NBA Offseason

[A11oftheLights]

Guess Paul George is a complete moron too? Because he just did the same
thing.

Seriously fuck off. You have no idea

Please tell me how Paul George requested a trade. He only told the Pacers he was going to LA and then they traded him. Everyone else in that situation were morons. The pacers could have got a better deal from the celtics and okc traded for a rental

You are very good at making examples and using stats but the problem is you twist them to tell another tale. Showing me the all-time turnovers doesnt prove anything and PG didnt make a trade request

 

[LBGetBack]

Seriously fuck off. You have no idea

Please tell me how Paul George requested a trade. He only told the Pacers he was going to LA and then they traded him. Everyone else in that situation were morons. The pacers could have got a better deal from the celtics and okc traded for a rental

You are very good at making examples and using stats but the problem is you twist them to tell another tale. Showing me the all-time turnovers doesnt prove anything and PG didnt make a trade request

LOL! So you're mad at me because you keep posting stupid shit, and I keep shutting it down with facts? Grow up.

You said that James Harden is bad with the ball, and that Kyrie Irving is a moron for wanting to be traded without giving up his impending free agency.

You're the one trying to twist things by saying George "didn't make a trade request".....lol. Ummm....yeah, in effect that's what he did. Told them he was leaving so they pretty much had to trade him to get something.....in effect, that's a trade request. And he isn't committing to OKC.

And how is posting the all time turnover leaders twisting anything? You said Harden isn't good with the ball because he had a lot of turnovers. Nash, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, etc. had a lot of turnovers. Were they not good with the ball? Or do you just selectively say dumb shit with no real logic or factual basis?

 

[JGlass]

Decades? Yeah i doubt it. You would have to be a poorly run organisation to be bad after 20 years of high draft picks.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Before LBJ Cleveland had a grand total of one division title. They were on, I think, a seven year playoff drought before he was drafted. They were awful before and I don't see fortunes changing after LeBron. Look at their draft picks under Dan Gilbert to see why they are never going to achieve anything with him owneing the team if LeBron isn't at the helm. Anyone remember Anthony Bennet? I think his latest team is the Krispy Kreme req league team. Cleveland sports is a factory of sadness. Like literally take away LeBron and what do they have to show accomplishment wise in sports? A World Series way back before color TV.

In other news, the league is trying to ban trades like the one the Nets made a few years back when they got Garnett and Pierce for all the picks. This article has more on the proposal.

https://clutchpoints.com/league-looking-for-ways-to-prevent-another-nets-like-draft-pick-giveaway/

I have to wonder, with the Nets being in a major market, is that the reason why? If a small market team made a similar trade, would the league try to ban the move?

 

[LBGetBack]

My predicted standings based on rosters now:
East:
Boston
Cleveland
Washington
Milwaukee
Toronto
Charlotte
Miami
8. Detroit

Philly
NY
Orlando
Indiana
Brooklyn
Atlanta
Chicago

West:
GS
Houston
San Antonio
OKC
Minnesota
Denver
Portland
8. Clippers

Utah
New Orleans
Memphis
Dallas
Lakers
Suns
Kings

Looks like there will be heavy competition for those late few playoff spots out west. I think the 6-8 seeds and the first 3-4 teams out won't be separated by much.

I'd love to see Philly get in. If I felt good about Embiid's health, I'd put them over Detroit even with all their youth.

 

[A11oftheLights]

LOL! So you're mad at me because you keep posting stupid shit, and I keep shutting it down with facts? Grow up.

You said that James Harden is bad with the ball, and that Kyrie Irving is a moron for wanting to be traded without giving up his impending free agency.

You're the one trying to twist things by saying George "didn't make a trade request".....lol. Ummm....yeah, in effect that's what he did. Told them he was leaving so they pretty much had to trade him to get something.....in effect, that's a trade request. And he isn't committing to OKC.

And how is posting the all time turnover leaders twisting anything? You said Harden isn't good with the ball because he had a lot of turnovers. Nash, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, etc. had a lot of turnovers. Were they not good with the ball? Or do you just selectively say dumb shit with no real logic or factual basis?

So here's the thing. Shit players who turn the ball over constantly dont get huge minutes and dont last long in the league, fuck who would have thought that hey? So of course the ALL TIME turnover stats are going to be skewed with legends who played for ages. Thats called twisting it to fit a narrative. Analyzing the single season provides the proof that Harden and Westbrook were terrible with the ball this season. Obviously they have reasons for the high turnovers (they both become the guy that runs the show)but it doesnt change the fact that the single worse thing you can do is turn the ball over

And as for PG he has been up front the whole time saying he wants to go to LA. Thats not demanding a request thats letting management know his intentions so that they can plan their recruitment and all that better. If they think trading him is the best option then thats what they're going to do. Compare that to Kyrie who has demanded a trade to organisations despite not having a no trade clause and then later on has refused to commit. This is a guy that thinks he is in the same category as Lebron and can make owners bend to his will. He cant. There are plenty of guards these days

 

[A11oftheLights]

While thats a fair point. The reason the browns are shit is not because two of their best players left within a year of each other. My point was more if your franchise is still a piece of shit after two decades the problem isnt the players

 

[LBGetBack]

So here's the thing. Shit players who turn the ball over constantly dont get huge minutes and dont last long in the league, fuck who would have thought that hey? So of course the ALL TIME turnover stats are going to be skewed with legends who played for ages. Thats called twisting it to fit a narrative. Analyzing the single season provides the proof that Harden and Westbrook were terrible with the ball this season. Obviously they have reasons for the high turnovers (they both become the guy that runs the show)but it doesnt change the fact that the single worse thing you can do is turn the ball over

And as for PG he has been up front the whole time saying he wants to go to LA. Thats not demanding a request thats letting management know his intentions so that they can plan their recruitment and all that better. If they think trading him is the best option then thats what they're going to do. Compare that to Kyrie who has demanded a trade to organisations despite not having a no trade clause and then later on has refused to commit. This is a guy that thinks he is in the same category as Lebron and can make owners bend to his will. He cant. There are plenty of guards these days

So shit players won't last long.....ok. Guess what else? Shit players don't have the ball in their hands enough to lead the league in turnovers. You know who does? Great players that have to carry the entire load for their teams. Seriously, you're just being stubborn here. Harden and Westbrook literally had to carry their teams entire offense.

George told Indiana he's not staying. That might as well be a "trade request".

I'm still laughing at Kyrie being a "moron" for not giving up his up coming free agency. Why would he gave that up?

 

[A11oftheLights]

Yeah your a brick wall mate

 

[LBGetBack]

Yeah your a brick wall mate

You just said that 2017 MVP and runner up are "not good with the ball". And you're sticking to it. LOLSMH.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Because they arent. Especially russ. How many times was Westbrook criticised for poor decision making and just jacking up trash shots because they were chasing games. Just because two people had very good seasons in points, assists and rebs doesnt mean they cant have poor seasons with turnovers. The two of them didnt just beat the turnover record for a season they smashed it. Thats why they are bad with the ball

 

[LBGetBack]

Because they arent. Especially russ. How many times was Westbrook criticised for poor decision making and just jacking up trash shots because they were chasing games. Just because two people had very good seasons in points, assists and rebs doesnt mean they cant have poor seasons with turnovers. The two of them didnt just beat the turnover record for a season they smashed it. Thats why they are bad with the ball

LMAO. "Good with the ball" doesn't just mean lack of turnovers. If a guy scores 29 ppg and dished out 11 apg then he's.......nevermind. It's not worth it. Keep posting dumb shit.

This might be the worst point I've seen anybody attempt to make.

 

[A11oftheLights]

LMAO. "Good with the ball" doesn't just mean lack of turnovers.

This might be the worst point I've seen anybody attempt to make.

FMD

Obviously it isnt. BUT CAN YOU JUST READ THE PART WHERE I SAID THEY DIDNT JUST PASS THE TURNOVER RECORD THEY SMASHED IT

 

[A11oftheLights]

James Harden's turnovers per game have increased every year but one, his second year at Houston he only had 3.6 a game down from 3.8 the year before. On top of that he averaged just under 6 a game this season (5.7) which saw him pass the record for single season turnovers (which he already held) of 374 with about 17 games to spare. The single season record for turnovers stood for 38 seasons and then Harden broke it back to back years. That is terrible

 

[LBGetBack]

James Harden's turnovers per game have increased every year but one, his second year at Houston he only had 3.6 a game down from 3.8 the year before. On top of that he averaged just under 6 a game this season (5.7) which saw him pass the record for single season turnovers (which he already held) of 374 with about 17 games to spare. The single season record for turnovers stood for 38 seasons and then Harden broke it back to back years. That is terrible

Nobody cares. That's why he was MVP runner up. The role he plays for his team is something completely new too. Nobody gets 29 and 11. His usage rate is off the charts. I'd suggest 1. Watching more basketball. 2. Attempting to make sense of the stats. You clearly don't get it. Yikes.

 

[A11oftheLights]

go fuck yourself

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Let's be real, the MVP almost always goes to whoever scores the most points. It's the same reason in football the MVP often goes to a quarterback who threw a lot of touchdowns. It's why the MVP in baseball used to almost always go to the guy who hit the most home runs. In recent years, thanks to advanced stats and sabermatrics in baseball, the MVP has shifted its dynamic, often taking into account all facets of the game.

Whenever the sports writers who vote on the NBA MVP decide that they are sick of LeBron winning MVP, hey Derek Rose, they just go with a guy who had a hot scoring hand. With Westbrook, he had an absolute mental season. He deserved the MVP after doing something that had never been done. Harden had a good year, but he mostly coasted on being the best player on a team that didn't have anyone near his level of talent. There is a reason that Russ and Harden score so much, they don't have anyone else on their team who is a legit and consistent threat. With the arrival of PG and CP3 respectively, that should change, but both guys are typically viewed as being bad with the ball. Just because you put numbers in the assist colum, that doesn't mean you are good with the ball. Just because you turnover the ball a lot, that doesn't automatically make you bad. Both guys have a reputation for shooting bad shots too often. If you run the offense, as both guys do, but you've made up your mind before the inbounds pass that you are going to shoot no matter what, that is a bad decision and makes you bad with the ball. If you refuse to pass, that makes you bad with the ball. If you spend too much time trying to dribble or try to constantly get to the basket, that makes you bad with the ball. Both guys do all things.

Being good with the ball isn't just about assists. Getting an assist requires a fair amount of luck, because you are dependent on the other guy making the shot. Then there is the whole making the pass that sets up the assist argument. In hockey, you guys can assist on a goal. I'm not 100% convinced that basketball needs to adopt that, but being a good passer is about more than just assists and being good with the ball is about making smart decisions when the ball is in your hand.

And just scoring a lot of points doesn't make you good. Look at all the college players who topped scoring charts then were total busts in the NBA. Scoring 40 is nice, but there is such a thing as shooting your team out of the game and Russ and Harden have both done that. Derek Rose did it in the playoffs the year he was MVP. Kobe did it a lot post Shaq.

If you prefer a fast and loose high scoring style of basketball, that's fine, but no team is ever going to win a title with Russ or Harden as the focal point.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Hey brick wall did you read that?

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

If you judge a player based upon offensive stats alone, you should watch actual games. Harden is an awful defender and doesn't make average or below average players any better. Westbrook is better, but has some of the same problems. Irving will more than likely join that group. Lots of things out there have no real measurable statistic.

 

[LBGetBack]

Hey brick wall did you read that?

Hey asswipe....Harden is an awful defender and bad with the ball. MVP Runner up. You're sticking with that? LOL!

Stick to rugby, you don't know shit about hoops.

 

[LBGetBack]

Let's be real, the MVP almost always goes to whoever scores the most points. It's the same reason in football the MVP often goes to a quarterback who threw a lot of touchdowns. It's why the MVP in baseball used to almost always go to the guy who hit the most home runs. In recent years, thanks to advanced stats and sabermatrics in baseball, the MVP has shifted its dynamic, often taking into account all facets of the game.

Whenever the sports writers who vote on the NBA MVP decide that they are sick of LeBron winning MVP, hey Derek Rose, they just go with a guy who had a hot scoring hand. With Westbrook, he had an absolute mental season. He deserved the MVP after doing something that had never been done. Harden had a good year, but he mostly coasted on being the best player on a team that didn't have anyone near his level of talent. There is a reason that Russ and Harden score so much, they don't have anyone else on their team who is a legit and consistent threat. With the arrival of PG and CP3 respectively, that should change, but both guys are typically viewed as being bad with the ball. Just because you put numbers in the assist colum, that doesn't mean you are good with the ball. Just because you turnover the ball a lot, that doesn't automatically make you bad. Both guys have a reputation for shooting bad shots too often. If you run the offense, as both guys do, but you've made up your mind before the inbounds pass that you are going to shoot no matter what, that is a bad decision and makes you bad with the ball. If you refuse to pass, that makes you bad with the ball. If you spend too much time trying to dribble or try to constantly get to the basket, that makes you bad with the ball. Both guys do all things.

Being good with the ball isn't just about assists. Getting an assist requires a fair amount of luck, because you are dependent on the other guy making the shot. Then there is the whole making the pass that sets up the assist argument. In hockey, you guys can assist on a goal. I'm not 100% convinced that basketball needs to adopt that, but being a good passer is about more than just assists and being good with the ball is about making smart decisions when the ball is in your hand.

And just scoring a lot of points doesn't make you good. Look at all the college players who topped scoring charts then were total busts in the NBA. Scoring 40 is nice, but there is such a thing as shooting your team out of the game and Russ and Harden have both done that. Derek Rose did it in the playoffs the year he was MVP. Kobe did it a lot post Shaq.

If you prefer a fast and loose high scoring style of basketball, that's fine, but no team is ever going to win a title with Russ or Harden as the focal point.

Funny that you point out Houston didn't have much talent around Harden, point out that's why he had to do everything for them offensively.....but you didn't point out their record.

Russ carried a weak OKC team to a pretty good record too.

Both guys are viewed as phenomenal offensive talents. That's why Houston's entire offense was designed around having the Ball in Harden's hands. Looks like it worked it pretty well.

This discussion is absolutely asinine. Two of the best players in the league are "bad with the ball".

By the way, your last sentence is the EXACT same thing people used to say about Jordan. He was a "ballhog" and didn't play the "right way" like Bird and Magic. LOL.

 

[LBGetBack]

If you judge a player based upon offensive stats alone, you should watch actual games. Harden is an awful defender and doesn't make average or below average players any better. Westbrook is better, but has some of the same problems. Irving will more than likely join that group. Lots of things out there have no real measurable statistic.

No? Explain Houston's record then. Average/below average players + Harden the awful defender who makes nobody better and is terrible with the ball. Explain the record.

Watching the games is extremely important. There's no way the Aussie does so.

Harden was first team All NBA and literally received every possible vote. All 100 voters put him on first team. "BAd with the ball".....LMAO.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I can only think of one guy in my entire life who was a shoot first guard who played average at best defense that actually carried his team to being legit contenders and that was Iverson. Even then, he didn't do it completely alone. A lot of people like to remember Iverson dragging a team of bums and stealing a game from the Lakers in LA all by himself, but he was helped by Mutumbo, who was an All-Star and defensive player of the year that year, Aaron McKie was 6th man of the year, and Eric Snow who Kobe once called the best defender to ever guard him. Oh and they had Larry Brown as head coach, not that he ever made the Hall of Fame or anything. Iverson was sexy, but that team put in the work on the boards and was a fantastic defensive team.

So yeah, just scoring a bunch of points may make you look good and get you video game covers, but Irving is going to go down on a long list of talented scorers who couldn't get it done without a proper cast around him. Look, I'll argue against LeBron all day, but what do you have to lose from being his #2? I mean, how many people look back at Pippen and downplay his accomplishments because Jordan was better? Kyrie can chalk it up to the Mamba Mentallity and ride on Kobe's jock all he want, but Kobe still needed help in the form of Shaq and later Gasol.

 

[LBGetBack]

I can only think of one guy in my entire life who was a shoot first guard who played average at best defense that actually carried his team to being legit contenders and that was Iverson. Even then, he didn't do it completely alone. A lot of people like to remember Iverson dragging a team of bums and stealing a game from the Lakers in LA all by himself, but he was helped by Mutumbo, who was an All-Star and defensive player of the year that year, Aaron McKie was 6th man of the year, and Eric Snow who Kobe once called the best defender to ever guard him. Oh and they had Larry Brown as head coach, not that he ever made the Hall of Fame or anything. Iverson was sexy, but that team put in the work on the boards and was a fantastic defensive team.

So yeah, just scoring a bunch of points may make you look good and get you video game covers, but Irving is going to go down on a long list of talented scorers who couldn't get it done without a proper cast around him. Look, I'll argue against LeBron all day, but what do you have to lose from being his #2? I mean, how many people look back at Pippen and downplay his accomplishments because Jordan was better? Kyrie can chalk it up to the Mamba Mentallity and ride on Kobe's jock all he want, but Kobe still needed help in the form of Shaq and later Gasol.

So how did Houston win 57 games this year, the third best record in the league? How that happen?

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Funny that you point out Houston didn't have much talent around Harden, point out that's why he had to do everything for them offensively.....but you didn't point out their record.

Russ carried a weak OKC team to a pretty good record too.

Both guys are viewed as phenomenal offensive talents. That's why Houston's entire offense was designed around having the Ball in Harden's hands. Looks like it worked it pretty well.

This discussion is absolutely asinine. Two of the best players in the league are "bad with the ball".

By the way, your last sentence is the EXACT same thing people used to say about Jordan. He was a "ballhog" and didn't play the "right way" like Bird and Magic. LOL.

I never said a guy like Harden or Russ couldn't lead you to a good record. I said guys like that will never lead a team that is a true contender. Neither OKC or Houston were true contenders last year. In the NBA, there are 30 teams and 16 of them make the playoffs. That is over half the teams in the league, but that doesn't mean every playoff team is a contender. I mean, if you want a mid tier seed and a second round playoff exit each year, then yeah I guess Harden is working out well.

And not once has anyone called either guy a bad player. They are both good players. You can be good and still have flaws, which both guys have.

Out of curiosity, what makes a player good with the ball? All you are doing is pointing to their scoring prowess and solid assist numbers, and screaming that they are good with the ball.