Lyoto Machida Vs. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua

[Marquis]

So Shogun is scheduled to take on Lyoto, the bout is expected to take place at UFC 104. I'm honestly very excited for this fight. As i have said a couple of times Shogun is one of my all time favorite fighters, probably third on my list of favorite fighters. So I'm thrilled to see him get a shot at the title. What I'm not thrilled about is who hes facing for the title, Lyoto. As much as it pains me to say this as a huge Shogun fan, i don't see him winning this fight. Shogun has looked bad in his last three fights in the UFC sadly. In his debut he lost to Forrest via submission, then went on to gas out on a 45 year old Coleman who he barely finished, and while he did knockout Liddell in his third fight, who can't honestly these days? This leads me to believe its way too early for Shogun to have this fight. I'm not even sure how he would go about winning this fight. Shogun has never been a outstanding technical striker. His strength was always his Thai clinch, and ground game which is basically gone since the UFC does not allow stomps to the head or soccer kicks, though he is a quite skilled BJJ artist holding a black belt. I can't picture anyone being able to get close enough to Machida to lock him up in a Thai clinch, so i doubt that's gonna happen. I just basically see Lyoto keeping him at distance with good footwork, kicks, and straight punches. Eventually going in for the kill, or just scrapping out for the decision.

Despite all this, as a long time Shogun fan, i will still be cheering for him to win this one. Everyone has a punchers chance to win a fight, who better then Shogun to have that punching chance?

 

[Uncle Sam]

Keep in mind that I'm still new to this stuff.

Yeah, I don't see Shogun winning at all. On paper, Lyoto is ten times the fighter that Shogun is at this point. Off paper, I think you have a similar situation going on. If a Forrest Griffin whose self-belief extends to "I'm just a dog" can take down Shogun, I'm confident that a man that is yet to lose a round will.

But yeah, there's always that chance. Always, always.

 

[Dave]

Couldn't agree more actually which is very annoying. I like Rua and I think that he will do quite well in the UFC. Hoever, I think that it is too early for him to be in this fight. Machido is a world class fighter and Rua, as you say, has looked quite bad in recent fights. Even in the liddell he didn't look overly impressive. I hope that it is a good fight but I can't see Rua getting through it with a win to be quite honest. The only way I can think of is constantly getting Machida in the Thai, hammering him on the inside and try to ware him out. It will be lengthy proccess and I don't think it will be a good fight if this does happen but for me, I don't really see how Rua will get past this one. Machida to win this one and probably quite confortably.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I can sum up Rua's involvement in this fight into just one word.

Default.

Let's face it, mainstream fans wanted Rashaad Evans to hold on to the LHW Title at UFC 98, because it would have set the stage for Evans vs Quinton Jackson for the title. Lyoto Machida was the infinitely talented monkey wrench in that plan.

Since Machida beat Evans, the next logical #1 contender was Quinton "Rampage" Jackson, since it was supposed to be Rampage, fresh off his win over Keith Jardine, to get Evans in the first place. Jackson was handed the title shot with Machida, but delined it, stating he'd prefer to fight Evans, a fight everybody wants to see. Dana White, in a stroke of genius, made the two men opposing coaches for TUF 10. That, of course, left a hole in the LHW Title picture in the near future, and with Forrest Griffin fighting Anderson Silva, the default choice was Rua.

Now don't get me wrong - Rua is a good fighter and could certainly pull off the upset. But Rua isn't a clear-cut #1 contender, and that may hurt the fight. I'll watch it, but I'll watch with the thought in the back of my head that Shogun is only here because the two top contenders are on a better drawing project which will make them both a lot more money.

 

[jmt225]

IC summed it up best, the guy is nothing more then a default.

I mean, what has he done to deserve a title shot? He lost against Forrest, took a year and a half off, and came back and defeated two past their prime, over the hill guys who weren't anywhere close to being in the Top 10 in the LHW Division at the time of the fight, and still aren’t now. And let's face it, Shogun looked like absolute trash in his fight against Mark Coleman.

So, yeah... the guy's just getting a shot only because there's no one else. But you know what? This could come back and bite Dana White in the ass. If Shogun trains his ass off and is 100% mentally and physically, he very well could pull off the upset. Shogun was amazing in PRIDE. Unbelievably amazing. And if the Shogun that we got to know and love in PRIDE shows up at UFC 104, then the Lyoto Machida Era could very well end as quickly as it started Which, honestly, wouldn't be that bad of a thing because if it does happen and Rampage defeats Rashad Evans, then we'll FINALLY get Rampage vs. Shogun 2.

However, I don't see Lyoto Machida losing. I do expect Shogun to show up in great shape and give us a hell of a fight, but I don't think he'll win. He'll do better than most if he shows up ready, but I don't think he has what it takes to dethrone a champion like Lyoto Machida.

 

[Minor League Brian]

I think this would be a snores fest, really and truly I do. The ONLY thing that made his Evans fight entertaining is that Evans was cocky, and got cockier as time went on, and continued to make the first move. Lyoto fights are like a chess match, which you can't fault him on as he's getting wins, but its far from entertaining.

If I had my choice, I'd have used Liddel's last fight on Lyoto, but hear me out first. Chuck still wants to fight, and still has a fight left on his contract. The man is STILL a name in this sport, it doesn't matter how many times he gets knocked out (though, I think that status is dwindling as well), he is STILL a name. If he went up against Lyoto, you can only win from that match. Either you have Lyoto destroy him, and he's beaten the Iceman, or you have the Iceman win and potentially make a comeback. No matter how it ends, you know it'll be exciting because Liddel will be going after Lyoto, a perfect matchup for him as Lyoto is a defensive/counter striker. I understand safety and "default" and what not, but White has to think about entertainment as well or you'll end up with another Silva/Alves. A great, smart fight (Still think Silva's a pussy), but extremely boring to watch.

 

[jmt225]

I think this would be a snores fest, really and truly I do. The ONLY thing that made his Evans fight entertaining is that Evans was cocky, and got cockier as time went on, and continued to make the first move. Lyoto fights are like a chess match, which you can't fault him on as he's getting wins, but its far from entertaining.

But if Shogun attacks it like he did in the Liddell fight, or like he use to in PRIDE, then the fight will be exciting as hell; I guarantee it. Someone will get knocked out.

However, I do see your concerns. But I just trust in Shogun to try and make the most out of this tremendous opportunity. He has to know that he has absolutely NOTHING to lose in this fight. The only way he loses is if he doesn't attack. Nobody will fault him for getting knockout by Machida, but everyone will hate him if he just lays back and waits for Machida to attack him the entire fight. There’s no excuse for that when you get such a great opportunity like this, and Dana would never forgive him for that.

If I had my choice, I'd have used Liddel's last fight on Lyoto, but hear me out first. Chuck still wants to fight, and still has a fight left on his contract. The man is STILL a name in this sport, it doesn't matter how many times he gets knocked out (though, I think that status is dwindling as well), he is STILL a name. If he went up against Lyoto, you can only win from that match. Either you have Lyoto destroy him, and he's beaten the Iceman, or you have the Iceman win and potentially make a comeback. No matter how it ends, you know it'll be exciting because Liddel will be going after Lyoto, a perfect matchup for him as Lyoto is a defensive/counter striker. I understand safety and "default" and what not, but White has to think about entertainment as well or you'll end up with another Silva/Alves. A great, smart fight (Still think Silva's a pussy), but extremely boring to watch.

What you're saying makes sense, but it's just not fair to the other fighters waiting in line for a title shot, and it would piss a lot of people off. Under no circumstances, can you ever give a title shot to someone who's lost 4 of his last 5 fights. I mean, the UFC is already notorious for firing fighters who go on such a streak, so to give a fighter a title shot who's on one just wouldn't be right.

Now, if you meant this as a non-title fight, then maybe you have a great idea. I mean, Dana could just say that there's no one worthy to challenge for the LHW title at this point in time, and Chuck Liddell's last fight should be one against the greatest LHW currently in the game. So, yeah... that makes sense to me. But man... I don't know where you got this idea that Liddell attacks. Dude is a counter striker and nothing more. Liddell vs. Machida has MUCH more of a chance of being a borefest than Shogun vs. Machida, in my opinion. His entire career all Chuck has done has defend the takedown, and counter strike. That's it. And he wouldn't change his game against Machida, especially after getting knocked out his last few fights and Machida showing his knockout power against Rashad Evans.

 

[Minor League Brian]

But if Shogun attacks it like he did in the Liddell fight, or like he use to in PRIDE, then the fight will be exciting as hell; I guarantee it. Someone will get knocked out.

You're right, but you cannot tell me Shogun looked good in that Liddel fight. I never saw him in PRIDE, just assorted clips, but if he comes like that then I will agree with you.

However, I do see your concerns. But I just trust in Shogun to try and make the most out of this tremendous opportunity. He has to know that he has absolutely NOTHING to lose in this fight. The only way he loses is if he doesn't attack. Nobody will fault him for getting knockout by Machida, but everyone will hate him if he just lays back and waits for Machida to attack him the entire fight. There’s no excuse for that when you get such a great opportunity like this, and Dana would never forgive him for that.

The same could have been said for Leites, you know? He was fighting smart, trying to get Silva into his domain but Silva was scared/smart enough not to. I don't think anyone can be faulted for getting beat by the "best in the world", though I think I'll make a topic refuting that.

And I'm not so sure he can't have that held against him. Evan's lost a lot of cred in my book getting dominated and knocked out by Machida like that, the UFC itself never rated his power that high. Ability, yes, but not that sort of knockout power.

What you're saying makes sense, but it's just not fair to the other fighters waiting in line for a title shot, and it would piss a lot of people off. Under no circumstances, can you ever give a title shot to someone who's lost 4 of his last 5 fights. I mean, the UFC is already notorious for firing fighters who go on such a streak, so to give a fighter a title shot who's on one just wouldn't be right.

But what about Randy? Didn't he come straight out of retirement and go straight into a title fight? If not, then forget what I said; but you could easily play it off as a retirement match. You know, a legends final stand or a shot at final glory? You KNOW that would draw huge numbers for UFC, the potential for the last sight of the Iceman, and the chance he could win back the title. And what could it do for Machida? Well, if he loses he's lost a lot of cred, that's true, but if he wins; he's the man who retired the Iceman. He's the LHW Champ. He IS the man. With the UFC's hype machine, he'd be built to be God like from that point.

Now, if you meant this as a non-title fight, then maybe you have a great idea. I mean, Dana could just say that there's no one worthy to challenge for the LHW title at this point in time, and Chuck Liddell's last fight should be one against the greatest LHW currently in the game. So, yeah... that makes sense to me.

But if Machida lost in a non-title fight, imagine how that'd look? A champion who lost? That'd make no sense, I think a champions title should always be on the line unless weight limits aren't met. The only fallback would be if Machida lost, but if he's as good as he's supposed to be (and he is DAMN good) he could build that cred back very easily.

But man... I don't know where you got this idea that Liddell attacks. Dude is a counter striker and nothing more. Liddell vs. Machida has MUCH more of a chance of being a borefest than Shogun vs. Machida, in my opinion. His entire career all Chuck has done has defend the takedown, and counter strike. That's it. And he wouldn't change his game against Machida, especially after getting knocked out his last few fights and Machida showing his knockout power against Rashad Evans.

You're right, he does counter strike. They love to point out how he's one of the most dangers men, even when he's backing up, but his last few fights; he's gotten knocked out because he's smelled blood and stepped in. That's the thing with Liddel, he hasn't lost his abilities or not; he's just gotten old and lost his chin. He just flails his arms around, and the minute he connects with a punch he moves forward.

 

[jmt225]

You're right, but you cannot tell me Shogun looked good in that Liddel fight. I never saw him in PRIDE, just assorted clips, but if he comes like that then I will agree with you.

Shogun looked better in the Liddell fight then he did in the Coleman fight. I know that's not saying much, but still... improvement is improvement.

The same could have been said for Leites, you know? He was fighting smart, trying to get Silva into his domain but Silva was scared/smart enough not to. I don't think anyone can be faulted for getting beat by the "best in the world", though I think I'll make a topic refuting that.

I completely disagree. I know pro wrestling and MMA aren't the same, but it's like what Bobby Heean use to say all the time when commentating Championship bouts: The Challenger has to beat the champion; the champion doesn't have to beat the challenger. I really feel the same applies in MMA. Anderson Silva has earned the right to fight how ever he wants. It's the challenger's responsibility to step up and have a good fight against him, not Silva or at this point, Machida’s.

And I'm not so sure he can't have that held against him. Evan's lost a lot of cred in my book getting dominated and knocked out by Machida like that, the UFC itself never rated his power that high. Ability, yes, but not that sort of knockout power.

I don't think many people respected Rashad Evans to being with, to be honest. I mean, everyone thought he was a good fighter, but nothing great. It always felt like he was a fluke champion from the start, and only defeating Lyoto Machida was going to gain him deep respect from most fans. But since he lost, it was nothing more then people getting what they expected. No respect was lost because there was hardly any of it there to begin with. And it's the same case for Shogun. Everyone's expecting him to lose, so if he does... he doesn't lose anything as long as he didn't fight scared for 5 rounds.

But what about Randy? Didn't he come straight out of retirement and go straight into a title fight? If not, then forget what I said; but you could easily play it off as a retirement match. You know, a legends final stand or a shot at final glory? You KNOW that would draw huge numbers for UFC, the potential for the last sight of the Iceman, and the chance he could win back the title. And what could it do for Machida? Well, if he loses he's lost a lot of cred, that's true, but if he wins; he's the man who retired the Iceman. He's the LHW Champ. He IS the man. With the UFC's hype machine, he'd be built to be God like from that point.

The difference between Randy Couture and Chuck is that Randy went up a weight class for that title shot. There was literally NO ONE to challenge for the UFC HW Title at the time, and Randy stepped up to the plate. He was UFC's only option.

In this case, however, Chuck is not the UFC's only option. There were a couple of ways they could've gone with this, but they decided to give Shogun the title shot. Had it been given to Chuck, people would've been left with a terrible taste in their mouth and Dana can't have that.

And also, if the UFC HW were still weak like it was when Randy challenged Sylvia, then hypothetically... Liddell could've then easily moved up to HW and receive a title shot, and no one would've bitched about it.

But if Machida lost in a non-title fight, imagine how that'd look? A champion who lost? That'd make no sense, I think a champions title should always be on the line unless weight limits aren't met. The only fallback would be if Machida lost, but if he's as good as he's supposed to be (and he is DAMN good) he could build that cred back very easily.

If Machida lost the non-title fight, then you have a money match set up for Liddell vs. Machida 2, this time with the LHW Title on the line. That's how that scenario makes the most sense to me.

You're right, he does counter strike. They love to point out how he's one of the most dangers men, even when he's backing up, but his last few fights; he's gotten knocked out because he's smelled blood and stepped in. That's the thing with Liddel, he hasn't lost his abilities or not; he's just gotten old and lost his chin. He just flails his arms around, and the minute he connects with a punch he moves forward.

Against Rampage, Chuck was backing up when he got KOed. Against Jardine, Chuck played it safe the whole fight. Against Rashad, Chuck was playing counter striker, and one of his counters didn’t go so well and he got KOed. Against Shogun, I will admit Chuck was more aggressive than usual, but I highly doubt he'd pull that against someone like Machida. I really believe a Machida/Liddell fight would be boring as hell because of that.

 

[Minor League Brian]

Shogun looked better in the Liddell fight then he did in the Coleman fight. I know that's not saying much, but still... improvement is improvement.

You are right, course maybe its me but I blame the Coleman fight on just that; Coleman. The man is just terrible now, and fighting against someone who's bad, when you're trying to work a strategy and expecting certain things from someone, you'll look like an idiot. But you are right, touche on that point; he did look better from fight to fight, I hope the trend continues as I'd like to see this Shogun everyone use to be so hyped over.

I completely disagree. I know pro wrestling and MMA aren't the same, but it's like what Bobby Heean use to say all the time when commentating Championship bouts: The Challenger has to beat the champion; the champion doesn't have to beat the challenger. I really feel the same applies in MMA. Anderson Silva has earned the right to fight how ever he wants. It's the challenger's responsibility to step up and have a good fight against him, not Silva or at this point, Machida’s.

You know, I agree and I disagree, but this is another topic; I'll get right on that as I plan on getting schooled in that topic as well. lol

I don't think many people respected Rashad Evans to being with, to be honest. I mean, everyone thought he was a good fighter, but nothing great. It always felt like he was a fluke champion from the start, and only defeating Lyoto Machida was going to gain him deep respect from most fans. But since he lost, it was nothing more then people getting what they expected. No respect was lost because there was hardly any of it there to begin with. And it's the same case for Shogun. Everyone's expecting him to lose, so if he does... he doesn't lose anything as long as he didn't fight scared for 5 rounds.

I don't think many people respected him as an individual, mostly because of how cocky he became, but look at his improvement. I mean seriously, I saw one of his first fights; he was terrible. He has come a LONG way, and I am by no means an Evans fan. Honestly, I hate the little fucker; he's too damn cocky, and I was (to steal a Pro Wrestling Term) marking like a school girl when I saw him trying to talk shit while eating Machida's barage of punches and kicks to the face. His knockout face; priceless. People should have respected his abilities at the end of it.

The difference between Randy Couture and Chuck is that Randy went up a weight class for that title shot. There was literally NO ONE to challenge for the UFC HW Title at the time, and Randy stepped up to the plate. He was UFC's only option.

In this case, however, Chuck is not the UFC's only option. There were a couple of ways they could've gone with this, but they decided to give Shogun the title shot. Had it been given to Chuck, people would've been left with a terrible taste in their mouth and Dana can't have that.

And also, if the UFC HW were still weak like it was when Randy challenged Sylvia, then hypothetically... Liddell could've then easily moved up to HW and receive a title shot, and no one would've bitched about it.

See, that I didn't know. I knew he fought at LHW, but thought he fought at both depending on the time. Either way, you have admitted it yourself; Shogun simply got it by default, and none of his wins have been very dominate, certainly not to the point that he deserves a title shot. I think a Legend's Retirement match would out-weigh Liddel's losses much more-so then Shogun's non-dominate victories, over sub-par talent. (Does that last line make ANY sense? lol, Sorry J.) Basically Liddel's status would put him ahead in my books.

If Machida lost the non-title fight, then you have a money match set up for Liddell vs. Machida 2, this time with the LHW Title on the line. That's how that scenario makes the most sense to me.

True, but then they'd have the hassle of reworking Liddel's contract, and then deciding how they'd go about that fight. Would you have him run concurring PPV matches? Though, you are right, many people would salivate at such a thought, and the amount of hype Liddel would have. It'd make for interesting television, but a hassle in the back.

Against Rampage, Chuck was backing up when he got KOed. Against Jardine, Chuck played it safe the whole fight. Against Rashad, Chuck was playing counter striker, and one of his counters didn’t go so well and he got KOed. Against Shogun, I will admit Chuck was more aggressive than usual, but I highly doubt he'd pull that against someone like Machida. I really believe a Machida/Liddell fight would be boring as hell because of that.

The Jardine fight...bah, that bastard is annoying. He fights so weird. The fight with Evans could have gone either way, imo. It came down to who got the luck of the draw. Evan's dodged a wicked uppercut, if I remember correctly. His Shogun fight was just sad, really. More so the unspoken stipulation then anything.

What I was trying to say is that he's a counter puncher, yes, up until he gets a piece of someone. Then he runs in swinging till he backs off again. Normally that'd be an issue against someone like Lyoto, who has a knack for just never getting hit, but I think with a belt, his career; everything on the line, you'd have a damn aggressive Liddel out there, and maybe one who'd actually train his heart out.

 

[jmt225]

I don't think many people respected him as an individual, mostly because of how cocky he became, but look at his improvement. I mean seriously, I saw one of his first fights; he was terrible. He has come a LONG way, and I am by no means an Evans fan. Honestly, I hate the little fucker; he's too damn cocky, and I was (to steal a Pro Wrestling Term) marking like a school girl when I saw him trying to talk shit while eating Machida's barage of punches and kicks to the face. His knockout face; priceless. People should have respected his abilities at the end of it.

There are just a lot people who thought Evans lost his fights against Tito Ortiz and Michael Bisping, which is why they were never convinced he was something special. Then you factor in the Liddell fight where all he did was land one bomb, and the fact that Forrest was beating his ass before getting caught... people just didn't buy into Rashad's hype. It was hard to. And once Rampage wipes the floor with him, I don't think there will be that many more wins in 'Shad's future.

See, that I didn't know. I knew he fought at LHW, but thought he fought at both depending on the time. Either way, you have admitted it yourself; Shogun simply got it by default, and none of his wins have been very dominate, certainly not to the point that he deserves a title shot. I think a Legend's Retirement match would out-weigh Liddel's losses much more-so then Shogun's non-dominate victories, over sub-par talent. (Does that last line make ANY sense? lol, Sorry J.) Basically Liddel's status would put him ahead in my books.

You see, I really like that idea, but at the end of the day... it's just too unrealistic. Now, if Shogun were to get injured while training, then perhaps it would be logical for this dream of yours to become true, lol.

True, but then they'd have the hassle of reworking Liddel's contract, and then deciding how they'd go about that fight.

I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem at all considering how close Dana and Liddell are.

Would you have him run concurring PPV matches? Though, you are right, many people would salivate at such a thought, and the amount of hype Liddel would have. It'd make for interesting television, but a hassle in the back.

I personally don't think so. I mean, first of all, the chance of Liddell actually winning the fight is very, very slim. But if by some miracle he did, depending on how much damage there was, Dana can make up his mind right after the fight when and where their next fight takes place. All they would need to prepare is 3/4 months, and UFC cards aren't fully booked in that far in advance.

The Jardine fight...bah, that bastard is annoying. He fights so weird. The fight with Evans could have gone either way, imo. It came down to who got the luck of the draw. Evan's dodged a wicked uppercut, if I remember correctly. His Shogun fight was just sad, really. More so the unspoken stipulation then anything.

I agree in all cases.

What I was trying to say is that he's a counter puncher, yes, up until he gets a piece of someone. Then he runs in swinging till he backs off again. Normally that'd be an issue against someone like Lyoto, who has a knack for just never getting hit, but I think with a belt, his career; everything on the line, you'd have a damn aggressive Liddel out there, and maybe one who'd actually train his heart out.

Maybe so man, but what you just said about Chuck in that last sentence is how I think Shogun will feel going into the fight, thus giving us all our money's worth.

 

[Minor League Brian]

There are just a lot people who thought Evans lost his fights against Tito Ortiz and Michael Bisping, which is why they were never convinced he was something special. Then you factor in the Liddell fight where all he did was land one bomb, and the fact that Forrest was beating his ass before getting caught... people just didn't buy into Rashad's hype. It was hard to. And once Rampage wipes the floor with him, I don't think there will be that many more wins in 'Shad's future.

You're right, but I dunno man. His confidence, and his abilities, just grew with every fight. And no lie, you have to admit that Rampage looked like shit in his last fight. Honestly, I want to see Rampage wipe the floor with him, but I think Rampage is scared; which damn, ANOTHER topic I wanna make now.

You see, I really like that idea, but at the end of the day... it's just too unrealistic. Now, if Shogun were to get injured while training, then perhaps it would be logical for this dream of yours to become true, lol.

Well, it depends on how you wanna look at it I suppose. Dana could hype it any way he pleases, but...

I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem at all considering how close Dana and Liddell are.

...this is the entire reason why it won't happen. Dana is worried about Chucky, and doesn't even want him to fight. Chuck was getting lawyers and such into the mix to even get his last fight on his contract. As a friend, Dana doesn't want Chuck to fight again because he's scared for his health, so I fully expect Chuck to get an "easy" last match, if he gets one at all at this point.

I personally don't think so. I mean, first of all, the chance of Liddell actually winning the fight is very, very slim. But if by some miracle he did, depending on how much damage there was, Dana can make up his mind right after the fight when and where their next fight takes place. All they would need to prepare is 3/4 months, and UFC cards aren't fully booked in that far in advance.

You're right. It just seems like a whole lot more work, in my head, to go about it like that. Though that idea has even me excited, it wasn't something I had thought of. It'd be better then another Couture/Liddell match for "nostalgia's" sake.

Maybe so man, but what you just said about Chuck in that last sentence is how I think Shogun will feel going into the fight, thus giving us all our money's worth.

True, but Shogun's job/contract ain't on the line, and just like QB's in the NFL; everyone pulls a little extra out of the tank when a contract is on the line. Griffin/Bonner is a good representation of that.