Putting Bret Harts Character on Trial

[HBKperfect23]

Let me start with this: I am/was/always will be a Bret Hart mark. His early 90s stuff was instrumental in me becoming a wrestling fan. The U.S./CAN stuff from 97 was pure gold and my favorite time ever in pro wrestling. Bret put together a heel run that has never been duplicated. Bret is a genius in the ring and can tell a story like no other. Later his career he was MONEY on the mic.

That being said, his attitude sucks. He's gotten a lot better the last few years but he comes off to me as egotistical and bitter. Over his career he was no different.

So the point of this thread is to discuss Bret Hart, the man.

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.
Examples:

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to backlund because of his age. To his credit, Bret would later apologize for this and say it was an honor to do the job for bob. Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

So.....am I the only one who feels Bret should at least get a little shit for his attitude and past actions like so many others?....discuss

 

[OldSchoolWrestlingFan]

I have to agree in principle, His attitude was horrible - but his crap attitude went far beyond how he treated fellow wrestlers, he was also a pr*ck with the fans - I had the chance to meet him on several occasions (while in WCW & WWF) and Everytime I met him he acted like an ass and like he was doing you a favor by looking your way. For years I've said that he put on some pretty decent matches & was a fantastic tag team wrestler but he definitely deserves some crap for being such an ass - if he was coming up through the ranks in this day & age he would be prey for the IWC

 

[MMK]

I have to agree in principle, His attitude was horrible - but his crap attitude went far beyond how he treated fellow wrestlers, he was also a pr*ck with the fans - I had the chance to meet him on several occasions (while in WCW & WWF) and Everytime I met him he acted like an ass and like he was doing you a favor by looking your way. For years I've said that he put on some pretty decent matches & was a fantastic tag team wrestler but he definitely deserves some crap for being such an ass - if he was coming up through the ranks in this day & age he would be prey for the IWC

How many times did you meet him? I met him and Owen on different occassions and both exceeded my expectations. I was 11 at the time. Even got a picture taken with the title over my shoulder. No complaints.

 

[The Brain]

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.

Actually I think Bret is regularly criticized here. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Bret has more critics than fans on this forum.

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

To be fair, The Harts were clearly the best choice at the time. Did he mention any other options in his shoot? I doubt the office wanted to go in a different direction and were talked out of it.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

I'd like to know exactly what Bret said about this because I've never bought this story. It seems so obvious to me what happened. Roddy Piper was about to retire. He never held a title in the WWF. He was going to get a title reign before he went out so they took the title off Bret so Piper could beat Mountie. To put Piper in position to challenge Mountie he came out to save Bret when Bret was vulnerable. By the time Bret is ready to compete again Piper is champ so he naturally wants a rematch. This sets up the classic between Bret and Piper at WM8. Piper gets a title reign and Bret gets the belt back at mania. Mountie was the definition of transition champion.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

I don't know how much truth to this, but here's what I heard. Originally SummerSlam was going to be in Washington DC and it was going to be Bret vs. HBK. Business in the states was down in 92 but WWF was doing well in Europe so the event was moved to England. Once that change happened Bulldog was the obvious choice. I don't think it was "screw HBK I want my brother in law to have the belt." I think it was more "If we want to sell out Wembley Stadium let's put the belt on Davey." Just a logical choice.

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Again, I don't think this was personal against Shawn. Business was floundering while Diesel was champion and Bret was feuding with guys like Hakushi, Yankem, and Pierre. Bret just felt he deserved the top spot again and didn't like being used as the guy to get the belt to HBK. Egotistical? Sure, but not personal.

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

I've never defended Bret when it comes to Montreal but when HBK flat out said to Bret's face he would never return the favor for WM12 I can't blame Bret too much for not wanting to lose to Shawn again.

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

Bret has said it himself that he didn't have any passion. WCW was a train wreck and had no idea what they were doing. Bret was used to a very structured environment and WCW had no structure whatsoever. They couldn't commit to anything. Montreal took a lot of passion away from Bret and WCW's lack of direction sucked him dry.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

Bret doesn't feel like he was wrong and honestly until November 9, 1997 I'm not sure he was. Shawn was the real prick. While I still think he should have swallowed his pride and lost to Shawn in Montreal I don't blame him for feeling the way he does. Bret is a very proud guy. Wrestling was his whole life. He was born into the business. Not only was it a family business but he was the ultimate workhorse for Vince for 14 years. He feels his entire life's work was tarnished. Even though it's been nearly 20 years I can see it being hard to forgive. To his credit Bret finally did forgive, but he will never forget.

 

[MMK]

Let me start with this: I am/was/always will be a Bret Hart mark. His early 90s stuff was instrumental in me becoming a wrestling fan. The U.S./CAN stuff from 97 was pure gold and my favorite time ever in pro wrestling. Bret put together a heel run that has never been duplicated. Bret is a genius in the ring and can tell a story like no other. Later his career he was MONEY on the mic.

That being said, his attitude sucks. He's gotten a lot better the last few years but he comes off to me as egotistical and bitter. Over his career he was no different.

So the point of this thread is to discuss Bret Hart, the man.

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.
Examples:

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to backlund because of his age. To his credit, Bret would later apologize for this and say it was an honor to do the job for bob. Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

So.....am I the only one who feels Bret should at least get a little shit for his attitude and past actions like so many others?....discuss

If he's on trial he'll need a defense attorney and since I don't see Clarence Mason around, i'll take the job

First I don't think he does get a pass. He's criticized for his attitude all the time and is the subject of meme after meme.

The Bulldogs were not Bret's Kliq. Dynamite and Davey were on an island to themselves in the 80's. Pretty much everyone hated them. Bret has stated many times that Dynamite was a great wrestler but a lousy person, and he has even called Davey Boy immature and that he was given every opportunity to be a top guy and constantly found a way to screw it up.

The Mountie was a comedy act. Bret should never lose clean to a guy like The Mountie. I see nothing wrong with that. And I believe the only reason for it was so Piper could hold the IC title once in his career by beating the Mountie and setting up the Piper/Bret match at Mania.

I don't think it was Bret's decision to face Bulldog instead of Shawn. If he claims it was he's lying. Vince McMahon has final say in who faces who and more importantly what location the event is held at. If Vince felt Wembley was the better option than Washington DC then that's the reason Bulldog won the title that night instead of Shawn. No way you're going to have anyone other than Davey win in Wembley.

Ill have to go back and watch the shoot interview again, but I have a hard time believing Bret did not want to drop the belt to Shawn at Mania. I would say he, like a lot of guys at that time, perhaps felt underappreciated because the Kliq had so much say backstage and essentially had the show revolving around them for the better part of 2 years, but I dont think Bret ever refused to drop the title.

I've seen other interviews where Bret has listed guy after guy who he was willing to drop the belt to at Survivor Series. He has said all along that even amidst all their drama he approached Shawn and said he was the one guy he wanted to face on his last match and that he wanted to drop the belt to him, but Shawn retorted that if roles were reversed he wouldnt do the same. After that Bret changed his mind and thats what caused all the last minute problems.

As for Bret not taking responsibility for their real life feud, I honestly don't think he has to. If he did it would be a false equivalency. Shawn was an a-hole. He himself admits that. And his story for what happened leading up to Montreal has changed numerous times over the years and he is even on film in Brets documentary lying about his involvement. Why should Bret take half the blame when he really doesnt have to?

Brets definitely arrogant at times and an egomaniac. But he's a pro wrestler. Find one of them that isn't. Flair, Hulk, Shawn, go down the list and you wont find many that aren't. At least not at the main event level.

Think of it this way, think about how big of a jerk Shawn Michaels was despite the fact that he got everything he wanted. Now imagine he's the one who get's screwed over and then a year later watches the same company that screwed him over accidentally kill his brother. He'd be pissed too. I feel Bret's entitled to be just a little bit bitter. If that was Warrior, Shawn, CM Punk or FLair or any of the other hothead wrestlers over the years, you'd never hear the end of it. For the most part I think Bret's been pretty calm and professional over the years considering everything that happened. I've seen and heard wrestlers flip out and go on tirades for years over far less.

 

[OldSchoolWrestlingFan]

How many times did you meet him? I met him and Owen on different occassions and both exceeded my expectations. I was 11 at the time. Even got a picture taken with the title over my shoulder. No complaints.

Counting his time in WWF & WCW about 5-6 times - Owen was always great and very friendly but Everytime I met Bret he never smiled or acted personable - I'm not saying that he had to kiss our ass or anything, I just think he could have atleast smiled or something, onetime he was with Anvil & he looked at him and said at least act like you want to be here - I am not saying he was always that way but he was Everytime I experienced him

 

[FromGlasgow]

Ive met him a couple of times at autograph signings and he always seemed quite pleasant enough and answered my couple of questions I had each time, Never heard anyone else claim he had a bad attitude. I always thought most major stars were protective of their position and hessitant to put anyone else over its happened for years nothing new.

 

[Goldie]

I'm not arguing the other points... but here:

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

As Summerslam was moved to London why not put the IC title on Davey? to this day 1992 remains the hottest crowd and biggest venue for a Summerslam event.
Would the event have been as memorable if Shawn went over Bret in a midcard match and Bulldog took on some other midcarder? It was Bret vs Davey that made that Summerslam.

If the venue was Washington- Bret would have complied with the original plans. At that point there were no personal issues between Bret and Shawn.

Having the event in London - put Bulldog in the frame and a crowd pleasing finish to the show.
Shawn went over Bulldog 2 months later anyway... this simply delayed Shawn getting the belt slightly.
The outcome worked for all involved... and it remains an integral part of Summerslam history.

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

Wasn't it just Shawn he wouldn't put over? Bret was willing to put over Austin.... or even as low down the roster as Lombardi... he was adamant he would not put Shawn (and only Shawn) over.
I think this is referenced in the Meltzer account of the Screwjob.

Everything else.... yes Bret did have an ego in a business full of egos... and some of it is justified.
I wouldn't quite compare the Harts to the Kliqs though..... many top guys speak up for their friends- this doesn't make Bret too different in that sense.
However the Kliq were widely hated by the lockeroom for the way they treated and looked down on others..... when has anyone said that about the likes of Owen and Davey?.... even Bret didn't show disrespect to jobbers.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Just to clarify a few things:

The Mountie: Bret never flat out refused to job to Mountie. He just made things difficult. I like the way everything played out, what I didn't like was Brets attitude towards the situation. Pretty much that Mountie didn't deserve the 2 day run.

Maybe I'm wrong here. The forum seems to look at Mountie as just a comedy act. I always liked Jacques. The Mountie character was over the top but I dug it at the time. Maybe they should have had someone else do the transition.

Webley 92: Yes Brain, I heard the same thing about DC. As soon as they considered Webley, Bret went to Vince with the DaveyBoy idea. I know he wasn't trying to screw over Shawn. It was just a generally good idea. It ended up being my all time favorite match and we still got a good Bret/Shawn match at survivor series. The execution of Brets awesome idea isn't my issue. My thing is the kliq had good ideas too but when they are paired together they get heat for politicking. I just think it should be an even playing field.

Shawn 96: again never flat out refused to put Shawn over. He just made things difficult. Nash tells a story of even Taker getting hot at Bret for not taking Nash's finish at IYH before WM12 (Bret wasn't going to get beat, taker was still going to interfer for a DQ). I think Bret was looking out for himself over what's best for everyone.

Montreal I don't blame him for not liking putting Shawn over. I don't blame him one bit. I do think he should have done it for Vince at a time where Vince needed him to do the job. I really do think Montreal came down to Bret really wanting to forfeit the title on his way out.

Again. I'm a Bret guy. I think he just needs to get a little shit like the kliq gets shit.

 

[Wald]

Didn't you do this thread before? I seem to remember someone posting this exact same thing and everyone tearing it to pieces maybe a year ago.

In other words, hi Shawn!

 

[Mustang Sally]

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal

Like you, I was always a fan of Bret's in-ring performance, if not his politics. I didn't know previously about the subjects of which you wrote, including The Bulldogs, Mountie and Backlund.....but each involves things Bret refused to do.....or demanded be done differently. I just got finished posting in a General Wrestling subject about Creative Control, and here it arises again.

My problem concerns how Bret (apparently) used the privilege. If Mick Foley is to be believed in his autobiography, Bret didn't want to lose his title (before departing for WCW) to Shawn Michaels, but would agree to lose to Steve Austin or Foley........and caused me to seriously question Bret's CC clause, with the notion that one performer, who's leaving the company, could be responsible for deciding who will next wear the world title in WWE. Ridiculous.

The other examples you cite add icing to a cake that long ago went stale.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Didn't you do this thread before? I seem to remember someone posting this exact same thing and everyone tearing it to pieces maybe a year ago.

In other words, hi Shawn!

Hi Mark!

No haven't done this thread before. If you read the comments most agree with (at the very least) pieces of the post.

You can admit some wrong In Bret. I know you can do it.....go ahead, take the pink shades off. You seem to just ignore the beginning when I praise Bret. I can look at his career objectively. Why don't you try and give it a shot.

 

[Wald]

Bret has done loads wrong in his career and life but not being sure about dropping the title to the Mountie (whilst still dropping it), pointing out that Bulldog should be in the main event of a London PPV, not being sure about dropping the title to a guy a decade retired (whilst still dropping it) and not wanting to lose to Shawn Michaels in Canada isn't any of them.

 

[HBKperfect23]

The Mountie thing I have taken back because everyone seems to view Mountie strictly as a comedy act. Not something I agree with but if the majority feels that way, I can understand.

Webley: fantastic idea and exectuion by Bret. But how is this different from The Kliq throwing out good ideas about matches with each other?

Montreal has been argued to death. We are just never going to see each other's point on this so I'm not going to argue it anymore.

My whole is just give Bret a little shit for having a huge ego and being difficult, at times, backstage.

 

[Wald]

Every wrestler who has ever made it to the top has a huge ego and has turned down matches or used their stroke in some way. Rock had to get his win back on Brock after Summerslam 2002 (check Lesnar's book for details), Austin refused to work a programme with Jarrett or drop the title to Triple H at Summerslam 99, HBK didn't want to drop the title to Bret, Bret didn't want to drop the title to HBK, Hogan only wanted to work with his guys and wouldn't drop the title to Piper, it goes on and on.

No-one really disputes any of that and most wrestlers accept it as a fact of life. The difference with the Kliq is that almost everyone in the WWF locker room at the time says they were the most obnoxious guys to be around and tried to use their stroke more than anyone, even more than Hogan.

 

[The Brain]

The Mountie thing I have taken back because everyone seems to view Mountie strictly as a comedy act. Not something I agree with but if the majority feels that way, I can understand.

I didn't really think of Mountie as a comedy character but he just wasn't going to get the IC title at that time. I don't know it for a fact but like I said before it just seemed obvious the switch was done to give Piper a title reign before he retired. My guess is had Piper not been about to retire Bret would have simply kept the belt and been successful in his feud with Mountie. Had WWF wanted to have Mountie as champ why take the belt off him after two days?

Webley: fantastic idea and exectuion by Bret. But how is this different from The Kliq throwing out good ideas about matches with each other?

I think it's different because the Clique supposedly wanted to work with each other all the time simply because they were buddies and wanted the top money spots to themselves. It is thought they would rather work together in a half filled arena than work with someone outside the Clique in a sell out. I don't know that there's any real truth to that but that's the reputation they had. In Bret's case he was trying to turn a big pay day into a bigger one which would benefit everyone (except maybe Shawn). It's not like he said he didn't want to work with Shawn. He just knew working with Davey was the better option creatively and financially.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Wasn't there a contract issue with Brett when he lost to The Mountie in 1992, the possibility he might leave ? Maybe Im wrong on that....

With EVERYTHING else here's the thing.....Wrestlers are Independent Contractors who have very little say over how they are presented to the audience YET need to be presented in a certain way to "get over" which translates into better money. It is a very tricky situation, which is way you often hear wrestlers say "You want the next guy to do good....but not THAT GOOD" - When he does THAT GOOD it means there is less big money for you.

With so much at stake in how they are presented to the audience and for many years no guaranteed contracts you cant blame a guy for trying to protect himself. Also, I think personal relationships (IE do I trust this guy will be straight with me) plays a role.

In Brett's case..... Brett was chosen as champ because Ultimate Warrior basically fell on his face. WWE whad spent almost all of the summer of 92 setting up Flair-Warrior and was already running the feud when Warrrior injured Flair. If WWE had been sold on Warrior they would have given him the belt earlier since Flair was injured and needed time off (instead of building towards S-Series which seemed like the plan). Instead, with WWE very uneasy over Warrior and wanting a champion who could compete today they went to Hart. Flair wrestled injured but put him over clean and put him over several times after he returned from his injury hiatus, including some of the first ever 60 minute Iron man Matches ever in WWE.


Does Hulk Hogan help out Hart when it's clear he is now the top full time fan favorite and Hogan is no longer planning to wrestle full time....NO, we've heard conflicting stories through the years but conventional wisdom is the whole W-Mania 9 title situation was to get Hogan-Brett in the ring and have Hogan lose clean to give Brett a huge rub....and he refused. Instead he lost a clear screw job un clean loss to Yokozuna, presumably to clear the path for his return and rematch (but he went to WCW a year later instead).

HBK has admitted several times as his star grew in the company after his singles push he became harder to work with. At the same time Brett is working his butt off, wrestling great matches regardless of opponent, and WWE seemingly is constantly looking for his replacement. Despite his popularity with fans as business levels off WWE rewards Hart's work by trying to replace him long term with Yokozuna, toys with Lex Luger, then replaces him with Kevin Nash. Like Flair in WCW it seems WWE always came back to Hart in these years because he was guaranteed money, and a great worker, but it always seemed WWE was looking for something better before coming back home, much like John Cena today.

As HBK's star grew more there personal differences were exasperated and WWE started siding ever so slightly with Michaels. Again, imagine how you would feel if you're Hart and the company keeps protecting HBK and building him to be champ at your expense as we move into the 96-97 range, plus asking Brett to play heel (even though he admittedly much prefers being a hero). Was Brett maybe trying to protect himself during this time....maybe he was, but he was responding to what others around him were doing and more importantly, without guaranteed contracts, treated as independent contractors, much of their earning potential reliant on how creative portrays them on TV, Im not sure I blame him, at least Im sympathetic.

And yes, Brett had a sweetheart deal with his last big deal in WWE, complete with a level of "Creative Control" un heard of for today's stars. And WWE basically told Brett they wouldn't honor it and advised him up front to search for a new home, WCW or elsewhere. Can anyone wonder why this guy was worried and protective ?

In WCW Brett didn't have much stroke....Hogan & Nash had the stroke, and Hogan had no interest in legitimizing Hart's post Hogan era of success by sharing the ring with him in a major match let alone putting him over. So Hart languished in the mid card trading wins & losses with the likes of Luger & Sting and rarely seeing a legit main event. Hogan never gave Randy Savage a single win over him by pinfall, not one in 15 years of fueding, he did give Flair multiple wins (none clean, though one was for a World Title) and did give Piper one big one (non title of course).....If he treated THOSE GUYS that way how on earth can anyone be surprised he had no interest in working with Hart...and how can anyone blame Hart for being disinterested or dispassionate about his time in WCW under such conditions ?

Are there points where maybe Brett could have given an opponent more....perhaps, in fact given the length of his career I would bet there were

Was Brett protective of his character....perhaps, but given how some acted around & with him and the very nature of the business Im not sure I blame him, it's up to management to handle those things for the best of the company and the team....

Now I do get criticism of Hart's post career interviews and commentary. However, right or wrong, many of his seemingly "bitter" and "nasty" comments about certain co workers have eased or ceased altogether in recent years. He has made a level of peace with HBK over Montreal and their mid 90s backstage issues and admits to HBK's skill in the ring and quality as an adversary (which he was loathe to do for many years). He is more complimentary than not towards Vince McMahon in general and in reference to his own career (which initially after he retired he was not). He used to be full of criticism and scorn for Ric Flair but now largely praises him for his talent, work ethic, dedication, and has openly stated that he enjoyed wrestling him in WWE particularly on the European Tour in 1992 and in their handful of bouts in WCW, as they seemingly have buried the hatchet over whatever differences they had in the past....really about the only people he continues to harbor major resentment towards are Bischoff & Hogan.

I personally believe much of Hart's prior vitriol was inspired in part by his nasty departure from WWE and the fact injuries derailed his late career, stopping him from having the late career renaissance that both a new and renewed HBK and envigorated Flair got in the 2000s WWE or Hogan as well. Maybe such bitterness wasn't correct but it was understandable if that is how he felt. As time has passed and he has made peace with HBK & Vince and had the time to hash things out with Flair he has changed much of his tune regarding them. Somehow he hasn't changed on Bischoff or Hogan for whatever reason but.....

Not everyone can get along. Now I get that some guys with real personal issues have famously buried the hatchet (Flair & Dusty had a horrible break up to their friendship and working relationship in 1988 but eventually mended fences, Hogan tried to make peace with Ultimate Warrior when he was enshrined in the HOF after YEARS of very public battles, despite their recent issue Steve Austin paid public tribute to Roddy Piper, and numerous other stories). Maybe Hart was able to make peace with the others because he was able to interact face to face with them and hash things out and he's never had that option with Hogan, maybe Hogan doesn't want that option with him, and quite honestly I don't care, Hogan's the biggest star in the history of the industry and he & Hart have issues that doesn't change anything for me. Hogan is still the #1 star and I have still have tremendous respect for Hart's contributions.

To sum up.....yes I believe there were times Hart maybe worried a bit too much about himself than he did the product in general, although given some of the others and their behavior that he worked with I don't blame, especially when you factor in the non guaranteed money, independent contractor status, and how much of your earning potential relies on how creative portrays you. Given the nasty way he left WWE and the sudden end of his career I give him a pass on some of his hyper vitriolic comments over the years, at least since he has walked a lot of that back in more recent times.

Finally, I think how a performer treats their fans is very important, and Ive never heard an unkind story about Hart having bad interactions with fans. You can say all you want about Hogan's politics but he has one of the best track records of all time for Make A Wish Foundation work (which performers do not get paid for). Despite his reputation as a womanizer and hard partier Ric Flair is well known for signing autographs, posing for pictures, and being very accessible to fans when in public (Ive met him twice and found him extremely accommodating). No one guy is perfect and the very nature of the industry makes it hard to "be nice' all the time but I have great respect for anyone who manages to make it to the top AND has a good rep for fan interactions.

 

[rge2010]

I think the reason Bret Hart is never called out for politicking and refusing to put people over is because it didn't really happen.

Bret Hart is one of the most respected men in the business and I do not believe I have ever really heard anyone say a bad word about him? Sure, Vince, Shane, Hunter and HBK had a few choice words after Montreal but that is a separate issue in itself. And yes, Bret had a few spats with Hogan and Flair over the years too.

Bret Hart was a locker room leader and his colleagues looked up to him and went to him for advice. The Rock, Mick Foley, Kane and Steve Austin have had nothing but nice things to say about him and how he HELPED them develop their careers.

Hart has become very bitter about things the last decade and really does take himself too seriously but I think when he was involved in the business he was just fine.

 

[HBKperfect23]

I didn't really think of Mountie as a comedy character but he just wasn't going to get the IC title at that time. I don't know it for a fact but like I said before it just seemed obvious the switch was done to give Piper a title reign before he retired. My guess is had Piper not been about to retire Bret would have simply kept the belt and been successful in his feud with Mountie. Had WWF wanted to have Mountie as champ why take the belt off him after two days?



I think it's different because the Clique supposedly wanted to work with each other all the time simply because they were buddies and wanted the top money spots to themselves. It is thought they would rather work together in a half filled arena than work with someone outside the Clique in a sell out. I don't know that there's any real truth to that but that's the reputation they had. In Bret's case he was trying to turn a big pay day into a bigger one which would benefit everyone (except maybe Shawn). It's not like he said he didn't want to work with Shawn. He just knew working with Davey was the better option creatively and financially.

Mounties two day reign was fine. I don't expect him to get a decent run with the early 90s champions being Perfect, Bret, Shawn with even Piper/Bulldog only getting brief runs. I'm more of a fan of him in tag team wrestling anyway. I find his two day reign harmless.

I will also say, Bret really rubbed me the wrong way in his 2nd shoot which was done in the year 2000. This is where I credit the source for a lot of my problems with Bret the man. Looking back I can understand why he isn't in the highest of spirits at that time. Nobody really would be.

This thread gave more insight from his point of view and how he is judged by the IWC. I don't think he should be hated, I just don't think he should get a complete pass for his bad attitude at times (which it seemed he did get before I read the responses here). It looks like most agree and give him a little flack for it, which was really the point of the post.

 

[Jonyboyuk2]

I am a huge Bret Hart supporter.
I disagree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. Bret has suffered a lot for his trade. He has lost brothers to tragic circumstances; and he spent most of his 20s,30s and 40s travelling around the world and getting beaten up everynight away from his children. And travelling around the world when doing that job is not always that glamourous as his book will tell you if you read it.

I do not see why Bret deserves shit. He was a brilliant wrestler in the ring and always took care of his opponents safety. He was well respected in the locker room by everyone and was always there for the lower card wrestlers.

By the time he got to WCW - no wonder he was bitter and upset. I read Brets book and all the way up to his re-signing with WWF in 1996, he seemed to really enjoy and love his career and he did love being with the New Hart Foundation faction in 1997. The parts after that are seriously depressing and the way Bret spoke about it in his book makes you feel all the sadness he had. And who can blame him?

Bret Hart was an excellent wrestler and a great hero to millions and a great man.

If you actually look at what the Clique did then you would know why they get shit and why Bret doesn't.

I remember HBK actually called his fans "the Kliq" to mock the locker room with his power in the WWF (please note- I class HBK as the best wrestler ever to wrestle in WWF because of his long career). Nash was unprofessional to many and Scott Hall's backstage attitude in the past is well known to anyone who is a wrestling fan.
Even X-Pac was terrible in the back, especially in 2001.

Bret was never a difficult guy for any promotor to deal with. He was always loyal and stood by his friends. Many of them friends he has seen them die years before they were meant to be taken.

If you cant see why Bret was very sad and bitter at times in the past then you are a moron.

 

[HBKperfect23]

I am a huge Bret Hart supporter.
I disagree with a lot of what has been said in this thread. Bret has suffered a lot for his trade. He has lost brothers to tragic circumstances; and he spent most of his 20s,30s and 40s travelling around the world and getting beaten up everynight away from his children. And travelling around the world when doing that job is not always that glamourous as his book will tell you if you read it.

I do not see why Bret deserves shit. He was a brilliant wrestler in the ring and always took care of his opponents safety. He was well respected in the locker room by everyone and was always there for the lower card wrestlers.

By the time he got to WCW - no wonder he was bitter and upset. I read Brets book and all the way up to his re-signing with WWF in 1996, he seemed to really enjoy and love his career and he did love being with the New Hart Foundation faction in 1997. The parts after that are seriously depressing and the way Bret spoke about it in his book makes you feel all the sadness he had. And who can blame him?

Bret Hart was an excellent wrestler and a great hero to millions and a great man.

If you actually look at what the Clique did then you would know why they get shit and why Bret doesn't.

I remember HBK actually called his fans "the Kliq" to mock the locker room with his power in the WWF (please note- I class HBK as the best wrestler ever to wrestle in WWF because of his long career). Nash was unprofessional to many and Scott Hall's backstage attitude in the past is well known to anyone who is a wrestling fan.
Even X-Pac was terrible in the back, especially in 2001.

Bret was never a difficult guy for any promotor to deal with. He was always loyal and stood by his friends. Many of them friends he has seen them die years before they were meant to be taken.

If you cant see why Bret was very sad and bitter at times in the past then you are a moron.

Posts like this were my reason for starting the thread. Saint Bret just can do no wrong.

I like Bret. He's one of the best ever. But he was difficult at times. Not saying he's a bad guy, just that he's been difficult at times. Do I feel bad about all the trajedy that he's indored with his stroke and his brothers untimely death? Of course.

He's enjoyed playing the victim with his departure from WWF and he slams just about everyone. Read his book again, that alone should show you he is no saint. Again, he's not a horrible guy but he isnt flawless like you make him out to be.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Let me start with this: I am/was/always will be a Bret Hart mark. His early 90s stuff was instrumental in me becoming a wrestling fan. The U.S./CAN stuff from 97 was pure gold and my favorite time ever in pro wrestling. Bret put together a heel run that has never been duplicated. Bret is a genius in the ring and can tell a story like no other. Later his career he was MONEY on the mic.

That being said, his attitude sucks. He's gotten a lot better the last few years but he comes off to me as egotistical and bitter. Over his career he was no different.

The worlds biggest Bret Hart fan has always been Bret Hart. He's definitely egotistical, although I wouldn't say he's anywhere near as bitter as he used to be... but he did have reason to be.

Over his career though? I don't know about that. He didn't really have a lot to be bitter about before Montreal, and despite the ego, he was widely considered one of the most respected guys in the locker room.

So the point of this thread is to discuss Bret Hart, the man.

I'm sick of him always getting a pass for his attitude and for never getting called out for not putting people over.

I don't know if that's even the case. Maybe in comparison to Michaels, but then again, during their feud you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in wrestling history who had a worse attitude than HBK. Since the two are so linked together, you're always going to get that "well HBK was worse" response.

Examples:

Bulldogs will only drop the belts to the Harts because they feel as tho the Hart deserve it most. Sounds a little kliq-ish to me. Granted Bret is not the one politicking but his "kliq" is.
Source: Bret shoot 2, he sounds proud of this.

Not really Bret's issue, just something he benefited from. That's just the way that Dynamite presented it to Bret and Anvil too though. Doesn't necessarily mean that's the truth, since with Dynamite's injury, it's not like the Bulldogs were in any position to be making demands on who they would or wouldn't drop the titles to.

It was his first major title though, and one of the first major moments of his career... and a source of validation from someone who was considered to be one of the best workers in the world (Dynamite Kid). Of course he's going to be proud of that. Dynamite didn't say they'd only drop to the Hart's because they were friends and family. He said it was because they were the hardest working team in the territory and they deserved it the most.

Bret Won't drop the belt to Mountie because he isn't worthy. They do the fever angle. Bret heroically stumbles to the ring despite a 104 degree fever vomits through the match and finally takes the pin.
Source: Bret admits not wanting to put over Mountie in his shoot. See highlights of the match if they are still out there.

I'd have to go back and read his book again, but I don't remember him having any real problem with dropping to the Mountie, since he was very aware of the overall plan and reason for it (the WM match with Piper, which he was super excited for). I do remember him mentioning the sting of losing was very real despite how he knew everything was going to turn out... but that's Bret. He also didn't mind getting time off to spend with his family during a major PPV, although he did hate missing out on the Rumble payday.

As for the finish and the 104 degree fever? That's just booking to keep Hart looking credible and strong in order to make the Piper match work. Just like how in the Rumble, they teased the story that Piper might actually win and get both the IC and WWF titles in the same night. The angle was done beautifully.

Bret "politics" to not drop the IC title to Shawn at summerslam 92 and drops it, instead to family member Davey Boy. Great idea? Sure is ....... But the Kliq had great ideas about working matches with each other too....but there ideas are "politicking" source: Bret shoot 2 and Bret timeline 92

I don't know that Bret really had any control over the location of Summerslam... and once they settled on doing it at Wembly, Bulldog was the obvious choice. Bulldog versus Hitman was a main event in that location, even with the secondary title being the one on the line. Hitman versus HBK for the IC title? Was never a PPV headlining main event.

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to backlund because of his age. To his credit, Bret would later apologize for this and say it was an honor to do the job for bob. Source: Bret shoot 2

Bret didn't initially like the idea of Backlund going over because of Bob's age, the entire New Generation advertising campaign that made a 50 year old Backlund an illogical champion, and the fact that they were running those Huckster and Nacho Man skits at the time, and it seemed hypocritical to get a guy older than either Hogan or Savage to be the champion of the New Generation. Plus you can be sure it had a bit to do with him not enjoying the idea of dropping the title, and getting less status and money as a result. He quickly changed his mind on that though because he realized that Backlund had earned it, and he wasn't being fair himself over it all. You can be sure that mid 90's HBK wouldn't have had a realization like that.

Bret doesn't want to drop the title to Michaels at WM12 because he had great matches leading up to mania and felt he was "just there to hand Shawn the belt" .......whatever that means.
Source: Bret shoot 2

Again going by Bret's book... he had misgivings about Shawn being a good champion, and being a good locker room leader like the champion back then was supposed to be... but he never had a problem with dropping the belt to Shawn, and in the end was happy to do it. Partly because he wanted to see Shawn fall flat on his face since he was taking time off anyways, but that's the egotistical Bret coming out.

He did feel that he was just a placeholder to pass the title on to Shawn, and he was. It was a spot he wasn't used to, and he didn't like it. That doesn't mean that he didn't want to drop the belt though.

Bret won't put over ANYONE in Montreal
Sources: numerous. check Cornettes timeline 97 and Russos shoot who were both on the writing team in 97

He didn't feel it made sense for his character or his story to have him lose in Canada at the very end of the story. That's simply an artistic difference with what the story makers (WWE in this case) had in mind. He never had an issue dropping the belt, and was happy to drop to literally anyone. Had Shawn not been such an ass, he was happy to drop to him too... and in the end probably could have been talked into doing it in Montreal.

WCW: I've always been a WWF guy so I saw bits and pieces of Bret in WCW. Many say he was very hard to work with and didn't have the passion.

The Hitman was heartbroken and disillusioned from the business completely by this point. He took the departure from the WWF where he'd worked for most of his adult life extremely hard. If he didn't have the same passion he once had... I think it's completely understandable.

Rivalries DVD: Bret vs Shawn: Bret takes next to no responsibility for his part in their real life feud. He constantly hammers Shawn about the past even as Shawn continually apologizes. He seems to just not be able to get over it.

I never watched this, but knowing their history back then... Shawn should have been continually apologizing.

So.....am I the only one who feels Bret should at least get a little shit for his attitude and past actions like so many others?....discuss

Bret's no saint, and with his ego would probably be hard to be around at times. He does take shit too for it. You're simply just comparing him to the guy who arguably was the worst human being the business had ever seen during that period (HBK), and thinking he should take an equal share. They weren't equal. Bret may not have been a saint, but standing next to Shawn Michaels, he definitely looked like one. It would have been next to impossible not to.

 

[WWEWrestleFest]

I respect Bret Hart as a worker big time, but as a person, he seems hugely flawed. Granted, I don't know the man at all, I've never met him, and all I'm speaking from is just the interviews and shoots I've seen of him over the years.

But it seems to me his career, and his life, didn't turn out exactly as he wanted it to. And Bret's the kind of person who always blames others for his problems. If any of you are psychology majors, you could probably explain this than I can, but basically there are some people who avoid placing any blame on themselves and blame everyone else.

For the longest time, Bret held huge grudges with Vince McMahon and Shawn Michaels. It was easy to understand why he'd be angry with them, after how the Montreal Screwjob went down, and then Owen falling to his death on Vince's show. He was bitter with them for years. Then he finally made peace with them.

Now that he's forgiven them, he needs a new target to blame for his problems. So he blames Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff. Every interview he does, he talks about how terrible his run in WCW was, how he got hurt, how they didn't know how to use him, and so on.

I'm not saying everything is Bret's fault. But at some point, take some responsibility and say "ok, maybe I screwed up here"

 

[Mustang Sally]

The Hitman was heartbroken and disillusioned from the business completely by this point. He took the departure from the WWF where he'd worked for most of his adult life extremely hard. If he didn't have the same passion he once had... I think it's completely understandable.

Granted, yet it was Bret who chose to talk to WCW when his WWE contract was near expiration, so the possibility of leaving the place he worked for so many years was originally his idea, not Vince McMahon's.

Still, isn't it interesting to speculate what would have been had Bret not agreed to take McMahon's offer to break his contract and seek employment with WCW? If he stayed in his WWE job according to the terms of his new deal?

If Bret was unenthusiastic with WCW, how would he have been in WWE after forcing McMahon to honor his 20-year deal......even after Vince gave him permission to leave? How would WWE have used him, knowing they were stuck with the contract for another two decades?

Presumably, Vince would have sucked it up and honored the contract ......using Bret as a top star, as he had before.

But who really knows?

 

[Wald]

Granted, yet it was Bret who chose to talk to WCW when his WWE contract was near expiration, so the possibility of leaving the place he worked for so many years was originally his idea, not Vince McMahon's.

I really hate this idea that Bret, or anyone, is acting disloyal for checking out his options when his contract was up in 1996. What's the problem with asking WCW what they would offer? Particularly as Bret had never been positioned as the number one guy in the company in the same way Diesel had or Shawn Michaels was being put in at that time.

As for what Vince would have done with him. Well Bret suggests in his book that his idea was for him and Shawn to trade wins up until WM 14 (I think) where Shawn would win and Bret would move to a part time role. I think Bret was angling for Pat Patterson's job more than anything else and the 20 year deal was to try to secure himself a backstage role when his in-ring career was done. Vince had pitched the idea of Bret becoming his Babe Ruth style wrestler, a guy to wheel out when needed, and Vince had thought he could get that with Hogan and Savage in the past, so I could see Bret's ideal scenario becoming the reality.

Most likely, Austin still beats HBK at WM14 and Bret is used to put over Austin in Austin's first major title run. After that I could see him disappearing and coming back on occasion. The main problem obviously is that Bret's character would never really fit the Attitude Era model so perhaps he doesn't appear on screen that much after 1998.