Mex. region, Guadalajara subregion, 1st round (3) Beth Phoenix vs (14) Chigusa Nagayo

[Bernkastel]

This is a first round match in the Mexican region. It is a standard wrestling match. It will be held at the VFG Arena in Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.

#3 Beth Phoenix

VS.

# 14 Chigusa Nagayo ​

There will be 1 day of discussion before the poll opens. It will remain open for 2 days. Spam rules will apply. In case of a tie the winner will be decided based upon how many people have made a case for them in the discussion thread. One per each poster.

Who wins the match up?

 

[Bernkastel]

Here we have one of the greatest women's wrestlers from Japan against someone from the WWE that was pretty good. Beth dominated the WWE Divas during time periods when quite a few of the competitors were pretty shit, Chigusa dominated in Japan when the competition was pretty fucking amazing. From both a "wow, these girls are amazing to watch" standpoint and a "wow, I can't believe how much fucking money I'm making as a promoter because these girls are awesome" standpoint.

Chigusa was one half of the Crush Gals, a very popular tag team that wrestled internationally. They were one of the greatest teams in Japan regardless of gender. The Crush Gals were really only rivaled by the Jumping Bomb Angels - whom many old school WWE watchers might recognize - in terms of popularity. With that she also excelled as a singles star holding the WWWA belt.

Chigusa founded the all female GAEA Japan in 1995 and with her popularity the promotion went national with sellout shows everywhere. The company championship became so illustrious that it was soon seen on the same level as the AJW and WWWA titles. Many wrestlers of merit held that belt.

So don't vote for Chigusa because she's Japanese, vote for her because she was a bigger draw and a way more popular star, was more influential, had better title reigns with much more longevity, had more charisma, and was a better wrestler in general.

Chigusa should win this thing hands down.

 

[stingray11214]

Here we have one of the greatest women's wrestlers from Japan against someone from the WWE that was pretty good. Beth dominated the WWE Divas during time periods when quite a few of the competitors were pretty shit, Chigusa dominated in Japan when the competition was pretty fucking amazing. From both a "wow, these girls are amazing to watch" standpoint and a "wow, I can't believe how much fucking money I'm making as a promoter because these girls are awesome" standpoint.

Chigusa was one half of the Crush Gals, a very popular tag team that wrestled internationally. They were one of the greatest teams in Japan regardless of gender. The Crush Gals were really only rivaled by the Jumping Bomb Angels - whom many old school WWE watchers might recognize - in terms of popularity. With that she also excelled as a singles star holding the WWWA belt.

Chigusa founded the all female GAEA Japan in 1995 and with her popularity the promotion went national with sellout shows everywhere. The company championship became so illustrious that it was soon seen on the same level as the AJW and WWWA titles. Many wrestlers of merit held that belt.

So don't vote for Chigusa because she's Japanese, vote for her because she was a bigger draw and a way more popular star, was more influential, had better title reigns with much more longevity, had more charisma, and was a better wrestler in general.

Chigusa should win this thing hands down.

Bernkastel, you won my respect. BTW, Chigusa also wrestled Madusa and Hokuto during a spell in WCW. So, Chigusa does have a history in the US. But, it is also sad that her partner, Lioness Asuka, was not in any bracket. Asuka was equally worthy of a place.

But, in this match, Nagayo pummels a truly untested Glamazon.

Let me show you:

Nagayo vs Monster Ripper aka Bertha Faye
[youtube]JuDeRW608TY[/youtube]

Nagayo vs Reggie Bennett
[youtube]20QKFUu_B9k[/youtube]

 

[Reflection]

Beth Phoenix was the most dominating WWE diva of the last decade (that actually had a match)... I don't know anything about the scary-looking lady apart from what I see, but I don't want to comment on her looks for she might track me down and kick my ass.

 

[Bernkastel]

Beth Phoenix was the most dominating WWE diva of the last decade (that actually had a match)... I don't know anything about the scary-looking lady apart from what I see, but I don't want to comment on her looks for she might track me down and kick my ass.

Chigusa was one of the most dominating women's wrestlers period. Not only was she a far bigger draw and a more popular star, like in the world, she enjoyed many more years of relevance in the industry. She also left an impeccable legacy by furthering the industry at the time by founding GAEA Japan and training new stars. It's impossible to say Beth was better.

For men's wrestling hyping up Japanese wrestlers as the "be all end all" is cliche and rather stupid when wrestling in the US and other parts of the world lasted just as long, or much longer, than wrestling in Japan. But in women's wrestling Japan was the only country making money off women during the late 60's and 70's. By the time women's wrestling became popular again Stateside, Japan had produced many bigger stars who had been doing better business for a much longer period of time.

In short... the Joshi's have produced many more "all time" greats than any other country or period in women's wrestling. And Chigusa was one of their elite.

 

[stingray11214]

Beth Phoenix was the most dominating WWE diva of the last decade (that actually had a match)... I don't know anything about the scary-looking lady apart from what I see, but I don't want to comment on her looks for she might track me down and kick my ass.

Smark, she was striped bass in a school of guppies. Ask yourself this question: Could Cameron have lasted in GAEA? Could the Bellas? Could Naomi? Eve Torres? That is what Phoenix had to wrestle with. If Cameron was in GAEA, if Nagayo did not throw her ass out of GAEA's training camp, Cameron would have been partnered with Seika Teikouchi, Joshi wrestling's answer to Barry Horowitz. Bolshoi would have laughed at the list I gave you, and then maybe re-trained Phoenix to be at least competitive in JWP (Size you cannot teach).

Nagayo fought the best of the best: Ripper, Bennett, Madusa, Her old partner, Asuka, Toyota, Yokota. Compare THAT resume with anything that Phoenix did.

 

[Reflection]

Smark, she was striped bass in a school of guppies. Ask yourself this question: Could Cameron have lasted in GAEA? Could the Bellas? Could Naomi? Eve Torres? That is what Phoenix had to wrestle with.

GAEA and WWE are two very different products. You cannot make a direct comparison between the two. And just because Beth made it big in the PG era doesn't mean she couldn't have made it in a more competitive environment (just like John Cena). Could this woman be so successful in WWE? Probably yes, Probably not.

If Cameron was in GAEA, if Nagayo did not throw her ass out of GAEA's training camp, Cameron would have been partnered with Seika Teikouchi, Joshi wrestling's answer to Barry Horowitz.

What agenda do you have against Cameron? She doesn't have anything to do with the topic. She is probably not even in the tournament. And btw, she never wrestled a match against Beth Phoenix, and neither did Naomi.

Bolshoi would have laughed at the list I gave you, and then maybe re-trained Phoenix to be at least competitive in JWP (Size you cannot teach).

A plastic surgeon would have laughed at the names you mentioned, and maybe did experiments on them to make them suitable for WWE. (Good looks you cannot teach).

Nagayo fought the best of the best: Ripper, Bennett, Madusa, Her old partner, Asuka, Toyota, Yokota. Compare THAT resume with anything that Phoenix did.

How about... 3 time WWE Women's champion, 1 time WWE Divas champion, 2 time Slammy award winner for Diva of the year- all in the biggest wrestling company of the world, 2 time OVW women's champion, and 2 time #2 in PWI Top 50 female singles wrestlers. She also became champion in freestyle wrestling twice in 75 kg category. What accomplishments do Chigusa Nagayo have outside of fake wrestling that would complement the praises that you have showered upon her wrestling abilities while simultaneously questioning that of Phoenix?

 

[stingray11214]

GAEA and WWE are two very different products. You cannot make a direct comparison between the two. And just because Beth made it big in the PG era doesn't mean she couldn't have made it in a more competitive environment (just like John Cena). Could this woman be so successful in WWE? Probably yes, Probably not.


What agenda do you have against Cameron? She doesn't have anything to do with the topic. She is probably not even in the tournament. And btw, she never wrestled a match against Beth Phoenix, and neither did Naomi.


A plastic surgeon would have laughed at the names you mentioned, and maybe did experiments on them to make them suitable for WWE. (Good looks you cannot teach).


How about... 3 time WWE Women's champion, 1 time WWE Divas champion, 2 time Slammy award winner for Diva of the year- all in the biggest wrestling company of the world, 2 time OVW women's champion, and 2 time #2 in PWI Top 50 female singles wrestlers. She also became champion in freestyle wrestling twice in 75 kg category. What accomplishments do Chigusa Nagayo have outside of fake wrestling that would complement the praises that you have showered upon her wrestling abilities while simultaneously questioning that of Phoenix?

I mention Cameron because she is a glaring example of why the Divas are a suspect group. She is NOT a wrestler. She is using WWE in the hopes of a record deal. That much is public knowledge.

Yeah, Phoenix won all those titles against a suspect group. She has NEVER done anything of note outside of the VKM bubble. Now, compare that to a 32 year history. You ask for Chigusa's accomplishments? Here you go:

4 times WWWA tag champ (The belt originally founded by THAT Mildred Burke) She did this with Lioness Asuka as the legendary Crush Gals.
1 Time WWWA World Champ
2 times Ajj Japan Women's Junior Champion
2 Times IWA Women's Champ, Defeated Monster Ripper in Calgary for the belt in 1988. Chigayo would be recognized as Stampede's first IWA ChampionShe would also swap the belt with some chick called Madusa. The title was originally started by Stampede Wrestling, you know, the company ran by some guy named Stu Hart
1987 Japan Grand Prix Champion (Defeting Dump Matsumoto)
1986 Japan Grand Prix Runner up
1985 Japan Grand Prix Third Place
1985 Tag League The Best Runner up (Losing to Bull Nakano and Dump Matsumoto)
1986 Tag League The Best Champion with Yumiko Hotta as her pertner
1987 Tag League The Best Champion with her old partner, Lioness Asuka
All Japan Women's Professional Wrestling would induct her into their Hall of Fame in 1998

Oh, BTW, All Japan Women's had a mandatory retirement rule at the time. The age was 26. Nagayo retired in 1989. Nagayo would start GAEA in 1995. Now, what she won in GAEA: All Asia Athlete's Womens Chmpion twice, and All Asia Athlete's Women's Tag Champ with Lioness Asuka.
And, in GAEA. for 10 years, Nagayo spent developing the future of Joshi puroresu. She would also start a working agreement with WCW to revive the Women's Strap. Nagayo would lose to Madusa in its tournament. Madusa would lose to Akira Hokuto at Starrcade. Now, in retirement, Nagayo is a producer and promoter, putting on shows throughout Japan. And, she is still revered amongst Joshi Puroresu and Women's wrestling fans.

So, what do others think of Nagayo? Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame inductee in 1997, and she was honored by the Cauliflower Alley Club at their California Convention the year before. Pretty impressive resume, don't you think?

Oh, before I forget, The Crush Gals (Nagayo and Asuka) did cross into Pop Culture in Japan with a few Top 10 singles. And, that was NOT by design. They were trained athletes first. All Japan Women's officials discovered their voices later. Oh, and The Crush Gals were wrestling in a company called the World Wrestling Federation in 1987, when Women's wrestling was taken SOMeWHAT seriously by VKM. They fought the likes of Donna Christiantello, Judy Martin and Leilani Kai.

Now, let's be real: You are 20 and probably started wrestling during the Invasion angle. I get that. You are also looking at the person that you most want to boink tonight. I get that as well. That is how VKM programs the Divas: not for the most skilled, but who has the best looks. You have probably never seen wrestling tapes like Slant-Eyed Slaughter and Riot from the Rising Sun. Those were wars from All Japan Women's Professional Wrestling. One of those I posted on this very thread. The difference between me and you is that I have been watching wrestling since around 1974. I remember when the IWA (Eddie Einhorn's ill-fated group) tried to destroy Vince Sr. I can tell you stories of matches that I saw as a kid. Sadly, for you, that is all you will have unless you go on YouTube.

Those things said, what will be Beth Phoenix's legacy? What will those who follow wrestling for wrestling and not for Tits and Ass say of her resume? The book of Nagayo the performer is all but done, but as a promoter and trainer, her legacy is only growing. Unless she comes back, the book of Beth Phoenix will be that of a woman who dominated a suspect Divas division, and once she left, did nothing else to add to the legacy. You say she was on the "biggest company in the world". Question: Do you HONESTLY believe that the Divas, because they are the biggest, means the are the best? I do not know of anyone on this forum, or on any other forum, that can say that with a straight face. The problem with your argument is that Phoenix operated inside a well controlled bubble. All of her championships were won in that bubble that involved very few women. Many fans do not rate the Divas division as a real women's group. In fact, I personally hope that when Paige, AJ and Emma see their contracts expire, book themselves over to Japan and let the fitness models, future rappers, and "total divas" have the Division. Oh, and the Slammy's are a VKM, made-for-TV line of Kayfabe BS that people over the age of 14 see right through.

I hope I explained myself. It is probably too late for you, because you had your mind made up already. But, I hope I stated my case.

PS: I forgot about Phoenix Amateur career. However, I still believe in a pro setting, and looking at the ENTIRE body of work, Nagayo is still head and shoulders above Phoenix

 

[Reflection]

I mention Cameron because she is a glaring example of why the Divas are a suspect group. She is NOT a wrestler. She is using WWE in the hopes of a record deal. That much is public knowledge.

Nope, that is public assumption, not knowledge. Vince is not a moron that he will knowingly let someone (much less a diva) use the WWE as a stepping stone to further their own interests.

Yeah, Phoenix won all those titles against a suspect group. She has NEVER done anything of note outside of the VKM bubble. Now, compare that to a 32 year history. You ask for Chigusa's accomplishments? Here you go:

4 times WWWA tag champ (The belt originally founded by THAT Mildred Burke) She did this with Lioness Asuka as the legendary Crush Gals.
1 Time WWWA World Champ
2 times Ajj Japan Women's Junior Champion
2 Times IWA Women's Champ, Defeated Monster Ripper in Calgary for the belt in 1988. Chigayo would be recognized as Stampede's first IWA ChampionShe would also swap the belt with some chick called Madusa. The title was originally started by Stampede Wrestling, you know, the company ran by some guy named Stu Hart
1987 Japan Grand Prix Champion (Defeting Dump Matsumoto)
1986 Japan Grand Prix Runner up
1985 Japan Grand Prix Third Place
1985 Tag League The Best Runner up (Losing to Bull Nakano and Dump Matsumoto)
1986 Tag League The Best Champion with Yumiko Hotta as her pertner
1987 Tag League The Best Champion with her old partner, Lioness Asuka
All Japan Women's Professional Wrestling would induct her into their Hall of Fame in 1998

All for one company- All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling. "Nothing outside of the bubble." Now, since it came down to this, let's compare the two companies- All Japan Women's Pro Wrestling and WWE- which is bigger? WWE. Which is much more popular? WWE. Which one is still alive? WWE. Which one is considered a wrestler's dream job? WWE. So who wins? WWE. And stop hyping 2nd and 3rd places in Pro-Wrestling tournaments as if she was the runner-up at the Olympics or something.

Oh, BTW, All Japan Women's had a mandatory retirement rule at the time. The age was 26. Nagayo retired in 1989. Nagayo would start GAEA in 1995. Now, what she won in GAEA: All Asia Athlete's Womens Chmpion twice, and All Asia Athlete's Women's Tag Champ with Lioness Asuka.

Just like Jeff Jarrett during the early years of TNA?

She would also start a working agreement with WCW to revive the Women's Strap.

Translation: To make money.

Nagayo would lose to Madusa in its tournament. Madusa would lose to Akira Hokuto at Starrcade.

Wow, I'm impressed.

Now, in retirement, Nagayo is a producer and promoter, putting on shows throughout Japan. And, she is still revered amongst Joshi Puroresu and Women's wrestling fans.

Now in retirement, Beth Phoenix is looked upon as the Greatest WWE diva of the last decade, and is a certain future WWE Hall of Famer. Millions and millions of wrestling fans know who Beth Phoenix is, and how good she was.

So, what do others think of Nagayo? Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame inductee in 1997, and she was honored by the Cauliflower Alley Club at their California Convention the year before. Pretty impressive resume, don't you think?

Chigusa retired 10 years ago and got inducted hence. Beth Phoenix will definitely get felicitated too, probably more than Chigusa in due time.

Oh, before I forget, The Crush Gals (Nagayo and Asuka) did cross into Pop Culture in Japan with a few Top 10 singles. And, that was NOT by design. They were trained athletes first. All Japan Women's officials discovered their voices later.

You can't be serious. The question of the poll was "Who will win this matchup?" and you are mentioning singing accomplishments? Did their singing have any positive effect on their wrestling careers?

Oh, and The Crush Gals were wrestling in a company called the World Wrestling Federation in 1987, when Women's wrestling was taken SOMeWHAT seriously by VKM. They fought the likes of Donna Christiantello, Judy Martin and Leilani Kai.

For a forgettable amount of time, where they neither got pushed, nor accomplished anything.

Now, let's be real: You are 20 and probably started wrestling during the Invasion angle. I get that.

After that, actually.

You are also looking at the person that you most want to boink tonight. I get that as well.

Maybe that's the case with you. Do you have a crush on Chigusa? Do you want to go to bed with her? Do you have a fetish for scary-looking women?

That is how VKM programs the Divas: not for the most skilled, but who has the best looks.

Anyone with functioning eyes and brain can observe Beth Phoenix's skill.

You have probably never seen wrestling tapes like Slant-Eyed Slaughter and Riot from the Rising Sun. Those were wars from All Japan Women's Professional Wrestling.

Ah, that company again.

One of those I posted on this very thread. The difference between me and you is that I have been watching wrestling since around 1974.

Yet you mention singing achievements in a wrestling discussion.

I remember when the IWA (Eddie Einhorn's ill-fated group) tried to destroy Vince Sr. I can tell you stories of matches that I saw as a kid. Sadly, for you, that is all you will have unless you go on YouTube.

I'm not much of a storyteller, but I can watch much more entertaining wrestling than that, for as low as... $9.99

Those things said, what will be Beth Phoenix's legacy? What will those who follow wrestling for wrestling and not for Tits and Ass say of her resume?

That she has won championships in amateur wrestling as well, therefore she must be really good.

Question: Do you HONESTLY believe that the Divas, because they are the biggest, means the are the best? I do not know of anyone on this forum, or on any other forum, that can say that with a straight face... All of her championships were won in that bubble that involved very few women.

My point was that, given Beth Phoenix's skills, she would have made it big in Chigusa's era as well. She has both good looks and accomplishments in real wrestling- two points over Chigusa that might have prompted promoters of that era to push her ahead of Chigusa.

Many fans do not rate the Divas division as a real women's group.

That's entirely subjective. All of these, after all, are a part of pro wrestling.

In fact, I personally hope that when Paige, AJ and Emma see their contracts expire, book themselves over to Japan and let the fitness models, future rappers, and "total divas" have the Division.

No, they are smart women. After all the hard work they've done to get there, they wouldn't leave the big league, big paycheck and big fame for indy leagues where they probably give each other concussions every week trying to draw a dime. KENTA was a star in Japan, yet he came to the the WWE and started from the bottom. Not without reasons.

Oh, and the Slammy's are a VKM, made-for-TV line of Kayfabe BS that people over the age of 14 see right through.

So are all championship titles.

I hope I explained myself. It is probably too late for you, because you had your mind made up already. But, I hope I stated my case.

Thanks for the laughs. Your case might have not been convincing, but it surely was entertaining.

PS: I forgot about Phoenix Amateur career.

Yeah, of course. Since that's probably one of those things your lady doesn't have, do you hate it as much as you hate good looks?

However, I still believe in a pro setting, and looking at the ENTIRE body of work, Nagayo is still head and shoulders above Phoenix

I disagree. Reasons already mentioned.