No happy endings in wrestling?

[Schoolboy-Chris]

With the ending of ECW the other night I began to wonder, are they ever any happy, conclusive endings in wrestling? Many of us assumed that Christian would end ECW as the last ever champion, something I felt he deserved for helping to carry the company for so long. Instead we were denied this feel good moment, and Jackson, who has done nothing substantial in ECW, was given the title and goes on record as the last ECW champion. Many of us were disappointed at this result, and it made me think about how wrestling related affairs never seem to end on good terms. When you think about it for individual wrestlers there are a huge number of examples that pop up.

• Bret Hart is one of the most well regarded wrestlers in history, having been at the forefront of WWE and featured prominently on our screens for years. Yet before Bret Hart’s recent return he had not been in a WWE ring in about 12 years, as the Montreal Screwjob saw him leave the WWE in some of the worst circumstances that could be imagined.

• Shawn Michaels is regarded as one of the best wrestlers and performers of all time, but there have been several moments when we thought that he would never wrestle again. When HBK left in 1998 due to injury he was humiliated by Vince and Stone Cold, seeing Stone cold dominate him and drape him with a Steve Austin t-shirt.

• The Rock had been a staple of the Attitude Era and one of the wrestlers who attracted many of today’s fans, yet his last match saw him and Mick Foley lose to Evolution in a very disappointing situation where many people had expected a feel good comeback.

• Jeff Hardy was forced to leave by CM Punk last year after losing a cage match on Smackdown, something that disappointed many fans who wished that Jeff could have received more of a send off, as well as more support for his decision to leave.

• The high death rate in wrestling has seen many of our favourite wrestlers, and those who we grew up watching, dead before their time. There is a very long list, including Chris Benoit, Owen Hart, Test, Big Boss man, Crash Holly, Eddie Guerrero, Davey Boy Smith, Yokozuna and most recently Umaga.

• Many of us here were fans of WCW and ECW when they were at their peaks, but we ended up seeing these companies made a mockery of, and used to prove the dominance of the WWE over all its competitors.

It just seems that whenever someone leaves wrestling, or the industry itself goes through a big change, it has to be under tragic or disappointing circumstances. How many wrestlers have given their bodies for our entertainment and then received an appropriate send off once they were ready to retire? I thought Ric Flair would be the exception to this. While Flair’s last match was sad it was also very fitting, and I applauded the fact that the career of a legend was being laid to rest in such a fitting and respectful way. His subsequent comeback to “fight” with several wrestlers, and then his move to TNA, served in my opinion to tarnish this moment and make it seem meaningless.

In my opinion the never ending cycle of new generations in wrestling is something that prevents many wrestlers from receiving an appropriate send off. If a wrestler wishes to retire, then he almost always has to suffer a loss or series of losses, in order to give exposure to the younger wrestlers expected to replace him. Those who are too old or injured to wrestle effectively are often not qualified for anything else, and are forced to play comedy roles or endure humiliation in an attempt to wring the last drop of entertainment from them. Stone Cold, Ron Simmons, Roddy Piper, Jimmy Snuka, Jim Duggan and Sgt. Slaughter are all examples of past-it wrestlers being dragged back in a role that only serves to dilute their legacy. Even when Vickie Guerrero was leaving she had to endure humiliation, being forced to endure endless degrading segments, to serve as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving.

It seems as though wrestling is such a vocation, a life choice, that it is impossible to leave under amicable circumstances and just build a life in some other way. If you can think of any situation where a wrestler leaves with dignity, outside of dying, then I would like to hear it. Not because I am looking to be proved right in this theory, but because I would honestly like to believe that it is possible for the athletes that I respect so much to have some chance at leaving wrestling with their dignity, and their health, intact.

 

[Davi323]

Stone Cold, Ron Simmons, Roddy Piper, Jimmy Snuka, Jim Duggan and Sgt. Slaughter are all examples of past-it wrestlers being dragged back in a role that only serves to dilute their legacy. Even when Vickie Guerrero was leaving she had to endure humiliation, being forced to endure endless degrading segments, to serve as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving.

I was going with what you were saying, until you came to this part. Every single one of those past-it wrestlers made a conscious decision to return to the world of professional wrestling (although, I do wonder why Stone Cold is listed there?). You cannot complain about them being "forced" to do anything. Each and every one of them made a choice, and sometimes, when you are a pro wrestler, that means getting humiliated on camera. It happens to all of them. It is just a storyline, man. If you choose to return to pro wrestling, after a long and storied career, you choose to get cracked on the skull by a coconut like Snuka, you choose to become a jobber like Hacksaw. Nobody forced them to do anything. But, look at Ricky Steamboat. He returned, and was so damned good in the ring still, he got a good little feud going with Y2J, where Y2J's winning was NOT automatically assumed.

As for Vicki Guerrero, that was to bury her GM character, not Vicki Guerrero the character. In case you missed it, Vicki was a heel. She was intentionally mean, she wanted to be hated. When Vicki Guerrero the mother of Eddie's children was leaving, they had to resolve the issues of what to do with Vicki Guerrero, the television GM character. Given the respect the WWE has shown to Eddie, don't you think that if Vicki had refused to go along with those gags, that they would have backed down? Hell, Mickie James just went through the whole "piggy James" thing, and she is the best WWE diva on the roster! Its just for entertainment.

 

[Crippler CrossFace]

I see what your saying and I pretty much agree. HOWEVER almost all of those guys have done something to cause those reactions. Mickie James leaving for country music, Jeff Hardy with the whole drug thing, Bret Hart is well documented.

Do I agree with that.. no, not at all. I'm just giving you Vince's point of view.

I do have to disagree a bit. I think that the WWE treats it's people pretty damn well. Taker has a freakin undefeated streak at Wrestlemania. Also I know this is "sports entertainment" but in real sports it is very rare for a player to get a "proper" sendoff. Not everyone gets the gamewinning td in the superbowl, homer in the world series, Stanley Cup clinching goal.... blah blah. I think that if you are loyal to the brand they will give back to you big time.

I'm watching Road Warrior Animal win the tag championship with Heidenrich. Hogan and Michaels team up and beat Hassan and Dajiri (I forget this guy), then Hogan go out over HBK. My point is that loyalty pays off in Vince's eyes. He has a sense of what is right and more often than not will let them get that payoff. It won't always be their last match because that is kinda unrealistic. But they will get that match that they can say their goodbye on.

As for the losing streak, I think that is a right of passage. I mean sure they get new guys over but when they were new I'm sure they got over on some older guys. My point is that it gives the younger wrestlers credibility and is a logical progression for an athlete.

 

[Schoolboy-Chris]

I was going with what you were saying, until you came to this part. Every single one of those past-it wrestlers made a conscious decision to return to the world of professional wrestling (although, I do wonder why Stone Cold is listed there?). You cannot complain about them being "forced" to do anything. Each and every one of them made a choice, and sometimes, when you are a pro wrestler, that means getting humiliated on camera. It happens to all of them. It is just a storyline, man. If you choose to return to pro wrestling, after a long and storied career, you choose to get cracked on the skull by a coconut like Snuka, you choose to become a jobber like Hacksaw. Nobody forced them to do anything. But, look at Ricky Steamboat. He returned, and was so damned good in the ring still, he got a good little feud going with Y2J, where Y2J's winning was NOT automatically assumed.

Of course they are forced to do these angles, most of the talent currently under contract with WWE have very little say on what storylines they participate in. If you read the autobiography of any WWE wrestler they almost invariably have some story of being made to participate in an angle that they were uncomfortable with. The sad truth is that most of the wrestlers know that they will never do any better than WWE in terms of pay and exposure, and this gives the WWE the ability to put them in any situation that they wish. And yes the legends made a choice to return, but my point was that so many of them do this because they are broken down, broke, and not qualified to do anything but wrestle. The Rock's dad Rocky Johnson is a perfect example of this, after he couldn't wrestle anymore he became a depressed alcoholic, because wrestling was his whole life.

Steamboat coming back was a very rare scenario that took nearly everyone by surprise. Seeing him come back and still give so much made it all the more sad for him to leave again, since we all knew that he still had ability. And talking about choice, if the legends all had a choice then i'm sure many of them would go down the Hulk Hogan path and try to gather as much power and influence as they can. The influence that an old wrestler can have on the WWE and how they are portrayed will only measure with how much use they can be to a company. A Jimmy Snuka does not come back years past his prime in this era and say "I'm ready to wrestle, make me champion." He says "I am in need of money, if you think of how much I have given to the company and could find a storyline for me I would be very grateful." It is sad to think that this is the only option available to them, but wrestling is a business, and one that needs a constant influx of new talent to survive.

As for Vicki Guerrero, that was to bury her GM character, not Vicki Guerrero the character. In case you missed it, Vicki was a heel. She was intentionally mean, she wanted to be hated. When Vicki Guerrero the mother of Eddie's children was leaving, they had to resolve the issues of what to do with Vicki Guerrero, the television GM character. Given the respect the WWE has shown to Eddie, don't you think that if Vicki had refused to go along with those gags, that they would have backed down? Hell, Mickie James just went through the whole "piggy James" thing, and she is the best WWE diva on the roster! Its just for entertainment.

Yes Vickie was a heel, but the humiliation that she went through seemed to come about as a direct result of her telling the WWE that she wished to leave. The WWE then made sure to fill her remaining time under contract with segments to embarass her and ruin her credibility for if she ever went to TNA. Mickie James was punished for supposedly gaining weight, the reason that she was moved to Smackdown in the first place.

The whole reason that the Montreal Screwjob even occurred was because Bret Hart wouldn't drop the title, and this was because he had creative control over his character for the last period that he was under contract. The WWE has learned from this and gives very few superstars any creative control, which means that they are bound by contract to do what they are told, and therefore forced if they wish to keep their jobs. The point of those diva segments was not entertainment, but the degradation of the diva's they focused on, as an example to them and others. If Vickies career had ended with those segments then it would have been yet another low note, which is exactly the point I was making originally.

 

[Davi323]

You missed the entire point, schoolboy. By signing those contracts, they volunteer to do those things. Nobody held a gun up to their heads. By volunteering to be a WWE Employee, you volunteer to do all kinds of things. If you don't want to do things that might be lame, or that you might object to, don't sign that WWE contract. If you accept a job at a bar that allows smoking, and you knew it allowed smoking before you applied, do you have the right to whine about the fact that its smoke filled? Of course not. You knew what you were getting into before you got into it. Fact is, anything supposedly humiliating that those legends went through, happened because they chose to sign their names on the dotted line. Everything is just excuse making.

I am also going to call total bullshit on Vicki's treatment. The WWE doesn't humiliate other on-air talent that are leaving like that, why should Vicki be different? Why would they treat Vicki Guerrero so badly, why would they treat the wife of Eddie Guerrero like shit, when she wanted to be home with their kids, and not treat wrestlers who are leaving for other reasons the same way? Vicki got humiliated because she was a HEEL. Her character was designed to be despised. Further, if she was that humiliated, why did she come back? Wouldn't that speak of a woman with terribly low strength of character? That she would volunteer to return to a company that outright verbally abused her? Bullshit.

 

[Schoolboy-Chris]

You missed the entire point, schoolboy. By signing those contracts, they volunteer to do those things. Nobody held a gun up to their heads. By volunteering to be a WWE Employee, you volunteer to do all kinds of things. If you don't want to do things that might be lame, or that you might object to, don't sign that WWE contract. If you accept a job at a bar that allows smoking, and you knew it allowed smoking before you applied, do you have the right to whine about the fact that its smoke filled? Of course not. You knew what you were getting into before you got into it. Fact is, anything supposedly humiliating that those legends went through, happened because they chose to sign their names on the dotted line. Everything is just excuse making.

Actually I think it is you who missed the point to be honest, the one I was making at least. While Vince himself may not ring up these retired wrestlers and ask them to come out of retirement for an unsatisfying storyline, many of them are forced to come back to wrestling. Rather than the WWE pulling them back, it is the events in their life that push them back towards the WWE, they are forced back by circumstance. They get into wrestling when they are young for any number of reasons, and it often chews them up and spits them out once it is finished with them. Noone wants to admit to themselves that they will be old and broken down one day, and wrestlers are no different. Even looking at Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair now one has to wonder whether they give over much thought to the fact that they are alot older than they were in their prime.

Of course people can whine about their jobs, I don't know a single person with a job who isn't happy with at least one aspect of it. Working in a bar is not the same as wrestling however, as I was trying to make the point of wrestling being a vocation rather than just a job to pay the bills. A barman can finish his shift, go home and spend time with his family. In a wrestlers case he travels around doing his job for most of the year, counting his blessings when he gets a couple of days to spend with his family. Going through such a huge change with retirement seems to be too much for many wrestlers, which is why we so rarely see a retirement stick, just look at Terry Funk. The WWE knows that most wrestlers have no other options than asking for a return when they need money, and the fact that these returns can end in humiliation is an added affront to the wrestlers already damaged pride at having to come back. This goes to show the low price of dignity in the wrestling business, which was a large part of the original point that I was making.

I am also going to call total bullshit on Vicki's treatment. The WWE doesn't humiliate other on-air talent that are leaving like that, why should Vicki be different? Why would they treat Vicki Guerrero so badly, why would they treat the wife of Eddie Guerrero like shit, when she wanted to be home with their kids, and not treat wrestlers who are leaving for other reasons the same way? Vicki got humiliated because she was a HEEL. Her character was designed to be despised. Further, if she was that humiliated, why did she come back? Wouldn't that speak of a woman with terribly low strength of character? That she would volunteer to return to a company that outright verbally abused her? Bullshit.

Call bullshit all you want. Vickie Guerrero was not treated all that differently to other superstars have occasionally been, you pointed that out yourself with the recent Mickie James storyline. Vickie was punished for deciding to leave while involved in a storyline, she was obviously on a shorter term or pay per appearance contract and the WWE wished to display its displeasure at her opting out of this. You ask why they would want to treat her like shit, well your opinion is as good as mine but the fact is that they did. The way that Vickie was humiliated and came back proves my point exactly about wrestlers having so few options, the same is apparently true for Eddie's widow. She knew that she would have a place because of the respect that people have for Eddie, and she no doubt has friends in the company who pushed for her to be allocated a role.

I don't know Vickie so I am in no position to judge her depth of character, but for her to return to a company who shows its willingness to mistreat her in the past could be down to a lack of alternatives. Vickie is part of a wrestling family, and showed herself not to be immune to the push of circumstances back to the WWE. Vickie probably returned for the same reason that so many wrestlers do, and that is a lack of options. This is a sad fact of life for many wrestlers, and the point I was making originally.

 

[Davi323]

Lets look at those wrestlers a sec, shall we? You believe that Vince brings them back, just so that he can humiliate them...Okay, Jericho hits Snuka in the head...oh, but didn't Piper do that like, 25 years ago? When both were active wrestlers? Snuka gets his ass kicked by Jericho? So what? The Undertaker kicked Snuka's ass too, to begin the streak. That was 18 years ago.

Sgt. Slaughter was just brought back to be embarrassed on TV? Is that why he worked backstage as an agent for close to a decade? Roddy Piper was forced to return to the WWE? Really? Because didn't make enough money in the 30 plus years he wrestled, and the 100+ movies he has made? Piper was broke? If they really felt the need to keep wrestling, they could always go to any number of independent organizations, and avoid the evil wrath of Vince McMahon.

How was Stone Cold embarrassed by Vince? Seriously? I mentioned in my first post that I wasn't sure why he was included, and you never said.

Hacksaw Jim Duggan? Did it occur to you that Vince kept Hacksaw around for the same reason he is keeping Golddust around? He is/was an established veteran who has a wealth of knowledge he can give to the younger generation? As a mentor? Did it occur to you that while Hacksaw is losing on TV, that its not to embarrass him, but rather to slightly elevate the young wrestler he is facing? And that backstage after the match, Hacksaw congratulates the kid, and teaches him what he did well, and what he can improve on? These young wrestlers are going to listen to someone who has been in the business 30 years.

What about the vast majority of wrestlers that give it up, and you never hear from them again? The number of wrestlers that actually do get back in the spotlight are few and far between. Ric Flair was past his prime 10 years ago...but Vince McMahon hates old wrestlers so much, he revels in humiliating them so much, that he gave Flair a HUGE Wrestlemania sendoff, right? Because ending your career (supposedly) on the biggest stage of them all, with 80,000 in attendance and millions watching at home is such an embarrassment. That is Vince's tough way of showing Flair who is boss, and what he thought of him leaving, isn't it? If HBK is scheduled to lose to the Undertaker at WM26, ending his career, (ooh, once again, at Wrestlemania) losing to the Undertaker is Vince's way of telling Shawn to shove it up his ass too, right? If HBK turned in his one month notice, and plans to call it a career, Vince is going to bury him too, just like he buries everyone else who leaves his company. Somehow, I doubt that is going to happen though. If this is it for Shawn, somehow I get the feeling he is going to get a huge sendoff, and we will see a video package honoring him for the month following, just like we did with Flair.

Furthermore, what is exactly humiliating about Vince telling all of those wrestlers they are being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame? With the exception of Ron Simmons, every one of them has been inducted. What is so embarrassing about being told that your career is being recognized, and will be celebrated in ceremony? How does that phone call go? "Hey, this is Vince. Yeah, Vince McMahon. Hey, I want to run an idea past you...As you know, I hate old wrestlers, so I want to humiliate you on national cable by inducting you into the Hall of Fame and have everyone tell you how great you were, show a video package celebrating your career, and have the fans cheer for you. What? Yeah, of course you get to give a speech thanking the fans for all their support, yeah, I am sure they are all going to applaud you, too. What? You'll do it? Great. I look forward to embarrassing you in a few weeks." Oooops, that kind of puts a kink in your argument, doesn't it?

Piggy James? You forgot one teeeeeeny tiiiiiiiiny little part of that...Mickie won. You don't humiliate someone because they gained a few pounds at the same book them to end up the winner. If you are going to humiliate someone, you have them lose to end the feud, not win it. Oooops, that kind of puts a kink in your argument, doesn't it?

Nor did you answer why in hell Vicki Guerrero would willingly come back to the WWE after her "humiliating" exit? If she needed the money, because she is so bad at money management, having already gone through everything Eddie made, and then what she herself made that she had to get a job, she could have gone to TNA and gone on TV and bitched about the WWE. TNA fans would have eaten it up. But no, she headed back to the WWE, the supposed source of her torment. Sorry, if my company did that to me, I would never go back to work for them, ever again, as a matter of principle. But what do you do when the illogic of your statement is pointed out? You backtrack with bullshit about how you don't know her, and can't judge her character. Yet, you have no problems claiming you know the situations of all those other wrestlers, and how they were forced to return, and you can judge Vince McMahon, because you claim that Vince is trying to bury them, etc...but Vicki? Nope. You can't judge her.

Getting humiliated on TV for a Pro wrestler is the job. It isn't to win matches, it isn't to only do storylines that make you look great. Pro wrestling is entertainment, and entertainment only. What you call humiliation, they would call acting. Its their job. Santino Marella's job isn't to win matches, his job is to make a fool out of himself, because that is what entertains the fans. Some actors make their money in serious roles. Some make it doing action movies, and some make their living humiliating themselves on camera. Why is wrestling any different? Barry Horowitz made a good living jobbing to everyone under the sun. So did Steve Lombardi, the Brooklyn Brawler. Those guys got their ass kicked just about every week, and were happy to do so. That was their job. These legends that Vince is supposedly humiliating have each done their fair share of ridiculous angles, had stupid storylines that made little sense, etc. They understand something you don't. The job isn't to look good on TV, the job is to entertain the fans. If that means getting beaned on the head with a coconut or chair, that's what it means. If that means coming out of retirement to give a wrestling clinic like Steamboat, that's what it means. If that means being the RAW guest host for a week, that's what it means. Pro wrestlers aren't wrestlers. They are physical actors, storytellers.

 

[Schoolboy-Chris]

Lets look at those wrestlers a sec, shall we? You believe that Vince brings them back, just so that he can humiliate them...Okay, Jericho hits Snuka in the head...oh, but didn't Piper do that like, 25 years ago? When both were active wrestlers? Snuka gets his ass kicked by Jericho? So what? The Undertaker kicked Snuka's ass too, to begin the streak. That was 18 years ago.

Sgt. Slaughter was just brought back to be embarrassed on TV? Is that why he worked backstage as an agent for close to a decade? Roddy Piper was forced to return to the WWE? Really? Because didn't make enough money in the 30 plus years he wrestled, and the 100+ movies he has made? Piper was broke? If they really felt the need to keep wrestling, they could always go to any number of independent organizations, and avoid the evil wrath of Vince McMahon.

How was Stone Cold embarrassed by Vince? Seriously? I mentioned in my first post that I wasn't sure why he was included, and you never said.

Once again I think you are trying to make your own point here without paying attention to the one that I was making. Instead of going on a tirade maybe you should have read through my original posts and paid attention to the points that I was making. The embarassment is not always in the storylines, it is that these wrestlers who come back do so in a way that is embarassing to their legacy. When Snuka and Piper both came in during the 2008 Royal Rumble I did not revel and think about how great this was, the crowning achievement of two formerly great wrestlers. I was embarassed for both of these men, as was everyone who I was watching the event with. To see these men come back from retirement in terrible shape, and see wrestlers in their prime sell their offense to such an extent, ruined the sense of realism that this fake sport is based off.

That is the point I am making, that old wrestlers do not know how to bow out gracefully. If Piper was so satisfied with the "100+" films he was making then he shouldn't have felt the need to come back and make a fool of himself in front of a new generation who will now only remember him as the broken down, out of shape wrestler who was half of the reason for all of the momentum being taken out of the Rumble halfway through. This is similar to the point I was originally making about Stone Cold, though obviously not in the same way since he is younger and more present in fans minds. He had a period of coming back every few months for a one off appearance, even though he had a budding film career and was not physically able to compete in the WWE anymore. This showed Stone Cold was not happy with his new life, and kept gravitating back to wrestling even though there is not really a place for him there anymore.

What about the vast majority of wrestlers that give it up, and you never hear from them again? The number of wrestlers that actually do get back in the spotlight are few and far between. Ric Flair was past his prime 10 years ago...but Vince McMahon hates old wrestlers so much, he revels in humiliating them so much, that he gave Flair a HUGE Wrestlemania sendoff, right? Because ending your career (supposedly) on the biggest stage of them all, with 80,000 in attendance and millions watching at home is such an embarrassment. That is Vince's tough way of showing Flair who is boss, and what he thought of him leaving, isn't it? .

Again, this is a perfect case of a wrestler humiliating himself without the help of Vince. You say yourself that Flair was past his prime ten years ago, so why did he keep coming back to wrestling and trying to hang with wrestlers in their prime? He was living off past glory, and by doing this was ensuring that newer fans remember him not as one of the best wrestlers in history, but as a leathery has-been who cannot take bumps correctly because of a plane crash and a career spent getting battered. Flair's Wrestlemania sendoff was great, and I thought that his was a sad occasion but one that would end happily for Flair since he could retire gracefully. Flair coming back later was him shitting all over his retirement and saying that it meant nothing to him. Coming back, saying he is not going to wrestle anymore but that he is going to "fight" then leaving WWE to go to TNA where he plans to wrestle anyway, this shows that is not desperate at all then does it? Flair is a prime example of a broken down wrestler who should not wrestle anymore, but cannot live his lfie any other way.

Furthermore, what is exactly humiliating about Vince telling all of those wrestlers they are being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame? With the exception of Ron Simmons, every one of them has been inducted. What is so embarrassing about being told that your career is being recognized, and will be celebrated in ceremony? How does that phone call go? "Hey, this is Vince. Yeah, Vince McMahon. Hey, I want to run an idea past you...As you know, I hate old wrestlers, so I want to humiliate you on national cable by inducting you into the Hall of Fame and have everyone tell you how great you were, show a video package celebrating your career, and have the fans cheer for you. What? Yeah, of course you get to give a speech thanking the fans for all their support, yeah, I am sure they are all going to applaud you, too. What? You'll do it? Great. I look forward to embarrassing you in a few weeks." Oooops, that kind of puts a kink in your argument, doesn't it?

Eh actually no, it doesn't put a kink in my argument. Do you seriously think that being put in the Hall of Fame is that big a deal, that it is this life changing experience for the entrants? The Hall of Fame ceremony is just another way for Vince to hype Wrestlemania, and reward those of his wrestlers who have done what he tells them for so long. The Ultimate Warrior recently refused an offer to go into the Hall of Fame, wow it must be prestigious, right? Hulk Hogan recently gave his HOF ring to Abyss, a wrestler in WWE's biggest rival company, the HOF clearly means the world to him then yes?

The Hall of Fame is another political weapon that Vince holds over the heads of anyone who thinks it is the least bit worthwhile. Stu Hart is going to be the big name for the HOF this year, which would have nothing to do with Bret coming back recently would it? The only reason the Rock would come back and make a HOF speech was if his father and grandfather were inducted, another instance of it being used as a political tool. The HOF fame rewards loyalty to Vince rather than achievements in wrestling, otherwise why would Koko B. Ware be in there but Randy Savage omitted. The promise of a HOF induction keeps a few wrestlers on a short leash for Vince, another tool for him to keep his empire secure with.

Piggy James? You forgot one teeeeeeny tiiiiiiiiny little part of that...Mickie won. You don't humiliate someone because they gained a few pounds at the same book them to end up the winner. If you are going to humiliate someone, you have them lose to end the feud, not win it. Oooops, that kind of puts a kink in your argument, doesn't it?

Again, no it doesn't trump my argument i'm afraid. Mickie was the face in this feud, and in order for probably the most popular woman wrestler in the WWE to continue with her career she had to win this feud in the end. The point was that the content was unnecessarily cruel towards Mickie, which was done to punish her for her supposed weight gain. The reports of her being unaware of the content of the segments against her support my argument because it shows the impact that the WWE wished it to have against Mickie.

Nor did you answer why in hell Vicki Guerrero would willingly come back to the WWE after her "humiliating" exit? If she needed the money, because she is so bad at money management, having already gone through everything Eddie made, and then what she herself made that she had to get a job, she could have gone to TNA and gone on TV and bitched about the WWE. TNA fans would have eaten it up. But no, she headed back to the WWE, the supposed source of her torment. Sorry, if my company did that to me, I would never go back to work for them, ever again, as a matter of principle. But what do you do when the illogic of your statement is pointed out? You backtrack with bullshit about how you don't know her, and can't judge her character. Yet, you have no problems claiming you know the situations of all those other wrestlers, and how they were forced to return, and you can judge Vince McMahon, because you claim that Vince is trying to bury them, etc...but Vicki? Nope. You can't judge her.

Well it isn't exactly unlikely that Vickie needed money, wrestlers aren't exactly known for their great management of finances, and Eddie was said to even worse than most. Vickie has a family to support without a husband and she clearly shelved her pride in continuing to work for a company that treated her with so little respect. You say she should have left and gone to TNA, what makes you even think that TNA would have taken her? She can go to WWE because her dead husband wrestled there, so she is basically assured some semblance of employment. Plus she no doubt has friends there, or at least more than she would in TNA. I answered this in the last post so maybe you should have read it a little bit more closely.

I said I didn't know her because you were asking for a comment on her depth of character, something that neither of us is in a position to accurately give. You say you would not go back to a company that treated you this way, and I could say the same, but asking for Vickies reasons is far too subjective to answer honestly. You say my answer was bullshit, but i don't know what you were expecting because you obviously hadn't put any thought into your question. Maybe you should be asking about practical rather than hypothetical issues, because these practical points are the ones that I have been trying to make this entire time. Ask a proper question if you are actually looking for a realistic answer.

Getting humiliated on TV for a Pro wrestler is the job. It isn't to win matches, it isn't to only do storylines that make you look great. Pro wrestling is entertainment, and entertainment only. What you call humiliation, they would call acting. Its their job. Santino Marella's job isn't to win matches, his job is to make a fool out of himself, because that is what entertains the fans. Some actors make their money in serious roles. Some make it doing action movies, and some make their living humiliating themselves on camera. Why is wrestling any different? Barry Horowitz made a good living jobbing to everyone under the sun. So did Steve Lombardi, the Brooklyn Brawler. Those guys got their ass kicked just about every week, and were happy to do so. That was their job. These legends that Vince is supposedly humiliating have each done their fair share of ridiculous angles, had stupid storylines that made little sense, etc. They understand something you don't. The job isn't to look good on TV, the job is to entertain the fans. If that means getting beaned on the head with a coconut or chair, that's what it means. If that means coming out of retirement to give a wrestling clinic like Steamboat, that's what it means. If that means being the RAW guest host for a week, that's what it means. Pro wrestlers aren't wrestlers. They are physical actors, storytellers.

Wrestling is different than acting because actors choose their roles, they can work for any number of different directors and producers because it is an open market with plenty of opportunities. Wrestling is much more of a niche market, these wrestlers have a very specific set of skills and try to market them to the company that has more or less a monopoly on wrestling. An old actor can still act just as well as a young one, probably even better, but an old wrestler is often a liability and has no permanent place in a business that is built around young men in their primes. You compare the Brooklyn Brawler to some of the other wrestlers, if you asked Hulk Hogan to go back and switch his careers with Steve Lombardi what do you think he would say? The Brawler got his niche in wrestling through losing because thats what he did best, if it suits someones character and mentality to win then that is what they should be doing. Triple H's character is largely based on winning most of the time, so if he were to come back in twenty years and participate in humiliating angles, as well as jobbing to every young guy on the roster, do you think that this is just another addition to his great impact on wrestling?

Of course many wrestlers have had ridiculous storylines, it is a surreal sport that people watch for the entertainment and escapism that it provides. Most of the wrestlers only put up with angles they are unhappy with because they are under contract, or because they are reassured that the angle is only to tide them over until a more gratifying one comes along. For the older wrestlers there is no eventual emotional payoff, there is no light at the end of the dark, if they come back to wrestling it is only going to benefit others in the long run. Choice is an important aspect of our lives, if I was in a job I couldn't stand I would just leave, and i'm sure you would do the same. For these past their prime wrestlers they do not feel they have a choice, and this is where the tragedy of a life of wrestling and nothing else really comes into play.

 

[Davi323]

Your answer is bullshit, because you use "not knowing what is in Vicki's heart" as an excuse, yet pretend to know exactly why other wrestlers keep coming back. Its a double standard you are applying. But, you can't even make up your own mind on that...you claim you can't know what is in her heart, yet, then claim that you find it "highly unlikely that she doesn't need money, that wrestlers aren't exactly known for their great management of finances, and Eddie was said to even worse than most." So, which is it? You claim this as being the most likely reason she came back, but, in your previous post, claimed that you can't know why she came back.

As to legacies...was Rowdy Roddy Piper an all-time legendary heel before coming back?
Was he an all-time legendary heel afterwards? The answer of course, is yes to both. You want to claim that these legends have somehow tarnished their legacies by coming back...okay, based on what? This is your chance to explain, in no unsimple terms, exactly how their legacies are somehow tarnished because they made a few appearances on TV last year. But you know what? You can't. There is no way you can explain how they stopped being icons, how they stopped being legends, just because they decided to come back for a bit. And what did they get out of it? Well, for Snuka, Steamboat and Piper, what they got was a fucking trip to WRESTLEMANIA. Oh yeah, boo fucking hoo, they really got screwed over by Vince!

How are you somehow better at losing than another wrestler, when its completely based on the whims of the promoter, and has nothing to do with actual ability? The Brooklyn Brawler kept losing because the WWF at the time needed wrestlers to put over other wrestlers. That isn't being better at losing, its being better at putting people over. Its called being "enhancement talent". And how did Vince repay him? He gave him a job backstage, that to the best of my knowledge, he is still at. He also has a Jakks action figure. I wasn't comparing Lombardi to Hogan, I was saying that even when you are asked to lose consistently, in wrestling, it doesn't matter. You can still make a good living. So Snuka gets a coconut cracked on his head by Jericho? So what? It was paying homage to a Piper's Pit segment two decades ago. It was honoring him, not demeaning him.

Exactly which young guys were the legends you mentioned jobbing to? I seem to remember them in a program with Chris Jericho, who, is the current World Heavyweight champion, main eventer, and has been for quite some time. They weren't jobbing to young guys, they were losing to one of the best wrestlers in the WWE.

I was unaware of a retirement stipulation in the Piggy James angle, yet you claim she couldn't continue her career, unless she won? Based on what? Faces end up on the short end of the stick all the time. In fact, how is this ANY different than the "Molly Holly has a fat ass" feud years ago? With the divas, they are going to feud about things women might fight over...like one calling another fat. Because as we all know, that NEVER happens, does it? In fact, here is a news item that was posted earlier, its on the news sections of Wrestlezone right now, as I type this:

In a recent interview with Kansas.com, WWE Diva Mickie James defended the Piggie James story line by saying the following: "Everyone was probably picked on at some point in their lives. So it really touches people's heartstrings. Everyone knows how that feels or can relate to that in some way. People can become involved in that because they can feel it."

Wait...Mickie was DEFENDING the storyline? I thought you claimed she was being punished for gaining weight? You can't believe every rumor you read about.

The WWE HOF is all about loyalty to Vince? What a complete load of crap. What loyalty was ever demonstrated by Antonio Inoki? Antonino Rocca? Arnold Skaaland? Verne Gagne? The Von Erich clan? What, because Kerry was employed by Vince for a year, Kevin is beholden to Vince? How about Cowboy Bill Watts? When was he employed by Vince? Billy Graham? He hates Vince. How about Bobo Brazil, Buddy Rogers, Gordon Solie, Killer Kowalski, the Sheik or the Valiant brothers? What exactly does Vince hold over their heads? There are LOTS of members of the WWE Hall of Fame that have never worked for Vince McMahon, so exactly how can Vince use the HOF as a political tool? Further, there is already a Professional HOF, in addition to the WWE HOF. So, it isn't like those wrestlers who you claim Vince is keeping out don't have another venue. Your HOF argument is even more ridiculous than your other ones.

Sorry Chris, you just got schooled, boy.