Passing the Torch... to Who, Exactly?

[It's Damn Real!]

To who indeed...

While I'm sure I'll be run into the ground as I always am for beating a dead horse to death, I'm going to beat a dead horse to death again and say it as many times as I feel it needs to be said until people start realizing it: The current generation of "superstars" amounts to dick compared to the the glut of demigods that preceded them. Sting, Luger, Hall, Nash, Hart, Steiner, Hogan, Savage, Flair, Austin and the entire class of the 90's was the single greatest collection of performers this industry has ever seen, bar none—it's not even up for debate—it's cold hard fact, but age has caught up to the majority of them who still hold prominent roles today, and that fact has made something very evident to me—something frighteningly evident: the reason they are still where they are is because no one has forced them out otherwise. Why? Because there's no one to pass the torch to, and that's about as bad a thing that could have happened to pro-wreslting as there is — perhaps worse than the loss of WCW in the first place. The old guard can only hold on for so long before the bones break and the bodies die (figuratively speaking), so if there are no heir apparents to step into those will-be voids, the fans will be losing and losing repeatedly, and that's not fair to any of us.

It's no secret my disdain of the WWE has reached an all-time peak, so I'd hope you can still read the rest of this objectively in spite of knowing that, but of the current crop of performers from both WWE and TNA, who can we honestly look at right now and say "that guy is going to be huge"? Keep in mind, when I say huge, I don't mean it in a relative way, either — I mean that "that guy" (whoever he may be) is going to be as big if not bigger than his predecessors. Who? Because I see no one.

Guys like Edge, Angle and Jericho who lived through both eras as intermediate stars get a pass here, as they've already paid their dues and will hold a spot as the biggest men during the transition, but of the so-called "new class", who can you honestly say is going to truly be a world-wide star? Is there anyone, really?

Guys like AJ Styles, CM Punk, Randy Orton, John Cena and perhaps Jeff Hardy seem to have promising futures, but are they truly the cream of the crop? Because if that's the case, I feel sorry for the future of wrestling — especially if the second tier of "superstars" is going to be led by drab inconsequential performers like Bryan Danielson, Jay Lethal, John Morrison, Drew McIntyre and others, because the way I see it, wrestling should function on two tiers:

Tier 1: The biggest and the baddest. The global phenoms. The guys who can't walk in an airport without hundreds of screaming fans damn-near rioting for a chance to get within arms reach of them. These men carry the industry and rightfully go down in the annals of history as the larger-than-life demigods they've become. They're later pointed to as the rule for future performers to meet (or exceed) if success is to be had.

Tier 2: An overflow of Tier 1 stars. The biggest and the baddest who like the Tier 1 boys likely can't walk through an airport without causing a damn-near riot, but because of the lack of "spots" are relegated to the upper-mid-card where they hold the second most important job to their companies by peaking crowd reaction to a maximum for the main eventers to close the night out on. Case in point: Savage/Steamboat v. Hogan/Andre.​

Everything here after simply does not matter in the bigger picture.

Even if you can make a case for men like Styles, Punk, Orton, etc. as the new glut of major world-wide names, how can you possibly consider the depth behind them anything other than a failure when you look at it from a historical point of view? Take WCW for example — if Hogan, Flair, Nash and Sting were the Tier 1 players, that made Steiner, Savage, Hall and Luger and the Tier 2 boys. Steiner, Savage, Hall and Luger (among others) were the overflow of top-end talent who all could have (and did in many cases) have their fair share of runs at the top, but for the most part occupied that upper-mid-card region and made the boys above them look best for it. A glance at who occupies that space today should give you all the answers you need as to why the industry (as a whole) is dwelling in the toilet of mediocrity right now. No-personality lackluster monkey wrenches paraded and championed as key cogs like Danielson, Morrison, Lethal, Kazarian, Gabriel, Slater, etc. are the very reason the top-end is as boring as it is — there is very little behind the Tier 1 boys even moderately threatening their spots.

I'm sorry, and you can call me what you like because of it, but until the true stars start shining or are found elsewhere, pro-wrestling is going to continue to dwell in the toilet of mediocrity it has been for going close to a decade now (ever since the loss of WCW) — no ifs ands or buts about it.

Thoughts on all of this?

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Heavy stuff IDR, but really it's not always the conventional route that will make the next big name.

First off, let's get this out of the way. the torch is firmly in the hand of one John Cena at the moment. If you wanna talk about him not paying enough dues, be my guest because it's really old talk for me. He had a chance, he took it and regardless of the fact that he may not have been an 'indy worker' he gets my attention and does a good job. Moving on, if we look at who are being sized upto him, there are 3 people - Randy Orton, AJ Styles, Jeff Hardy .

This ain't the 80's IDR, so don't expect a 'superstar' to cause a near-riot at the airport. Atleast not if his only stompings are in wrestling. What I mean to say is suppose tomorrow Orton does a movie that becomes a huge hit on the domestic circuit and slowly takes a global appeal (ala The Wrestler) if you will. Only then will you see that mass-appeal return to a superstar and in turn benefit the whole wrestling industry

When he was hot, Hogan made a beeline for Hollywood, failed and came back. The Rock did the same and hasn't returned. If we can have a superstar who is not only an A-List actor but also a full-time wrestler, it is in that scenario that you'll truly see a throwback to the frenzied scene of the hey-days of wrestling. That one superstar can harken those days by setting an example and bringing the wrestling to a greater global plateau.

There are people who can pull it off. Their wrestling ability at best, even mediocre, can still propel them to this level. But I would personally love to see a Global phenomenon who could go in the ring. A cross between Hogan's popularity and Shawn's ring work, you know what I mean.

One superstar in the past years who I hoped would get mass appeal because of his sheer talent in acting, wrestling is Kurt Angle. If he was done right, he could've done exactly what I am and hopefully you IDR, are talking about

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

What an excellent thread IDR.

Let me ask you a question IDR. You said how the tier 2 wrestlers of today are pretty shit as compared to the ones of the past but what is your opinion of the tier 1 guys. Do you think that the tier 1 of today is comparable to that of the past? Even if these tier q guys elevate someone extremely good that person will get over because he is extremely good and not because he has been passed the torch by the present tier 1 guys.

Its not about wrestling skill, its about personality. Daniel Bryan is a tier 2 guy today. Kane was a tier 2 guy back in the attitude era. I'm sure no one will say that Kane is a better wrestler than Bryan but as it stands Bryan would do well to accumulate even a fraction of Kane's popularity.

I have my hopes on CM Punk though. He's still young and has plenty of charisma but the problem is that he's gotten over as a heel. Heels just don't capture the imagination of fans like faces do and the problem is that CM Punk's gimmick does not just work when he is a face. No one cares about him being straight edge when he is a face. Its as a heel that he gets under the skins of the fans and starts generating that awesome heat.

The way I see it CM Punk is going to be the next Chris Jericho. But I don't want the next Jericho. I want the next Austin or the next Rock and sadly I can't see anyone who can even come within touching distance. Certainly not The Miz.

What do you think of Dinero, IDR? He looks a bit different to me at least amidst this sea of mediocrity but he surely has a long way to go.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

What an excellent thread IDR.

Let me ask you a question IDR. You said how the tier 2 wrestlers of today are pretty shit as compared to the ones of the past but what is your opinion of the tier 1 guys. Do you think that the tier 1 of today is comparable to that of the past? Even if these tier q guys elevate someone extremely good that person will get over because he is extremely good and not because he has been passed the torch by the present tier 1 guys.

Very few. I think CM Punk and John Cena both have what it takes to catapult themselves into mega-stardom, but the remainder — Hardy, Styles and Orton included are Tier 2 types at best, which is exactly the problem. Even if they were acceptable as Tier 1, which they are, the Tier 2 behind them are really Tier 3 and Tier 4 and below, which exposes the industry as a whole as having a total lack of depth.

In terms of sports here (though the message may still be lost in translation), think hockey — you have first-liners like Crosby and Ovechkin who would be Tier 1 players. They are superstars. Then you have the slightly less thans like Bäckström and Malkin who are still star players in their own right but play "second fiddle" to Crosby and Ovechkin respectively. In todays terms, you'd be replacing Crosby and Ovechkin with Bäckström and Malkin and then Bäckström and Malkin with Tyler Kennedy and Eric Fehr. It just doesn't equate. Kennedy and Fehr are third-liners and always will be, no matter how poor the depth on their club.

As to whether or not they are comparable, yes and no. Yes, because the business is still the same business, but no, because the economic and social constructs surrounding it and affecting it are vastly different when juxtaposed with their predecessors. Peaks and valleys.

Its not about wrestling skill, its about personality. Daniel Bryan is a tier 2 guy today. Kane was a tier 2 guy back in the attitude era. I'm sure no one will say that Kane is a better wrestler than Bryan but as it stands Bryan would do well to accumulate even a fraction of Kane's popularity.

My point exactly — and that's a secondary issue that actually ties in well here, because those same card carrying members of the DPC you've heard me preach wildly against for months are the same "Tier 2" performers in each company right now by default, simply because there's nothing there to usurp them (rightfully).

I have my hopes on CM Punk though. He's still young and has plenty of charisma but the problem is that he's gotten over as a heel. Heels just don't capture the imagination of fans like faces do and the problem is that CM Punk's gimmick does not just work when he is a face. No one cares about him being straight edge when he is a face. Its as a heel that he gets under the skins of the fans and starts generating that awesome heat.

The way I see it CM Punk is going to be the next Chris Jericho. But I don't want the next Jericho. I want the next Austin or the next Rock and sadly I can't see anyone who can even come within touching distance. Certainly not The Miz.

It doesn't have to. Punk as a heel is probably the single most interesting thing going on in that miserable company right now unless you're actually entertained by someone of Cena's stature playing fifteenth fiddle by making generic no-personality "superstars" like David Otunga and the rest of Nexus (Barrett excluded) relevant — relatively speaking.

Hogan was the biggest heel in WCW from '96 to 2001 and was still one of the largest draws for them regardless of the fact that fans didn't pay to cheer for him. They still paid to see him, even if it was with the hopes they'd see him get his ass kicked or lose his title (which of course didn't happen very often). There's no reason Punk can't be put into the same position of power with the WWE. His career has taken the Rock path thus far. Came in as a face, pushed by not really accepted, turned heel and turned on the fans, joined a rebel group and has yet to leave them for mega-stardom.

What do you think of Dinero, IDR? He looks a bit different to me at least amidst this sea of mediocrity but he surely has a long way to go.

Good wrestler. Very entertaining, very promising, but I'm not sure I see mega-star written on him as much as I do a sort of second rate Booker T/Rock type. For where he is in TNA he'll be pushed through the roof, but where he is in terms of the entire wrestling world? He's got a long way to go before his musical cue can bring 15,000 people out of their seats screaming, if you know what I mean.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I think the problem isn't with the talent, but how the talent is booked. In wrestling you can make anyone who's decent at best seem like a God if you want them to be. This is just a theory I've had, but it seems that the WWE especially has tried to keep all it's top guys on an even kiel of superstardom. There could be a few reasons for this, one is so they aren't fucked trying to fill the void should their top guy get injured or leave the company.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Heavy stuff IDR, but really it's not always the conventional route that will make the next big name.

No one said it had to. Controversy isn't how every major star is born, though those created from it are seldom not mega-stars (Austin, McMahon, Hogan, etc.)

First off, let's get this out of the way. the torch is firmly in the hand of one John Cena at the moment. If you wanna talk about him not paying enough dues, be my guest because it's really old talk for me. He had a chance, he took it and regardless of the fact that he may not have been an 'indy worker' he gets my attention and does a good job.

Yes, I agree it is in the hands of Cena, but that's part of the problem. John is a fantastic wrestling personality, but he's not enough — primarily because the depth behind him is non-existant, and the talent in front of him the same. In an ideal world, Cena is Luger where he does his job admirably but is usurped by better talent ahead of him, or at the very least he's Sting where a Luger-type sits firmly behind him to make him look that good.

Moving on, if we look at who are being sized upto him, there are 3 people - Randy Orton, AJ Styles, Jeff Hardy .

Same problem as above.

This ain't the 80's IDR, so don't expect a 'superstar' to cause a near-riot at the airport. Atleast not if his only stompings are in wrestling. What I mean to say is suppose tomorrow Orton does a movie that becomes a huge hit on the domestic circuit and slowly takes a global appeal (ala The Wrestler) if you will. Only then will you see that mass-appeal return to a superstar and in turn benefit the whole wrestling industry

Doesn't have to be, and I don't buy that this "era" is incapable of producing the same level of stardom it's predecessors were. I'm sure people in the 90's said the same of the stars developing at the time who weren't going to be as good as the 80's, but fancy how that turned out, yeah?

Problem with 2001 and on is that there has yet to truly be a generation/crop of stars who come up together who can actually rival or even attest to the success of their predecessors. The closest would be Orton, Batista and Cena, and that's simply not enough.

When he was hot, Hogan made a beeline for Hollywood, failed and came back. The Rock did the same and hasn't returned. If we can have a superstar who is not only an A-List actor but also a full-time wrestler, it is in that scenario that you'll truly see a throwback to the frenzied scene of the hey-days of wrestling. That one superstar can harken those days by setting an example and bringing the wrestling to a greater global plateau.

I don't buy this. Being a B-level actor is not greater than being an A-level professional wrestler. The problem to me is that the industry has been so stale for so long that few want to be a part of it. It's why you see guys like Batista and the like actually retiring "early" instead of holding on for the love of the game the way oft-criticized types like Flair are doing.

There are people who can pull it off. Their wrestling ability at best, even mediocre, can still propel them to this level. But I would personally love to see a Global phenomenon who could go in the ring. A cross between Hogan's popularity and Shawn's ring work, you know what I mean.

So would I, but it's not necessary. Quite a number of the biggest names/draws in history were mediocre (at best) in the ring but still sold out more arenas than the combined selling power of half the performers today — Nash, Hogan, etc.

One superstar in the past years who I hoped would get mass appeal because of his sheer talent in acting, wrestling is Kurt Angle. If he was done right, he could've done exactly what I am and hopefully you IDR, are talking about

Kurt is already a mega-star. There are no qualms about that, but his age is catching up to him, and he was already a band-aid on a shot-gun wound (same as Edge, Guererro, etc.). Problem is, we're fresh out of band-aids and still bleeding profusely.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think the problem isn't with the talent, but how the talent is booked. In wrestling you can make anyone who's decent at best seem like a God if you want them to be. This is just a theory I've had, but it seems that the WWE especially has tried to keep all it's top guys on an even kiel of superstardom. There could be a few reasons for this, one is so they aren't fucked trying to fill the void should their top guy get injured or leave the company.

You have to have the talent in the first place in order to be booked in a manner that makes it sell big, though, Blue.

No matter how you try, guys like Morrison, DiBiase, etc. are never going to have that, because they lack the talent outright.

It's the same reason a guy like Paul Wright never went anywhere. He's boring. He doesn't have that over-the-top personality to make it work, which is why the moment he stopped being able to do anything truly memorable in the ring (WCW) was the moment he stopped being memorable at all.

His claim to fame, aside from the work he put in with the nWo and WCW is being punched in the face by Floyd Mayweather. That's pathetic.

You can talk about how poor the booking is, and you'll always be partially right, but you can't turn a Camry into a Corvette no matter how much you dress it up.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

You have to have the talent in the first place in order to be booked in a manner that makes it sell big, though, Blue.

No matter how you try, guys like Morrison, DiBiase, etc. are never going to have that, because they lack the talent outright.

It's the same reason a guy like Paul Wright never went anywhere. He's boring. He doesn't have that over-the-top personality to make it work, which is why the moment he stopped being able to do anything truly memorable in the ring (WCW) was the moment he stopped being memorable at all.

His claim to fame, aside from the work he put in with the nWo and WCW is being punched in the face by Floyd Mayweather. That's pathetic.

You can talk about how poor the booking is, and you'll always be partially right, but you can't turn a Camry into a Corvette no matter how much you dress it up.

I know where you're coming from about the Upper midcard guys, they're pretty shit right now. But your top tier guys can be alot bigger if the powers that be wanted them to be. You can have Randy Orton be huge, and I mean huge if they wanted him to bury a few guys in the process. But it just doesn't work that way anymore.

I'm with you on the mid card being shit, that's for sure but I think the top guys in the company are just fine, even though they'll never be booked to be the Next Austin or Hogan. But really, is that such a bad thing?

 

[Ferbian]

One of the problems you pose IDR with the fact that the "future" is gonna be "carried" by guys like Morrison, Bryan Danielson etc. isn't necessarily how it will ever end up.

John Cena, Randy Orton, Sheamus and Wade Barrett, the 4 "top" guys that are still young and around right now is most likely the ones that are gonna carry the future of the business. The torch doesn't need to be passed just yet, because the torch is already being held by a few guys young of age yet with enough experience and time in the business to be considered the veterans that still needs to be presented in the everyday of professional wrestling for us to truly care and reminisce the times where we enjoyed watching wrestling (Cause I'm sure some enjoy watching now, I for one do).

And due to all of these wrestlers still being present, and John Cena and Randy Orton already being the cream of the crop in the business today (Of the young guys at least) should be more than enough to carry the business until someone comes along to sweep it off it's feet. Hulk Hogan carried the business for over 10 years as one of the primary attractions, with supports from Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes and all the other legends of today. John Cena and Randy Orton haven't even been around for 10 in WWE. Therefore there's still years for them to be replaced, there's still years for a replacement to come along.

So to worry about the future, now at least, is worrying without any true reason. There are more than enough "decent" and promising superstars on their way up, or still progressing somewhere in the independent scene. Eventually one of them will be truly exposed, and be considered the next John Cena, the next Austin, the next Hogan (Not in any of their levels, but as in the next big shot).

So for now, just watch wrestling. The world of professional wrestling have been mainstream exposed for over about 40 years or so. Why the hell would it die down now? Like I've said in some other thread some time ago, professional wrestling has it's ups and it's downs. Some time it's on the decline, but it will most likely always return to the rising point.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I know where you're coming from about the Upper midcard guys, they're pretty shit right now. But your top tier guys can be alot bigger if the powers that be wanted them to be. You can have Randy Orton be huge, and I mean huge if they wanted him to bury a few guys in the process. But it just doesn't work that way anymore.

But it's still an issue, even if guys like Orton, Cena and the like were pushed to the moon. In fact, one of the biggest problems facing them even being able to do so is the total lack of depth on the rosters, and you can only use the same Orton v. Cena or Cena v. Sheamus or Sheamus v. Orton, etc. feuds so many times before that no longer helps either — this is the exact reason the WWE is in a rut right now (and has been for years). They never developed talent posed to usurp the old guard, so when the old guard began retiring one-by-one, slowly-but-surely the impact of the WWE became less and less. Is it any wonder? Their answer was to force Barrett and Sheamus into thrusted power roles whereby they took by force, which in theory is fine, but it also exposed them for how weak their class really had been.

So now you have one mega-star in HHH (who's injured) and a few superstars (not mega-stars) in Orton and Cena and then what? Nothing. It's all part of the same problem that's two-pronged. Doesn't matter which route you take — they both lead to the fire.

I'm with you on the mid card being shit, that's for sure but I think the top guys in the company are just fine, even though they'll never be booked to be the Next Austin or Hogan. But really, is that such a bad thing?

Not inherently for them, no, but for the business? Yes. They don't need to be "the next" of anything — Austin, Jericho, whatever — but they do need to be the next big thing, and being the next big thing that isn't that big is a let down and moonlights as theft because it robs fans of money and the potential for something great when instead their given something adequate to pacify them. This is why I find it infuriating that anyone actually support mediocrity like Bryan, McIntyre, etc.

Re-read my OP — the problem is that they're attempting to redefine what the Tiers actually mean by allowing for Tier 3 and lower "talent" like the aforementioned to parade as champions. It's pathetic. Look at the US Title, for example — there's no value in that belt anymore. None. It went from the waists of mega-stars like Flair, Luger and Bret Hart to The Miz and Daniel Bryan. If you can't see the gargantuan gap between those types of performers, that too is a problem, and something I'd describe as the direct result of conditioning.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

One of the problems you pose IDR with the fact that the "future" is gonna be "carried" by guys like Morrison, Bryan Danielson etc. isn't necessarily how it will ever end up.

John Cena, Randy Orton, Sheamus and Wade Barrett, the 4 "top" guys that are still young and around right now is most likely the ones that are gonna carry the future of the business. The torch doesn't need to be passed just yet, because the torch is already being held by a few guys young of age yet with enough experience and time in the business to be considered the veterans that still needs to be presented in the everyday of professional wrestling for us to truly care and reminisce the times where we enjoyed watching wrestling (Cause I'm sure some enjoy watching now, I for one do).

They aren't the problem, but they are major part of it — re-read my OP, Ferbs. Again, the issue isn't with Cena, Orton, Sheamus and Barrett — it's with the fact that they are the only four there with "mega-star" potential. The likes of Morrison, Bryan and the rest of that crop of overrated generic never-going-anywheres will never reach mega-stardom, ever, and because of that they fail off the bat to establish the proper heirarchy that would otherwise allow guys above them to develop into the mega-stars they should be.

The torch does need to be passed, but it can't, because there's no one standing with their hand out who actually deserves to run with it that isn't already.

And due to all of these wrestlers still being present, and John Cena and Randy Orton already being the cream of the crop in the business today (Of the young guys at least) should be more than enough to carry the business until someone comes along to sweep it off it's feet. Hulk Hogan carried the business for over 10 years as one of the primary attractions, with supports from Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes and all the other legends of today. John Cena and Randy Orton haven't even been around for 10 in WWE. Therefore there's still years for them to be replaced, there's still years for a replacement to come along.

It's not them I'm looking to replace outright though, Ferbs — it's the fact that there's nothing behind them (or ahead of them) that's the issue. You can't honestly believe that Orton, Cena, Barrett and Sheamus are enough to carry the industry. This isn't about the WWE alone —*it's about professional wrestling as a whole. Orton, Cena, Barrett and Sheamus look like pissants compared to the structural hierarchies that preceded them — namely the ones WCW largely created. That was power. This is simply sustenance, and there's a very big difference between the two. The former is capable of revolutionizing and energizing for decades. The latter is capable of keeping the industry alive enough to potentially find another former.

So to worry about the future, now at least, is worrying without any true reason. There are more than enough "decent" and promising superstars on their way up, or still progressing somewhere in the independent scene. Eventually one of them will be truly exposed, and be considered the next John Cena, the next Austin, the next Hogan (Not in any of their levels, but as in the next big shot).

See above.

So for now, just watch wrestling. The world of professional wrestling have been mainstream exposed for over about 40 years or so. Why the hell would it die down now? Like I've said in some other thread some time ago, professional wrestling has it's ups and it's downs. Some time it's on the decline, but it will most likely always return to the rising point.

I never said it'd die —*I said it won't progress. Again, this is about sustenance v. spawn.

I have no desire to watch a company on life support simply because it's capable of keeping itself breathing. I want to watch it actually do something that in term creates mega-stars.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

But it's still an issue, even if guys like Orton, Cena and the like were pushed to the moon. In fact, one of the biggest problems facing them even being able to do so is the total lack of depth on the rosters, and you can only use the same Orton v. Cena or Cena v. Sheamus or Sheamus v. Orton, etc. feuds so many times before that no longer helps either — this is the exact reason the WWE is in a rut right now (and has been for years). They never developed talent posed to usurp the old guard, so when the old guard began retiring one-by-one, slowly-but-surely the impact of the WWE became less and less. Is it any wonder? Their answer was to force Barrett and Sheamus into thrusted power roles whereby they took by force, which in theory is fine, but it also exposed them for how weak their class really had been.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but you do realize that the time period you call the best had the same type of "problems". We had Rock vs. Austin almost all the time, Hogan vs. Sting in the same light. Even back then we had all those marquee match ups. I think the main difference between then and now is that the second company isn't nearly as big. If TNA was as big as WCW was back then I'd bet that these big matches and feuds would feel, well bigger. It's the lack of competition that you're really missing here. The guys at the top are fine in WWE(for most) the top of the competition is what's lacking. If TNA had a marquee match up then this conversation wouldn't be happening.

So now you have one mega-star in HHH (who's injured) and a few superstars (not mega-stars) in Orton and Cena and then what? Nothing. It's all part of the same problem that's two-pronged. Doesn't matter which route you take — they both lead to the fire.

I'd put Cena above Trips right now and Orton is on his way there if not there already. A few more wouldn't hurt to say the least though.

Not inherently for them, no, but for the business? Yes. They don't need to be "the next" of anything — Austin, Jericho, whatever — but they do need to be the next big thing, and being the next big thing that isn't that big is a let down and moonlights as theft because it robs fans of money and the potential for something great when instead their given something adequate to pacify them. This is why I find it infuriating that anyone actually support mediocrity like Bryan, McIntyre, etc.

I like Bryan's work. Fun guy in the ring. Actually I'd like it if the midcard titles in the E would become more of a showcase for the smaller technical guys. Maybe that's just me being content with what they give me, but I'm entertained by it. Same with TNA, the smaller guys have been entertaining me more than anything else. Maybe this is what the midcard should become with more people appreciating the smaller wrestler.

Re-read my OP — the problem is that they're attempting to redefine what the Tiers actually mean by allowing for Tier 3 and lower "talent" like the aforementioned to parade as champions. It's pathetic. Look at the US Title, for example — there's no value in that belt anymore. None. It went from the waists of mega-stars like Flair, Luger and Bret Hart to The Miz and Daniel Bryan. If you can't see the gargantuan gap between those types of performers, that too is a problem, and something I'd describe as the direct result of conditioning.

Unfortunatly I think that's just the way it's going to be my friend. Titles mean fuck all nowadays, which really isn't as horrible as it sounds because the feuds with no title involved are usually the better ones anyway.

 

[Vega]

The guys of the 90's era are fading, because that era is over. Those guys and their characters will never be back, because the time is different and so are the people and demands. If a 30-years old Hogan would exist now, I don't think he'd get over like he did in the 80's. There's a whole generation in between and the larger-than-life-characters don't have the matrix that existed back then. The Undertaker, Sting, Kane, the Big Show and to a degree Triple H are the last of that generation and I don't even think it's a bad thing.

A new generation brings new characters. A StraightEdge CM Punk, a friendly vegan Bryan, a methodical Orton and a dynamic redefining AJ wouldn't have worked the way they do now 15 years ago, and the slower paced big (muscle)men and machos like Hogan, Andre, Luger, Hall or Nash probably wouldn't work right now. I'd even say they began to struggle with zeitgeist about ten years ago.

I think people have higher expectations when it goes to wrestling abilty and dynamic matches than before. Even the way promos are delivered to get a reaction are different. We wouldn't really find a Jericho, Miz or Punk style promo in the old school archives, and the backstage monologues of Hogan, Warrior or Savage are a thing of the past.

Maybe the upcoming generation isn't even that much about top guys, but about top competition with a larger main event scene, larger character diversity and smoother Midcard-ME transitions? Maybe there is no Tier 1 anymore, because there's no need to have one. Guys like Jericho, Mysterio, Kane, Hardy, Benoit or Punk define the guy who can show great midcard matches and add freshness and diversity to the Main Event. Is there really the need of overshadowing alpha males?

The age of Kayfabe is over, the UFC shows what real fights look like and wrestling can only win with stories, athleticism and fans relating to wrestlers. While wrestlers of the past were more like people to look up to, I think they're now more like guys to personally have a link to. A guy wins because he's more interesting and not because he's stronger or looks more like a superhero.

I don't think there still is a public desire for Bret, Nash, Hogan or Flair. Their time is over and their characters won't come back, because they aren't needed in this time. The guys I see on top around WM30 and BFG10 are CM Punk, John Cena (with a repackaged character), AJ Styles, Bryan Danielson and maybe Randy Orton (for whom I predict a large ocean of staleness in about a year's time). Not sure about Barrett, Hardy, Sheamus, Pope, Morrison or Shelley, but they have the talent in my eyes. But the domination of muscle machos is a past thing I think. I at least wouldn't trade the new guys for young Hogans or Nashs and I believe most fans wouldn't, because we've seen that. Athletic ability and diversity in characters are much more nowadays. You'd probably argue that, but I see a larger diversity in Orton, Cena, Punk, Morrison, Jericho, Hardy, Styles and Bryan than in Hogan, Savage, Nash, Bret, Sting, Hall, Steiner and Luger. There are more special guys for niches of fans than there than there was in a more mainstream good-evil landscape.


If you say the new guys don't have the talking ability and the charisma of the past guys, could you please give some examples of great promos you miss or define a little bit more what the new generation is lacking? What made the 80 and 90 guys colorful while the new crop stays grey in your eyes?

€dit: I'd like to add that I'm not even a big fan of the wrestling that is shown right now by WWE or TNA, I'd give it a 3 or 4 out of 10. But think the problem is not the talent and you could do A LOT with the current generation if done right.

 

[Ferbian]

They aren't the problem, but they are major part of it — re-read my OP, Ferbs. Again, the issue isn't with Cena, Orton, Sheamus and Barrett — it's with the fact that they are the only four there with "mega-star" potential. The likes of Morrison, Bryan and the rest of that crop of overrated generic never-going-anywheres will never reach mega-stardom, ever, and because of that they fail off the bat to establish the proper heirarchy that would otherwise allow guys above them to develop into the mega-stars they should be.

But like I did state, professional wrestling's current cream of the crop are more than young enough to carry it until there can come along someone with a bigger top dog potential than the current "second tier" as I would believe you addressed Morrison, Bryan etc. to be.

The torch does need to be passed, but it can't, because there's no one standing with their hand out who actually deserves to run with it that isn't already.

Yet it doesn't need to be passed just yet. And even if it did, there is indeed Wade Barrett and Sheamus, who haven't even had the chance to truly grace the torch yet. Sheamus being put over by Triple H? Hardly passing the torch, cause Triple H isn't disappearing in that manner just yet. And John Cena was still the top dog, who didn't pass the torch cause Orton more or less stole it (momentarily?)

So for now, if WWE truly needs someone to take the stepping stone for the next big thing. Well, Sheamus and Wade are more then available. But the thing is, they don't need someone to step up yet.

It's not them I'm looking to replace outright though, Ferbs — it's the fact that there's nothing behind them (or ahead of them) that's the issue. You can't honestly believe that Orton, Cena, Barrett and Sheamus are enough to carry the industry. This isn't about the WWE alone —*it's about professional wrestling as a whole. Orton, Cena, Barrett and Sheamus look like pissants compared to the structural hierarchies that preceded them — namely the ones WCW largely created. That was power. This is simply sustenance, and there's a very big difference between the two. The former is capable of revolutionizing and energizing for decades. The latter is capable of keeping the industry alive enough to potentially find another former.

They're more than capable to carry the industry for the next coming 2-3 years to say the least. 2-3 years is a long time to produce new stars. Benoit have been dead for a little over 3 years, and it feels like ages ago does it not?

Also I fail to see exactly where WCW created the next mega star? WWE created the mega stars of today and yesterday - Hogan, Randy Savage Austin, Rock, Triple H, Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Randy Orton and Batista. All of these people were mega stars truly formed and created by WWE. Who did WCW create of mega stars? Goldberg? Please.

WWE have always been the cream of the crop in terms of creating the big stars and the big money makers. WWE is always gonna be the one to continue carrying a new star into the wrestling world. And WWE has much experience with it. Why would they have forgotten it now?

While I don't see it myself, and you clearly don't either, perhaps WWE is able to create that megastar of the awful second tier of WWE, the Mid-card that is. Miz for one could for example become the next mega star, and he's certainly not a shabby choice either.

I never said it'd die —*I said it won't progress. Again, this is about sustenance v. spawn.

Being stuck leaves out progression which therefore leaves out the potential of becoming any bigger. If you can't get bigger or continue moving, eventually death is inevitable.

I have no desire to watch a company on life support simply because it's capable of keeping itself breathing. I want to watch it actually do something that in term creates mega-stars.

Which is still more than possible. There are still many years to do it in. Randy Orton, one of the currently hugely over mega stars, is 30! He's not gonna go anywhere unless he's severely injured to the extend of which he can't possibly continue. And I don't exactly see that happening just yet. The same goes for John Cena, but he's been injured so often and come back quicker than it would be believably possible to carry the place once again.

 

[Tequila Dave]

I'm not sure if I'm comprehending this thread correctly, but I believe the problem lies with the wrestling industry as a whole opposed to individual wreslers and their inability to hold their respective company and recieve the torch.

Wrestling isn't as popular today as it once was, everyone knows that. The current main eventers and faces (such as John Cena, Randy Orton, Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam) don't get anywhere NEAR the plublicity as those you mentioned did. Of course they aren't going to be bombarded wherever they go, because no one knows who they are; they simply don't get enough exposure.

Now, the obvious argeuemnt is "if they were better, more people would watch," but i disagree. No matter how talented a group of individual wrestlers are, they won't change the perception of the wrestling industry. There can't be another Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair because wrestling has had it's time in the mainstream spotlight, and so have wrestlers.

The appeal of wrestling has decreased for many reasons; and none of them are because of who is being presented as the faces in the first tier. Wrestling isn't considered cool now; it's not new, it's not fresh, it's not unique and it's not 'real.' This is something that can't be changed; the 'coolness' of wrestling is detirmined by the people, not by wrestling companies and wrestlers.

Look at it this way. I don't know much about boxing, I REALLY don't, but everyone knows of Muhammed Ali, Mike Tyson and so on, becuase they were the stars at boxing's peak. However, people have naturally become less ineterested in boxing over the years, and the current stars such as Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather (who may be just as talented as the former stars) are not house hold names. In fact, what formely popular form of entertainent from fifteen years ago is still prdocuing big names? None that I can think of...

 

[ABMorales787]

When you think about it, guys like Steve Austin, Sting, Triple H and The Undertaker really did get the torch somewhat passed to them. Something that really never happened in today's generation. We saw Steve Austin match wits for months with Bret Hart and HBK. We saw Triple H align himself with HBK and feud with Bret Hart and The Undertaker. Undertaker defeated Hulk Hogan with help from Ric Flair. We saw Sting match Ric Flair blow for blow for years the same way Ric did Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes. But we can't say those things about John Cena, Randy Orton or AJ Styles. John and Randy's rite to passage in WWE has been the same as everyone else the past 10 years. The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels and to a degree, Triple H. Not much of an accomplishment when you take into account how many other have done the same for so long. While their popularity can compete with those who came before them, it's hard to compare because they never really had that interaction with the past generation. Stone Cold can indeed be compared to Hulk Hogan because he eventually turned a rating war that had Hulk in the frontline to his favor. But could John Cena match up to Steve Austin? Well I don't know. They've never interacted.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

As far as I can comprehend this thread, it is a question of finding The Next Guy, out of the current crop of 'underwhelming' superstars.

Again I agree with Ferbs, the torch doesn't have to be passed just yet. See, IDR you call someone like a Morrison or Bryan undeserving of even being considered to sniff the flames of the torch, but who knows. One night, one feud, one WWE film, anything could change the landscape.

The last two megastars were truly born during a speech at KOTR, and during a screwjob at Bash at the Beach. One night that changed pro-wrestling. It's happened before and can very well happen again.

I do like the current crop we have at the main-event scene especially Barrett.
Again, this is a new era, things will never be exactly the same as ever before, but impression is a matter of opinion. You might detest a superstar and think if he was the top guy it would be shameful whereas I would love the fact that he is the face of the company, and applaud his every move.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

When you think about it, guys like Steve Austin, Sting, Triple H and The Undertaker really did get the torch somewhat passed to them. Something that really never happened in today's generation. We saw Steve Austin match wits for months with Bret Hart and HBK. We saw Triple H align himself with HBK and feud with Bret Hart and The Undertaker. Undertaker defeated Hulk Hogan with help from Ric Flair. We saw Sting match Ric Flair blow for blow for years the same way Ric did Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes. But we can't say those things about John Cena, Randy Orton or AJ Styles. John and Randy's rite to passage in WWE has been the same as everyone else the past 10 years. The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels and to a degree, Triple H. Not much of an accomplishment when you take into account how many other have done the same for so long. While their popularity can compete with those who came before them, it's hard to compare because they never really had that interaction with the past generation. Stone Cold can indeed be compared to Hulk Hogan because he eventually turned a rating war that had Hulk in the frontline to his favor. But could John Cena match up to Steve Austin? Well I don't know. They've never interacted.

You made a great point here Killjoy. No one kinda passed the torch to Cena and Orton. They got it more or less by default because no one was around. The torch is truly passed when the face of one generation loses to the face of the coming generation and that did not happen with Cena or with Orton. To an extent though it did happen with Orton because he did feud with Foley and HHH for a while but that does not equate to having feuds with Austin or Rock does it?

I think that the missing link here is Brock Lesnar. I think WWE was building their company around Lesnar when he decided to leave all of a sudden. Think about it. He had victories over Rock, Undertaker and Angle. I think he was destined to win his feud with Goldberg too. But suddenly he decides to leave. Now the WWE was pretty shattered by this move in my opinion and so they decided to push the guys whom they thought were obviously the most charismatic amongst the current crop ie John Cena.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

@Ferbian and Paperghost

There is a point that IDR made that I do not think both of you are getting. IDR is talking about how in the past the tier 2 superstars were a force to be reckoned with. There were times in the attitude era when even the Undertaker was feuding with guys like Maven and a very young Jeff Hardy. In short there were times that even someone of Undertaker's stature was working with the midcard or the upper midcard such was the depth of the roster. Its not the case now. There's quite a huge gulf between the tier 1 and the tier 2 guys. Its not like John Morrison can shuffle back and forth between the main event and the midcard like guys like Undertaker and Kane did in the past.

And even if John Cena and Randy Orton are going to be around for a long time, the torch needs to be passed. Because there needs to be a day when niether Cena nor Orton is the champion but both of them are still actively competing. If this day does not come then both Cena and Orton would get extremely stale and the crowd would be tired of seeing them with the championship belt. Cena and Orton will be slowly but surely be pushed into a more HBK like role of a veteran babyface. And when that time comes there isn't exactly anybody as good as Cena or Orton to take their place in the card.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

@Ferbian and Paperghost

There is a point that IDR made that I do not think both of you are getting. IDR is talking about how in the past the tier 2 superstars were a force to be reckoned with. There were times in the attitude era when even the Undertaker was feuding with guys like Maven and a very young Jeff Hardy. In short there were times that even someone of Undertaker's stature was working with the midcard or the upper midcard such was the depth of the roster. Its not the case now. There's quite a huge gulf between the tier 1 and the tier 2 guys. Its not like John Morrison can shuffle back and forth between the main event and the midcard like guys like Undertaker and Kane did in the past.

And even if John Cena and Randy Orton are going to be around for a long time, the torch needs to be passed. Because there needs to be a day when niether Cena nor Orton is the champion but both of them are still actively competing. If this day does not come then both Cena and Orton would get extremely stale and the crowd would be tired of seeing them with the championship belt. Cena and Orton will be slowly but surely be pushed into a more HBK like role of a veteran babyface. And when that time comes there isn't exactly anybody as good as Cena or Orton to take their place in the card.

Exactly my point.

The Tier 2 guys were a force to be reckoned with because in essence they were simply an overflow of Tier 1 stars. That's not the case today. To me, guys like Orton, Cena, etc. should be those Tier 2 guys, but because of an utter lack of those over-the-top mega-stars, they are the Tier 1, which makes the Tier 2 a ton of guys who could never in a million years actually be considered Tier 1.

John Morrison as WWE Champion? Daniel Bryan as World Heavyweight Champion? What a joke.

The fact Jack Swagger has a world championship under his belt is pathetic.

 

[klunderbunker]

One major thing to keep in mind is that if you call Hogan, Austin and Rock the three biggest stars of all time (and more or less they are), only Rock was bred to be a superstar. He was brought in and told that he would be the future and would be the biggest star in the world in five years (it took three). I don't think there is any case at all that can be made to argue that he's even in the same universe as the other two in popularity or sheer greatness though, which is exactly my point.

Then you have guys like Austin and Hogan. Neither of these two were supposed to be the next big thing. Hogan was a generic big man when he broke in but the people fell in love with him and Vince had the common sense to listen to them and push him like mad. More than that though, he had the role in Rocky III which made him someone that people wanted to see. The thing is though when he started, he wasn't some huge deal but rather just another guy.

The same is almost true of Austin. Before King of the Ring 96, Austin was a guy that was going to be good and a fairly big deal but no one saw what he would eventually become. He was Stunning Steve and Superstar Steve before he came to WWF and he only got repackaged because his manager left. Austin hit one big promo and found one catchphrase and the people fell in love with him.

The point to this, as you can probably guess, is often times the biggest stars will come out of absolutely nowhere. No one would have guessed Austin and Hogan would have become what they did as it just kind of happened when all the right ingredients came together. What I'm saying is that a lot of the time you can't predict or guess who the next stars will be. A lot of the time they'll surprise you.

Did anyone think Miz, Sheamus and Barrett would be the top heels on Raw in 2010? I saw Sheamus in May of 09 in a dark match and thought he would be gone in 5 months. Miz was a comedy character. Barrett was just another face in the crowd back in OVW. You never know who is going to do what is my point.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

@Ferbian and Paperghost

There is a point that IDR made that I do not think both of you are getting. IDR is talking about how in the past the tier 2 superstars were a force to be reckoned with. There were times in the attitude era when even the Undertaker was feuding with guys like Maven and a very young Jeff Hardy. In short there were times that even someone of Undertaker's stature was working with the midcard or the upper midcard such was the depth of the roster. Its not the case now. There's quite a huge gulf between the tier 1 and the tier 2 guys. Its not like John Morrison can shuffle back and forth between the main event and the midcard like guys like Undertaker and Kane did in the past.

And even if John Cena and Randy Orton are going to be around for a long time, the torch needs to be passed. Because there needs to be a day when niether Cena nor Orton is the champion but both of them are still actively competing. If this day does not come then both Cena and Orton would get extremely stale and the crowd would be tired of seeing them with the championship belt. Cena and Orton will be slowly but surely be pushed into a more HBK like role of a veteran babyface. And when that time comes there isn't exactly anybody as good as Cena or Orton to take their place in the card.

In that case the upper mid-card needs time a few more additions. To be honest if Morrison could spruce his expressions, I have no problem with him being champion. who do we have on the mid-card (Tier 2) at the moment-

Dolph Ziggler
John Morrison
Kofi Kingston
Alberto Del Rio
Dashing Cody Rhodes
Jack Swagger
Daniel Bryan

Ok I see only one who can really, or rather should push for the title and that's Alberto Del Rio. I guess everyone has to be built up, by feuding with top dogs. But ye it's kinda bleak at the moment, but give it a few years, this roster is just filling.

 

[Paul_J_L]

Real, you have to look at the title to understand that you're really answering your own questions.

The two main draws during the Attitude Era was; Stone Cold and The Rock. HHH, Undertaker, Kane, and Jericho were really below those two.

Where are they now?

The Rock permantly retired from in-ring competition in 2004, to proceed into a rather sucessful acting career. Stone Cold had to be forced into retirement, due to a neck injury, and his last in-ring performance was Wrestlemania 19.

HHH was never really on the level of those two, mainly because he is a Heel, a Uber one at that, so how can you get fans to love you if you're always telling them to f-off every 10 seconds.

Undertaker is really only noticed due to his longevity and his "Streak" than anything else really. Kane is still a relative non-factor and is considered a "hit or miss" type of guy to me.

Y2J is practically gone, and is more like HHH. He's way better as a Heel than face, and practically took HHH's place after HHH left, but again, if you don't really have a top face, having an Uber heel doesn't do a damn thing for the guy.

The nWo era was basically old back then! We're talking about why that's the reason that the joke was going around back then about the WCW being a "retirement home". Yes, they had top talent, but all of the top talent was into their mid-30's then.

Now Hogan is way past being an actual wrestler. Flair is a shadow of himself, really, at 62. And his name value has SEVERLY diminished from his "Retirement of Ages" at Wrestlemania 23. Sting didn't really have that much of a name until his "Crow" turn, now he's really about a year, or two, away from fully retiring himself. Nash is retired, Hall is too messed up and his name value looks to have been GREATLY diminished from back then.

Bret Hart SHOULD retire, for his and everyone else's good (I SERIOUSLY don't want to see Bret die in the middle of the ring as a stroke has a STRONG chance of occuring again, and wrestling is a DEMANDING sport).

So, really, with this said, who CAN the current crop of Superstars use to get that all important win off of?

Cena? No. He wasn't that big of a name BEFORE everyone left. He never really got that big win against anyone important, so I could see how people could turn on him.

HBK? Gone. Retired.

Y2J? Almost gone. Should be retired in a couple of years.

Taker? All but retired. If Cena beats him at WM, it will and won't seem like a big deal.

Hogan? Oh GOD no. Too broken down.

Flair? See Hogan.

Sting? See Hogan.

Foley? See Hogan.

Do you see where I'm going here. When Lesnar left, it left a HUGE void in Pro Wrestling, as there really isn't that big name that could be used to propell a guy into a legit main eventer.

That should be the question. Now that there's really no one to help get these younger guys "over", then what CAN you do?

 

[Dagger Dias]

Some of this could honestly be nostalgic inflation. A concept I use when I refer to people making things from the past out to be better than they actually were. Don't get me wrong, the legends from 10 and 20 years ago ARE indeed still legendary. That's not what I meant. Nostalgic inflation does make things out to seem better than they were though. Say you have a great memory of some day in your childhood when so many cool things happened, when in reality you just went to school on another ordinary day and had normal conversations. Nostalgic inflation made that day SEEM awesome when it was just another day. You nostalgically inflated that day to be so much better than it really was. Same concept here. One day we will be looking back and thinking to ourselves "you know what? Guys like John Cena, Randy Orton, AJ Styles, Edge, and Jeff Hardy were pretty awesome!" then immediately afterwards we will wonder why they never "passed the torch" and why the new crop of main eventers suck in comparison. Why? Nostalgic inflation will once again be the culprit because we will remember the matches of today's main eventers to be better than the way we view them today. Think about it, it's true. We all do it.