[Official] Team Japan Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Wrestlezolympics '10' started by Cena's Little Helper, Oct 21, 2009.

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Who Represents Team Japan?

  1. Mitsuharu Misawa

  2. Antonio Inoki

  3. Rikidozan

  4. Kenta Kobashi

  5. Giant Baba

  6. Genichiro Tenryu

  7. Keiji Mutoh

  8. Kensuke Sasake

  9. Hiroshi Hase

  10. Tatsumi Fujinami

  11. Yokozuna

  12. Toshiaki Kawada

  13. Hayabusa

  14. Tiger Mask

  15. Jushin Liger

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    For the Wrestlezolympics, NJPW, AJPW, HUSTLE, NOAH, and sundry other promotions have agreed to put aside their differences to fight the good fight for Japan! Discuss all things related to the great men from the Land of the Rising Sun here.
     
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  2. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    This is the HQ for discussion on Team Japan.

    This is a non-spam thread! If you wish to discuss team Japan, who should be on the team, etc. please make sure you back up your point. Lists and one-sentence answers that do not contribute to the conversation will be warned.

    Sigs will be available once the members of Team Japan are announced in mid-November.
     
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  3. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I don't think anyone but Mitsuharu Misawa should be considered for captain of Team Japan this year. Yes, this is the inaugural Wrestlezolympics, and Antonio Inoki should be the default captain. But, given this year's circumstances, I say we commemorate Misawa's tragic death with captaincy. Also, I'd argue that he's the second most important Japanese wrestler ever, behind Inoki, so it's not as if the pick would be contrived.
     
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  4. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Agreed on that one TDigs. The only other people who would be deserving of Captain status on this team would be Inoki or Rikidōzan (who better be involved in this). Misawa is a true legend, and represents his era of wrestling just as much as Inoki did his.

    I hope to see some Kenta love as well.
     
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  5. thewrestlinghero

    thewrestlinghero Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I agree also Misawa should be captin he is just of a legend as Inoki some can argue that he is bigger then inoki . But I wont argue that.

    But yeah I agree with X I hope we see love from the likes of Kenta Giant baba koboshi Muta Kwada etc.
     
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  6. Harthan

    Harthan Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

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    You put HUSTLE ahead of NOAH. That's shameful. And forgot Dragon Gate. I mean, really.

    I can dig Misawa as captain. He's just as important as anyone else. Inoki and Rikidozan are like the Lou Thesz or Gorgeous George of Japanese wrestling - Misawa is like the Hulk Hogan or the Stone Cold.

    Is it possible to claim non-natives as Japanese? Vader, Gordy, Williams, and Hansen all spring to mind as people bounds better in Japan than they were in America.

    Membership should include Inoki and Rikidozan, of course, with (in no particular order) copious amounts of Kenta Kobashi, Tiger Mask, Toshiaki Kawada, Genichiro Tenryu, Jun Akiyama, Keiji Mutoh, Kensuke Sasaki, Hiroshi Hase, Tatsumi Fujinami, and a whole host of others. I don't even know what the team limit is, but I can keep naming names if you want. Just make sure Kawada is in there, damn it.
     
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  7. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    I definitely agree with Misawa as captain.

    However, I will be one pissed off dude if Hayabusa does not make this team. He was screwed out of being let in the WZ Tournament last year, and the same mistake should not be made once again. It would be an absolute travesty, and here's why:

    Every time Hayabusa performed, he gave it his all. His fucking all, as much as anyone has ever given in the business. Hayabusa has had some of the most dangerous, unbelievably shocking bumps anyone has ever had in professiona wrestling. But the thing about him was, unlike most "Hardcore" guys and wrestlers who were known in FWA, the guy could actually go out and have a GREAT match without the "hardcore" aspect involved in the contest. The man really could work in his ass off in any type of match. He was also a great promo cutter, as well (obviously I can't speak Japanese and of course there were no subtitles, but you could just tell from his emotions alone on the microphone that he was damn good at interviews), and had a ton of charisma. He was one of the most over wrestlers Japan has ever had.

    The fact is that Hayabusa is one of the greatest, most recognizable, and most acclaimed wrestlers to ever come out of Japan and he deserves to be Team Japan. He was an innovator, and carried a company on his back for nearly ten years. The company died when he got injured; that's how much he meant to it.

    [youtube]4lJP5TxjI0w[/youtube]

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    All of you guys are going for the native Japanese wrestlers, which is terrific. There's obviously LOADS to choose from, and unlike some of the other countries, it's harder to separate a top 5. Misawa, Inoki, and Rikidozan are practically locks.

    I'd like to see more support for Yokozuna. He was technically Samoan, but this is a kayfabe tournament, so he's in the running for Japan. Rodney Anoa'i was Samoan, but Yokozuna was Japanese. The man was one of the great SuperHeavyweights of all time, is a two-time former WWF Champion, ended Hulkamania for a decade in the WWF, defeated Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and Undertaker in one year at PPV's, and withstood the onslaught of Lex Luger's biggest push. If only one American federation Japanese wrestler makes the list, it'd have to be Yokozuna.
     
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  9. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    On one hand, you want to be a true smark and say fuck that idea; there are way too many Japanese legends to give a spot to a Samoan who worked in WWE his entire career, but on the other... how many of those Japanese legends will garner the support and votes that Yokozuna would most definitely get? I can't think of many, if any, to be honest, so Yoko should definitely be a serious consideration to make this team, especially if we want Japan to make it as far as it should go, which is of course the Finals.

    So yeah, IC... great suggestion. I'm pretty sure no one else would have recommended that.

    What does everyone else think?
     
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  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    It sucks that there's only five spots. Misawa, Kobashi, and Inoki should be locks. I could see Rikidozan and Giant Baba on this team, but, I don't think either of them compare to the three wrestlers I've already mentioned. I could also see Jumbo Tsuruta on the team, but, while a few inches shorter, Kenta Kobashi is just as powerful, intimidating, and charismatic (plus, he's more muscular).

    I'll take these three. Plus, if I were to choose this team by myself, I'd add Tiger Mask and Razor Ramon HG.
     
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  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    It actually made me a little sick to my stomach that no one mentioned Yokozuna from the start. But, then I realized that many of the readers didn't think about the kayfabe aspect of the tournament.

    Yokozuna was the WWE's posterchild for Japan. He exuded every element of the Japanese culture in and out of the ring and really took charge with his character. Plus, he was an absolute behemoth, a former WWE champion, former Intercontinental champion, and one of the most agile big men to ever enter a wrestling ring. From a kayfabe perspective, he's probably the frontrunner for the muscle of the team.
     
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  12. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Given the events IrishCanadian25 has already announced, Yokozuna would epically fail at every single one, save for the Battle Royal. And, who's to say that the 35 competitors that aren't his teammates won't gang up on him and get him out first?

    Yokozuna can't last 60 minutes in a match. Scratch the Iron Man.

    Yokozuna was never a submission specialist. Scratch the submission match.

    Yokozuna's not mobile enough to do well in a Fall Count Anywhere match. Scratch that one off of the list.

    Besides the Survivor Series match-up, that leaves is with the ladder match. Do I even need to elaborate on that one?
     
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  13. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    Why has there been no love for Jushin Liger? This is the man we voted over HBK in the tourney, and was one of the great innovators of the sport. He's a natural athlete, and could go toe-to-toe with almost anyone.

    As far as Yokozuna...No. He's good and all, but he's not an athlete, and he's not really Japanese. I wouldn't be against him making it, but there's certainly more deserving natives than him.
     
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  14. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Yeah, sorry, but Yokozuna being a former WWF champion means absolutely nothing to the rest of this team. Maybe it's just me, but for someone to be included on Team Japan, shouldn't they have actually wrestled in Japan? Yokozuna didn't. No way in hell does he deserve to be on this team. No way in hell. Especially since we only have, what, five spots for the team? If so, these are the five I think should make it:

    Rikidozan
    Antonio Inoki
    Mitsuharu Misawa
    Kenta Kobashi
    Toshiaki Kawada

    Man I hope we can have more than just five, because there are so many other legends missing from that list.

    But yeah, Yokozuna...no. Just no. Wouldn't even crack the top twenty.
     
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  15. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    He's my favorite cruiseweight ever, but, when it comes to the Olympics, you go with who would excel at the given events. Liger has unfortunately always been in a kind of limbo. He's big and strong, but he's a cruiserweight, so, kayfabe, he must lose to Japanese heavyweights (in Japan, you'll barely ever see a heavyweight losing to a junior heavyweight; the loss would bring way too much shame to the heavyweight). On the other hand, he's fast, but not as fast (or, as much as it pains me to say this, as gifted) as Tiger Mask. For a ladder match, I'd take Tiger Mask over Liger any day. But, for any other type of match, I'd take Liger over Tiger Mask any day.
     
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  16. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Man, Hayabusa is twice the worker Tiger Mask and Jushin Liger could ever dream of being. Tiger Mask is only known because of his work with the Dynamite Kid. Without his series of matches against him, Tiger Mask doesn't get nearly the same amount of recognition that he does. And Liger? Man, I love Liger, but he very well could be the most overrated Japanese wrestler in history. Just because he was able to wrestle a few matches in WCW doesn't make him special. Besides, whenever Liger and Hayabusa worked together, it was more than clear that Hayabusa was the superior wrestler.

    And I'm sorry X, but fuck Kawada. I don't want him on this team. Great wrestler, but a horrible representative for this country. The guy's an unprofessional ********.

    My personal 5:

    Antonio Inoki
    Mitsuharu Misawa
    Kenta Kobashi
    Hayabusa
    Rikidozan or Yokozuna

    Someone convince me on that last option. X already has me leaning towards Rikidozan with his last post.
     
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  17. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    That's very, very arguable. Atleast if we're talking about Misawa's time under the mask. Better than Liger though, I agree. Liger, as much as I love the guy, doesn't deserve to be on this team. There are simply better options.

    Well shit, when your matches are as good as those two's were, you don't really need to be known for anything else.

    Agreed completely.

    Maybe so, but the man is one of the greatest Japanese wrestlers of all time. Only Kobashi or Misawa rivals him in my book for sheer amount of great matches that he was involved in. Besides, if we're taking personality into this Olympics, Team USA is F-U-C-K-E-D with Hogan.

    Absolutely Rikidozan, not even close man. People just don't understand (not saying you don't) how important Rikidozan was, he was the Hulk Hogan of Japan, only bigger. The man transcended wrestling in a way that only one other person ever did (Santo). He's like Lou Thesz and Hulk Hogan combined in Japan, the man's more of a historical figure and national hero than he is just a professional wrestler. Absolutely should be on this team, much more deserving than fucking Yokozuna, who never even wrestled in Japan.

    Yokozuna doesn't deserve to be anywhere near this team, at all.
     
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  18. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Very debatable, actually.

    Those matches get mentioned over and over again because of how great they are. It's not as if Satoru Sayama's a one trick pony. As much as I love Hayabusa, he never put on a match that even rivals the ones you mentioned.

    Uh, what are you smoking? They had one memorable match, and that's only because it happened to be one of the first round matches of the greatest wrestling tournament ever. Furthermore, I hope no one estimated Hayabusa's worth as a wrestler based off of that match, because it was one of his poorest. He essentially wrestled like Sasuke has throughout his post-1994 career.

    And, Liger is far from the most overrated Japanese wrestler ever. Before his leg break and brain tumor, he was on Tiger Mask's level (although not as fast). And, even after illness beset him, he was able to come back, remain relevant, and put on some of the best damn junior heavyweight matches ever as a mat technician. if you add to all of this the importance he's played in making other people's careers and the popularity he maintained and brought to junior heavyweight wrestling as a booker in NJPW, then, in my opinion, you have the greatest professional wrestler ever under 225 lbs., PERIOD.

    Oh, and as far as WCW, that only really helped out one wrestler from New Japan: Yuji Nagata. Liger, Muta, Fujinami, and Chono didn't need WCW; WCW needed them.

    I'll agree with you here, not because of how unprofessional Kawada is, but because Inoki and Kobashi already fill any role that he could play on Team Japan.
     
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  19. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    They are great matches, but when you look at Sayama's full body of work, it doesn't come anywhere near matching the level of Hayabusa's. Hayabusa historically probably hasn't had as good as Tiger Mask had against the Dynamite Kid, at least to a lot of people that is, but to me personally, I'll watch Hayabusa's best work over Sayama's any day of the week.

    Also, Tdigs... Hogan vs. The Ultimate Warrior is considered one of the greatest matches of all time as well, does that mean Hayabusa isn't as good as the Warrior just because he doesn't have a match under his belt that people consider that legendary?

    I agree it wasn't anywhere near Hayabusa's best work, but whose fault was that, Tdigs? Liger's move set in that match was fucking terrible, and Hayabusa outshined him in every way conceivable in what little offense he was able to get in. And Liger even fucked up selling Hayabusa's huracanrana, and failed to move out the way when Hayabusa went for the Shooting Star Press. Hayabusa clearly showed he was the better, more exciting wrestler in that match, in which I agree, was the kick start to the greatest tournament in professional wrestling history.

    Eh, now that's debatable. In fact, to me... Liger is nowhere near as good as Rey Mysterio Jr. was in his prime. Nowhere near.

    With the exception of Muta, those guys didn't draw a dime for WCW. However, working in WCW gave them an audience in the states. I sure as shit didn't know any of those guys until I saw them on WCW.
     
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  20. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    Seriously, nobody wants Muta? That's not even funny, Keiji Mutoh is a fantastic wrestler who's had success both in Japan and some minor success in the USA, at least he's a recognisable name. I'll take him over both Liger and Tiger Mask, he's capable in all the matches IC has listed so far and is quite dominant. As for the rest of who I would pick, I'd go:

    Mitsuharu Misawa (Captain)
    Antonio Inoki
    Kenta Kobashi
    Rikidozan
    The Great Muta
     
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  21. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    What matches has Hayabusa had that match Sayama's? Even excluding Tiger Mask's two epic matches with Dynamite Kid, find me any match of Hayabusa's that would equal in quality the work Sayama did with Les Thornton or Kuniaki Kobayashi. I will gladly give you dates for all of Sayama's great matches if need be, as well as the opponents he faced. It's not as if I got a hard-on for his work based off of Meltzer's reviews for his matches with Dynamite Kid and assumed that the rest of his career would be just as awesome. Rather, I know for a fact that his career is filled with matches that are almost on the same caliber as the ones he had with Dynamite Kid.

    This might have worked if Tiger Mask's matches with Dynamite Kid didn't completely shit all over the Wrestlemania VI main event.

    And, no, this doesn't mean that Hayabusa isn't as good as the Ultimate Warrior. Let's say we assign numerical values to the matches of Hayabusa and the Ultimate Warrior. Even if we gave Warrior's match with Hogan a value of 600, I'm pretty sure that Hayabusa at least has two matches that can be valued at three-quarters of the value of the Warrior/Hogan match. So, that would put him at 900 to Warrior's 600. But, Tiger Mask's matches with Dynamite Kid are each worth at least twice as much the Warrior/Hogan match, so that gives Tiger Mask a value of 2400, just with those two matches.

    I'll go back and watch the match again, but, if memory serves me correct, Hayabusa had nowhere near the amount of finesse and grace you claim he had throughout his career. Unlike his later work in FMW, which, I will admit, was damn good, this match saw him jumping all over the place without any sense of pacing.

    Rey Mysterio, Jr.'s prime is known for one thing: his extremely crisp hurricanra. Furthermore, you're restricting your analysis to only a portion of Liger's abilities as a wrestler here; Mysterio, Jr. was indeed faster, but he was nowhere near as powerful or versatile as Liger.

    Huh? So, you're telling me that WCW being added on to NJPW's January Dome shows from 1991 to 1993 did absolutely nothing for the careers of WCW's wrestlers? Sometimes, helping out someone has nothing to do with the money, although NJPW's Dome shows throughout the 90s drew 60,000+ crowds every year. Without NJPW, some WCW wrestlers would have nowhere near the amount of credibility as they do with a Dome show or two under their belts.
     
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  22. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    I'll admit that's it just personal preference, but I'll sit down and watch Hayabusa vs. Gladitor, Masato Tanaka, Mr. Gannosuke, Sabu, Onita etc. over anything Sayama has ever done. Also, Hayabusa's tag work with Shinzaki is phenomenal as well. Nothing I've seen from Sayama/the original Tiger Mask ever blew me away, with of course the exception of his work against Dynamite Kid.

    Fair points all around, but like I said, I still prefer Hayabusa's body of work over him. Hayabusa was just so versatile, and his, unfortunately short, history in professional wrestling proves it that he was one of the most versatile wrestlers to ever exist. The man could do literally anything.

    Well, the bolded part is just false, Tdigs, my man. I believe his match against Liger was Hayabusa's first in Japan since coming up with the gimmick. So of course he was a bit spotty out there, trying to get a bunch of stuff in with what little offense he was granted, but he was still able to fly in the air like no one had ever seen before, and it was because of the beauty and grace in his moves.

    Moreover, I'll take it a step further and say Hayabusa was the greatest seller in the history of Japanese professional wrestling as well. Watch his work against Mr. Gannosuke, for example. The fans had so much sympathy for Hayabusa during that feud, and it was all because of his selling. And this might not sound like it has anything to do with the point here, but selling correctly involves grace as well when you think about it, and like I said... no one did it better than Hayabusa.

    Well, you have a point about Liger having the power offense to go along with the high flying , but still... if we're looking at matches here like we did with Tiger Mask, then I can say there's nothing from Liger's resume that comes close to Rey's best matches.

    Once again you have fair points, but at the same time... we're both backtracking from my original point, which was that if Liger never wrestled in WCW, I don't think he'd be anywhere near as popular as he is. Sure, it's fortunate for WCW and us fans that Liger did wrestle there, but had Hayabusa been giving that same shot... I think he would have been able to do more with it. Shit, just look at the one match he had in the states. It's considered one of the greatest tag matches of all time, and rightfully so.
     
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  23. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    All right.

    Now, I have to go back and watch the match. I may or may not be wrong.

    Mysterio, Jr. would be lucky if anyone of his matches was able to match Liger's bouts with Pillman. Wait, he had a match with Juventud Guerrera that was really good, but it was nowhere near as great as Liger's bouts with Naoki Sano, The Great Sasuke, and Shinjiro Ohtani. So, what matches are you talking about? Are you talking about Mysterio, Jr.'s match with Eddie Guerrero at Halloween Havoc '97? That match was good, not great.

    If Liger didn't go to WCW, he'd still be just as popular as he is today. But, I would just like to point out that he doesn't have that many fans in the English-speaking world; not that many people watched WCW in the early 90s, and they sure as shit weren't watching it when Liger came back towards the close of the millennium (there might have been a few matches in between, but my point still stands). Nonetheless, without WCW, there would still be Meltzer and tape trading. How would someone of Liger's caliber not get recognized in the English-speaking world? Without WCW, the only difference is that Liger's fans wouldn't have his matches with Pillman. So, I will restate here what I said earlier: WCW needed Liger, not the other way around.
     
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  24. Ty Burna

    Ty Burna Getting Noticed By Management

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    Misawa is most definitely the captain of the Japan team. There is no question about that. Now what becomes difficult is choosing the other four competitors for Team Japan. Let's throw a few names out shall we?

    The Great Muta (Keiji Mutoh) - With the success Muta had in the WZ Tournament earlier this year, you could make an argument that he would be a great popularity boost for Team Japan. However, with that popularity boost would come hatred because of him going over some wrestlers that people more easily identified with. Regardless of that, Muta is damn fine in the ring and brings a lot attributes that would work well in any match.

    Jushin Liger - Similar to The Great Muta, Liger made a deep run in the WZ Tournament, and probably gained a considerable amount of popularity from that run. Looking at the skill set of Liger, if you took him in his absolute prime, he had high flying abilities, as well as some more ground and power type attacks as well. A very solid all around performer, he could compete in just about any match thrown at him.

    Ultimo Dragon - I didn't see anyone put Ultimo Dragon out there which makes me disappointed. Ultimo Dragon was a very good technical wrestler as well as well educated in the lucha libre style. He could keep up with Dean Malenko in terms of chain wrestling, and could also compete with the Rey Mysterio's in high flying action. A great skill set across the board, the man also has name recognition for some wrestling fan's that were watching during the Monday Night Wars. Not only that, but he's a J-Crown champion as well.

    Kenta Kobashi - I think the case for Kenta is being debated right now. But I think he's more than qualified for a spot on Team Japan. 5 Star matches left and right, championships, I mean the man's resume speaks for itself.

    Rikidozan - He brought Japanese wrestling to the mainstream. He's a legend in Japan, and it's a shame he had to die the way he did. I'm not sure what else I have to say for Rikidozan. The only negative I could say is he may not be suited for today's style of matches. I may get shot for saying that by tdigle however.

    Yokozuna - Yokozuna is a WWE legend, but I just have a hard time placing him in here. He wasn't very versatile in the ring, and it was more or less his sheer girth that brought him the success that he had. Like it was said earlier, he would be a good choice for a Survivor Series match, but I don't know what else he would be good for.

    I know I'm missing some people, and bear with me I'll get to more when they come to me. And some of the names that have already been mentioned, I may not be entirely familiar with. I won't give my opinion on who should be in Team Japan quite yet. I want to read arguments from others that are probably a little more fluent in Puroresu then I.
     
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  25. nickg_90

    nickg_90 Dark Match Jobber

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    surprisingly, no mention of taka michinoku. just like canada, mexico, and the u.s., quite a few names to choose from.

    my choices are:

    1. mitsuharu misawa
    2. antonio inoki
    3. tiger mask
    4. jushin liger
    5. either ultimo dragon or the great muta
     
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