New England: A Dynasty of Cheaters?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shocky

Kissin Babies and Huggin Fat Girlz
Boy oh boy, heads are going to roll on this one. So I'm sure that the NFL fans in here know what I am talking about.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

Chris Mortensen covers the NFL for ESPN.


I mean, I understand a competitive edge, but lets call a spade a spade, this is cheating in it's most blatant form. This is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Plus there are rumors going around that the Patriots attempted something like this at Lambeu Field last year in Green Bay.

So, what do people think about this, and what should the consequences of these actions?

For me, I think Goodell is going to come down hard. His track record so far proves it, and not punishing the Pats because they are the Patriots would be ridiculous and send a bad sign. IF it were up to me, I would probably make the Patriots forfeit this game, suspend Bellichick for 4 games, and suspend anyone else involved with it for just that long. Plus, I would start taking away draft picks. This should not be tolerated in the least, and a heavy penalty needs to come down immediately.

I really think if it goes to the Competition Committee, the same feelings are going to come down. The Competition Committee is really strict on stuff like this. Ultimately though, I think Roger is going to be a pussy, and take away a draft pick.
 
Oh boy I was wondering if someone was going to make a thread about this, at first really didn't think it was that big of a deal then it came to my attention that this is a blantent violation, and what really pissed me off was that they did it last year to my Packers, the nerve of them, anyway I hope they get rape up the ass for this, you break the rules you have to pay the price, and they broke a rule, a big rule, my question is how many years have they been doing this for?, is this the reason they have won all of the SBs that they've won?, and does this tarnish their legacy of those teams in anyway in anyway?, I'm really interested to see what happens with this
 
Ya, that's my feelings on it. Now i'm sure the people of New England don't care, because they are carrying around those trophies, but to me, I think it has to put question marks on those superbowls now, especially since there is a track record of it. Then the nerve of some of the New England players saying, "hey, we work hard, just look at us on the field, why do we need to cheat, look at how good we are." Um, do you realize how stupid you sound. maybe you look so good because you know the other teams play book. Some athletes are just ignorant.

I guess the punishment is looking to be "several" draft picks from what I've read, anything short of a Number 1 would be a crime. i still think any members of the coaching staff involved should be suspended for 4 games.
 
I guess the punishment is looking to be "several" draft picks from what I've read, anything short of a Number 1 would be a crime. i still think any members of the coaching staff involved should be suspended for 4 games.

If it were me as Commissioner I would take all of their Draft picks for this next year away, all 7 of them, then I would suspend the Coaching staff, giving Belichek the most, I'm thinking 5-6 games, the rest would serve 4 games, then you would have to fine the franchise a shit load of money, I want the punishment to be severe so that other teams will see and say "Oh fuck that, it's not worth it", and hopefully this will never happen again, because it's wrong
 
There is not much to say other than that Dictator Goodell will come down hard on the Pats as he will want to send a message to the rest of the league that this better not happen again. I mean this makes the Pats look bad as it seems now people will begin to question all their wins since Bill been the coach. Though I know teams steal signs on the field but this is just wrong and really cheating,

I hope Dictator Goodell comes hard I like to see them forfeit their win from sunday and give up their 1st-3rd round picks and some 4 games suspension for the coaching staff.
 
Sure, people cheat in sports. In baseball they steal signals. In football they bring in a guy for a week, someone who was just cut by the team they're going to play, pump him for information and let him go on Monday. They'll even plant spies at each other's practices.

But the things that make this Patriots flap so bothersome are the following:

• The arrogance of the organization, the smugness. We are the greatest, with the greatest coach, a genius, etc. What other team ever had its owner, Bob Kraft in this case, take the Super Bowl trophy overseas in the name of world peace. What'll he take this year, the videos of the defensive signals?

• The fact that this is nothing new. Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with this club.

• Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.

Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.

"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, was talking to Bengals' coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," Lewis said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.

"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."

He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.

The stories are all coming out now, but why hadn't all this been reported to the league office before this?

"At the time, you never know for sure," Millen said. "And if you don't know it at the time, then you don't feel right reporting it later."

As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?

"He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."

I asked the former Patriot, who knows the organization well, if Mangini could in any way be held responsible for being part of a system that encouraged cheating. He paused for a moment to decide how to get this right.

"You have to understand that organization," he said. "You have to understand how incredibly tight the ring is. Information is not just passed around. Even if you might be aware of something, you're not going to know exactly how everything works. Eric was an employee there. He was not privy to every decision. His own operation was clean. Sure, he knew other stuff was going on, but how was he supposed to handle it?

"The amazing thing is the incredible arrogance they showed, coming into Giants Stadium, facing an organization with all those ex-Patriots employees, and still trying to cheat."

Here's a hard question. How tainted does Tom Brady now become, as the quarterback who was the recipient of stolen goods?

"That's a tough one," my source said. "Tom also is an employee there. He does what he's told. I'll say this about Tom Brady. Not only is he an employee, but he's a damn good quarterback and a fine person."

Everyone is secretly enjoying seeing the mighty Patriots being brought to earth.

"Irony, that's what my father loved best," said Art Rooney Jr., the Steelers' former player personnel director. "This would have been perfect for him."

Just as much fun is speculating about the severity of the penalty the league will issue, from a slap on the wrist -- such as a fine -- to a loss of draft choices, to a punishment in the old style. How does a public flogging and some time in the stocks sound?

"What the league ought to do," Raiders owner Al Davis once said about an earlier infraction, "is create its own jailhouse, the Official NFL Prison, out in the Mojave desert somewhere, like Barstow. Then if someone is really guilty of something, they can say, 'OK, two weeks in the joint for you.'"

Davis once was considered the king of the cheaters. As a beat reporter covering the Jets, my trips to Oakland were like a journey to a war zone. One widely believed story was that the visiting teams' locker room was bugged.

"Nah, I don't believe that," said Ron Wolf, who was Davis' personnel man for a number of years. "I mean what would he really find out? But there was a feeling around the place that all the offices were bugged."

Then there was the suspicion that the field, which was below sea level to begin with, was secretly watered to slow down the speed teams. That one never was proved, either, but on one Saturday, when the Jets were going through their workout, a maintenance crew started rolling a tarp across the Oakland Coliseum field.

"Take one more step," defensive coach Walt Michaels said, raising his cleats, "and I'll punch a hundred holes in this thing." The workmen backed off.


It appears now that Pats coach Bill Belichick and Raiders owner Al Davis have more in common than multiple Super Bowl rings.
AP
And some years later, when Michaels was the Jets' head coach, his team was facing the Raiders in a playoff game in Oakland. At halftime a goofy fan somehow got through to Michaels on the Jets' locker room phone.

"I knew who it was and his name was Al Davis," was the way the coach began his postgame press conference.

Then there was the trip -- when Joe Willie was the Jets quarterback -- during which the Jets found some extra company on their bus from practice to the hotel, the Edgewater Hyatt in Oakland. I was sitting up front, talking to Weeb Ewbank. All of a sudden the coach's face froze. His jaw started quivering in anger.

"Schleicher ... Schleicher," he growled. "Damn you Schleicher, get off this bus. Driver, stop the bus!"

Sitting in the seat right across the aisle from me was gigantic Maury Schleicher, an ex-Chargers linebacker, one of Al's boys. He had planted him on the Jets' bus.

"Weeb, we're right in the middle of the highway," he pleaded.

"Off, get off! Now!"

My last vision of Maury Schleicher was him standing by the side of Route 17, trying to thumb a ride.

"Coaches get paranoid," Rooney said. "Chuck Noll always used to worry that the other team had spies in the crowd at our training camp. So he took the numbers off all the rookies. I'd say to him, 'Coach, I'm not going to know who they are.' He'd say, 'Nah, we know all those guys.'

"I swear, there were times when I think we kept the wrong player."

Still unanswered in this controversy is the question of how the Patriots' videotaping system really worked. The cameraman, whose name is Matt Estrella, would have had to have worked fast, recording hand signals and matching them with his own down and distance comments, which were recorded, thereby establishing a little glossary before they could be used. Then, after he'd gotten the signal, he'd have to make contact with the offensive coach, who would have to get the message to the quarterback, all in the space between plays.

"You have to wonder how much all this really would help," Millen says. "If you've done your film study, you should have a pretty good idea, from the personnel on the field and the tendencies they've shown, what they're going to be in."

"What it does," said our ex-Patriots source, "is give the other team extra work, and as I said, that creates a playing field that's not level for both teams."

The Jets beat the Patriots with an exotic blitz package last season. Last Sunday New England went with a maximum security package to control the feared blitzes.

Max security was brought about in most dramatic fashion by the old Greatest Show, the St. Louis Rams, coordinated by Martz. It was, in fact, my favorite play that this high-powered offense ran. Bring in the big guys, 290-pound tight end Manumaleuna, and 270-pound fullback Hodgins, build a wall around Kurt Warner, send only two guys out, Bruce and Holt, each running like hell downfield, and, fortified by plenty of time to throw the ball, let 'er fly. Never mind how many people were covering downfield. A real schoolyard play, but terrific to watch.

And that's what New England had prepared for the Jets. They loaded up with 280-pound tight end Kyle Brady or 330-pound extra tackle Ryan O'Callaghan, gave Brady an hour to throw the ball, which also allowed his receivers to clear any kind of coverage. What does the defense do in a situation like this? Well, Arizona beat the Giants one year by outguessing them when they max-protected. Rather than wasting blitzers on a wall like that, the Cardinals rushed fewer people and dropped everyone into coverage and had them popping up in odd lanes -- two receivers, in other words, trying to beat the coverage of eight people. Warner, who was the Giants' QB in those days, and his receivers were overmatched. The Patriots weren't because they had Randy Moss.

The showpiece play of the day was his 51-yard TD, which has been described as a one-man pattern, although there probably was some minimal action taking place on the other side. It was a freak play. Moss blew by a half-hearted bump by rookie corner Darrelle Revis and ran a gliding, meandering, crossing pattern that took a while to develop -- past LB Jonathan Vilma, who said a quick hello and goodbye, past safety Erik Coleman, who got a good look at the number on Moss' back, past the corner on the other side, David Barrett, who came over to see what all the excitement was about, and in for six. To old subway riders it was like the A train on the express track between 59th and 125th ... past 72nd, click, past 81st, click, 86th, click ...

Was this the result of sign-stealing? Maybe that's what the Patriots will argue about when they face Sheriff Goodell, that this was just normal, not abnormal, strategy, and spectacular individual effort.

Everyone has stories about picking up tips and hints. Mike Reinfeldt, who's now the Titans' GM, once figured out the Bengals' run or pass tendencies when he was a Raiders safetyman.

"He told me," Ron Wolf said, "that he could tell by the way Bob Trumpy, their tight end, put his hand on the ground before the snap. He could see by the pressure."

Once I was involved in one of these things myself. I covered Houston's victory over San Diego in the 1979 Divisional Playoff. An Oilers safetyman named Vernon Perry intercepted four Dan Fouts passes that afternoon, and my story was that Houston had stolen the Chargers signals. A Cincinnati writer ripped me to shreds in print, saying that I'd gotten together with Houston's defensive coordinator Eddie Biles and cooked up the story in an effort to get the head coaching job for Biles.

Actually it was Gregg Bingham, an Oilers linebacker, who had told me about it, in the locker room, without spelling out how it worked. I found out when I ran into Bingham in a bar in the off-season.

"Very simple," he said. "We read Fouts' feet before the snap. When they were square, he would hand off on a running play. When one was behind the other, it was going to be a pass. Worked every time."

A simpler era. A happier one. No fancy electronics. No white collar NFL crime.

That is a damning article from Sports Illustrated.

This pisses me off more and more when this goes on. I really want to hear from XFear, since he lives in Boston. I would love to hear how the Boston media is playing this.

It pisses me off, because it has been happening apparently since at least the 2004 season. That was the last time the Bengals played in Foxboro. Carson Palmer was shredding the Pats up, and this game was his coming out party. So the headset supposedly goes out, and Palmer ends up injured that game, ending his season. The Bengals miss the playoffs that year by one game.

I can't see how someone isn't suspended for a good chunk of the season after this.
 
From ESPN.com

The NFL slapped Bill Belichick with a maximum fine of $500,000 Thursday night for videotaping Jets' defensive signals Sunday. The Pats were fined $250,000 and will lose a '08 first-round pick if they reach the playoffs; or second- and third-round picks if they miss the playoffs

I have to say that is a good fine though they should still forfeit the win against the Jets and I would have been happier. But if I dunno this peatly still seems pretty soft IMO as Goodell could have done more but I guess this will have to do for now but still weak IMO.
 
Well they will make the playoffs so that 1st round pick is out the window for next year. That's a pretty big fine but like you said I think he should have taken it harder on the Pats. Goodell really didn't set the bar with the Pats to make other teams fear of getting a big penalty if caught cheating. I'm surprised no suspensions or forfeit of a game as well. Goodell has been hard on players recently but seemed to lighten up here.
 
Ya this is a big slap on the wrist in my opinion, especially with evidence to suggest that this has been going on for years.

So lets look at the draft situation. If they make the playoffs, they lose their NFL appointed first round pick. but lets not forget, NE has two first round draft picks in next years draft, one thanks to a trade with SF. So instead of having two first round picks, they will only have 1 first round, and there 2nd and third.

Now if they miss the playoffs, they forfeit rounds 2 and 3, but still get two first round draft picks. This is a bullshit penalty for this kind of action. Let's call a spade a spade. If this were the Oakland Raiders and Al Davis, the shit would have hit the fan. If this were the Bengals and all the "thugs" on the team, multiple game suspensions. It just happens to be that the model franchise of the last 5 years got caught, and instead of admitting that maybe, just maybe their dynasty is tainted, the NFL slaps them on the wrist.

I've supported Goodell so far, but this is just way to soft.
 
You guys are all really overreacting here. There is zero "evidence" to show that this has been going on for years. The only "evidence" there is are a bunch of teams who always get their asses handed to them by the Pats complaining and saying "They cheated!".

The only true FACT that we all know about this, is that an assistant video director for the Patriots was caught videotaping the Jets defensive coordinators. That is it. There are no other facts to this case. So Green Bay comes out and says they did the same thing now and that apparently makes it true?

Excuse me, but where is the evidence? Where are the facts? If they did this to you last year Green Bay, then why the fuck did you wait over a year until this happens to say anything? If this apparently has been going on for "years", WHY HASN'T ANYONE SAID ANYTHING?

Of course I'm biased on the subject considering I'm a life long Patriots fan. But still, lets look at this in a criminal case type of way. WHERE ARE THE FACTS?

I believe the punishment was just to a certain degree. Though I love Belichick, I too agree he should have been suspended for a few games definately. Still though, keep in mind that this is the first time in NFL HISTORY that the commisioner has taken a draft pick from a team and fined them almost a million dollars. That is unprecedented, so the punishment was fair to the team.

In no way at all does this negate the 3 Super Bowl wins the Pats have. In no way whatsoever. If you think it does, then the 1975 Reds never really won the World Series because of Pete Roses gambling. I understand the competitive edge gained in stealing signals, but think about this logically people.

You have about 40 seconds on the play clock for each down. The guy steals the signals, relays them to the Coaches, who then relay them to the QB on the field and audible for any blitz that may be coming....that would take about a minute at the least. In no way could you do all of that in 40 freaking seconds, nevermind the fact that the Pats routinely snap the ball with atleast 10 seconds left on the play clock. Thats 30 seconds they have to do all of this. Thats ludicrous. Now some of you may be saying "Oh but they'll save those for the next time they face this team.." COME ON PEOPLE. THIS IS THE NEW YORK JETS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. That team is so full of crap it's ridiculious, I just can't help but laugh my arse off everytime someone says the Jets are gonna give New England a run for its money, when they have absolutely zero offense.

Stealing signals has been done in football since it began. Joe Gibbs, the current coach of the Redskins who won 3 Super Bowls with the team in the early 90s was under investigation for stealing signals. Every team has done it, the Patriots just got caught doing it.

In no way whatsoever does this tarnish their reputation in my opinion, because you know for a fact that the NFL was all over this weeks game with the Chargers making sure absolutely no cheating was going on, and look what happened----the Chargers got completely and totally DESTROYED by New England. Without any videotaping. Do you really think a team with Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Junior Seau, Adalius Thomas, Rodney Harrison, Richard Seymour, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, and Donte Stallworth needs to cheat in order to win? Do you really think that?

This doesn't change anything to me. The Pats are still the best team in the league, and they still won 3 Super Bowls. If they "cheated" in those super bowls, explain why they won two of them in the last 5 seconds of the game with a field goal? If they cheated in those games, let me just say that they need to try a lot harder to cheat better then that.
 
I was perfectly fine with the consequences of th so called cheating of the Patriots. IMO i believed Goodell handled this situation well. In a world of Professional sports cheating is used for an advantage, this is the world of sports and if you aint cheating you aint trying. Come on, I believe the half a million dollar fine to coach Bill was good because he deserved it for being that dumb to get caught. The team also got fined a quarter million. I believe the use of video camera was nothing really, the people shooting the video isnt out there throwing touchdowns or making tackles, he is doing nothing. This game is basically used for the fact is that the PLAYERS have to make plays which they have because they are fully loaded and the Best team in the NFL.

This is just a competitive edge. Yes they got caught but this doesnt take away the fact is that they won three super bowls. People saying that games should be forfeited is absurd because its a game of yards, the filming of the defense doesnt take to the fact is that they drove down there kicked the game winning field goal in the Snow in the playoff game or the game winning field goal against the rams inside the dome. did that filming make tom brady drive his team down there to get in range for Vinatierri to kick that field goal, I Think Not. The Filming has done nothing the Players still got to go out make plays and win the game and for the last like 6-7 years they have been doing that in an ERA with free agency, that is a great accomplishments. As the Fans of The NFL have no proof that other teams arent doing it they just havent got caught yet.

This little incident doesnt tarnish there legacy, the penalties were strict with the money and the loss of a first round draft pick or a second and a third rd draft pick. This doesnt take away the fact that they got caught cheating, But they are simply better than basically any other team in the NFL. If it involves cheating though i want a reason like the person above me pointed out, I want ot see proof that how is the cheating going to affect the fact is that they won SB and playoff games on last second fieldgoals and last second goal line stops. Gosh if thats all they had, they needed to give a little more than a video tape.
 
  • Like
Reactions: X
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
174,837
Messages
3,300,747
Members
21,726
Latest member
chrisxenforo
Back
Top