Mallrats/Kevin Smith

[Shotaro]

I can remember seeing Mallrats for the first time when I was 18 or something and I loved it. It was on TV last night and almost ten years later, it REALLY hasn't held up well. I could only manage twenty minutes before having to change the channel. Was I wrong nine years ago or am I just getting old?

Is it worth going back and re-watching the only other Askewniverse movies I liked (Clerks and Dogma) or will they just flat out suck now too?

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Haha you caught it on Dave too then?

I hadn't seen it for ages and didn't really pay attention when I watched it the first time, so I quite enjoyed it last night. Seeing a young Ben Affleck acting like a douche was quite a thrill as well.

I think if you went back and watched Clerks, you may be quite disappointed. I spoke about it in the other Kevin Smith thread, but the dialogue and delivery is at times, embarassing. I noticed a few instances where it was similar in Mallrats, as in characters would be talking quickly and seemingly in a rush to get their lines out. Dogma doesn't have the same problem, though the female lead is pretty dam awful throughout and I find it hard to give a shit about her.

What I find is that Kevin Smith can have some good/great ideas, but the execution often lets him down. Shit, watch his stand-up DVDs and you know this guy can tell a story that can keep people engaged but it doesn't seem to translate well to his films.

 

[justinsayne]

Nobody involved with the making of Clerks had any film making experience at all when they made that film. Also the film was shot over the course of like 1 night, they really didn't have the luxury of multiple takes for most scenes. The thing about Clerks that makes it so entertaining was the writing & dialogue, & jokes.

Mallrats was the first film they made with a studio backing them, & they really still didn't have a very good idea of what the hell they were doing, they were all still fairly new the film making the process, and I think Mallrats was more a learning experience than anything for Smith, Mosier, & company. It really wasn't till Dogma when Kevin was finally able to hit his groove, & got the hang of this directing thing, you'll notice of you watch Kevin whole library of work that after Mallrats everything jumps in in terms of quality & production.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Nobody involved with the making of Clerks had any film making experience at all when they made that film. Also the film was shot over the course of like 1 night, they really didn't have the luxury of multiple takes for most scenes. The thing about Clerks that makes it so entertaining was the writing & dialogue, & jokes.

Mallrats was the first film they made with a studio backing them, & they really still didn't have a very good idea of what the hell they were doing, they were all still fairly new the film making the process, and I think Mallrats was more a learning experience than anything for Smith, Mosier, & company. It really wasn't till Dogma when Kevin was finally able to hit his groove, & got the hang of this directing thing, you'll notice of you watch Kevin whole library of work that after Mallrats everything jumps in in terms of quality & production.

Both Kevin Smith and Scott Mosier attended the Toronto School of Film, so they did have some experience. Granted, it wouldn't be feature-film experience, but even when making short-films they would have guidance as to how to pace dialogue and direct their crew. It was indeed filmed over a short space of time, but it was 21 days rather than one night.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109445/trivia?tab=tr&item=tr0763697

For a first-time feature it captured Smith a lot of attention but watching it back now it's very hard to ignore how it has dated and the poorness in quality in some regards. Like you say, the quality of his later work does increase, but that would mean that his previous work is of a lower quality which is what we were saying.

Compare Smith's career to another director who shot his debut feature on a limited budget and sacrificed a lot of things personally to get his film made, Robert Rodriguez, and the gulf in skill going forward is pretty wide. See also Richard Linklater, whose own film Slackers inspired Smith to make Clerks. Linklater was self-taught as a writer and director and his work has spanned several genres while Smith hasn't really developed as much.

It's not that I dislike Kevin Smith, I just think some of his work has been quite over-rated when compared to other directors who started around the same time under similar circumstances.

 

[Shotaro]

Nobody involved with the making of Clerks had any film making experience at all when they made that film. Also the film was shot over the course of like 1 night, they really didn't have the luxury of multiple takes for most scenes. The thing about Clerks that makes it so entertaining was the writing & dialogue, & jokes.

Mallrats was the first film they made with a studio backing them, & they really still didn't have a very good idea of what the hell they were doing, they were all still fairly new the film making the process, and I think Mallrats was more a learning experience than anything for Smith, Mosier, & company. It really wasn't till Dogma when Kevin was finally able to hit his groove, & got the hang of this directing thing, you'll notice of you watch Kevin whole library of work that after Mallrats everything jumps in in terms of quality & production.

I agree that with Clerks and to an extent Mallrats, it can be attributed to a learning experience. The thing is, it wasn't the direction (though it was awful) that caused me to change channel. It was the script. Both of the male leads were really poorly written. Their choice of language was awful and it lead to all of the characters sounding like a thesaurus. I get that sometimes that was the joke, but it just didn't work. Neither Jason Lee nor the other guy's characters talked like people and it just sounded like they were trying too hard.

It's not that I dislike Kevin Smith, I just think some of his work has been quite over-rated when compared to other directors who started around the same time under similar circumstances.

As time goes on that has become my opinion on Mr. Smith. He's a talented director, but his cult following has gotten the better of him and he seems to think he is some kind of auteur (Incidentally for me a similar thing has happenned to Quentin Tarantino.) As you said, guys like Robert Rodruiquez have kept themselves grounded and still make good films. It's a shame that Kevin Smith seemingly hasn't.

 

[jmt225]

Mallrats has always been my least favorite Kevin Smith film. I've tried my hardest to force myself to like it, but overall it's just a bad movie. With the exception of some Jason Mewes bits (who I always find intriguing to watch no matter what), everything in the movie falls flat for me.

That said, I highly suggest anyone who has never heard the commentary track for it to try and find a copy as soon as possible. It's EASILY the best and funniest commentary track in the history of mankind. That alone makes the film all the well worth it.

 

[justinsayne]

Smith wrote, directed & edited Clerks & Mallrats. So when I say both movies were essentially learning experience, I mean that for him in all categories. You also have to take in consideration that the dialogue for Mallrats was written 17+ yrs. ago.

Also for the record Kevin Smith himself has routinely stated that he feels Mallrats, Jersey Girl, & Cop Out were pretty shitty films, & has said that watching Clerks is almost painful for him now, knowing what he knows now about film-making. I'd say the man is fairly grounded when he looks back at what he's has done in his career.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Mallrats didn't hold up well for me at all. I first saw it in my early teens and it was great. I saw it again high when I was about 19 and it was ok, then when I watched it the most recent time it just wasn't funny. I think the whole premise is sort of a joke but in my younger and angstier years the dialogue was funny and relevant. Now I look at it and I think to myself, come on these guys need to grow up.

As far as Smith goes, I think Clerks 2 was the start of his downfall. It was still a funny movie for me because it still had some of the nerdy discussions like the first one and I laugh at dick and fart jokes still. Zach and Miri, I do like but after that he hasn't put out anything of note. Cop Out was bad and Red State was the biggest let down for me in so long. I feel like his celebrity has gone to his head and he spends more time on Twitter ranting and bitching then he does putting decent work into his movies.

I still like him and still watch his movies, they are good, but I prefer his older stuff. Clerks is still good, I like Chasing Amy, Dogma is good.

 

[Shotaro]

To call Red State a let down is akin to calling Rick Santorum a c**t. It gets the point across but just doesn't seem strong enough. That film is a fucking travesty.

I did however not dislike Cop Out. Then again I'm a huge fan of 30 Rock so I may just have been blinded by Tracy Jordan's particular brand of insanity. Also the car scene was hilarious.

With regard to the dialogue. It wasn't the age of it. It was the choice of words that struck me as unusual. Also the acting was straight up awful also. Combines with a sub-par script it ends up making Mallrats a clearly awful film (unless you're high - which seems to be the default state for Kevin Smith stuff anyway)

 

[JGlass]

That said, I highly suggest anyone who has never heard the commentary track for it to try and find a copy as soon as possible. It's EASILY the best and funniest commentary track in the history of mankind. That alone makes the film all the well worth it.

I love Kevin Smith and Mallrats was his first film I ever saw (which apparently is a common theme with Kevin Smith fans), and I absolutely adored it. It's not as funny as my first viewing, but it still rocks. And I've seen the DVD commentary, and it's fucking HILARIOUS. Ben Affleck even pops in, and it was recorded after he had become famous, so they keep on making jokes about how "if they only knew." It's phenomenal.

To call Red State a let down is akin to calling Rick Santorum a c**t. It gets the point across but just doesn't seem strong enough. That film is a fucking travesty.

I don't understand how anyone could call Red State a travesty. Not get it, sure. Not your style? I understand that too. But call it a travesty? No, fuck you and your ugly face. Everything about Red State is fantastic. It has highly intelligent dialogue (mixed with some classic Kevin Smith flair), intense action sequences, and the whole thing is just chock full of symbolism, storytelling, technique, and shit film nerds like me love.

With regard to the dialogue. It wasn't the age of it. It was the choice of words that struck me as unusual. Also the acting was straight up awful also. Combines with a sub-par script it ends up making Mallrats a clearly awful film (unless you're high - which seems to be the default state for Kevin Smith stuff anyway)

Kevin Smith is famous for writing great, witty, quick dialogue.

 

[Shotaro]

I love Kevin Smith and Mallrats was his first film I ever saw (which apparently is a common theme with Kevin Smith fans), and I absolutely adored it. It's not as funny as my first viewing, but it still rocks. And I've seen the DVD commentary, and it's fucking HILARIOUS. Ben Affleck even pops in, and it was recorded after he had become famous, so they keep on making jokes about how "if they only knew." It's phenomenal.



I don't understand how anyone could call Red State a travesty. Not get it, sure. Not your style? I understand that too. But call it a travesty? No, fuck you and your ugly face. Everything about Red State is fantastic. It has highly intelligent dialogue (mixed with some classic Kevin Smith flair), intense action sequences, and the whole thing is just chock full of symbolism, storytelling, technique, and shit film nerds like me love.



Kevin Smith is famous for writing great, witty, quick dialogue.

Both your and Justin's defence of Red State have convinced me to give it a second viewing. Who knows maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention or some shit. I agree that the writing is one of Smith's defining traits, Dogma is a great example of a fantastic script combined with an (almost) perfect cast and is one of my favourite movies. It just didn't seem to work in Mallrats when I saw it last night. It didn't work at all.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Red State is a decent watch. I think some of you are greatly over-exaggerating though. There were some long, drawn out parts that could have had some time edited out, some of the dialogue was just out of place. I own it, I've watched it multiple times, and it is a welcome addition to my collection, but it's not some fantastic piece of cinema.

Mallrats, however, sucks hot ass. Jeremy London didn't fit in at all and Claire Forlani sucked out loud. Jason Lee was awesome, Jay and Silent Bob, Ben Affleck, and even Ethan Suplee were good. The main 2 characters were just awful choices. It brought the whole film down.

The only thing that Kevin Smith does that truly irritates me is his obsession of putting whatever chick he's banging into movies when they clearly don't belong. Joey Lauren Adams sucked(not in Chasing Amy, but out loud in Mallrats.) His wife now sucks. Quit putting them in important roles, they'll still blow you if you give them a small role.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Red State was a let down for me, I've stated that. I will say that it was acted very well, especially John Goodman and the guy who played the preacher. Goodman's speech at the end of the movie is brilliant though

 

[jmt225]

The only thing that Kevin Smith does that truly irritates me is his obsession of putting whatever chick he's banging into movies when they clearly don't belong. Joey Lauren Adams sucked(not in Chasing Amy, but out loud in Mallrats.) His wife now sucks. Quit putting them in important roles, they'll still blow you if you give them a small role.

I don't think that's a fair criticism.

Joey Lauren Adams had a relatively small part in Mallrats, and I don't think Smith started dating her until that film started shooting, anyway. And like you said, she was brilliant in Chasing Amy, so there's no reason to disapprove of that casting.

His current wife has had minor roles in every film he has put her in except Clerks 2, and I thought she did a good job in that movie.

One of the things I respect most about Kevin is his loyalty to his family and friends. His wife isn't anywhere near close to being the only person that receives special treatment from him; he gives all his friends similar opportunities in his movies. With Kevin it's about working with one big happy family who he enjoys being around, and his wife is apart of that. To me it's just no big deal as long as the movies live up to his vision.

 

[Davi323]

Red State was a bit of a letdown for me, until the last minute of the film, when John Goodman is explaining what happened, redeemed the entire thing for me. Not going to spoil anything for those that haven't seen it, but the ending made me laugh my ass off in a good way. After I saw it, I thought "Well played, Kev. Well played."

As for Mallrats...yes, it's a poor movie, but you know what? I always liked it. It's silly, it's pointless, but I enjoyed it.

 

[CH David]

I love Mallrats. If that speaks to the quality of entertainment it takes to make me laugh, so be it. Is it one of his lesser works? Sure. Is it entertaining? It certainly is to me. Admittedly my first viewing of it was after I watched Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back about 11 years ago, but still. Jay and Silent Bob steal the spotlight with their scenes "FLY FATASS! FLY!", but Jason Lee also did an excellent job. I love the game show, as dumb as the whole thing is.

As far as Kevin Smith goes, more often than not his films are entertaining, which should be the point to movies. Entertainment.

 

[Death Before Disco]

I used to love Kevin Smith's movies when I was 14-15, but as I got older, they started to become really annoying, mostly due to the dialogue. I haven't seen all of his movies, including Red State, but in a lot of them, the dialogue is really stilted and not believable at all. I understand that you want movie dialogue to crackle with with wit and tension in a comedy, but Smith goes overboard in a lot of his films and a seemingly mundane conversation often turns into an intellectual ******* session. The stilted dialogue appealed to me more when I was younger, but now it just seems disingenuous and pretentious.