NBA Offseason

[Slyfox696]

Laettner was such a visible guy....he was the veteran star player on 2 straight national champions, I think he was the "face" of Duke basketball for a long time in people's minds even after he left.

Greg Paulus liked to flop. There was a well circulated gif when he played of him falling down when there was at least a foot of space between him and the offensive player. Fans don't like floppers.

Collins and Wojo would get chippy out there, always yelling and overcelebrating, slapping the floor, etc. Those types tend to draw the ire of opposing and many neutral fans, especially when they are marginal players. Recall Wojo literally sticking his feet out and trying i to trip Ed Cota as Cota handled the ball at the top of he key. He was basically playing footsie with him.

Brian Davis had those qualities too, plus he was well known as Laettners inseperable buddy.

Basically, Duke does a lot of flopping defensively. They're hardly the only team as it became a bit of a college bball epidemic the last 15 years or so, but Duke is one of the poster children for it and rightfully so.

Duke has seemingly had a lot of those chippy, fiery, sometimes a little dirty type players over the years and a good number of them were fairly mediocre players which makes it worse to people.

But, as you said, that's hardly unique to Duke. So why is it different for Duke than it is for say, Syracuse? Or Louisville? Or Arizona?

I'll grant the idea of Laettner as the face of Duke for a while, but by '99, I'd say that was gone. The team Duke had when Trajan Langdon (still probably my favorite college ballplayer name ever) was a senior and they lost to UConn was nothing like those early 90s Duke teams.

So I guess what makes Duke different than those schools who do the same thing?

I think it's two fold, at least for me it is.

1) It's the winning. In all sports I tend to dislike the teams who are consistently at the top. Part of it is a jealousy thing. I'm fortunate that most of my rooting interests in both pro and college sports have had success in my lifetime. The Colts won it all in '06, the Braves won it all in '95 and have more division titles than I can count, the Pacers have never been basement dwellers, IU Basketball had some good runs, Texas football won a title with Vince Young. I've had some good moments in my life. Teams like Duke though always seem to be at the top.

And I understand disliking for the winning. But I would argue the program's image and values would trump that.

For example, I absolutely despise Kansas as a Missouri fan, but I can recognize that Self has mostly run a clean program and seems to have kids of a fairly high quality.

2) The fans. I don't think Duke fans are the worst, usually I reserve that for New England fans or fans of Notre Dame football (sorry Sly), but they are up there for most entitled/persecuted. They act like if they don't make it to the Sweet 16 it's the fault of the refs or some BS conspiracy by the NCAA to keep them down.

I haven't noticed that really. I see LOTS of people ripping on Duke, but I haven't seen this as much.

Also, us Notre Dame fans are the best in the country. Don't forget that.

Plus, they never seem to accept that they have had some real shit bag players. Yeah, every program with the spotlight that Duke has on it is going to face increased scrutiny, but there are large groups of fans who believe Grayson is treated unfairly.

He is and he isn't. He doesn't deserve the relentless hatred he gets, no college kid does. However, there's no doubt his actions first caused it.

I don't hate them like I hate, say, UK, but there isn't an ounce of my being that would ever root for them.

I root for Missouri basketball and Notre Dame football first and foremost. But then I root for Mizzou football and Duke basketball second. And I think when you look at Duke as a whole, you look at the fairly highly quality kids they've had, the number of kids they graduate and the degrees they earn, etc., I don't see why one would dislike Duke, unless they were a UNC fan (or still not over the '92 regional final).

 

[LBGetBack]

But, as you said, that's hardly unique to Duke. So why is it different for Duke than it is for say, Syracuse? Or Louisville? Or Arizona?

I'll grant the idea of Laettner as the face of Duke for a while, but by '99, I'd say that was gone. The team Duke had when Trajan Langdon (still probably my favorite college ballplayer name ever) was a senior and they lost to UConn was nothing like those early 90s Duke teams.

So I guess what makes Duke different than those schools who do the same thing?
And I understand disliking for the winning. But I would argue the program's image and values would trump that.

For example, I absolutely despise Kansas as a Missouri fan, but I can recognize that Self has mostly run a clean program and seems to have kids of a fairly high quality.

I haven't noticed that really. I see LOTS of people ripping on Duke, but I haven't seen this as much.

Also, us Notre Dame fans are the best in the country. Don't forget that.

He is and he isn't. He doesn't deserve the relentless hatred he gets, no college kid does. However, there's no doubt his actions first caused it.

I root for Missouri basketball and Notre Dame football first and foremost. But then I root for Mizzou football and Duke basketball second. And I think when you look at Duke as a whole, you look at the fairly highly quality kids they've had, the number of kids they graduate and the degrees they earn, etc., I don't see why one would dislike Duke, unless they were a UNC fan (or still not over the '92 regional final).

I'm confused what you mean in saying Syracuse, Louisville, Arizona "do the same thing"? What thing? Flop? I don't watch much Arizona, but Syracuse and Louisville don't do much flopping. They don't really recruit the same type of kids that made Duke hated either.

You said by '99 Laettner had faded.....you remember Wojo right? He was the most hated player in college bball in like '97-'98. People couldn't stand him. They often seem to have that type of kid on their team. Syracuse and Louisville don't have Wojo's.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm confused what you mean in saying Syracuse, Louisville, Arizona "do the same thing"? What thing? Flop? I don't watch much Arizona, but Syracuse and Louisville don't do much flopping.

My wife is a Louisville grad and I watch more than 20 games a year. They flop like any other team, just like Duke. And you want a terrible flop?



So why does Louisville not get the same kind of attention?

They don't really recruit the same type of kids that made Duke hated either.

What kind of kids are those? Hard working players? Louisville has those. Guys who celebrate? Montrezl Harrel would flex his biceps after every dunk.

What kind of kids?

You said by '99 Laettner had faded.....you remember Wojo right?

Sure, but he wasn't a jerk or anything, just passionate.

He was the most hated player in college bball in like '97-'98. People couldn't stand him.

Perhaps...but why? What's wrong with a passionate player who played hard and never did anything wrong?

What did Wojo do that we don't see players do all the time which are far more egregious? He slapped the floor on defense...what else?

They often seem to have that type of kid on their team.

What kind of kid is that? A hard worker? Louisville had Russ Smith for years, every bit the busy body of Steve Wojciechowski and he was demonstrative as well. What's the difference?

 

[LBGetBack]

My wife is a Louisville grad and I watch more than 20 games a year. They flop like any other team, just like Duke. And you want a terrible flop?



So why does Louisville not get the same kind of attention?

What kind of kids are those? Hard working players? Louisville has those. Guys who celebrate? Montrezl Harrel would flex his biceps after every dunk.

What kind of kids?

Sure, but he wasn't a jerk or anything, just passionate.

Perhaps...but why? What's wrong with a passionate player who played hard and never did anything wrong?

What did Wojo do that we don't see players do all the time which are far more egregious? He slapped the floor on defense...what else?

What kind of kid is that? A hard worker? Louisville had Russ Smith for years, every bit the busy body of Steve Wojciechowski and he was demonstrative as well. What's the difference?

Well one difference is that Smith was good and Wojo wasn't. Another was that Wojo would receive an outsized amount of credit for how hard he worked. He'd have announcers like Vitale going on and on about how hard he played and worked. He got defensive player of the year! Lol. I'm a Cuse fan and Wojo couldn't even check Jason Hart when they played in the NCAAs! Hart wasn't even a particularly good offensive player(but was a WAY better defender than Wojo and also worked his butt off - but got none of the same credit). This little kid getting 7 points, 5 assists, and fouling getting all this credit? Cmon.

Lol at he was "just passionate"....I gave you another example besides floor slaps. He blatantly tried to trip players. Those Ed Cota ones got a lot of run on tv highlights back then, but that was before the Internet was the way it is now so it might be harder to find. Cota used to absolutely murder Wojo too, lol. I recall Cota saying something like "he fouls a lot and gets away with it." He was an irritant and hacker and tried to trip people. Not hard to see why he was hated.

Like I said, flopping has become a bit of a college bball epidemic. So many teams do it now, and it's one of the reasons that the game kinda sucks now. Duke was one of the primary torch bearers for that.

Cuse and Louisville didn't typically go after the same players Duke does. Duke has switched it up in recent years and now goes after them. But that's been a major change in recruiting direction for them. A smug, Kyle Singler type? Yeah, that a classic Duke kid. Like.....I can't even picture him playing elsewhere.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well one difference is that Smith was good and Wojo wasn't.

All the more reason to find it incredibly strange to dislike Wojo.

I mean, how can one express dislike for being good and for not being good?

Lol at he was "just passionate"....I gave you another example besides floor slaps. He blatantly tried to trip players. Those Ed Cota ones got a lot of run on tv highlights back then, but that was before the Internet was the way it is now so it might be harder to find. Cota used to absolutely murder Wojo too, lol. I recall Cota saying something like "he fouls a lot and gets away with it." He was an irritant and hacker and tried to trip people. Not hard to see why he was hated.

...again, how is that different from the vast majority of players in college basketball? You could watch a game every night and see a guy foul a player who goes by them on a defense. I cannot find Wojo tripping Cota, so I can't speak to that, but again, it hardly seems any different from any other player.

So why is it different?

Like I said, flopping has become a bit of a college bball epidemic. So many teams do it now, and it's one of the reasons that the game kinda sucks now. Duke was one of the primary torch bearers for that.

I've watched basketball a very long time and I've never noticed that. I know fans always have thought Duke gets more calls than other teams, but I've never noticed that to be true. Certainly they have a history of shooting more free throws than other teams, but any coach worth their salt knows that suggests better coaching, rather than official favoritism. And since it has always been a focus/goal of Duke teams, it doesn't seem that surprising it's something they do well.

Cuse and Louisville didn't typically go after the same players Duke does. Duke has switched it up in recent years and now goes after them. But that's been a major change in recruiting direction for them. A smug, Kyle Singler type? Yeah, that a classic Duke kid. Like.....I can't even picture him playing elsewhere.

Why is Kyle Singler smug? Why is Montrezl Harrel not smug? Why can't Singler play for Louisville or Indiana?

Again...what kind of players are you talking about here? Because I think I'm starting to get the picture of what kind of players you're talking about.

 

[LBGetBack]

All the more reason to find it incredibly strange to dislike Wojo.

I mean, how can one express dislike for being good and for not being good?

...again, how is that different from the vast majority of players in college basketball? You could watch a game every night and see a guy foul a player who goes by them on a defense. I cannot find Wojo tripping Cota, so I can't speak to that, but again, it hardly seems any different from any other player.

So why is it different?

I've watched basketball a very long time and I've never noticed that. I know fans always have thought Duke gets more calls than other teams, but I've never noticed that to be true. Certainly they have a history of shooting more free throws than other teams, but any coach worth their salt knows that suggests better coaching, rather than official favoritism. And since it has always been a focus/goal of Duke teams, it doesn't seem that surprising it's something they do well.

Why is Kyle Singler smug? Why is Montrezl Harrel not smug? Why can't Singler play for Louisville or Indiana?

Again...what kind of players are you talking about here? Because I think I'm starting to get the picture of what kind of players you're talking about.

I edited and added to that last post apparently after you were already responding. See my first paragraph for expanded thoughts on Wojo and "not being that good".....he got credit he didn't deserve!

Lol at tripping "hardly seems different than any other player"....what? I have very rarely seen a player do what Wojo was doing. That's why I remember it from 20 years ago!

Many years Duke launches a ton of threes so....no, they really shouldn't be shooting more FT's in those situations. They got all the calls in the Battier era. Jason Williams should've fouled out of the 2001 National title game like 2 times! He was mugging cats out there with no calls.

My man, I know exactly what you're going for and trying to lead me into saying. You can just say it yourself if you want?

 

[Slyfox696]

I edited and added to that last post apparently after you were already responding. See my first paragraph for expanded thoughts on Wojo and "not being that good".....he got credit he didn't deserve!

That doesn't exactly seem like his fault, does it?

Lol at tripping "hardly seems different than any other player"....what? I have very rarely seen a player do what Wojo was doing. That's why I remember it from 20 years ago!

Again, I'd need video as I do not know the Cota incident you reference. But I see players sticking their legs out all the time to keep the offense from going by them.

Many years Duke launches a ton of threes so....no, they really shouldn't be shooting more FT's in those situations.

Duke has always attacked the rim hard. Shooting many threes doesn't mean you can't still attack the rim. Furthermore, it doesn't prevent playing very skilled, disciplined and well taught defense, which Duke has always done.

Shooting more FTs does not mean the refs favor them.

My man, I know exactly what you're going for and trying to lead me into saying. You can just say it yourself if you want?

Look, I'm not saying it's necessarily your opinion, but I think we both know why you're referring to Laettner, Wojo, Singler, Scheyer (??), etc, and yet not talking about Rasheed Sulaimon, Chris Jones, Montrezl Harrell, Frank Mason III, any Bob Huggins team, etc.

Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily your position nor that those players you mentioned aren't mentioned as reasons to dislike Duke. I just find it interesting those players who do things you can see on any other basketball roster are considered terrible only on Duke. Kind of like how a quarterback celebrating in the NFL is only a bad thing when Cam Newton does it.

 

[LBGetBack]

That doesn't exactly seem like his fault, does it?

Again, I'd need video as I do not know the Cota incident you reference. But I see players sticking their legs out all the time to keep the offense from going by them.

Duke has always attacked the rim hard. Shooting many threes doesn't mean you can't still attack the rim. Furthermore, it doesn't prevent playing very skilled, disciplined and well taught defense, which Duke has always done.

Shooting more FTs does not mean the refs favor them.

Look, I'm not saying it's necessarily your opinion, but I think we both know why you're referring to Laettner, Wojo, Singler, Scheyer (??), etc, and yet not talking about Rasheed Sulaimon, Chris Jones, Montrezl Harrell, Frank Mason III, any Bob Huggins team, etc.

Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily your position nor that those players you mentioned aren't mentioned as reasons to dislike Duke. I just find it interesting those players who do things you can see on any other basketball roster are considered terrible only on Duke. Kind of like how a quarterback celebrating in the NFL is only a bad thing when Cam Newton does it.

I didn't say it was his fault. Neither was the way he played....he was short and slow, he had to do what he could to make up for that and stick with faster and more athletic players. It was certainly annoying though. Ain't like its some character flaw, but in the context of sports those type of guys are always "hated". Especially when they get too much credit. Defensive player of the year? In the entire country? If he's that good of a defender, why did he only play one season of pro ball in Poland?

Those UNC-Duke '97-98 games are all on YouTube. I ain't watching them all to try to find it(I don't remember which game it was) but if I can narrow down which game it happened in I can probably find it eventually.

Duke's defensive strategy often consists of overplaying everything on the perimeter, and sliding in and taking charges when the guards get beat. It's often worked for them, but it's contributed to the ridiculous amount of offensive foul calls, flops, and taken out the ability to get to the basket. Many of those that were called charges, should not have been charges. Watch any other level of bball....NBA, high school, overseas pro....and you won't see that nearly to the same level.

Race and sports will always be there. Why was Eric Devendorf so hated? Lots of players talk a lot of shit.

Why were Webber, Rose, and them hated at Michigan? They were getting hate mail from their own alums!

 

[LBGetBack]

And I should say that I, personally, hate Louisville more than Duke. That's because my team has had more success against Duke. Louisville players hack, clutch, and grab the whole game, Pitino is always out on the court(I would legit pay to see a player throw the ball at him so it makes contact with him while he's on the court or run into him on purpose to make the refs do something), and Pitino is good at working the refs and getting calls whenever they're losing. Throw in the prostitute thing.....nah. I like nothing about them.

But speaking generally, they haven't had those players that strike a chord nationally like Duke.

 

[Slyfox696]

Those UNC-Duke '97-98 games are all on YouTube. I ain't watching them all to try to find it(I don't remember which game it was) but if I can narrow down which game it happened in I can probably find it eventually.

I'd appreciate it. I'm not going to watch all of them for that moment either.

Duke's defensive strategy often consists of overplaying everything on the perimeter, and sliding in and taking charges when the guards get beat.

It's somewhat more complicated than that and often times depends on personnel. We can both agree, however, they put a strong focus on helpside defense and taking charges.

It's often worked for them, but it's contributed to the ridiculous amount of offensive foul calls, flops, and taken out the ability to get to the basket.

But no more than any other team.

Many of those that were called charges, should not have been charges.

Again...how is that different from any other team?

Watch any other level of bball....NBA, high school, overseas pro....and you won't see that nearly to the same level.

Please. I've coached more games than I could begin to count and have watched exponentially more college games. I see charges called blocks and blocks called charges all the time and at every level. Duke is not favored in any way when it comes to that.

Race and sports will always be there. Why was Eric Devendorf so hated? Lots of players talk a lot of shit.

I think Devendorf kind of supports my point, does it not?

Why were Webber, Rose, and them hated at Michigan? They were getting hate mail from their own alums!

I'd argue culture more than race, as black players were already prevalent throughout the sport at the time.

But then are you agreeing with me the fact Duke has had so many successful white players has contributed, in part, to Duke hatred? Certainly they're not the only program with high quality white players, but certainly they are the most high profile and with the most media exposure.

Again, I'm having a hard time understanding how Kyle Singler was smug, but Montrezl Harrell, who flexed his biceps after every dunk, somehow wasn't as bad. How Wojo was an irritant worthy of extreme hatred by playing hard, but Russ Smith wasn't hated.

 

[LBGetBack]

I'd appreciate it. I'm not going to watch all of them for that moment either.

It's somewhat more complicated than that and often times depends on personnel. We can both agree, however, they put a strong focus on helpside defense and taking charges.
But no more than any other team.

Again...how is that different from any other team?

Please. I've coached more games than I could begin to count and have watched exponentially more college games. I see charges called blocks and blocks called charges all the time and at every level. Duke is not favored in any way when it comes to that.

I think Devendorf kind of supports my point, does it not?

I'd argue culture more than race, as black players were already prevalent throughout the sport at the time.

But then are you agreeing with me the fact Duke has had so many successful white players has contributed, in part, to Duke hatred? Certainly they're not the only program with high quality white players, but certainly they are the most high profile and with the most media exposure.

Again, I'm having a hard time understanding how Kyle Singler was smug, but Montrezl Harrell, who flexed his biceps after every dunk, somehow wasn't as bad. How Wojo was an irritant worthy of extreme hatred by playing hard, but Russ Smith wasn't hated.

Again.....Duke was doing it first. It's a copycat thing. Just like everyone started mugging cutters off the ball and clutching and grabbing......Butler ball. Were they the only one? No. But they had a lot of success with it and others followed.

The block/charge is screwed up at all levels......the emphasis on trying to take charges is much more a college thing though.

Devendorf was a white kid who was "acting black"(in the eyes of many fans) with his shaved head, tats, and shit talking. A black kid wouldn't get the same level of flack for that stuff. Marshall Henderson similar, though he was so incredibly extra with it that he would've been hated no matter what.

Duke has had a high number of white kids who act like tools. That's the difference. I mean, Cuse has had some white kids. Devendorf was the only one I remember being hated by opposing fans. I don't remember much Gerry McNamara hate. Or Andy Rautins hate. Or Tyler Lydon hate. They weren't particularly demonstrative or smug acting out there, weren't hackers....they pretty much just played the game. McNamara had a knack for going 2 for 12, and then burying two big threes in the final minutes to take the lead and going 6-6 from the line in the last minute to clinch it......opposing fans might've "hated" him for that, but it's different.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Look, hatred of Duke is often times irrational as hell. I'm from Kentucky, meaning I'm a UK fan. Meaning I hate Duke, North Carolina, Florida, Louisville, and a few other teams irrationally. I'm sure they probably hate us too. I can tell you that our hatred of Duke started around '92 when Christian Laettner hit THE SHOT in the NCAA Tournament. Well that shot was against us and it cost us our NCAA title that year as we had a damn good team that year.

In sports, it's ok to irrationally hate teams and players I think. It can be healthy. For example, I hated Grant Hill for his entire career because he was on that Duke team. I hate JJ Reddick because he's from Duke. For the longest time I hated LeBron James just cause. I've always hated the Lakers and I really can't tell you why. That's what sports is all about.

Oh, also I hate the Patriots and the Cowboys too. Really for no reason at all.

 

[LBGetBack]

Still don't understand all the hate on Kyrie wanting to be his own man. People having a cry just because he doesn't want to play with the King, get over it. The guy has won, won, won and now wants to properly lead his/a team in his prime, go Kyrie.

Not to mention, Lebron/Gilbert tried to trade him. Hardly anybody in the media wants to talk about that part for some reason though.

 

[Khalifa]

Oh, also I hate the Patriots and the Cowboys too. Really for no reason at all.

Surely Skip and his 'Cowboys this, Cowboys that' is one of the biggest reasons why you hate the cowboys, because it doesn't help me like them anymore.

 

[LBGetBack]

Surely Skip and his 'Cowboys this, Cowboys that' is one of the biggest reasons why you hate the cowboys, because it doesn't help me like them anymore.

The "America's Team" BS, and Jerry Jones meddling and being "all in the videos" make them easy to hate. Jerry's recent "stand for the anthem or you won't be on my team" doesn't help for me either....though I'm sure that made him more likable to a good amount of football fans.

 

[Khalifa]

And I'm a Eagles fan. Not a good combination.

 

[Sai the Uganda Guy]

I'm a die-hard Cowboys fan, but it's definitely, definitely not because of Jerry Jones or Skip Clueless.

 

[Slyfox696]

Devendorf was a white kid who was "acting black"(in the eyes of many fans) with his shaved head, tats, and shit talking. A black kid wouldn't get the same level of flack for that stuff.

Exactly. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Duke has had a high number of white kids who act like tools. That's the difference.

And this is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Every program has kids who act like tools...why does the fact they are white matter? Or, more appropriately, why should it matter?

I don't remember much Gerry McNamara hate.

I do. Not nearly as much as Devendorf though.

 

[LBGetBack]

Exactly. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

And this is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Every program has kids who act like tools...why does the fact they are white matter? Or, more appropriately, why should it matter?

I do. Not nearly as much as Devendorf though.

McNamara hate? Really? From neutral fans? I don't remember it. Not nearly to the same level as Wojo, Collins, Redick, Paulus, etc......because McNamara didn't act like a tool, he just played the game.

As for as your "why should it matter"? Yeah, I know. I'm not agreeing with it. But stereotypes and profiling exist. A white kid with a shaved head and tats and talking junk makes fans mad for one reason. A white kid who looks like a preppy kid with his pretty little haircut slapping the floor and flopping and fouling and getting away with it makes fans mad for another reason. It is what it is. Black kids who are extra demonstrative catch a lot of flack for it too. Duke's had a ton of those kids.

The kids who just play ball......like a Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Mike Dunleavy.....if they get hate it's usually just the jealousy "that guy is so good and killing us, I can't stand him" type. Duke's been good, they've had a lot of annoying players, their student fans are annoying, there's a feeling that they get more calls than most teams, their Coach can be a bit of a sore loser.......recently he had no business talking to an opposing player about his on court behavior, and after losing to Cuse he didn't even shake hands with most of them and then spent the presser going on and on because Duke didn't get a loose ball foul call on a pure 50/50 ball that the Cuse player got. Annoying.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Are we still going to say Kyrie is not an idiot? The whole i want a trade but am not willing to commit to a team i'm traded to is completely moronic

 

[Da Prophet]

I really hope Cleveland just refuse to trade him and make him play out the final two years of his deal.

 

[Khalifa]

I really hope Cleveland just refuse to trade him and make him play out the final two years of his deal.

I've always thought teams should do this but in reality losing Kyrie for nothing would be stupid. Potentiallu losing James and Irving for nothing would ruin the Cavs for decades.

It's such a catch 22 but. Owners literally give fuck all about their players if they're injured or not performing but as soon as a player says the same to an organization it's the worst thing that could be said. There is a reason why the average playing career is like 3 years or some bullshit like that.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Decades? Yeah i doubt it. You would have to be a poorly run organisation to be bad after 20 years of high draft picks. There is no way two players can have that big of an impact

 

[Khalifa]

Yeah it was a big call.Timberwolves have sucked for a long time with high draft picks though. Cleveland were lucky they picked Kyrie or all their picks were not really the standard of a lottery player, let alone top 5. I'm more talking about free agent destination. They still have love so depending on what they get for Kyrie and if Lebron does leave, he should get them to the playoffs as a number one option. Much like OKC, Pacers, Jazz etc, no star player is going to want to play for them unless they already have a star. You could probably make that case for any team not named Lakers, Celtics and Knicks (probably throw the Texas teams in there but I don't know how attractive Spurs are without Pop) but having all these players leaving is not a good image. Hometown King Lebron could leave for a second time, so to suggest Cleveland is anything but a shit organization is a joke.

 

[LBGetBack]

Are we still going to say Kyrie is not an idiot? The whole i want a trade but am not willing to commit to a team i'm traded to is completely moronic

Guess Paul George is a complete moron too? Because he just did the same
thing.