single greatest event in wrestling. So is the idea of working in front of 12,000 fans every Monday night on the most prestigious wrestling television show in the history of wrestling. So is the idea of finding out if you can truly reach the very top of your business and be one of the very best your business has ever seen. So is the idea of being remembered throughout history, something that will never happen in ROH.


The financial part is a major factor, but to say it's the only factor is just wrong. All of those other things I mentioned are also a big part of it, and those are ALL thing you can only get in the WWE. Which again shows ROH to be minor league.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Oh, I disagree completely. Is the financial part important? Sure. But so is the ability to possibly headline Wrestlemania, THE single greatest event in wrestling. So is the idea of working in front of 12,000 fans every Monday night on the most prestigious wrestling television show in the history of wrestling. So is the idea of finding out if you can truly reach the very top of your business and be one of the very best your business has ever seen. So is the idea of being remembered throughout history, something that will never happen in ROH.


The financial part is a major factor, but to say it's the only factor is just wrong. All of those other things I mentioned are also a big part of it, and those are ALL thing you can only get in the WWE. Which again shows ROH to be minor league.

I don't see this being the case at all, primarily because of how structured WWE wrestling is. It's nice to be able to excel at your craft in front of 50,000+ people, but there too many trade-offs involved with doing it for WWE. There's not a single person who has defected from ROH to WWE and not undergone a complete overhaul in their character and moveset.

One assumption you've made throughout all of your posts in here is that exposure and money are the two primary goals of any professional wrestler, and I'm not buying the exposure part. There actually are professional wrestlers out there who don't primarily view their profession as a path to fame. Just like stage actors, classic musicians, and experimental filmmakers, the wrestlers I have just now mentioned are in their profession because of just how much they love it. However, some of them are only human, and it would be not only irrational but downright stupid for them to not sacrifice some of their professional independence for a WWE paycheck that's about 5 times bigger than what they are accustomed to.

 

[Slyfox696]

There actually are professional wrestlers out there who don't primarily view their profession as a path to fame.

Then those guys are in the wrong business. Why spend 300 days killing your body for little pay and no retirement benefits? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that wrestlers who are only in it for...nothing?...are in the wrong business.

Just like stage actors, classic musicians, and experimental filmmakers, the wrestlers I have just now mentioned are in their profession because of just how much they love it.

The difference is between those types of people and pro wrestlers is the physical abuse your body takes each and every night. Pro wrestlers are lucky to be walking at age 50, and if you're not in it for money, what the hell are you going to do when you can't wrestle anymore?

However, some of them are only human, and it would be not only irrational but downright stupid for them to not sacrifice some of their professional independence for a WWE paycheck that's about 5 times bigger than what they are accustomed to.

Not to mention the opportunity to perform the craft you love in front of millions of people, to be able to considered the greatest in your craft and the opportunity to be remembered decades after your retirement.

I mean, I don't understand this thinking. You're saying loves their craft so much they'll work for peanuts their entire career, but those same guys don't want to see if they can be the best in the business? Those same guys don't want to perform the craft they love in front of millions of people? I just find that idea so hard to believe.


At the end of the day MOST wrestlers want to reach the big time, whether it's for money or "exposure" as you call it. And you can only do that by working in the big leagues...not ROH.

 

[Dhays9]

ROH has great wrestling but it won't succeed on a national level without storylines.

So your saying that ROH does not contain any storylines within their programming. Alright let's take a look.

First off, we have Kevin Steen and El Generico who are fueding and put up in double chain match with Kevin Steen & Steve Cornio (Spelling ???) vs. Colt (BOOM BOOM) Cabana & El Generico.

Next, (this is a toss up) you have the Kings of Wrestling (not going to attepmt to spell the name of Claudio & Chris Hero) vs. The World's Greatest Tag Team (Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamen) to see who is the best Tag Team in professional wrestling.

Also, you have the Embassy vs. The Dark City Fight Club, Rasheed Brown (spelling ???) and the midget lumberjack (Grizzly something i think????) who are fueding.

Finally the last one that comes to mind is Jerry Lynn feuding with Rhet Titus & Kenny King with Double A Austin Aries as their "manger" (I think they call themselves The All Night Express). Which are fighting over the fact that The All Night Express think Jerry Lynn needs to retire and "can't hang with the big dogs"

P.S. I forgot the main title picture which you have had the man of 1000 backbreakers Roderick Strong fued with the American Wolf Davey Richards over who is the real title threat.

 

[vampireblade]

I think you're out of your mind. ROH's goal may to be on par with TNA in at least offering contracts and security but for now they are nothing more than a stepping stone for guys to get noticed to get on national tv in WWE or TNA.

You are correct and incorrect on this correct in that they are on par in terms of security with TNA however you are incorrect by saying that ROH is a stepping stone for guys to get on national tv most guys are proud of where they came from and they still go back to ROH every now and then to wrestle go back to their roots so to speak if you were to go up to Samoa Joe AJ Styles Bryan Danielson CM Punk im sure they would say that they are very proud to be a product of ROH as it is one of the last promtions in the country who can produce amazing wrestling matches time and time again

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Then those guys are in the wrong business. Why spend 300 days killing your body for little pay and no retirement benefits? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that wrestlers who are only in it for...nothing?...are in the wrong business.

All right, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that ROH wrestlers work the same schedule as WWE wrestlers, but this is just not the case. ROH workers wrestle at most two nights a week, whereas most WWE workers are wrestling a minimum of three nights a week, and they wrestle four nights during a PPV week. This works out to a maximum of 104 days of wrestling a year for ROH workers, while WWE workers wrestle for 170 days out of the year (assuming that there are 14 PPVs a year).

Now, there are some ROH wrestlers that take independent bookings, but it'd be a stretch to say that they do more than 2 a month. So, that's 128 days out of the year vs. 170...that approximately one and a half month difference is quite significant.

The difference is between those types of people and pro wrestlers is the physical abuse your body takes each and every night. Pro wrestlers are lucky to be walking at age 50, and if you're not in it for money, what the hell are you going to do when you can't wrestle anymore?

All right, let's ditch those professions, as you raise a good point. Instead, let's look at professional lacrosse players and those professional athletes involved in extreme sports (e.g., motocross, skateboarding, and snowboarding). There are absolutely no profitable opportunities in professional lacrosse, while there are very, very few in extreme sports. In fact, the majority of these professional athletes are going to be making less than $20K a year. Their career choices may not be the greatest in terms of providing for their futures, but that they chose these professions proves that people DO go into physically exacting professions because of their passion for it. Why can't this be the case in professional wrestling?

Not to mention the opportunity to perform the craft you love in front of millions of people, to be able to considered the greatest in your craft and the opportunity to be remembered decades after your retirement.

And here's where we come to one of the issues that I initially raised. Would it really be that much of a pleasure wrestling in front of tens of thousands of people when you're essentially a cog in a machine? Praise WWE all you want, but it's undeniable that most workers there have EXTREMELY little latitude in how their matches go. In fact, I'm of the opinion that WWE could find business with anyone in the roles that they book. It's this loss of creative freedom that, in my opinion, would make WWE a very unattractive option were it not for the fact that they could crush any other American promotion with their coffers.

I mean, I don't understand this thinking. You're saying loves their craft so much they'll work for peanuts their entire career, but those same guys don't want to see if they can be the best in the business? Those same guys don't want to perform the craft they love in front of millions of people? I just find that idea so hard to believe.

Again, what makes you so sure that one would be performing their craft rather than merely playing a role? Here, I can use a comparison to movies: some of the greatest directors in the world have refused to work for Hollywood studios precisely because they'd be doing little more than overseeing a big-budgeted project with a momentum independent of themselves. Do you really think that WWE tailors its booking to the wrestlers they hire? For example, didn't WWE offer Samoe Joe the role of Umaga before he passed on it and it went to Eddie Fatu instead? Given that professional wrestling is a very creative endeavor, I think it would be perfectly logical for a wrestler to decline an invitation to work for WWE were it not the case that they handsomely compensate you in exchange for keeping quiet and just doing what they tell you to do.

At the end of the day MOST wrestlers want to reach the big time, whether it's for money or "exposure" as you call it. And you can only do that by working in the big leagues...not ROH.

Most wrestlers do want to reach the big leagues. Unlike you, though, I think this is nothing more than a financial decision.