Pitcher Suspensions

[CH David]

Okay, so Rick Porcello and Kevin Youkilis were given 5 game suspensions each for their "brawl" on Tuesday night. That is a start to this.

For the past few years I have been thinking about pitchers being suspended. Obviously, relievers will usually take their 5 game suspension, maybe appeal it, but still serve some sort of suspension, whether it is 3 or 4 games, whatever it is. But starting pitchers, well if they get suspended for 5 games, that is roughly them just missing one start, maybe two depending on the rotation.

I am probably in the minority, but I think if a starting pitcher is suspended, it shouldn't be calculated in games like it currently is. Starters are given 4 games in between starts for rest, so they won't be active unless it is like a 30 inning game and completely necessary. Why should their rest days be considered a suspension? Oh they can't suit up for the game and be on the bench to help cheer the team. Big deal, everyday players have to do the same thing, except they actually miss games that they are supposed to be playing in. I just don't get why starting pitchers should just not suit up for their off days, miss one game and be back on the bench, when an everyday player is gone for say 5 games.

I think that pitchers should be suspended by starts. I'm not saying if it would be a 5 game suspension, they miss 5 starts. Well theoritically it would be that way. But suspensions for starting pitchers should be a little different. If they are part of a brawl with an everyday player, if the everyday player is suspended for say 5 games, I think the pitcher should be suspended for two starts. Why? Because the pitcher fucked up, he should pay the consequences of not being able to help the team.

So do you think that a 5 game suspension, with 4 off days of not dressing and missing one start, is enough punishment for a starting pitcher? Or do you think that a starting pitcher should miss at least 2 starts, depending on the severity of the situation that calls for suspension?

 

[Cowboyfromhell]

I somewhat agree, a 5 game suspension just pushes a start back a day, so the hitter misses 5 games while the pitcher is sitting on the bench charting pitches and watching the game anyway.
I think Porcello got screwed on this deal anyway. I think batters are way to sensitive and pitchers should be able to pitch inside. And as long as they don't throw at a batters head, they should be able to plunk a guy here or there. That's the way it used to be.
My favorite brawl of all time was when Nolan Ryan hit Robin Ventura, Ventura charged, Ryan put him in a headlock and whooped his ass. And nothing against Ventura or Sox fans, I just always liked watching pitchers work and I think batters are far to sensitive.

 

[Cowboyfromhell]

Ok, apparently I am wrong about "how things used to be". Here is a stat from Buster Olney's recent blog on hit batters per game. The whole article is here
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4398786&name=olney_buster
Not Your Father's Plunk-fest
Year Per Game Total
1961 .40 572
1962 .44 709
1963 .44 714
1964 .43 694
1965 .44 720
1966 .42 682
1967 .46 751
1968 .48 778
1969 .45 882
1970 .42 825
1971 .42 821
1972 .40 751
1972 .40 751
1973 .39 755
1974 .40 751
1975 .39 761
1976 .35 684
1977 .38 791
1978 .37 772
1979 .36 754
1980 .31 657
1981 .33 464
1982 .32 668
1983 .34 1984
1984 .32 668
1985 .33 699
1986 .39 812
1987 .40 842
1988 .44 918
1989 .38 801
1990 .41 861
1991 .43 905
1992 .47 980
1993 .53 1,200
1994 .55 876
1995 .60 1,219
1996 .62 1,404
1997 .64 1,449
1998 .65 1,587
1999 .65 1,579
2000 .65 1,573
2001 .78 1,890
2002 .72 1,746
2003 .76 1,849
2004 .76 1,850
2005 .74 1,797
2006 .75 1,817
2007 .72 1,755
2008 .69 1,672
2009 .66 1,136

 

[jokeboy624]

I understand your stance, but siting your same example, Porcello was also ejected from the game and was no longer available to the Tigers to use. They then went to their bullpen, which if anyone is a Tigers fan knows, that's a scary proposition in itself. So in theory the team was "punished" twice for his actions. And I know that Youkilis was also ejected, but the team is ready for just such an occasion by having bench players available to them.

All this does is take the everyday players days off that they take off throughout the season and put them back to back. It's like all your vacation days at once.

More importantly, in this particular case I do believe that Youkilis' punishment should be worse for throwing his helmet at Porcello as he charged the mound. Uncalled for and a pussy move in my opinion. I didn't see the brawl but from what I heard he got what was coming to him when Porcello took him down.

 

[CH David]

I understand your stance, but siting your same example, Porcello was also ejected from the game and was no longer available to the Tigers to use. They then went to their bullpen, which if anyone is a Tigers fan knows, that's a scary proposition in itself. So in theory the team was "punished" twice for his actions. And I know that Youkilis was also ejected, but the team is ready for just such an occasion by having bench players available to them.

All this does is take the everyday players days off that they take off throughout the season and put them back to back. It's like all your vacation days at once.

More importantly, in this particular case I do believe that Youkilis' punishment should be worse for throwing his helmet at Porcello as he charged the mound. Uncalled for and a pussy move in my opinion. I didn't see the brawl but from what I heard he got what was coming to him when Porcello took him down.

Well I was just using the recent suspension of Youkilis and Porcello as an example. But when Carlos Zambrano had been suspended, or any other pitcher, that is my point. And the "off days" they would be getting just back to back, tell that to someone like Cal Ripken Jr. They didn't take a day off for years.

The point is just starting pitchers in general should miss two starts in my opinion, if they are suspended. Or worse if the action is much worse. All they would be missing with a 5 game suspension is not joining the team in the dugout during the games, and one start. An everyday player would be missing more than a starting pitcher, hence the reason starting pitcher suspensions should be looked at differently. This thread isn't about Porcello's suspension. It is about starting pitcher suspensions.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

In situation where a batter charges the mound, I don't think that the pitcher should be given any penalty unless they were throwing at the head of a batter. Rick Porcello didn't do anything wrong. He wanted nothing to do with Kevin Youkilis, and it was obvious. He was just protecting his best batter, and it's something that every pitcher in the league has done in their career.

If a suspension is necessary, I don't think they should be suspended two starts. Two games down the stretch can be the difference for a team in a tight race. Losing two quality starts for protecting your batters is unfair, and it'd ruin a part of the game for me.

Now, if a batter retaliates, charges the mound and throws a bat or helmet, he should be suspended. There is no excuse for starting a fight. Losing a batter for five games shouldn't affect a team so much as to eliminate them from contention.

 

[jokeboy624]

Well I was just using the recent suspension of Youkilis and Porcello as an example. But when Carlos Zambrano had been suspended, or any other pitcher, that is my point. And the "off days" they would be getting just back to back, tell that to someone like Cal Ripken Jr. They didn't take a day off for years.

The point is just starting pitchers in general should miss two starts in my opinion, if they are suspended. Or worse if the action is much worse. All they would be missing with a 5 game suspension is not joining the team in the dugout during the games, and one start. An everyday player would be missing more than a starting pitcher, hence the reason starting pitcher suspensions should be looked at differently. This thread isn't about Porcello's suspension. It is about starting pitcher suspensions.

I understand your stance, the bit about the thrown helmet was a side note. I still believe that the ejection and subsequent lost start is punishment enough. They lose TWO quality starts, especially if the ejection happens early enough in the game. Generally speaking, it's harder to replace a quality starting pitcher than it is a bat in a line up of 9 guys. Most of your offense is still intact during the suspension, but for one game your pitching is screwed depending on who you have come in for that suspension.

Let's be honest, there is no one like Cal Ripkin Jr and there never will be another, so that argument should go right out the window.

 

[CH David]

I understand your stance, the bit about the thrown helmet was a side note. I still believe that the ejection and subsequent lost start is punishment enough. They lose TWO quality starts, especially if the ejection happens early enough in the game. Generally speaking, it's harder to replace a quality starting pitcher than it is a bat in a line up of 9 guys. Most of your offense is still intact during the suspension, but for one game your pitching is screwed depending on who you have come in for that suspension.

Let's be honest, there is no one like Cal Ripkin Jr and there never will be another, so that argument should go right out the window.

True about Cal Ripken Jr. Miguel Tejada had a good streak going, but it ended a while ago.

But that is my point. What if at the end of a game, or the end of a start, a pitcher just loses it and throws at a hitter, and I don't mean it slips and it hits him, but I mean aims for him, maybe the guy hit a home run earlier or something. Bobby Jenks got a fine for just saying he was aiming in a retalitory fashion, and he is a closer.

If a starting pitcher screws up, and gets suspended, that is his fault and he should suffer the consequences. Not all pitchers get tossed after 2 innings, some can be into the 6th or 7th. In that case the starter still loses one start. What is the punishment that a starter gets in a 5 game suspension? Missing one start. Can't join the team for 4 other games. I didn't realize that was punishment. That seems like a weeks vacation to me.

If a pitcher is directly at fault, he should suffer the consequences that he brought upon himself. He screws up his teams chances, so he should learn some humility, take the blame for fucking up, and that is that. Besides, maybe a team has a talented young pitcher in the minors they could bring up, or use a spot start from a long reliever, that is what they do is eat innings.

 

[jokeboy624]

Pitchers are creatures of habits and the smallest thing can throw them off so easily. Even missing one start can screw up the rotation and causes the other pitchers in the rotation to have to adjust which can throw off their game as well. And it's the same for the batter, it's just a week off all at once.

What if all they have is a piece of shit down in the minors, that gives up more home runs than strikes? I mean, we can play the "What If" game all day long.

I do understand what you're saying, that there should be special rules for starting pitchers. What if they were given a fine as well, while keeping the 5 game suspension?

 

[CH David]

Pitchers are creatures of habits and the smallest thing can throw them off so easily. Even missing one start can screw up the rotation and causes the other pitchers in the rotation to have to adjust which can throw off their game as well. And it's the same for the batter, it's just a week off all at once.

Walking a batter can throw a pitcher off. Mark Buehrle was in the 6th inning of another possible Perfect Game in his first start after his actual Perfect Game. He gave up a walk, then it went down from there. I'm just saying, any little thing, a ball that isn't called a strike, a walk, can throw a pitcher off their game.

That is part of the game, making adjustments. In the Jake Peavy trade, Clayton Richard was scheduled to start against the Yankees that Friday. He was gone, and they didn't have anyone, so they used the long reliever and he pitched pretty well, kept the team in the game. Teams make adjustments, try your minor league players, especially if your pitchers are doing well in Triple A, it is sort of like a try out. If you pitch well, you may get another start, if you get shelled, back to Triple A and come back in the spring. Baseball is all about adjustments, to quote Ken Harrelson "the game within the game." If you don't make proper adjustments, you won't go anywhere and succeed.

What if all they have is a piece of shit down in the minors, that gives up more home runs than strikes? I mean, we can play the "What If" game all day long.

A) I don't recall playing the "What if" game. B) That is beside the point. If all a team has in the minors is pitchers that can't pitch, then there are two things to take from this. 1) Your farm club must suck something fierce, so you should get to work on fixing your minor league, and draft good players, such as good starting pitchers. 2) Your major league team must suck as well. Good teams start with the farm club. Look at the Twins. They play great fundamental baseball. They had some great pitching in previous years, because in the minors they were instilled with throwing strikes and not walking batters.

I do understand what you're saying, that there should be special rules for starting pitchers. What if they were given a fine as well, while keeping the 5 game suspension?

I would hope it is a hefty fine then. If any big name and high priced pitcher gets suspended, and they use the fine method, with a 5 game suspension, I would hope it actually takes away from their pocket, and not some little number like 50 grand. To high priced pitchers that is peon money. If it has to be a fine, make it hurt their bank account a little bit.

 

[jokeboy624]

Walking a batter can throw a pitcher off. Mark Buehrle was in the 6th inning of another possible Perfect Game in his first start after his actual Perfect Game. He gave up a walk, then it went down from there. I'm just saying, any little thing, a ball that isn't called a strike, a walk, can throw a pitcher off their game.

That is part of the game, making adjustments. In the Jake Peavy trade, Clayton Richard was scheduled to start against the Yankees that Friday. He was gone, and they didn't have anyone, so they used the long reliever and he pitched pretty well, kept the team in the game. Teams make adjustments, try your minor league players, especially if your pitchers are doing well in Triple A, it is sort of like a try out. If you pitch well, you may get another start, if you get shelled, back to Triple A and come back in the spring. Baseball is all about adjustments, to quote Ken Harrelson "the game within the game." If you don't make proper adjustments, you won't go anywhere and succeed.



A) I don't recall playing the "What if" game. B) That is beside the point. If all a team has in the minors is pitchers that can't pitch, then there are two things to take from this. 1) Your farm club must suck something fierce, so you should get to work on fixing your minor league, and draft good players, such as good starting pitchers. 2) Your major league team must suck as well. Good teams start with the farm club. Look at the Twins. They play great fundamental baseball. They had some great pitching in previous years, because in the minors they were instilled with throwing strikes and not walking batters.



I would hope it is a hefty fine then. If any big name and high priced pitcher gets suspended, and they use the fine method, with a 5 game suspension, I would hope it actually takes away from their pocket, and not some little number like 50 grand. To high priced pitchers that is peon money. If it has to be a fine, make it hurt their bank account a little bit.

I couldn't agree more, and sorry about the "What if" game comment. It was late here and I admit it may have come across a little snide. I do believe that depending on the severity of the case a ten game, or "two start" suspension would be warranted, but only in extreme situations, ie. throwing at someone's head on purpose. I think the ejection, missed start, and throwing the rotation out of whack is all punishment enough. I don't believe a suspension should be handed down for hitting a batter though, unless it's the aforementioned head shot, only for being involved in a brawl.

As a side note, I agree that the fine has to hurt to prove a point. I believe it should be a percentage of their salary, and therefore different for each player. That way the big names would at least feel the fine in their wallet as they write out the check.