Putting someone over Vs Making them look good

[Tired0FthePeople]

I understand what it means for a top wrestler to put a wrestler on a lower level 'over.' HHH put Cena over at Mania by tapping out to the STFU. There are dozens of examples of this. But what I want to clear up is that a wrestler, even a top wrestler like Cena cant make a lesser wrestler 'look good.' Not on his own.

Consider this: A brilliant worker like Daniel Bryan could MAKE CENA LOOK LIKE GOLD because of his superior wrestling ability. If the WWE booked at match between the two of them and booked it to go 'even' and scripted the right spots, would we really say that Cena made Danielson look good when all is said and done? Here is why I say NO to that question. Daniel Bryan has looked like 'gold' in matches with Kaval...AJ Styles...KENTA, Nigel McGinness(sp) and even Jamie Noble. There are several WWE superstars who have never had matches quite as good as some indie matches Ive seen and Im sure you all have seen many of the matches Im talking about. So again, when a mid card wrestler puts on a great match with a star, the star didnt make the mid card guy look like gold...if anything the star helped elevate the mid card guy to the main event scene, but he had nothing to do with how good the mid card guy actually looked in terms of wrestling ability. I know it seems like Im posing this as fact but Im actually trying to get other points of view because maybe Im not looking at it the right way.

This is not about Cena, but since his match with Dolph is fresh in our minds Im just using that for the example. Dolph could probably look just as good against 86% of the WWE roster, but since it was Cena, and the match was booked to go even, I think we are giving Cena some unfair credit on how good Dolph looked in that ring last night. Cena followed the script that was laid out for him...and he and Dolph TOGETHER made that match fantastic because they both executed the script well. I get that it did a lot for Dolph because he was in the ring with Cena but Cena didnt carry that match because he sold the offense he was scripted to take. I mean...did he?

So the bottom line question: Putting someone over because you're a top star and making them look like gold in the ring....same thing or totally different?

 

[Coco]

Your shit's fucked up, bro.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

Thanks for the contribution.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I understand what it means for a top wrestler to put a wrestler on a lower level 'over.' HHH put Cena over at Mania by tapping out to the STFU. There are dozens of examples of this. But what I want to clear up is that a wrestler, even a top wrestler like Cena cant make a lesser wrestler 'look good.' Not on his own.

Yeah, actually they can. Hell, in the aforementioned match (and the match with HBK a year later) the 2 members of DX would be credited with "making Cena look good" (slightly wrongly, because Cena is better then given credit for). Hell, Cena spent months making a green (in ring) rookie in Wade Barrett look like a legit Main Eventer.

Consider this: A brilliant worker like Daniel Bryan could MAKE CENA LOOK LIKE GOLD because of his superior wrestling ability. If the WWE booked at match between the two of them and booked it to go 'even' and scripted the right spots, would we really say that Cena made Danielson look good when all is said and done? Here is why I say NO to that question.

1. You are completely underrating Cena's ability in the ring. Just because Daniel Bryan does a thousand different holds doesn't make him any better then Cena. Cena is a brawler/powerhouse, who has the crowd eating out of the palm of his hand. Listen to the reactions between the DB/Regal match last night, and anything Cena did, it's not even fucking close, yet you're putting Daniel Bryan on Cena's level. Why?
2. Yes, we'd say Cena made Daniel Bryan look good, mainly because in your example, Cena would be making Daniel Bryan look good.

I'm bolding Daniel Bryan because you are confusing Daniel Bryan and Brian Danielson. It's the same guy, but when they get to WWE, it's a whole new ballgame.

Daniel Bryan has looked like 'gold' in matches with Kaval...AJ Styles...KENTA, Nigel McGinness(sp) and even Jamie Noble.

(KAYFABE) Who are AJ Styles, KENTA, and Nigel McGuinness? And When did he wrestle Jamie Noble or Kaval? I never saw any of those. (END KAYFABE)

Seriously though, the good matches he put on in front of 2000 people doesn't mean a damn thing in the WWE on Live TV.

There are several WWE superstars who have never had matches quite as good as some indie matches Ive seen and Im sure you all have seen many of the matches Im talking about.

This isn't the indies, so who gives a shit?

So again, when a mid card wrestler puts on a great match with a star, the star didnt make the mid card guy look like gold...if anything the star helped elevate the mid card guy to the main event scene, but he had nothing to do with how good the mid card guy actually looked in terms of wrestling ability.

Actually, the Star makes the mid-card guy look good just by letting him get ANY offense on the star.

I know it seems like Im posing this as fact but Im actually trying to get other points of view because maybe Im not looking at it the right way.

You're not.

This is not about Cena, but since his match with Dolph is fresh in our minds Im just using that for the example. Dolph could probably look just as good against 86% of the WWE roster, but since it was Cena, and the match was booked to go even, I think we are giving Cena some unfair credit on how good Dolph looked in that ring last night.

Not in the least. Cena made Dolph look like gold.

Cena followed the script that was laid out for him...and he and Dolph TOGETHER made that match fantastic because they both executed the script well.

But Cena still make Dolph look like gold.

I get that it did a lot for Dolph because he was in the ring with Cena but Cena didnt carry that match because he sold the offense he was scripted to take. I mean...did he?

First of all, it's not like the matches are scripted hold for hold. Secondly, Cena (being the top dog) likely was the head guy and called the match, and as such would get more of the credit.

So the bottom line question: Putting someone over because you're a top star and making them look like gold in the ring....same thing or totally different?

Putting someone over=laying on the mat with the other guy on top for a 3 count (or submitting to a hold applied by said other guy)
making them look good=making the opponent look better then he does against a regular opponent, regardless of outcome (win or lose).

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

Shadowstrom you put a lot into your post and I suppose you were trying to help me uderstand the question I posed, so thank you for the effort, but I have no idea what you're saying. What I mean is, I dont understand what your points mean. I dont understand what Cena having the crowd eat out of his hands has do to with anything I said or asked. I dont understand how we're going to act as if Byan isnt a better wrestler than Cena just because he's not allowed to really wrestle as himself on WWE. And I certainly dont understand the notion that the star makes the mid card guy look good by getting ANY offense on him. But honestly...thanks for taking the time to offer your input.

 

[Remix]

What I mean is, I dont understand what your points mean.

Then you're an idiot.

I dont understand what Cena having the crowd eat out of his hands has do to with anything I said or asked.

Because that's what wrestling is about. It doesn't matter if you can get a pop by using 5 moves or 5 thousand. All that matters is that you can work a crowd.

I dont understand how we're going to act as if Byan isnt a better wrestler than Cena just because he's not allowed to really wrestle as himself on WWE.

That's not the reason Cena > DBD. Danielson toning down his offence is a good thing for him. Having set moves that the crowd know and will pop for is more important than using 75 variations on an armbar, becaus that's what matters more. It doesn't matter how good you are if nobody cares.

And I certainly dont understand the notion that the star makes the mid card guy look good by getting ANY offense on him.

Because it shows that the midcarder can hang with the best in the buisness and take him to his limit. In Ziggler's case it showed him as a smart bastard who can give Cena a fight and push him to his limit, rather than a peon who's not worthy of being in the same ring.

 

[The Doctor]

Daniel Bryan could make Cena look like gold? Try the other way around.

 

[TLC]

Oh god, I'm sorry but you're starting to sound like a moron.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

This is showing me how the IWC percieves wrestling. So you're saying all that matters is who's the bigger star. It doesnt matter who's actually a better wrestler or performer, what matters most is who's the main eventer and who's the mid card. So even if AJ Styles came to WWE and wrestled a match with Cena and Vince booked the match to go even(back and forth), then Cena would make Styles look like gold. And if Kurt Angle was never in WWE, Cena would be credited with making Angle look like gold in a similar booked match because Cena is the star. Angle's in ring talents would having, or very little to do with how the match turned out or how good he looked.

OK, I got it.

 

[Coco]

Keeping up with a star makes you look good in the eyes of the people. Keeping up with a midcarder makes you look like anybody on the roster. Fin.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

Oh god, I'm sorry but you're starting to sound like a moron.

LOL sorry you feel that way. I just didnt know a wrestler makes another look like gold because of status, I thought it was to do with how good they were in the ring. But if we're saying that doesnt matter, then I understand. Ziggler looked like gold because he was in the ring with Cena. If Ziggler had the exact same match, hold for hold with someone else, he wouldnt have looked as golden as he did. I get it now.

 

[Mekanik Kommandoh]

This is showing me how the IWC percieves wrestling. So you're saying all that matters is who's the bigger star. It doesnt matter who's actually a better wrestler or performer, what matters most is who's the main eventer and who's the mid card. So even if AJ Styles came to WWE and wrestled a match with Cena and Vince booked the match to go even(back and forth), then Cena would make Styles look like gold. And if Kurt Angle was never in WWE, Cena would be credited with making Angle look like gold in a similar booked match because Cena is the star. Angle's in ring talents would having, or very little to do with how the match turned out or how good he looked.

OK, I got it.

It's pretty basic booking. They did the same thing with Daniel Bryan earlier this year in his TV matches with Jericho and Batista. Much of the WWE's audience didn't even know who Bryan was when he debuted, but putting him against two established stars and letting him get some offense in gave him some credibility with the crowd. Basically, what Coco said.

 

[Coco]

LOL sorry you feel that way. I just didnt know a wrestler makes another look like gold because of status, I thought it was to do with how good they were in the ring. But if we're saying that doesnt matter, then I understand. Ziggler looked like gold because he was in the ring with Cena. If Ziggler had the exact same match, hold for hold with someone else, he wouldnt have looked as golden as he did. I get it now.

The majority of fans see things exactly as you just described it. Welcome to the end of the thought process.

 

[Remix]

This is showing me how the IWC percieves wrestling.

Nope, that's what you're doing. THe casual fan doesn't give a fuck about how well a wrestler can wrestle. Look at Wade Barrett main eventing 5 of the last 7 PPVs and The Miz being WWE champion. both of them get far bigger pops than Daniel Bryan. The only skill a wrestler needs is the ability to work a crowd.

So you're saying all that matters is who's the bigger star.

Bigger stars are bigger for a reason.

It doesnt matter who's actually a better wrestler or performer,

You make it sound like working a crowd isn't a skill. ..which it is and that it's less important than the number of moves known by a wrestler. Which is why Charlie Haas never got over and The Miz did.

what matters most is who's the main eventer and who's the mid card.

See: There's a reason for one of them being a Main Eventer and not the other.

So even if AJ Styles came to WWE and wrestled a match with Cena and Vince booked the match to go even(back and forth), then Cena would make Styles look like gold.

Pretty much, yes. Since Cena would be the sole reason Styles/Angle would get any reaction at all. The crowd would not give a shit if Styles did his flying forearm to someone like DH Smith, but on Cena the crowd would be on their feet for the move.

And if Kurt Angle was never in WWE, Cena would be credited with making Angle look like gold in a similar booked match because Cena is the star.

See above response.

Angle's in ring talents would having, or very little to do with how the match turned out or how good he looked.

Cena an have a watchable match with a sack of coal. The opponent being able to do anything at all is icing on the cake. The match would be good, but that would be more down to Cena (and by extension the crowd) than Angle.

 

[Coco]

Bigger stars are bigger for a reason.

But not always a good one. Remember that, kids.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

Keeping up with a star makes you look good in the eyes of the people. Keeping up with a midcarder makes you look like anybody on the roster. Fin.

You know what I thought people like us, 'smarks' or whatever, people who post on wrestling forums knew better than that. I thought people here would say something more like "they allowed Dolph to showcase his talents with Cena...wow that will elevate him in the eyes of mainstream fans now. What an awesome match."
But hey...Im knew to the IWC so Im learning.

 

[Coco]

Well sure, every IWC virgin thinks it's hot on the street to talk about someone's ring skills. But Ziggler's been using those for over two years now and no doubt Cena's mere presence in that competitive match last night did more for Ziggler than anything Ziggler's ever done for himself.

One can appreciate quality ring work and at the same time understand what actually gets people to care. You need to learn to distinguish between the two.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

I think you misunderstand. I completely understand the difference. You think I think the Miz is WWE champion because he's a good wrestler? I understand what the people who pay for WWE tickets want to see. Im just not them, and the things that tickle their fancy dont always matter to me.

I didnt think the thought process here were so similar to that of the fans sitting in the stands....I guess I should have lurked longer. haha.

 

[Coco]

Im just not them, and the things that tickle their fancy dont always matter to me.

And yet you've taken the view that the taste of yourself, an admitted part of the minority, is a better thing to base the broad concept of "making someone look good" on than the perception of the masses. You're selfish and missing the bigger picture.

I'm a bigger fan of Daniel Bryan than I am of John Cena. I think Danielson's ring work is more enjoyable to watch. Doesn't mean I think Daniel Bryan has fuck all to offer John Cena in terms of looking good. I'm not a moron.

See: I didn't misunderstand anything.

 

[Slyfox696]

Consider this: A brilliant worker like Daniel Bryan could MAKE CENA LOOK LIKE GOLD because of his superior wrestling ability.

Actually, Cena is the far superior wrestler. I quit reading anything you said after this comment. If their situations were reversed, and Danielson was the 6'2" 250 pound hunk, and Cena was the 5'10" vanilla midget in need of a tan, but they did the exact same thing, you'd be praising Cena for how great he is in the ring and knocking Danielson.

Shit like yours is old. Millions of people have proven, time and again, Cena is the better worker. Anything else you said was a waste of time. Especially since I think you were trying to pass off Ziggler as a better worker than Cena.

Again, you may not have been, I didn't really read after this comment. I just saw Ziggler's name.

 

[Coco]

I don't rate Cena as a hunk. More like a beefy freak of nature with funny looking ears.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't rate Cena as a hunk. More like a beefy freak of nature with funny looking ears.

Yes, but aren't you only part gay? If you were fully gay, or even better, a woman, you'd probably think Cena a hunk. Millions of women around the world do.

 

[Coco]

I'm not even part gay. I just want to imagine that at 6'0" and 150lbs, I'm the real hunk.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not even part gay.

Oh come now, we all know better that. It's fairly common knowledge around here, you don't have to hide it.

 

[Coco]

I knew not responding to KB's frequent remarks about anal sex was far too transparent. I knew it.