Main event talents in midcard title scene

[CyberPunk]

So Mania Card has taken a definitive shape. Apart from the apparent co-main events, we also have the midcard titles being defended and in seemingly important matches involving main event talents in John Cena and (almost confirmed) Daniel Bryan. While it seems a great idea as it offers the chance to midcard titles to shine at the big event, how do you see it going forward?

There are two sides to the argument. The positive side, as stated, it can help elevate the midcard championship to prominence. I am not saying competing for these titles in main events of PPV, but at least when you have Cena or Bryan compete and possibly win these titles, there's more of a possibility that these titles will get more focus from creative and the feud for these titles might be more story driven. After all, Your Cenas and Bryans are established top stars and are important part of the roster. That will also help establish other midcard talents fighting for the belt.

On the other hand, involving the main event star could go the other way round. If proper storylines are not presented, people like Cena or Bryan or any other main event star would not be able to do anything with the title. Moreover, their is a possibility of some of these stars being stuck in the midcard without any direction (stars like Bryan more than Cena). Being stuck in the midcard is not a bad thing per se till the time something meaningful and entertaining happens.

So what do you think? What's the path forward for the midcard titles? Should main event talents get more involved with the US and IC championships? Do main eventers elevate the midcard titles or do these titles drag the talent down?

 

[Papa Pillman]

I am not saying competing for these titles in main events of PPV

But why not?

If we have a parttimer as World champion who isn't going to show up for every PPV, as long as the secondary title is held and being defending by a Bryan or a Cena against another main event caliber opponent, why couldn't those title defenses easily and logically main event the PPV instead?

Do main eventers elevate the midcard titles or do these titles drag the talent down?

I could see the argument that the secondary title could make the guy holding it feel like more of a midcarder, but if we're specifically talking a Bryan, or Cena, or say a guy like Orton for example, then I don't think that is a realistic fear. Those guys are over and established enough that they do more to elevate the title than the title does to "drag them down".

 

[CyberPunk]

But why not?

If we have a parttimer as World champion who isn't going to show up for every PPV, as long as the secondary title is held and being defending by a Bryan or a Cena against another main event caliber opponent, why couldn't those title defenses easily and logically main event the PPV instead?

Of course it's a possibility. And there's nothing wrong with IC or US title main eventing a PPV here or there. I am talking about the overall title picture. They are midcard titles and eventually that's where they'll be featured more often than not, i.e. in the midcard.

As for the booking, IC title could very well become the focus of Smackdown. Looking at the recent trend, the move to Thursdays has really helped Smackdown become more story driven, especially for mid and upper midcard of the roster. In turn, it has made Smackdown more important. I can see IC championship regularly being the focus of the SD main event if they book this right.

 

[Navi]

I have no problem with wrestler's like Cena or Bryan getting involved in the midcard title fueds, but I do have an issue with them winning them. I'll explain.

For a long time now there is a very definite difference between what the WWE terms as main event and midcard. Cena and Orton have to the two wrestlers that the belt has shifted between forever it seems. Other's like Ziggler, Sheamus, Miz and Swagger got their reigns but they weren't great and they haven't had the belt since. It was more like a let's try him with the title, yea he sucks, okay back to the midcard with him. Next.

There is no difference between the upper midcard and the lower midcard to tell you the truth. The midcard is just that, wrestler's who are good enough to win the IC and US titles but not deemed a big enough draw to hold the main title. In the last year we've seen Reigns, Rollins and I thought Ambrose and Wyatt being elevated but only Reigns has made it out of the group. It would appear. Ambrose is going for the IC title, a midcard title, and Wyatt well God only knows what he's doing. Rollins is feuding with Jon Stewart of all people.

The issue I have is throwing Cena and Bryan into the midcard mix is they will be expected to win. And why, these aren't midcard talents they are main event wrestlers. They don't need to hold the midcard titles, Ambrose and Rusev with the right feuds can elevate them. Just because Cena and Bryan can't have the WWE title, do you have to have them take the lower ones.

Too have three titles and have them all held by main event wrestlers wouldn't give me encouragement if I'm a Dean Ambrose or Dolph Ziggler.

 

[Papa Pillman]

For a long time now there is a very definite difference between what the WWE terms as main event and midcard. Cena and Orton have to the two wrestlers that the belt has shifted between forever it seems. Other's like Ziggler, Sheamus, Miz and Swagger got their reigns but they weren't great and they haven't had the belt since.

What you're not accounting for though is that guys like Ziggler and Swagger held the World Heavyweight Championship, not the WWE Championship. Before the Unification, the Big Gold Belt was essentially the top secondary title. Putting main eventers in the IC/US title scene can allow one or both of those belts to occupy the space that the secondary World title was previously occupying. And this way if an Ambrose or a Ziggler wins the belt after its been held by a guy like Cena or Bryan they are afforded a bit more credibility as a champion.

In the last year we've seen Reigns, Rollins and I thought Ambrose and Wyatt being elevated but only Reigns has made it out of the group.

To be fair, Rollins is Mr. Money in the Bank, he is being touted as "the future", commentary is constantly reminding us of his nearly "guaranteed" upcoming World title reign, he's been mostly treated for months as the top true heel on the roster, and he was just in the World title match at the third biggest show of the year. I think its fair to say that Rollins has been elevated to, and is being treated as, a guy who has reached main event status.

 

[ramblinroy682]

If you look at the history of the title, many main event level talents have held the belt over the years. Some prior to becoming the main eventers they are known as today, and some during their hayday. Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, etc. I recall in some WWE video someone stating that the IC Title was originally given to the guy on the roster who was considered the best "wrestler" on the roster. The guy that could really go in the ring and put on a quality match at the end of the night on a run of the mill house show. The show where the Heavyweight Title wouldn't change hands. When you look at it's history up until around 95-96, that would hold true. Guys like Razor Ramon, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Mr. Perfect, Tito Santana, Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, and Greg Valentine held the belt. These guys were all second fiddle to Hulk Hogan, but would qualify as guys I would consider as main event players.

After that, the title seemed to become a stepping stone for future stars who would move on and leave the title behind or for true midcard talents who never made the next step. Now, it seems to have dropped in stature to talents who are just entering mid-card status as opposed to those who have cemented their place in the mid-card and are ready to move up. It helped solidify guys like Edge, RVD, Jeff Hardy, Jericho, and Angle. Now, it's on guys who don't have that high ceiling.

I think the problem is you don't have the talent level top to bottom to make it worth while. Compare the list: Ziggler, Ambrose, Barrett, Sheamus, R-Truth, Miz, Sandow...Any on that list make you think Savage, Hart, Jericho, Michaels, Angle, Edge,....Nope. And I like all those guys...

You want to make it have the prestige it did with Randy Savage (the best in ring wrestler on the roster)...Put it on Daniel Bryan. Let him hold the title. Let him defend it. Make his stories center around being the best wrestler in the ring and you can't take that title away from him. Let him put on great matches. He doesn't even need that complicated of a story. Who can take me down? Hell, let him make a lot of his feuds get the send off with a submission match. If Bryan holds the belt for a year or a year and a half, he could make some guys seem big time even in their defeat. Imagine, Bryan vs. Ziggler, Bryan vs. Neville, Bryan vs. Finn Balor, Bryan vs. Rusev, Bryan vs. Itami, Bryan vs. Rollins. Each of those guys can learn from Bryan, put on quality matches, and be more entertaining than the Smackdown 3 on 3 match that seems to come on every thursday. If you made IC Champ (Bryan in this case) the face of Smackdown, like the old house show days, I think you could raise the prestige of the title, create some great tv feuds, give the old school fan like me something to tune in to, and ultimately return the IC Title to the true stepping stone title it once was.

So, I'm all for putting a proven commodity in a midcard title spot right now.

 

[Radical]

Mid-card singles titles, the IC and the US title have an interesting status now. With the merge of the World title with the WWE title, the 2nd tier title is now (once again) the IC title. The IC title has a lot of prestige in terms of Hall of Fame or memorable names so I have no problem with main eventers going down to challenge for that title. People say the IC title is really the title for the best wrestler and should be for that up and coming guy but that's just not how it is going to happen all the time. So why not have a guy like Randy Orton or Daniel Bryan challenge for the title even after having main event WWE title matches and victories?

I think, in a way, WWE shoots themselves in the foot by not redesigning and slightly renaming the titles they have because WWE doesn't want to be restricted to weight classes anymore (and for a while now) but they still have words like "Heavyweight" in their titles. The main title is the WWE World HEAVYWEIGHT Title and even though commentators only say Intercontinental Championship the BELT itself says Intercontinental Heavyweight Champion while the US title just says United States Champion (with a WWE logo). If they would just refer to the main title as only the WWE title or the WWE World Title then redesign the IC belt to not have Heavyweight then they would be better off. They would have less people complain about former winners like Rey Mysterio and Daniel Bryan challenging and winning the title. Not saying they would have no complaints but probably LESS because the title doesn't have "Heavyweight" in it.

But regardless of what the titles say, the WWE is about creating entertaining and interesting matches. So why not use a wrestler who draws interest no matter what feud or title he is going for? If it makes sense and can be interesting, go for it!

Who ever thought John Cena would go back to challenging for the US title? But it MAKES SENSE right now for him to do so and that's why they are doing it. And it DOES bring up the prestige in the titles and the importance of them.

It maybe does push back some talent from mid card title shots but, most of the time, if it pushes back someone it means the haven't really got over enough to be worth keeping in the picture.

Look at the IC title picture going into WrestleMania. Many of us thought it maybe was just going to be BNB vs Ambrose but now it will be a multi-man ladder match with guys like Daniel Bryan, Ziggler, R-Truth and probably another because those guys all bring more interest to the match. That's not to say BNB and Ambrose couldn't put on a great match on their own but you could say that because of the hard work of guys like Daniel Bryan and Ziggler and hey, give R-Truth credit for being a solid worker for all these years, they made their case that they are worth putting in the match and not getting forgot for WrestleMania.

 

[FarFromFine]

But why not?

If we have a parttimer as World champion who isn't going to show up for every PPV, as long as the secondary title is held and being defending by a Bryan or a Cena against another main event caliber opponent, why couldn't those title defenses easily and logically main event the PPV instead?



I could see the argument that the secondary title could make the guy holding it feel like more of a midcarder, but if we're specifically talking a Bryan, or Cena, or say a guy like Orton for example, then I don't think that is a realistic fear. Those guys are over and established enough that they do more to elevate the title than the title does to "drag them down".

I agree. I feel like the "main event" should be whatever storyline is the hottest at that moment. I don't feel that if the champ or #1 contender is having a throwaway match on Raw that it has to be in the last segment. If the IC title is being defended on Raw and it's a hot storyline that should go on last to show that an IC title match is more important that a 6 man tag even if it involves a few of the "top guys".

By putting an IC or US title match on in the middle of Raw and having Reigns/Bryan vs Big Show/Kane (vomit) in the main event WWE is telling us that Reigns, Bryan, Big Show, and Kane are more important than the IC title. It's like when the IC title holder goes up against "main eventer" in a non-title match and loses. That's showing us that the IC champ and everyone he is feuding with are still beneath all of the top tier guys. Moves like this devalue the titles more than anything else.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The notion of main event level talent, wrestlers who're long since established as major players and are very over with fans has been the primary reason why some have wanted to see such talent go after a mid-card championship. Over the years, every now & again, a thread is started up asking whether or not John Cena or Randy Orton would be well served in being used to elevate mid-card championships and while the notion is an interesting one, it's an idea that I never genuinely thought had much of a chance of happening, yet here we are.

Dean Ambrose said something during an interview to the effect of the wrestler making the championship and not the other way around. Generally speaking, that's probably true. Using a mid-card championship to elevate someone higher up the card to the main event might be the ideal way to use such a title but it usually doesn't work out that way. In the case of the Intercontinental Championship, the names that you always see brandished about in discussions regarding the prestige of the title are Macho Man Randy Savage, The Ultimate Warrior, Mr. Perfect, Bret The Hitman Hart and a few others. Arguably, the last great Intercontinental Championship run that helped establish a young guy on his way to the main event began December 14, 2003 when the title was won by a young, up & coming stud by the name of Randy Orton. Prior to that. That run lasted 210 days and was only the third Intercontinental Championship reign to last 150 days in 20 years, with the other two being Razor Ramon's 1st run of 198 days beginning on September 27, 1993 and The Rock's 2nd run of 265 days beginning December 8, 1997. Hell, Orton's run marked only the 7th time in the same 20 year span that the champ held the title for 100 days or longer.

Beginning in the early to mid 90s, the IC & US titles both began changing hands regularly. Gone were the days of a title reign lasting 100, 150, 200 days or more and they haven't really returned. At the same time though, having a long run doesn't necessarily mean it's a great one; Dean Ambrose held the United States Championship for almost a year and defended it a total of maybe 3 or 4 times on TV and ppvs combined. The mid-card titles have essentially become something that the wrestlers carry around for a while without a whole helluva lot of depth attached to the title reigns. If John Cena was to win the United States Championship and if Daniel Bryan winds up in the WrestleMania ladder match for the IC title & wins it, one would naturally think that it'd be a turning point for both titles. Cena's been the face of WWE for a decade, nobody in WWE has probably gotten stronger, more consistent overall booking than John Cena since the days of Hulk Hogan. He's not going to be booked to look like a chump. As for Daniel Bryan and the Intercontinental Championship, while I don't have the same level of certainty that Bryan would be booked to be a strong champion, it's logical to think that he probably would be. He's the most over babyface WWE has seen in years, fans are highly interested in whatever he's involved in and he's always made the most of every opportunity he's had in WWE. If there's anybody who can help restore interest in the Intercontinental Championship with the proper booking, it's Daniel Bryan.

 

[FightOwensFight]

JH summed it up pretty perfectly.

To add my two cents. It just a matter of how you look at it. If you look at it like ME-level guys vying for and possibly holding the IC or US Belt would then elevate the status of that belt then it is a good idea. I am in this camp. On the other side are the people that think the IC and US belts are "beneath" the ME-level guys and there is no point to them lowering themselves as they are beyond that. I just don't think that is the case.

You only have so many guys that can logically be in contention for the WHC. 3 or 4 tops, in my opinion. Even that leaves 1 or 2 with nothing to do when the time to fight for the belt comes unless you have repeated 3/4-way matches.

Cycle some of the guys that would be on the outside looking in to the IC and US belts and now you have space for 8 or so guys to be fighting for those, which looks to be leading to a potentially good ladder match at WM for the IC belt with Barrett, Ambrose, and probably Ziggler, Bryan, and Sheamus (and Truth for some reason...).

Also, it takes care of the oft-complained about issue of "The same 2 or 3 guys always going for the (insert belt here)".

 

[Hoke Hogan]

Having main event talents competing for the mid-card titles makes sense - especially right now because Brock has elevated the WWE championship to a such a high, almost untouchable level. I know that a lot of people aren't a fan of the "part-time champion" thing but it really has made that belt more special because not everyone can get a shot at it - and that's the way that it should be. I like that the champion can sort of "stand above the fray" of the rest of the guys - the World Champion coming through a territory used to be a special attraction and that's the feeling that Brock's reign has brought back to the title.

So, with title shots being more rare... it's natural for the next tier of guys to go after the "mid-card" titles and make them more than that - like they used to be.

 

[Navi]

Having main event talents competing for the mid-card titles makes sense - especially right now because Brock has elevated the WWE championship to a such a high, almost untouchable level. I know that a lot of people aren't a fan of the "part-time champion" thing but it really has made that belt more special because not everyone can get a shot at it - and that's the way that it should be. I like that the champion can sort of "stand above the fray" of the rest of the guys - the World Champion coming through a territory used to be a special attraction and that's the feeling that Brock's reign has brought back to the title.

So, with title shots being more rare... it's natural for the next tier of guys to go after the "mid-card" titles and make them more than that - like they used to be.

Wait.....what.......Jesus Christ Lesnar has elevated the title? What you say might be true 40 years ago but not today, it's not the same thing at all. Even if the champ wasn't in town to have a fight, he was off somewhere else defending his title, not sitting on a ranch in the midwest doing nothing.

They were not part time champions because they traveled and defended their title a lot more than Lesnar ever has. This little experiment that Vince created has been a disaster really. Lesnar has only defended the title twice since he won it at Summerslam and the third defense will be against an untested wrestler at Mania in the main event.

That's the reason Cena and Bryan are in the hunt for titles they shouldn't really be in the hunt for. Very disappointed in the WWE the way they've booked all these titles in the last 6 months.