Moral Dilemnas In The Modern World.

[Super Crazy]

In recent years, I have found that people's careers can simultaneously be ruined by the mistakes of their personal lives. Now I'm not just talking celebrities, but I shall use two major examples here. The first being Chris Brown, and the second being Tiger Woods.

In 2008, Chris Brown turned heads everywhere, not with his music, but with his hands. He had physically abused fellow singer and star Rihanna, who at the time, was his girlfriend. Now I know what he did to her was wrong, and i know he deserved the punishment he received for it, but in my eyes he is receiving a much bigger punishment. Stores are apparently refusing to sell his CDs now. To me , this is absolutely ridiculous. Why should what a man does in his personal life and his mistakes effect his career in such ways?

Now in 2009, Tiger Woods is turning heads everywhere. What first seemed to be a lowly incident involving him crashing his car, has spiralled into him cheating on his wife, and several women coming forward saying he slept with them too. Now, news reports state that some of Tiger's sponsors are withdrawing their support from him. Now, the man is an excellent golfer, again, why should his personal life and mistakes cause problems for his golfing career?

Now I realize that both men have millions of dollars and can support their families pretty decently if they were to downsize, and sell off some of their lavish past expenses. But that is not the point here. In my opinion, it is none of our business what goes on in someone's private life? Why should we care that Tiger cheated on his wife? Why should we care that Rihanna was abused by Chris Brown?

I feel this has everything to do with the tabloids and paparazzi. Now, I'm not saying that these people don't have the right to do what they do. By all means, go ahead and take photos of famous people and publish stories about them. But why should we honestly care what goes in the lives of those who are more well off then us? Without the existence of paparazzi or tabloids, that we would not know of either of these situations. Just so I'm clear though, when I say tabloids, I don't mean respectable newspaper companies, I mean the low end magazine companies that publish utter crap.

Now, onto the more public area of this. Let's say your neighbor is sleeping around. Let's say he's been sleeping around with all the wives in the neighborhood, and rumor has it, he slept with yours too. If you both work for the same company, would you go in and bitch about it to everyone you work with, thus alienating him at work, and potentially costing him his job if the boss were to find out about this? I can understand, people after this situations, feel anger and hatred towards the other man, but does that make it just and right to cost a man and his family his livelihood?

Now my question to you, the IWC of Wrestlezone Forums is, do you feel the same way I do? Do you feel that a man's personal life and the mistakes he makes in them should effect his career/livelihood? If so, go right ahead and tell me why. If not, tell me why you agree with me.

 

[Loveless]

Well the reason they're punished is to send a message that what they did isn't acceptable. Look, these people get paid huge sums of money, not just to be exemplerary in their talent but in their life as a whole.
Tiger Woods hasn't made millions by being a great golfer, he made it through sponsorship that was based on him being flawless in general. Obviously it's wrong that being exceptional at one thing means you should be everywhere else but that's how sponsorship is. Tiger Woods allowed himself to be put on a pedestal and got paid huge sums of money. On the other side of that deal, his sponsors are paying huge ammounts for his image (which he has damaged) which leaves them out of pocket in various ways.

If you're in the public eye and allow yourself to be considered a role model or get paid to be an example, your behaviour has to be exceptional, that's what you're getting paid for.

That felt like rambling. Meh

 

[FromTheSouth]

In recent years, I have found that people's careers can simultaneously be ruined by the mistakes of their personal lives. Now I'm not just talking celebrities, but I shall use two major examples here. The first being Chris Brown, and the second being Tiger Woods.

I think I know where this is going.

In 2008, Chris Brown turned heads everywhere, not with his music, but with his hands. He had physically abused fellow singer and star Rihanna, who at the time, was his girlfriend. Now I know what he did to her was wrong, and i know he deserved the punishment he received for it, but in my eyes he is receiving a much bigger punishment. Stores are apparently refusing to sell his CDs now. To me , this is absolutely ridiculous. Why should what a man does in his personal life and his mistakes effect his career in such ways?

Think about this from the stores perspective. If they continue to sell his music, they set themselves up for boycott and for protest and for negative media attention. They don't give a fuck about Chris Brown. They care about their bottom line, and in this free market economy, nothing should be more important. Chris Brown messed up, and got punished by the law. There is no way that this is a good reason for private stores to suffer the wrath of the angry mob in order to make a statement about privacy rights.

Now in 2009, Tiger Woods is turning heads everywhere. What first seemed to be a lowly incident involving him crashing his car, has spiralled into him cheating on his wife, and several women coming forward saying he slept with them too. Now, news reports state that some of Tiger's sponsors are withdrawing their support from him. Now, the man is an excellent golfer, again, why should his personal life and mistakes cause problems for his golfing career?

It poses absolutely no threat to his golfing career. I do not remember any proclamations from the PGA that he couldn't play any more. His sponsors have every right to remove him from their campaigns. He simply isn't as marketable right now as he was. The goal of these companies is to make money, not give Tiger an ego boost and tell him everything is alright. He is an adult, and he understands that there are consequences to his actions. That didn't stop him. The true question is - Why do you think that businesses should have to suffer through the negative attention they would get for supporting these men? If the celebrities don't deserve to go through the public shaming, why do the businesses who didn't hit or cheat on any women? Fuck Chris Brown's and Tiger Woods' feelings. They're the dumbasses that fucked up a good thing, and if anyone has to suffer, it should be them, not a record store or watch company.

Now I realize that both men have millions of dollars and can support their families pretty decently if they were to downsize, and sell off some of their lavish past expenses. But that is not the point here. In my opinion, it is none of our business what goes on in someone's private life? Why should we care that Tiger cheated on his wife?

We shouldn't. But people do. Why should a business care shit about Woods if using his image costs them money?

Why should we care that Rihanna was abused by Chris Brown?

Because men shouldn't hit women. And no one should hit Rhianna.

I feel this has everything to do with the tabloids and paparazzi.

It has to do with the free market and purchasing power.

Now, I'm not saying that these people don't have the right to do what they do. By all means, go ahead and take photos of famous people and publish stories about them. But why should we honestly care what goes in the lives of those who are more well off then us?

Then it has little to do with the tabloids. The tabloids and paparazzi exist because American society is a bunch of sycophantic idiots who actually care enough about what someone has in their "crib" or where someone eats. All the tabloids and paps do is provide an avenue for people with shitty lives to fuel their envy.

Without the existence of paparazzi or tabloids, that we would not know of either of these situations. Just so I'm clear though, when I say tabloids, I don't mean respectable newspaper companies, I mean the low end magazine companies that publish utter crap.

And without a celebrity obsessed culture full of people who idolize people as stars for doing nothing of note, the tabloids wouldn't exist. But, while you're bashing them, I will take this opportunity to note the "complete and utter crap" that they publish usually winds up to be true (as far the Enquirer, people, US Weekly, etc, the good ones) and is fact checked just as hard as real stories. I would wager that The Enquirer has broken more news than MSNBC this decade.

Now, onto the more public area of this. Let's say your neighbor is sleeping around. Let's say he's been sleeping around with all the wives in the neighborhood, and rumor has it, he slept with yours too. If you both work for the same company, would you go in and bitch about it to everyone you work with, thus alienating him at work, and potentially costing him his job if the boss were to find out about this?

I imagine most people would. The stupid minutiae that people talk about at work is stupid, inappropriate and in opposition to productivity.

I can understand, people after this situations, feel anger and hatred towards the other man, but does that make it just and right to cost a man and his family his livelihood?

So, the guy fucked my wife and I'm supposed to care his livelihood? Does that make any sense to you at all?

Now my question to you, the IWC

Fuck the IWC smark hacks.

of Wrestlezone Forums is, do you feel the same way I do?

Not ever remotely close.

Do you feel that a man's personal life and the mistakes he makes in them should effect his career/livelihood?

Do you feel that someone else's mistakes should cost a business money?

If so, go right ahead and tell me why. If not, tell me why you agree with me.

I think I did that already. Good post, but you're wrong.

Well the reason they're punished is to send a message that what they did isn't acceptable. Look, these people get paid huge sums of money, not just to be exemplerary in their talent but in their life as a whole.

It doesn't send a message. It sends a message that profit is more important that loyalty, and honestly, I see nothing wrong with that. Tiger Woods has made millions of dollars from these companies that are dropping him. If he is going to go out and make an ass of himself, they don't owe him the fucking time of day if he is going to cost them one red cent. Nike kept him on, which is good for them. I think they see it as the second Tiger walks out and wins The Masters, no one will care. Personally, I don't care. He didn't cheat on me. Unfortunately, I am much smarter and pragmatic than the mass public. So many people feel betrayed. Those people should feel ******ed.

Tiger Woods hasn't made millions by being a great golfer,

Are you fucking kidding me? You get a cool three million for winning a major. He's won 14. He's won something like 58 tournaments. Yes, he has made millions by being a good golfer. It has to be a pretty good income source if people other than Tiger play it without multimillion dollar endorsements.

he made it through sponsorship that was based on him being flawless in general. Obviously it's wrong that being exceptional at one thing means you should be everywhere else but that's how sponsorship is. Tiger Woods allowed himself to be put on a pedestal and got paid huge sums of money. On the other side of that deal, his sponsors are paying huge ammounts for his image (which he has damaged) which leaves them out of pocket in various ways.

Finally, someone made sense in this thread.

If you're in the public eye and allow yourself to be considered a role model or get paid to be an example, your behaviour has to be exceptional, that's what you're getting paid for.

That felt like rambling. Meh

That's exactly right.

 

[Super Crazy]

Do you feel that someone else's mistakes should cost a business money?

No, I don't think that someone's mistakes should cost a business money. I understand that businesses would not want to be viewed wrongly and halt their sales. However, I highly doubt that selling the cds of someone who was abusive to a woman, is going to stop their store from profitting in any way shape or form. I just can't see one artist out of the thousands in the store , causing people to not come to the store, or causing people to boycott the store.

 

[FromTheSouth]

No, I don't think that someone's mistakes should cost a business money. I understand that businesses would not want to be viewed wrongly and halt their sales. However, I highly doubt that selling the cds of someone who was abusive to a woman, is going to stop their store from profitting in any way shape or form. I just can't see one artist out of the thousands in the store , causing people to not come to the store, or causing people to boycott the store.

But that's not the case. It's not that people will stop going there because of who's product they sell. It's the boycotts, the negative media attention - all of the bullshit that oversensitive people use to bully people into not spending their money in places.

It's not like the sales would go to zero, but at a national change a one or two percent drop due to a boycott means hundreds of jobs.

 

[Super Crazy]

But that's not the case. It's not that people will stop going there because of who's product they sell. It's the boycotts, the negative media attention - all of the bullshit that oversensitive people use to bully people into not spending their money in places.

It's not like the sales would go to zero, but at a national change a one or two percent drop due to a boycott means hundreds of jobs.

That's true, I just can't see people going and boycotting stores over it. If anything I could see people showing up to the golf tournaments, boycotting Woods though, giving them negative media attention. If anything, I see worse repercussions down the road for Tiger Woods then will ever happen to Chris Brown. Like I said, I can see people coming and boycotting him while he golfs, and eventually the PGA will do something about it. The question though, is what will they do?

 

[Mr. Steve]

That's true, I just can't see people going and boycotting stores over it.

Nowadays, it can happen. In Chris Brown's case, him being someone that would be on the spotlight more consistently than Tiger, his image will be skewed, and will stay that way because of his aftermath. He'll say he changed, BUT, there's going to be a few percentage that will shit on his every move, and will argue that "Even if he carry out his punishment, he'll go back to hit a woman the first chance he gets." That percentage, however small it may be, has a powerful say if you put them in front of a store that sells Chris Brown Cd's. It's simple word of mouth.

If anything I could see people showing up to the golf tournaments, boycotting Woods though, giving them negative media attention. If anything, I see worse repercussions down the road for Tiger Woods then will ever happen to Chris Brown. Like I said, I can see people coming and boycotting him while he golfs, and eventually the PGA will do something about it. The question though, is what will they do?

Again, it comes down to word of mouth, but in Tiger's case, even if he isn't under the spotlight the same as Chris Brown, his backlash will be worse. That I'll give you. Besides, you're paid to represent a company/music label/whatever it may be. It's standard form to act as a representative to the company you're signed to. It doesn't really matter if it's in the fine print of the contract (although i think it's part of conflict of interest, don't really know for sure), it's standard to behave in a manner that is expected.

Fact is, and I'm going to state my opnion on the matter, it happens. Personal decisions affect your professional life. If Chris Brown was smart enough to not hit a woman (especially Rihanna), it's wouldn't have cost him as much as it is now. If Tiger wouldn't be commiting indiscretions against his wife, he wouldn't be in this mess.

It's a matter of choice, like each and every one of us, they'll make the wrong ones. Thing is, that with the culture that is lived in today, if an artist did commit indiscretions or hit a woman, their consecuences are amplified since they have more to lose than say, you or me.

 

[HBK-aholic]

In recent years, I have found that people's careers can simultaneously be ruined by the mistakes of their personal lives. Now I'm not just talking celebrities, but I shall use two major examples here. The first being Chris Brown, and the second being Tiger Woods.

In 2008, Chris Brown turned heads everywhere, not with his music, but with his hands. He had physically abused fellow singer and star Rihanna, who at the time, was his girlfriend. Now I know what he did to her was wrong, and i know he deserved the punishment he received for it, but in my eyes he is receiving a much bigger punishment. Stores are apparently refusing to sell his CDs now. To me , this is absolutely ridiculous. Why should what a man does in his personal life and his mistakes effect his career in such ways?

Domestic violence is wrong, and stores have every right to not sell his music because of it. It sends out a message that this is wrong, and you will be punished for it. He didn't even go to prison for it, which send out the wrong message; this is one way for people to punish him in a legal way.

I still listen to Brown's music because I like a few of his songs, but I'll never think of him in the same way again, anyone who can do that to another human being, male or female, don't deserve respect.

Now in 2009, Tiger Woods is turning heads everywhere. What first seemed to be a lowly incident involving him crashing his car, has spiralled into him cheating on his wife, and several women coming forward saying he slept with them too. Now, news reports state that some of Tiger's sponsors are withdrawing their support from him. Now, the man is an excellent golfer, again, why should his personal life and mistakes cause problems for his golfing career?

I don't think this is as bad as what Brown did, but if I was a sponser of him I'd also withdraw support. You have the potential for your company to be seen negatively, as if you're condoning his behaviour. A company has every right to draw support after something like this.

Now I realize that both men have millions of dollars and can support their families pretty decently if they were to downsize, and sell off some of their lavish past expenses. But that is not the point here. In my opinion, it is none of our business what goes on in someone's private life? Why should we care that Tiger cheated on his wife? Why should we care that Rihanna was abused by Chris Brown?

Because these people are role models. If a teenager sees his idol, Chris Brown, battering his girlfriend and getting no real punishment, what message does that send out?

Now, onto the more public area of this. Let's say your neighbor is sleeping around. Let's say he's been sleeping around with all the wives in the neighborhood, and rumor has it, he slept with yours too. If you both work for the same company, would you go in and bitch about it to everyone you work with, thus alienating him at work, and potentially costing him his job if the boss were to find out about this? I can understand, people after this situations, feel anger and hatred towards the other man, but does that make it just and right to cost a man and his family his livelihood?

I didn't really care until that bold part. If he has a family, he shouldn't be sleeping around. You haven't lost him is livelihood, he's done it himself.

 

[Super Crazy]

Domestic violence is wrong, and stores have every right to not sell his music because of it. It sends out a message that this is wrong, and you will be punished for it. He didn't even go to prison for it, which send out the wrong message; this is one way for people to punish him in a legal way.

I still listen to Brown's music because I like a few of his songs, but I'll never think of him in the same way again, anyone who can do that to another human being, male or female, don't deserve respect.



I don't think this is as bad as what Brown did, but if I was a sponser of him I'd also withdraw support. You have the potential for your company to be seen negatively, as if you're condoning his behaviour. A company has every right to draw support after something like this.



Because these people are role models. If a teenager sees his idol, Chris Brown, battering his girlfriend and getting no real punishment, what message does that send out?



I didn't really care until that bold part. If he has a family, he shouldn't be sleeping around. You haven't lost him is livelihood, he's done it himself.

I know, this may seem like me switching sides here, but if I may point something out, which I think is a bit wrong. I don't know about the United States justice system, or how it is where you are Becca, but here in Canada, and I learned this from the security guard in where I work, but we have something called alternative measures. We have it for kids and adults. But basically what it is, is if it's your first offense with the law, they go the route of alternative measures, and give you a lesser punishment as to not give a permanent record and potentially ruin soemone's chance of a job.

Now I know, people who steal, and do other criminal acts, don't deserve to work, as who knows if they would do it to their current employer. But my point here is, that Chris Brown deserves to have a record for what he did. I believe he needs it, as to have a constant reminder of the wrong he made at such a young age.

As for what you said about them costing themselves their livelihood, I can agree with that too. But at the same time, why should the things that happen in their lives, be put out in the open for all the public to see? I mean, you have sit and wonder, if celebrities were not plastered all over the news, would anyone except those close to them even know about this?

 

[hatehabsforever]

I personally do not feel it is a valid comparison to speak of what Chris Brown did and what Tiger Woods has been doing as being the same thing.

Chris Brown physically assaulted a woman. This goes well beyond a "moral dilemma," this is a crime, it's against the law. This makes him a vile, repulsive, morally corrupt human being, but it's also a crime and a serious one at that. Chris Brown deserves every iota of negativity which comes his way and if his career suffers (or even ends) because of it, he has no one to blame but himself.

But it's a totally different situation with Woods. Sure the moral dilemma is still there, but the last time I checked, he hasn't broken any laws, or hasn't even been accused of potentially doing so. It's a moral dilemma only, and I personallly don't think his career, his livelihood, or his legacy whould be under fire because of mistakes he made in his personal life.

If Tiger was being accused of murder, attempted murder, rape, assault, or any of another plethora of offences, I would say to hell with him and his career/legacy. But what Tiger did was wrong and makes him a despicable person. Sure, he's a prick, a dirtbag, pick whatever adjectives you want, but as far as I'm concerned, Tiger Woods's infidelity is none of anyone's business, and he should be left alone to resume his career whenever and however he sees fit. If sponsors want to drop him, that's their perogative.

I read somewhere the other day that said something to the effect that Tiger Woods's ordeal was front page news on the New York Daily Times (I think) or some other such prominent newspaper for a record 19 straight days. The next closest record of this nature was 14 days, which was the coverage of 9/11. It's ridiculous that a moral dilemma of this nature has superceded a story such as 9/11 in terms of newsworthiness. Sure, his accident should have been reported. His alleged infidelity should have been reported, perhaps for a day or two, and then leave the man alone and left his life go on. He's going to be punished enough as is. His wife is going to leave him. She'll probably get custody of their kids. He will lose sponsors. He's the butt of jokes on a daily basis.

Moral dilemmas are exactly that, and who are we to throw stones from our glass houses? Leave the man alone and let the finest GOLFER (not necessarily person) resume doing what he does best, and leave the moral dilemmas to those people who claim to not have such skeletons in their closets.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I know, this may seem like me switching sides here, but if I may point something out, which I think is a bit wrong. I don't know about the United States justice system, or how it is where you are Becca, but here in Canada, and I learned this from the security guard in where I work, but we have something called alternative measures. We have it for kids and adults. But basically what it is, is if it's your first offense with the law, they go the route of alternative measures, and give you a lesser punishment as to not give a permanent record and potentially ruin soemone's chance of a job.

Well I don't think battering your girlfriend gives you the right to an 'alternative measure'. He was seen as getting off SO lightly by everyone. It's not sending the right message out is it? Stores not selling his CDs was just a way for people to show what he did was wrong, and I have no problem with it.

As for what you said about them costing themselves their livelihood, I can agree with that too. But at the same time, why should the things that happen in their lives, be put out in the open for all the public to see? I mean, you have sit and wonder, if celebrities were not plastered all over the news, would anyone except those close to them even know about this?

The point is that they ARE plastered all over the news, that's why people care so much. You might think that's wrong, but as I said earlier, now we got to see Rihanna's injuries, know Brown was guilty, and see him get off with almost nothing. I don't think anyone should escape jail for an attack like that, but especially not someone who's seen as a role model.

 

[BladeRunner]

The fact is, people LOVE gossip. Especially about rich people.

Back in the day, all the gossip was about the aristocracy and the king and queen. Nowadays, it's about the "new aristocracy" which is the rich and the famous.

It will never stop because people want to hear about this stuff. People love to pass judgement on each other and feel morally superior. It's also about escapism, a way for people to get away from their humdrum lives.

I think most people would want their private lives to be kept just that, private. What if all of your transgressions were broadcast for everyone to see? Everyone makes mistakes, but what if EVERYONE knew about every one of yours?

One guy said that maybe you should worry about all the crap you've done, instead of dwelling on the misgivings of others. And also if you're in constant judgement of others, prepare to be just as harshly judged back when the time comes.