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Palin Misquote

bshort31092

The Epitome of Multifacetedness
Apparently, Sarah Palin knows the thoughts of everyone. In defending fellow beauty queen, Miss California, Fox News reported that she stated that Pres. Obama and Sec. of State Clinton believed that gay marriage was wrong. Now, last time I checked, most from the Democratic Party support gay marriage, or don't care.

What I have observed is that Republicans tend to win voters over with issues that aren't really related to government, like gay marriage and abortion and religion. I wonder does anyone agree with me?
 
Apparently, Sarah Palin knows the thoughts of everyone. In defending fellow beauty queen, Miss California, Fox News reported that she stated that Pres. Obama and Sec. of State Clinton believed that gay marriage was wrong. Now, last time I checked, most from the Democratic Party support gay marriage, or don't care.

What I have observed is that Republicans tend to win voters over with issues that aren't really related to government, like gay marriage and abortion and religion. I wonder does anyone agree with me?

I don't know that I agree with ya, but I can almost see where you're coming from. I think all Palins quote amounts to is 1 of 2 things. She either a) misspoke, or b) was trying to tow the Party Line. Also, I don't recall either individual coming out in absolute support of gay marriage. She may have taken that to mean they had reservations about it.

The thing that gets me is you claiming that none of the issues you mentioned have anything to do with government. Morality should, and as far as I'm concerned, is very much related to the gov't. Religion, I'll grant you to an extent. But, this nation was founded by Christians, with those morals in mind. Granted, abortion wasn't such a big issue in the formative years, but it is now. Gay marriage/relationships are strictly forbidden in the Holy Bible, the cornerstone of the Judeo-Christian faith. What the Republican party purports is a Christian stance, so naturally they'll bring these issues to the forefront. And they should.


As an aside, I'm neither Republican nor Christian, I just understand both stances, and agree on a few of them. Same goes with Democrats.
 
Obama and Clinton did both come out against gay marriage during the campaign.


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Supporting civil unions is a way of saying that you oppose gay marriage. The civil unions are what have the gay community in an uproar. They feel that if they get civil unions, why are they not recognized as married by the state.

Obama's answer was, "Ummmmm."
 
See, I think Obama put it the right way. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman, thats what marriage is. Hell, its heavily tied into religion. I don't see how these people can want to do something, and be associated with something, that is completely against what they ware; its moronic. I in no way have a problem with gay people, nor do I think they shouldn't be together. But it'd be like me going to the NAACP and expectin' to get all the help they can get, it just wouldn't happen.
 
I hate Sarah Palin with a passion, she's such a stupid ****e. If I could get away with killing her, I probably would. Okay I wouldn't, but I still hate her a hell of a lot.

I don't really care about the difference between gay marriage and Civil Unions. I'm not opposed to gays being allowed to be 'married', - if they're allowd the same rights as male/female couples there shouldn't really be a problem. All they want is the title 'married' - why is that such a big deal to everyone?
 
I hate Sarah Palin with a passion, she's such a stupid ****e.

What a wonderfully productive viewpoint! I love all the reasons you give why she is. She is so stupid she is elected Governess of an oil rich, strategically important state. She is so stupid she was on a Presidential ticket. If nothing else this illustrates why a woman will never be President. Women have nothing but blind hatred for each other. But let's move on? Why is she a stupid ****e? Because she's a Christian Consverative? The world wide backlash against values on God is laughable. Now, before you say that you have no problem with God or religion, go ack and read your posts. You have no problem with God, yet you are against all politicians and policies which reflect Godliness and conservatism. She's not a stupid ****e. She's a powerful woman who got thrown into a limelight she wasn't ready for.
If I could get away with killing her, I probably would. Okay I wouldn't, but I still hate her a hell of a lot.

But only because she's a stupid ****e, because policy wise, I doubt you can find a problem.

I don't really care about the difference between gay marriage and Civil Unions. I'm not opposed to gays being allowed to be 'married', - if they're allowd the same rights as male/female couples there shouldn't really be a problem. All they want is the title 'married' - why is that such a big deal to everyone?

The burden of proof exist on the side of gay marriage. No one on that side gives any reasons why the law should change. It is just name calling and whining. What benefits to society does this legal change make? It goes against the will of the people, so there must be some overriding societal benefit, right? Isn't there? No? See, you can't just go around changing laws because someone has a problem with it.

And if the word "married" isn't such a big deal, then why do they want it bad enough to bad mouth every woman who has a problem with gay marriage? Posting nudie pics, calling names, these are petty potshots, not real political discourse. Maybe if their side could organize and espouse the values of the happy gay family, some movement could be made. Instead, that side feels that showing Carrie Prejean's tits is a good enough argument to legalize gay marriage.
 
The thing that gets me is you claiming that none of the issues you mentioned have anything to do with government. Morality should, and as far as I'm concerned, is very much related to the gov't. QUOTE]

I mean how people align themselves as Republicans or Democrats because of abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research instead of what those two parties stand for, more or less government control.
 
What a wonderfully productive viewpoint! I love all the reasons you give why she is. She is so stupid she is elected Governess of an oil rich, strategically important state. She is so stupid she was on a Presidential ticket. If nothing else this illustrates why a woman will never be President. Women have nothing but blind hatred for each other. But let's move on? Why is she a stupid ****e? Because she's a Christian Consverative? The world wide backlash against values on God is laughable. Now, before you say that you have no problem with God or religion, go ack and read your posts. You have no problem with God, yet you are against all politicians and policies which reflect Godliness and conservatism. She's not a stupid ****e. She's a powerful woman who got thrown into a limelight she wasn't ready for.


But only because she's a stupid ****e, because policy wise, I doubt you can find a problem.

Ah no, I do think she's stupid though. Except if I explain why, it'll make this thread off-topic, as my reasoning has nothing to do with gay marriage, and it would, instead, turn into an abortion debate. See why I didn't explain it now?

The burden of proof exist on the side of gay marriage. No one on that side gives any reasons why the law should change. It is just name calling and whining. What benefits to society does this legal change make? It goes against the will of the people, so there must be some overriding societal benefit, right? Isn't there? No? See, you can't just go around changing laws because someone has a problem with it.

And if the word "married" isn't such a big deal, then why do they want it bad enough to bad mouth every woman who has a problem with gay marriage? Posting nudie pics, calling names, these are petty potshots, not real political discourse. Maybe if their side could organize and espouse the values of the happy gay family, some movement could be made. Instead, that side feels that showing Carrie Prejean's tits is a good enough argument to legalize gay marriage.

I don't even know who the hell she is. But at the end of the day, I simply wonder why the title means so much, to either side. I'm for legalising gay marriage, because I see no problem with it, it's not going to affect anyone unless you're gay, so why argue it so much?
 
So, if it's not going to effect anyone, why is it such a big deal that we go and change laws? Why do we need to add more paperwork and more bureaucracy if it's not a big deal? You can't just go changing laws because someone is unhappy. There are no good reasons to make it legal. There is no benefit to society to make it legal. All it does is please a group of immature, name calling, whiners.
 
So, if it's not going to effect anyone, why is it such a big deal that we go and change laws? Why do we need to add more paperwork and more bureaucracy if it's not a big deal? You can't just go changing laws because someone is unhappy. There are no good reasons to make it legal. There is no benefit to society to make it legal. All it does is please a group of immature, name calling, whiners.

'Tis a good point, but I just don't see the harm it'll do. Legalising gay marriage won't affect anyone who isn't gay, yet it'll make a group of people happier. There isn't negative effects to any mature person, so I just don't understand why people are so against it.
 
What I have observed is that Republicans tend to win voters over with issues that aren't really related to government, like gay marriage and abortion and religion. I wonder does anyone agree with me?

^^^This...or at least, they used to.

Republicans were really guilty of this years ago. What? We're in a war? Nope, it isn't that bad, abortions are being committed everyday within our borders! Gays are getting married! AHHHH!

They've shaped up as of now, seeing as though they have the ballooning deficit to latch onto. Sad thing is, they've shaped up just in time for the Democrats to start encroaching into the realm of the irrelevant. Who cares who knew about torturing? Sure, we know it's wrong. We can wait to worry about it for another 2 years, once Obama has the economy and wars under control. Who cares about gay marriage? There are two wars and a plummeting economy to contend with! Gay marriage can wait. It's not like the issues will disappear. Trust me. One thing we Americans know how to do is hold onto an issue long after it has lost all relevance.

Though, you need to watch it. Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh and Dick Cheney won't hesitate to start whining about stupid shit. Watch for the responsible, intelligent Republicans who are bringing up legitimate answers to the budget/other important issues. Democrats aren't innocent either, but the really far right, really religiously conservative Republicans eat the irrelevant shit up. It works, so they use it.
 
However, the sad thing is that the Republican figureheads are far right. Palin, Romney, Huckabee, Limbaugh, Jindal, and Coulter. The only one who really isn't is Steele. My friend who is Republican says that the Republicans that he talks to don't support any of the above except Steele. I think the GOP is heading downhill, starting with the existence of Fox News. If the almost facist Fox News was taken off the air, the Republicans would seem a lot less like a bunch of idiots attacking Obama.
 
However, the sad thing is that the Republican figureheads are far right. Palin, Romney, Huckabee, Limbaugh, Jindal, and Coulter. The only one who really isn't is Steele. My friend who is Republican says that the Republicans that he talks to don't support any of the above except Steele. I think the GOP is heading downhill, starting with the existence of Fox News. If the almost facist Fox News was taken off the air, the Republicans would seem a lot less like a bunch of idiots attacking Obama.

And Democratic figureheads aren't far left? Are you calling Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and Sorros moderates? Really?

And calling Fox fascist shows more of your ignorance. Liberal think tanks praise Fox for it's fairness.

If you want an opinionated news source that is unfair, look at MSNBC. Fox's viewership is 39% Conservative and 31% liberal with the rest not identifying with a party.

I mean, you were a good little liberal. You insulted Coulter, Limbaugh, and Fox News, so I think you get your free abortion coupon now.

Give me a break. The liberals in this country are the ones who think showing pics of Carrie Prejeans's titties is a good argument in favor of gay marriage.

Get over yourself liberal. This isn't a socialist nation, and all the work you wonderful Democrats do will be turned back when Hussein Obama loses in three years.
 
And calling Fox fascist shows more of your ignorance. Liberal think tanks praise Fox for it's fairness.

If you want an opinionated news source that is unfair, look at MSNBC. Fox's viewership is 39% Conservative and 31% liberal with the rest not identifying with a party.

Come on now FTS, you're a smart guy, you have to see the fact that Fox News is hopelessly biased. MSNBC is extremely biased as well towards the left, but come on man you only have to watch Fox for about 10 minutes to see how biased they are. Do they even have a single liberal commentator or newscaster? I know they used to have Alan Colmes, but he left didn't he? I mean come on, you watch an episode of Hannity or O'Reilly and it's just the most biased, partisan hackjobs I've ever seen.

Honestly I can't think of a single really fair news network in the US. I don't know, maybe ABC? I don't usually watch their news, so I wouldn't know.

Get over yourself liberal. This isn't a socialist nation, and all the work you wonderful Democrats do will be turned back when Hussein Obama loses in three years.

C'mon man, you're better then that. You can't criticize him for resorting to the usual liberal cliches of insulting Coulter and whatnot, and then resort to classic conservative cliches like referring to liberals as "commies". I mean dude that's just literally like the OLDEST trick in the book.
 
My friend seems to have issues with other radical Republicans, mainly because he has common sense. Obama is really more moderate than most. Until we live in communes feeding out the same food source, he is not as communist as it gets. First I want to know where you got the statistic where 30% of Fox viewers don't declare their party. Link it. And just because they have viewers of both parties, doesn't mean that they are unbiased. I watch Fox News sometimes because I like hearing the garbage the Hannity and O'Reilly are spewing.

Finally, as far as the "socialist" work being undone in three years. How many of our past conservative presidents have royally screwed up our economy? Do the names Bush and Reagan ring a bell?
 
Come on now FTS, you're a smart guy, you have to see the fact that Fox News is hopelessly biased. MSNBC is extremely biased as well towards the left, but come on man you only have to watch Fox for about 10 minutes to see how biased they are. Do they even have a single liberal commentator or newscaster? I know they used to have Alan Colmes, but he left didn't he? I mean come on, you watch an episode of Hannity or O'Reilly and it's just the most biased, partisan hackjobs I've ever seen.

The commentary is biased to the right. I will never argue that it isn't. According to Murdoch, it was designed that way. It's the reporting that is more fair. MSNBC and CNN both ignored the Ayers connection, which you have to admit is a little fishy.


Honestly I can't think of a single really fair news network in the US. I don't know, maybe ABC? I don't usually watch their news, so I wouldn't know.

ABC is just as bad. Even PBS is biased. Honestly, the fairest publication I come across is The Wall Street Journal.
C'mon man, you're better then that. You can't criticize him for resorting to the usual liberal cliches of insulting Coulter and whatnot, and then resort to classic conservative cliches like referring to liberals as "commies". I mean dude that's just literally like the OLDEST trick in the book.

I don't think all liberals are commies, I just think that the ones in power are. Control of the banks, firing GM's CEO, these are not action of a responsible capitalist democracy. Next up is national health care. Every aspect of our life seems to be heading towards a socialist agenda designed to disintegrate all the principles of America. I see that it seems to be popular is Europe, yet that entire continent produces nothing. Inflation is at an all time high, and the unemployment rates in Europe are rising faster than our own.
 
My friend seems to have issues with other radical Republicans, mainly because he has common sense. Obama is really more moderate than most.

Except that he was rated the second most liberal senator in his thirty minutes in the Senate. But hey, your opinion matters more than facts right?
Until we live in communes feeding out the same food source, he is not as communist as it gets.

He ordered Wells Fargo to cut the stock share dividend from thirty four cents per share to five cents per share. They were being punished for being financially solvent. In the reorganization of the auto companies, the UAW gets 20% of the company without having to buy shares. They just get it. These are the troughs that Obama is feeding his supporters out of. We don't need to all live on farms to live in a backwards society where hard work and innovation and practical business decision making is not rewarded. I wouldn't exactly call Adam Smith Laissez-faire capitalism to cap compensation for executives.
First I want to know where you got the statistic where 30% of Fox viewers don't declare their party. Link it.

Their commercial. If you don't buy it, you go find it.
And just because they have viewers of both parties, doesn't mean that they are unbiased.

Their commentary is what it is, and was designed that way. Watch some news shows in the morning instead of commentary. The stories are always balanced. Here's an example of how fair Fox is. During the last ten years, their left leaning guests include the chairman of the Democratic party, Terry McAuliffe, and campaign managers for the top tier candidates, regularly. MSNBC features Pat Buchanan, who hasn't been a serious member of the party in 15 years. I don't even know who CNN's go to conservative is. You can watch all the garbage from Hannity and O'Reilly all you want. I just figure that someone like would appreciate the hate that Olberman and Matthews spew. But hey, it's cool. Some people jsut can't watch the news unless it's a Sportscenter anchor giving it to them. It makes it seem more professional. I wonder what Sal Masakela is up to these days.
I watch Fox News sometimes because I like hearing the garbage the Hannity and O'Reilly are spewing.

Finally, as far as the "socialist" work being undone in three years. How many of our past conservative presidents have royally screwed up our economy? Do the names Bush and Reagan ring a bell?

Ronald Reagan brought unprecedented wealth into the country. Don't you think there's a reason that Bill Clinton never changed any economic policy except to expand the global empire Reagan started.

And blaming Bush for economic troubles that began back in 1998 with the deregulation of the power companies is suspect. The housing bubble was created when Fannie and Freddie were made government backed quasi-governmental institutions, in the 90's. Bush did a lot to push the ownership society, and perhaps contributed to people buying houses when they didn't deserve to own one, but if he hadn't done that, you just would have called him racist. Everything was lose lose for him from the get go because the left didn't like that he lawfully won an election in 2000.
 
It is on a very rare occassion that Sarah Palin is not quoted as saying something stupid. I think it just so bad that she has turned around and accused the Democrats of being anti-gay marriage when in 2004, the Republican platform expressed support for the Federal Marriage Amendment to the United States Constitution to define marriage as exclusively between one man and one woman. I just think it is a little bit of a swerve on Palin's part.

It's like saying, "Yeah so what if we are anti-gay marriage, so are they!" It's pathetic. She is even more pathetic for opposing state-covered health and retiree benfits to same sex couples. She may have vetoed it but still the point stands. She also supported the FMA. The woman has no right to be calling out other people for being anti- same sex marriage. Obama may be against gay marriage but in my opinion he will do his utmost to help in grow.
 
The commentary is biased to the right. I will never argue that it isn't. According to Murdoch, it was designed that way. It's the reporting that is more fair. MSNBC and CNN both ignored the Ayers connection, which you have to admit is a little fishy.

You mean the Ayers-Obama connection? Did they really? You really can't trust any American news source these days, the only news organization I put a bit of faith into is the BBC, because they don't have any reason to be biased to the left or right when it comes to reporting US news.

As for the whole Bill Ayers thing...not that big a deal in my opinion. I'm sure that might irk you, but despite the Weathermen's total and complete soiling of the principles of anarchism, I really don't think just be assosciated with a former member reflects poorly on Obama. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find unsavory connections in virtually every politician's past.

ABC is just as bad. Even PBS is biased. Honestly, the fairest publication I come across is The Wall Street Journal.

I'm not shocked at all that PBS is biased, very left-leaning network. I don't read the Journal, mainly because I'm not exactly a business buff.

I don't think all liberals are commies, I just think that the ones in power are.

LOL, come on man! Don't do that! There's no evidence to support that claim at all. First off, and this is something that gets lost every time in the whole "Obama is a Commie" thing, is that theres a very large difference between communism and socialism (make up your mind neo-cons, first he's a socialist, then a communist, now a fascist?).

Furthermore...contrary to the slogan of modern conservatives, small bits of socialism being introduced to our government is NOT a bad thing. Forget all the taboo negative connotations surronding the world "socialism", one or two socialist policies is not going to enslave the American people to a Stalin-esque leader who will set up gulags around the country. We could take some serious cues from some of the socialist policies of countries like Sweden.

But honestly, I'm not sure I understand the actual argument of how Obama is a "communist". I'm not trying to be confrontational, but could you please explain to me why you believe he is a Communist?

But come on man, calling all liberals in power communists is just absurd. You're saying that every member of the Democratic party is actually a member of a giant underground Communist conspiracy to take over our nation and turn it into a Communist dictatorship? Do I even have to point out how ridiculious that sounds?

Control of the banks, firing GM's CEO, these are not action of a responsible capitalist democracy.

Actually quite the opposite, they are exactly the actions of a responsible capitalist democracy. The entire reason those CEO's were fired and those banks were taken control of was to try and put our capitalist economy back on track. Obama isn't doing these things so he can roll out a wealth redistribution plan, he's doing these things because he honestly thinks they can put our economy back on track. Whether or not he succeeds in that attempt is unknown, we'll just have to wait and see.

I won't touch on my personal opinions about capitalism however, that's a debate for another day.

Next up is national health care. Every aspect of our life seems to be heading towards a socialist agenda designed to disintegrate all the principles of America. I see that it seems to be popular is Europe, yet that entire continent produces nothing. Inflation is at an all time high, and the unemployment rates in Europe are rising faster than our own.

I'd hardly call two or three examples a correct representation of "every aspect of our life". I'll wait for your reply kind sir on how you believe Obama is sending us towards communism.

Also, forgive me, but I don't quite understand how you jumped from national health care to inflation and economic issues.
 
You mean the Ayers-Obama connection? Did they really? You really can't trust any American news source these days, the only news organization I put a bit of faith into is the BBC, because they don't have any reason to be biased to the left or right when it comes to reporting US news.

As for the whole Bill Ayers thing...not that big a deal in my opinion. I'm sure that might irk you, but despite the Weathermen's total and complete soiling of the principles of anarchism, I really don't think just be assosciated with a former member reflects poorly on Obama. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find unsavory connections in virtually every politician's past.

But you find bomb makers in every politicians past. I think the Ayers connection was the most important unreported story. The Rev. Wright thing was a problem for me, but in the end no one can control a preacher with a vendetta. That's what they do, by definition, preach. The Ayers connection is a problem though. The guy admits to bombing the Capitol and I think it was the NYPD. He didn't get his way, so he moved onto politics, and handpicked his candidate to go overthrow the capitalist "pigs." I see that connection as fishy, at best, and detrimental at worst.

If George Bush's political career had been started and funded by Neo-Nazis, that would have been front page news, and Keith Olberman would have been jacking off while reading the nightly story.

I'm not shocked at all that PBS is biased, very left-leaning network. I don't read the Journal, mainly because I'm not exactly a business buff.

The Journal is good at reporting beyond business. USA today is a newspaper with a fairly extensive Business section, whereas the Journal is a business paper with a fairly extensive News section.


LOL, come on man! Don't do that! There's no evidence to support that claim at all. First off, and this is something that gets lost every time in the whole "Obama is a Commie" thing, is that theres a very large difference between communism and socialism (make up your mind neo-cons, first he's a socialist, then a communist, now a fascist?).

I love political word bingo. I can count on the left to bring up Coulter and Limbaugh, and they can count on us to say commie and secularist. And communism or socialism both seem like bad ideas to me. I think we should let the market control our economy. Let these companies fail. There would be enough out of work millionaires to start some new businesses and hire all those who lost their jobs.
Furthermore...contrary to the slogan of modern conservatives, small bits of socialism being introduced to our government is NOT a bad thing.

The first quasi-socialist move was backing Freddie and Fannie. The home loan industry was semi-socialist. The government got to set the rules, and in returen, backed all the loans. That didn't work too well. It was the first industry to collapse, and brought down the rest of the house of cards with it. Both sides got to try and run Freddie and Fannie, and both sides failed miserably.
Forget all the taboo negative connotations surronding the world "socialism", one or two socialist policies is not going to enslave the American people to a Stalin-esque leader who will set up gulags around the country. We could take some serious cues from some of the socialist policies of countries like Sweden.

I would like to take our cues from Reagan. Cut taxes on corporations, allow them to use this extra money to a. hire people, b. innovate, c. give raises, d. pay higher dividends to shareholders, or, e. expand.

It's not even the control that bothers me. It's that the American government has an unmatched record of inefficiency, and having them run industry seems like quite an expensive task. Who gets to shoulder this expense? Us! And it will manifest through higher taxes, or if they want to be sneaky, higher prices. Obama can take control, and lower taxes to pander. Instead, he can raise prices, slightly, on all goods to compensate, while taxing the rich out of pure spite.
But honestly, I'm not sure I understand the actual argument of how Obama is a "communist". I'm not trying to be confrontational, but could you please explain to me why you believe he is a Communist?

Socialist, Communist just provides more punch. I don't think you can deny his socialist tendencies.
But come on man, calling all liberals in power communists is just absurd.

Calling Nancy Pelosi anything negative is not absurd. She is a liar, she is an unrepentant hypocrite, and frankly, I do not like the idea of her having any power at all.
You're saying that every member of the Democratic party is actually a member of a giant underground Communist conspiracy to take over our nation and turn it into a Communist dictatorship?

Just Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Frank, Clinton, and the top people. I like some democrats. And besides, giving the UAW 20% of Chrysler can easily be interpreted as the beginnings of a socialist workers party.
Do I even have to point out how ridiculious that sounds?

You already did. ^^^^^^


Actually quite the opposite, they are exactly the actions of a responsible capitalist democracy. The entire reason those CEO's were fired and those banks were taken control of was to try and put our capitalist economy back on track.

I think it would be more responsible to let those companies fail. I think you save the top banks, and let the FDIC pay out the other accounts. I have trouble thinking that the Auto companies would have gotten bailouts if Union members voted Republican.
Obama isn't doing these things so he can roll out a wealth redistribution plan, he's doing these things because he honestly thinks they can put our economy back on track. Whether or not he succeeds in that attempt is unknown, we'll just have to wait and see.

I disagree. Wealth distribution has been a central tenant of his policies since day one. Once again, he gave 20% of Chrysler to the UAW. How does that happen in a truly capitalist society? Congress' job is to regulate interstate commerce through taxation and law enforcement, not to decide who profits from that interstate commerce.
I won't touch on my personal opinions about capitalism however, that's a debate for another day.

Love it or hate, it's what we've got.


I'd hardly call two or three examples a correct representation of "every aspect of our life".

The banking industry is a very all-encompassing entity. Ordering Wells Fargo to reduce dividends, firing GM's CEO, not allowing businesses to advertise how they wish or have conferences, or limiting salaries. All of these push the best and brightest out of the private sector, and into government jobs. Every time a bureaucrat gets a parking spot, a true capitalist dies a bit inside.
I'll wait for your reply kind sir on how you believe Obama is sending us towards communism.

See above.
Also, forgive me, but I don't quite understand how you jumped from national health care to inflation and economic issues.

The other guy blamed Bush and Reagan for all of our economic troubles, while glossing over how Clinton gave China MFN trading status and doubled our trade deficit. I am willing to blame Bush for a lot, but I won't do it while glossing over the way Clinton set the economy on fire and played his fiddle as it burned under Bush.
 
But you find bomb makers in every politicians past. I think the Ayers connection was the most important unreported story. The Rev. Wright thing was a problem for me, but in the end no one can control a preacher with a vendetta. That's what they do, by definition, preach. The Ayers connection is a problem though. The guy admits to bombing the Capitol and I think it was the NYPD. He didn't get his way, so he moved onto politics, and handpicked his candidate to go overthrow the capitalist "pigs." I see that connection as fishy, at best, and detrimental at worst.

But the Ayers connection isn't really even a connection. It's guilt by association. It's not as though Obama personally helped/contributed/supported in any way what the Weathermen did. They were in the same anti-poverty group and lived close by to each other, but it shouldn't be too surprising that a University of Illinois-Chicago professor and a Chicago politician would both be in an anti-poverty group. You can't fault Obama for that, he didn't choose Ayers as a member or anything. The connection was totally irrelevent to the election.

If George Bush's political career had been started and funded by Neo-Nazis, that would have been front page news, and Keith Olberman would have been jacking off while reading the nightly story.

You're completely right FTS, a large portion of the US media leans to the left (which shouldn't be much of a shocker either considering the political leanings that usually inspire someone to become a journalist in the first place are typically liberal) and if neo-Nazis had funded Bush it and has been on a similiar panel with him it probably would've been front page news. Doesn't mean it would make Bush a neo-Nazi (and this is coming from your stereotypical Bush hater).

I don't watch Olbermann for hard groundbreaking news, the only time I watch his show is for entertainment. The guy's pretty funny and is a great commentator.

I love political word bingo. I can count on the left to bring up Coulter and Limbaugh, and they can count on us to say commie and secularist.

Exactly why we should try to not fall into those old patterns which inevitably will lead to a stalemate/insult fest.

And communism or socialism both seem like bad ideas to me.

Socialism and communism are very different however, and the continual clumping of those two terms together is unfair. It's akin to me using Republican and Fascism together, they're obviously very different.

Communism has never worked, nor will it ever work. It's far too easily corrupted, the Soviet Union showed us that pretty clearly. The basic foundation of original Communism naively bought into an idea that relied on people overcoming greed. Obviously humanity will always have greed, so the system was bound to fail, as it did.

Modern socialism however is very different from your garden brand Soviet Russia. First off let me just say that when I refer to socialism, that does not include countries like Venezuela who have already made the exact same mistakes the Communists in Russia did. I'm speaking of what is actually democratic-socialism. I don't support a fully socialist state, as that again would inevitably lead to the same failures of the USSR. What I'm referring to would probably be best described by the country of Sweden's government. So in truth, I really mean Democratic/Libertarian-Socialist. Libertarian-Socialism is what modern socialism has truly evolved into, and not the Marxist teachings of the original movement.

I think we should let the market control our economy. Let these companies fail. There would be enough out of work millionaires to start some new businesses and hire all those who lost their jobs.

I don't claim to understand the ins and outs of economics, so I'm not going to go into a debate I know little about with you. But I will say that just letting these companies fail seems like a bad idea to me. We can't rely on what we think might happen to those CEOs, a wait-and-see attitude just seems like it's only delaying a problem to me. But again, no economics major here.


The first quasi-socialist move was backing Freddie and Fannie. The home loan industry was semi-socialist. The government got to set the rules, and in returen, backed all the loans. That didn't work too well. It was the first industry to collapse, and brought down the rest of the house of cards with it. Both sides got to try and run Freddie and Fannie, and both sides failed miserably.

I agree with you completely that the government should stay out of the market, but the government's involvement in the home loan industry is the exact opposite of what Libertarian-Socialism is about. One of the main ideas of the movement is the rejection of the government controlling the economy.


Id like to take our cues from Reagan. Cut taxes on corporations, allow them to use this extra money to a. hire people, b. innovate, c. give raises, d. pay higher dividends to shareholders, or, e. expand.

But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that the same system that we have been taking cues from for the past 20 odd years? Hasn't that system led us to this?

It's not even the control that bothers me. It's that the American government has an unmatched record of inefficiency, and having them run industry seems like quite an expensive task. Who gets to shoulder this expense? Us! And it will manifest through higher taxes, or if they want to be sneaky, higher prices. Obama can take control, and lower taxes to pander. Instead, he can raise prices, slightly, on all goods to compensate, while taxing the rich out of pure spite.

The taxes on the rich I don't mind, probably because I'm not rich. But really, with the dire need for money right now in our country, why not tax those who are more then well equipped to ride out this economic storm? These taxes aren't exactly bankrupting any millionaires.

Socialist, Communist just provides more punch. I don't think you can deny his socialist tendencies.

That it does, because any time the word Communist is used the American brain automatically pictures the KGB and Viet Cong eating babies or something to that effect. That's why I think the word communist should be taken out of this debate, and replaced by the more appropriate socialist.

Calling Nancy Pelosi anything negative is not absurd. She is a liar, she is an unrepentant hypocrite, and frankly, I do not like the idea of her having any power at all.

Absolutely no disagreements there, Nancy Pelosi is nothing more then a puppet. The recent chatter about her knowledge and support of torture is definitive proof of that. She's the main example of why I stopped supporting Democrats years ago, because they're usually full of empty promises. That's when I realized that both parties were full of hypocrites and liars. I prefer to choose politicians themselves, and not blindly support or hate them because of a letter next to their name.

Just Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Frank, Clinton, and the top people. I like some democrats. And besides, giving the UAW 20% of Chrysler can easily be interpreted as the beginnings of a socialist workers party.

Come on now, the first socialist workers party? That's a bit of hyperbole. Until I see actual intent by any of these groups to committ to a socialist political agenda, it's unfair to label them as socialists.

I think it would be more responsible to let those companies fail. I think you save the top banks, and let the FDIC pay out the other accounts. I have trouble thinking that the Auto companies would have gotten bailouts if Union members voted Republican.

I'm not gonna attempt to debate you about economics, because like I've already mentioned that's one field I'm lost in.

I disagree. Wealth distribution has been a central tenant of his policies since day one. Once again, he gave 20% of Chrysler to the UAW. How does that happen in a truly capitalist society? Congress' job is to regulate interstate commerce through taxation and law enforcement, not to decide who profits from that interstate commerce.


See my previous response.

The banking industry is a very all-encompassing entity. Ordering Wells Fargo to reduce dividends, firing GM's CEO, not allowing businesses to advertise how they wish or have conferences, or limiting salaries. All of these push the best and brightest out of the private sector, and into government jobs. Every time a bureaucrat gets a parking spot, a true capitalist dies a bit inside.


See above.


The other guy blamed Bush and Reagan for all of our economic troubles, while glossing over how Clinton gave China MFN trading status and doubled our trade deficit. I am willing to blame Bush for a lot, but I won't do it while glossing over the way Clinton set the economy on fire and played his fiddle as it burned under Bush.

More agreement with you in that second paragraph. Clinton was a very overrated president, though he was unfairly maligned I think because of the whole Lewinsky scandal. His presidency wasn't a complete failure, like I believe Bush's was.

But again, government control of the facets of our economy is not what modern socialism is about. Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro do not represent the true modern socialism, they represent the misguided Communism with near fascist leanings of the old world. Remember that.
 
I am just going to crystallize the arguments so we can move on to the next fascism vs. communism argument centered around something that has nothing to do with either. This started as a Sarah Palin topic. :lmao: Blame me for the trainwreck.

I think the Ayers connection is important because my interpretation isn't that they were united by fate and circumstance. At least, the partnership didn't come about that way. I think that Ayers exerts influence over Obama. Ayers gave him a start in politics, and I think that Ayers agenda is up front. It started with the education collective in Chicago, pushing radicalism on students, and igniting revolution is Ayers biggest goal. To think that this friendship doesn't weigh on Obama's decisions now seems naive.

As far as European socialism goes, I think that the loss of economic power in many of the EU nations illustrates its troubles. The diversified economy in America presents more problems. There are no government run industries right now. Actual companies would have to be taken away from shareholders. Do you expect the government to pay a fair price? If your answer is yes, then we will be paying out the nose for these companies. If the answer is no, then the shareholders are getting screwed right off the bat in a system which is supposed to promote fairness.

Even more modern forms of socialism seem to promote chaos. Everything is a democracy in modern socialism, even the workplace. At this point, the need for enforcement mechanisms becomes necessary. At that point, that IS government control of business entities.

Like I have said, the auto industry is being taken from shareholders and given to the unions. I just think that is seems to be a reward for support. I usually don't mind a bit of nepotism. I think people who stand by you should be rewarded, if for no other reason, your friends will tell you when you are being a jackass, instead of being sycophants. I just think that rewarding with 20% of a car company is a little different than putting someone in charge of FEMA.
 
I am just going to crystallize the arguments so we can move on to the next fascism vs. communism argument centered around something that has nothing to do with either. This started as a Sarah Palin topic. :lmao: Blame me for the trainwreck.

It's okay, every political debate on here these days quickly descends into an Obama hate or love fest, it's bound to happen.

I think the Ayers connection is important because my interpretation isn't that they were united by fate and circumstance. At least, the partnership didn't come about that way.[/quote]

What partnership? They were never partners of any kind, they were both on a 10 person anti-poverty group, helping poor families. They weren't business partners or partners in anything.

I think that Ayers exerts influence over Obama.

How? Aside from the group in Chicago and living nearby to each other once, they have no other connection. There's no evidence to support that claim.

Ayers gave him a start in politics, and I think that Ayers agenda is up front.

How did Ayers give him a start in politics? I'd hardly call a $200 donation a major contributing factor. Ayers didn't give Obama his start in politics, they hardly know each other.

It started with the education collective in Chicago, pushing radicalism on students, and igniting revolution is Ayers biggest goal. To think that this friendship doesn't weigh on Obama's decisions now seems naive.

Whether Ayers personal goal is to "ignite revolution" as you claim is debateable. I doubt he's come out and said he wants to overthrow the government since he left the Weathermen, if anything the man has sold out most of his original principals to get to where he is now.

As for your economic comments...man I'm not even going to try to debate you on that one. You seem to be very knowledgable about economics, so I'm sure I wouldn't be a very worthy opponent, so I'll just stick to the Ayers comments. Not sure how we got economics into this in the first place...or Ayers...or really anything we're now debating, lol.
 
I agree that everything turns into an Obama love or hatefest. I find it interesting as to how we got two completely different stories on Ayers and Obama. I read an article months ago, and if I can find it again, that showed that they were on several boards together, including one that worked for Chicago's schools. It said that Obama was chairman of that board, but the decisions were made by a small group that included Ayers.

There was another CNN article about their connection.

And then there were a bunch of articles about Hillary Clinton planting the information.

Either way, I just think the guy has too many skeletons, too many people who he takes advise from who turn up questionable. I'm sure I am exaggerating it to an extent, but if I was going to pick a guy to be my puppet, a young, good looking guy that comes from an impoverished background.....Obama would be my guy.

But I enjoyed this, as always. I think the true winner here is civility!
 
I agree that everything turns into an Obama love or hatefest. I find it interesting as to how we got two completely different stories on Ayers and Obama. I read an article months ago, and if I can find it again, that showed that they were on several boards together, including one that worked for Chicago's schools. It said that Obama was chairman of that board, but the decisions were made by a small group that included Ayers.

I was mainly using the Washington Post and the BBC. The Post because it turned up first in a quick search and the BBC because that's my usual standby. Anyways, the articles I was referring to said that the only actual hard facts were that they were both on an Anti-Poverty group together and also used to live nearby eachother in Chicago, and that Ayers contributed $200 bucks to Obama's campaign. If it went further then that, then I guess I'm misinformed. I still don't think Obama is taking any influence from Ayers in any way though.

Either way, I just think the guy has too many skeletons, too many people who he takes advise from who turn up questionable. I'm sure I am exaggerating it to an extent, but if I was going to pick a guy to be my puppet, a young, good looking guy that comes from an impoverished background.....Obama would be my guy.

That's the thing though, I don't think I've ever seen any proof that Obama has been taking advice from any of these skeletons in his closet. I don't recall him ever taking cues from Jeremiah Wright or Bill Ayers.

Besides, virtually every politician has skeletons in his closet, to achieve any success in the field of politics you have to both mingle with unsavory characters and compromise some of your own beliefs.

But I enjoyed this, as always. I think the true winner here is civility!

I know man, civility! I love it, you've honestly got to be the first person I've had a series of debates with where both parties were civil and respectful. Usually I end up turning into a mean-spirited jerk, but I'm trying to work on that. I did slip up the other day though when replying to Justin in the Bob Dylan thread. He gets on my nerves more then anyone else here, but hopefully I can resist becoming bitter with him again.
 

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