Loser's Bracket Debate #20: Mitch Hennessey -vs- Mr Steve

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by Dagger Dias, Apr 14, 2012.

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  1. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Will women's wrestling ever be a big deal again?


    This is a second round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Mr Steve won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Sunday at 11am EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    I'll be choosing the right to go second.
     
    #2
  3. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    I'll be choosing the side of the debate I want to argue, and I will say NO, women's wrestling will NOT become a big deal again.
     
    #3
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  4. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Women's wrestling will not be a big deal again, and here are the reasons why I feel this way.

    Skills and in ring ability have taken a backseat to beauty, sex appeal, and character. Looks have become the main priority for any woman, who wishes to step foot in the WWE or TNA, and if you don't have the look of a drop dead gorgeous, super model, then you pretty much screwed, and your chances of getting hired or receiving a sustained hard push are very slim. TNA has tried to take a more serious approach on women's wrestling, but sex appeal still packs a more powerful punch in TNA. The Knockouts will go out of their way to showcase their stunning bodies, it's kind of hard to focus on their matches sometimes, and their revealing ring attire doesn't help anything. When it comes to mainstream women's wrestling, women haven't been able to rise above the status of eye candy for the most part. This is the cold, hard truth, especially when it comes to the WWE.

    And what do we have to look forward to when it comes to the talent pool? Sure, the Divas roster is loaded with a handful of good looking women, but when it comes to in ring skills, the majority of them don't do anything to stand out. They can deliver watchable matches, but the Divas haven't delivered anything truly memorable in a long time.

    WWE might pull the trigger on Kharma/Beth Phoenix feud in the near future, but what could you really expect from that feud? Kharma's unfortunate and tragic situation will cause her to lose a lot of steam, and Beth has been incredibly stale as champion for months. Also, could you trust WWE to put a good amount of effort into in a big time feud for the Divas division? Vince McMahon doesn't consider the Divas to be a top priority at all. They're an after thought, and they've been treated as such over the past year.

    TNA's roster might feature more experienced and known veterans (Tara, Mickie James, Gail Kim), the quality of the matches might be a little bit better, but can think of any memorable feuds recently? I know I can't. And who is ready to step up into the top spot for the future? Miss Tessmacher? Velvet Sky? Please.

    Also, another example of the disrespect women's wrestling receives would be the infamous "piss break" treatment. Women's matches are just looked at as a way to give the crowd a break during TV shows and pay per views, especially during pay per views that feature a stacked card. Wrestlemania 26 would be a good example:

    [YOUTUBE]UeJtzyy50ts[/YOUTUBE]

    The eight match on the card.

    This very shitty 10 Diva tag team match took place after the Jericho/Edge WHC match, because the crowd needed a chance to catch their breath for this:

    [YOUTUBE]z-5YdjQUVkg[/YOUTUBE]

    And this:

    [YOUTUBE]0TTVNgDQqv0[/YOUTUBE]

    When I look at the rosters for both WWE and TNA, I don't see a potential superstar for the future, at all. Both rosters are loaded with gorgeous women, but their looks are the main attraction, and I don't see a Trish Stratus or Lita on either roster.

    Yeah, WWE could provide the saving grace with a Beth Phoenix/Kharma feud, but where could they possibly go after that? Beth has already dominated the entire Diva roster throughout her career, and no one on the Divas roster can pose a legit physical threat to Kharma. A constant barrage of David VS Goliath style matches and squashes would just feel very tiresome after a while. And Michelle McCool is retired, so you can't count on her anymore.

    And as I said before, I just don't trust WWE with a Beth/Kharma feud. They don't treat their women's division with any real respect, and Eve's heel turn was a prime example of this. For months, Eve was the Diva that received the hardest push. She was interested into a major storyline with Kane, Zack Ryder, and John Cena. Her heel turn received the bulk of the spotlight in the division. Meanwhile, Beth Phoenix, the Divas Champion, became an afterthought. She was on the back burner during this feud, and this type of treatment for any champion is just unacceptable.

    The women's division in WWE is in terrible shape, and I'm not the only one, who feels this way:

    [YOUTUBE]x9i0JnFI68Q&feature=player_embedded#![/YOUTUBE]

    Lita is a four time women's champion, and she does notice potential, but she also voices her displeasure with the current state of the division, and stresses the need for change and improvement.

    Women's wrestling isn't a draw anymore. The glory days of Trish and Lita are behind us, there isn't anyone out there, who can match the sex symbol status of a Sable, and with the way things are now, women's wrestling won't return to any sort of prominence.
     
    #4
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  5. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Women’s Wrestling: A re-genesis​
    Let’s put this debate baby in its debating crib by saying that, I’m putting this under the context of promotions that feature women’s wrestling in a more prominent role than the big shows like the ‘E. They say that the purpose of Women’s wrestling is for the heat of the match to die down a bit and let it rest in order for the bigger matches to quickly get the crowd going. Meanwhile, in other places; there are promotions in which women’s wrestling is heavily featured and even all-women’s promotions.

    I honestly believe that women’s wrestling will be something that ACTUALLY features wrestling; not gimmick matches in which women are stripped down to their lingerie in order to win a match. It might be years from now; seeds of a slow-cooked development in which women would be taught to work matches and rely on more than their looks to get the crowd engaged, which creates resurgence in women’s wrestling.

    Kharma

    The days of Mae Young being the NWA Women’s Champion are long past, but the rumblings of it happening again will imply and mean that it could become something entirely different: Kharma. Kharma, formerly known as Amazing Kong, had arrived to the WWE with signs of her going to knock down every single Diva in their division.

    What does this mean? A sign of a project engineered to see if the Diva mold can be broken away with Kharma as its masthead? It could be. But all that we know for sure is that she seemed intent on taking divas out. It wasn’t until she was taken out of tapings because she was with child that the push stopped, but it seems as if she would be willing to have it kick started up again.





    Kharma being in the WWE seems to me like a project in order to shake things up when it comes to Divas.

    Internationally known​
    What, did you think that it isn’t happening in the United States only?





    Right now, there’s a follow up to SMASH in Wrestling New Classis. It recently started back in April. The point is, we cannot be narrow minded this day and age and say that Women’s Wrestling in the United States is the only place where it’s getting a resurgence.

    SHIMMER​

    SHIMMER’s a promotion in which the focus is strictly on the women. Its sister company is Ring of Honor and if I’m not mistaken, they have an exchange contract with TNA in order to feature the women as Knockouts in their promotion.

    Women’s wrestling is still thriving in some semblance, whether it’s in the United States or somewhere else.
     
    #5
  6. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Yeah, I get what you're saying here Mr.Steve, but if women's wrestling is going to make a resurgence, it NEEDS to happen in the WWE. The WWE is professional wrestling. This is an indisputable fact. What you do for the WWE will make the most noticeable impact, they draw the most interest from larger audiences, and they can provide the bigger stage, that will receive more attention. Vince McMahon has no interest in featuring women's wrestling in a prominent role, and the current state of the Divas division proves this.

    It sounds like you're trying to sugar-coat the infamous "piss break" label here.

    If it's not happening in WWE, then it really doesn't matter, so the action in these "other places" aren't going to make much of a difference.

    Here's the problem with Kharma. She can only continue down the path of "taking divas out" for so long. The constant pattern of beat downs and implant busters will become stale after a while, and then what? A feud with Beth Phoenix? Beth hasn't done anything memorable during her lengthy reign, and Kharma has lost some steam during her absence, so what could a feud between these two possibly accomplish?

    And when you look further down the roster, besides Phoenix, who could possibly be considered a legit threat to Kharma? Can you think of someone, Mr. Steve? Because I know I can't.

    Competitive, hard hitting matches like this won't have a place in WWE. WWE is what matters most, when it comes to professional wrestling. It's not a narrow minded style of thinking, it's just the truth.

    If it's not thriving in WWE, then it doesn't matter. The WWE is the biggest and most influential wrestling promotion in the entire world, and if you're going to make a splash in the business of professional wrestling, you need to make an impact in their ring.
     
    #6
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  7. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    No, it doesn't. WWE is sports entertainment. They've been trying to break away from the doings of the Attitude era for so long, they've embraced sports entertainment, a form of pro wrestling in which the predominant form is the build up to the match as opposed to the match itself.

    Why would I sugar coat something we both agree on?

    If it doesn't matter, why did they hire Kharma? It would mean that they just see her as a blank diva and it would be something that's wholly different than the model searches they've done, like with Trish when she was recruited after modeling.

    You build it up, you do vignettes. You use the hype machine that the WWE is in essence. They did it with Kharma herself, what's to say that they won't do it to another Diva, for example?

    That's why you build them up; it's why you have the roster in the first place. You just build them up. The WWE is certainly good at that.

    I can't agree with that. Somehow, I can't. But what about the promotions in Japan and Mexico? They won't matter in the context of professional wrestling. I swear, there's going to be a day when the 'E starts noticing what's going on and do something about it. They did it with Kharma, so who's to say they won't hire Kana at some point, or any women's wrestler?

    No, you don't. That's not the point. The point is, women's wrestling deviated from the norm back in the 90's when the product called for a more adult-oriented programming. And you have to have been there in the 80's and 70's to remember women's wrestling. Fans just remember more prominently the bra and panties match, the women's wrestling in thongs, etc.

    Today, the product calls for something that isn't that strong a viewing material. Women's wrestling has been considered eye candy for the men ever since Fabulous Moolah. What will happen to it?

    Will there be professional wrestling in it, or will it go back to the days of a pillow fight to see who's on the cover of Playboy?



    Will there be actual wrestling, if only for four minutes? It's better to say that four minutes of wrestling are better than no minutes of wrestling.

     
    #7
  8. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    The image of the WWE has changed, but WWE is STILL the face of professional wrestling. If you're going to make an impact in pro wrestling, you MUST do it in their ring. Accolades on the smaller outlets/venues won't have the same value as accomplishments in WWE. IF these other praised female wrestlers from smaller promotions want to make a difference and a noticeable impact on women's wrestling, the WWE will give them a better chance to do so. This can not be denied.

    Recently Kelly Kelly, Beth Phoenix, and Eve had the chance to compete on the card for Wrestlemania 28. They were able to get a good amount of exposure in front of a huge crowd, and Beth's little flare up with Maria Menounos was showcased on Extra. This match was able to grab a piece of mainstream exposure, and all three women wrestled in front of a crowd larger than 78,000 people. You're only going to get that type of exposure in the WWE.

    Well, I guess it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

    Nothing in Kharma's future is certain. Also, she has lost a ton of steam during her absence. When it comes to her character, you have to ask yourself a few important questions: Will Kharma be able to regain the momentum she once had? Can WWE capture lighting in a bottle with her character again? It's something you have to think about, because the constant pattern of her destroying the Divas division will become redundant and tiresome after a while.

    As far as I know, there aren't too many Kharmas out their, Mr.Steve. When it comes to Divas, WWE is looking for sex appeal. I'm not trying to be mean, but I got a really good look at those women in the videos you posted for your opening statement, and they're not in the perfect 10/super model range, when it comes to looks. They're not going to make you drool, and you probably wouldn't give them a second look, if they walked passed you on the street.

    WWE is good at building up male wrestlers, but you can't say the same thing about women's wrestling in WWE. New Divas aren't going to receive a Drew McIntyre or Alberto Del Rio style push, because WWE and Vince won't put that much time and effort into women's wrestling. It won't happen.

    With Kharma you can have something different. She has an incredible look, an intimidating presence, and her character can feel refreshing. What could Kana possibly bring to the table? Kharma is a rare exception to WWE's current standards, and if you don't have drop dead gorgeous looks, then you're in for a rough ride in the Divas division.

    Times have changed, Mr. Steve. Like it or not, sex appeal is a big deal, when it comes to women's wrestling in WWE. TNA, WWE, it doesn't matter, if you want to get a significant amount of air time, then you need to look like this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If you don't have the look of a desirable model, then your shit of luck.

    Currently, women's wrestling isn't a big deal, and this line of thinking isn't going to change anytime soon. Moolah was a dominant force, but those days are LONG gone.

    Let me ask you something, Mr. Steve. Beth Phoenix is currently in the middle of a very lengthy title run. She's supposed to be the dominant, superior heel Diva, who can out wrestle any challenger in her path, but do you really care about her run as champion? Phoenix's run has been pretty forgettable, and her time as Divas champion has felt like a complete waste.

    Well, we're in the PG era, so the ties with Playboy have been cut, because nude Divas wouldn't fit well in a PG environment, for obvious reasons. The pillow fight matches could provide the fantasy of a lifetime for male fans, but internet porn is easy to find, so there's no use for these type of matches anymore.

    Of course you'll see wrestling, but can you remember one truly memorable Divas match over the past few years, Mr.Steve? The overwhelming majority of Divas matches are poor quality, or very forgettable.
     
    #8
  9. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    And when that happens, that's when we'll know that Women's Wrestling got good. That's the whole point of the debate; whether women's wrestling will be a big deal again. And it can.

    That's also a way in which Women's wrestling can work. The Extra confrontation was a way for them to get buys for Wrestlemania. It made sense to have a Diva visit there since Menounos was looking to work with the WWE again, in some capacity. So they just thought of a sensible step in getting a Diva to work up there.


    She what?



    I consider her case delicate in the sense of the story line never got off the ground, so to speak. Most likely, if she would work as a heel, she would have had plenty of the roster to play off of. When the hype machine wants something, it will go to great lengths to get it.

    Have you seen Tamina?

    No one expects Vince to do so, but what one can simply ask for is a better match layout of the usual Diva's match. Right now, the Divas are basically changing their work. You can bet like as they did with Kharma's hype video, they'll do the same thing with someone else that they want her to face.










    What about Mickie James while we're at it?

    That's the point of women's wrestling: the damn air time! The live crowd might hit the bathroom or the snack bar or whatever the hell they go for, but there would be people watching at home, wouldn't they? The company will focus on the ones that the camera is real friendly with, and it'll happen for itself.

    Let me give you these words:

    Trish was a model.

    Stratigias grew up in Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada where she attended Bayview Secondary School.[11][12] She enrolled at York University, where she studied biology and kinesiology and played soccer and field hockey.[2][6][9] Due to a faculty strike in 1997, she was forced to change her plans.[2][6][9][11][12] She was working as a receptionist at a local gym when she was approached by the publisher of MuscleMag International to do a test shoot for the magazine.[12][13] She later appeared on the cover of the May 1998 issue and was signed to a two year contract.[13] For the next six months, she worked on her body and appeared on numerous magazine covers.[12] During this time, she joined Big Daddy Donnie & Jeff Marek as the third host of Live Audio Wrestling on Toronto Sports Radio, The FAN 590.[2][14][15]
    Stratigias had been a fan of wrestling since childhood and her modeling work caught the attention of the World Wrestling Federation (WWF).[2][11][14][15][16] In November 1999, she was signed to a multi-year contract with the company, who sent her to Sully's Gym where she was trained by Ron Hutchinson.[2][11][12][15]

    And the collective hails her as one of the best Divas that ever laced up a pait.

    Let's go one further: when was the last time you saw a women's cage match in the 'E?



    A damn cage match!

    Explain LayCool, then. Say whatever you will about Trish Stratus and Lita, but McCool and Layla strapped on the Diva's Division on their fucking shoulders. Women's wrestling has been based around being a Valet and being Eye Candy for the men. The more resurgent eras were when Trish was doing such a thing while she was developing, same as Lita.

    Bath Phoenix vs. Tamina in Elimination Chamber 2012. It was the heat cooldown, but it was a decent match. All that's on Youtube are WWE '12 matches, same as the entire card.

    Right now, there's a good influx of women who are working in the business as well as people backstage who are probably wanting the division to get better too. From last I checked, Goldust is laying out the matches with them.

    What about in TNA, where they held a Knockouts Special? That's a sign that they have faith in the knockouts, at least.

    There's got to be a sense of what's expected out of the Women's Wrestling, Mitch. For all my arguments, I'm merely saying that there's hope for the future, if anything. And that's what this is about: whether or not this can happen, and I'm saying it can.
     
    #9
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  10. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Not with the way things are going now. The current state of women's wrestling in WWE doesn't have a bright future, and I really don't see how things can change, because women's wrestling in WWE has become an afterthought.


    And that's what I'm getting at. You NEED the WWE, if you're going to make a noticeable impact in pro wrestling. There's no way around it. The WWE will provide the bigger stage, and more exposure that you won't get any where else, so if women's wrestling is to make a comeback, then it has to happen in WWE.


    Yeah, but will Kharma's potential push really mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Remember the pairing of these two?

    [​IMG]

    The Divas Of Doom were supposed to tear through the entire roster as heels. But what eventually happened? This pairing of a destructive duo eventually fell flat. Phoenix's title reign is forgettable, and Natalya's character eventually devolved into an in embarrassing farting gimmick. WWE doesn't value women's wrestling.

    For years WWE has built up Beth Phoenix as the dominant and unstoppable force in the division, and Natalya has the privilege of the Hart legacy to her name, and WWE dropped the ball with these two. WWE already went down the "let's destroy all the Barbie dolls" route with Beth and Natalya, and their mission to bring more respect to the Divas division went no where. Kharma could shake things up, but will WWE give her the chance to do so? Will they give her the necessary sustained, lengthy push to accomplish this goal? I doubt it.

    Yes. Of course I have. But has Tamina done anything to change women's wrestling in WWE? She has the last name of a Hall Of Famer, but other than that, she really doesn't have anything to brag about.

    Really? You think so? Beth Phoenix is the ONLY challenger, who could pose a serious threat to Kharma. The fans are familiar with Beth, they know her, so why would WWE waste time and effort by bringing in someone from the outside, when they already have the perfect challenger on their roster?

    Mickie James has won multiple championships, and she has become a recognizable face in women's wrestling, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.


    They're receiving air time, but the air time won't mean a damn thing, if the mass majority doesn't care about them, and women's wrestling will continue to receive the piss break treatment.

    Stratus was a model, and she has received a tremendous amount of praise, but Trish represents the past, but this woman represents WWE's line of thinking now a days:

    [​IMG]

    Guess what? Maryse was also a model, she holds the record for the longest reign for any Divas Champion and she was AWFUL in the ring. Sure, Maryse is a stunning woman, but her atrocious work inside the ring couldn't help elevate the Divas division at all. WWE's evaluation on talent now a days is dogshit, they only care about looks, and Maryse is a prime example of this.

    Probably won't see one in WWE, because it would take time and effort to build a feud that ends in a cage match, and WWE won't do that, because as I've said before, they don't value women's wrestling, or treat it with respect.

    Layla and Michelle were just two heel Divas that portrayed the "mean girls" gimmick. They were just two superficial women, who poked fun at the looks of other face Divas on the roster (most notably Mickie James). Michelle and Layla worked well together as a duo, but they didn't do anything to change women's wrestling in WWE. The Bellas used a similar gimmick during their recent heel run, their gimmick wasn't something groundbreaking, because ANY Diva on the WWE roster is capable of portraying, the mean high school girl role. You just need an attractive woman, and WWE has plenty of women to pick from.

    It was an average match at best, and Phoenix VS Tamnia from EC will be forgotten.

    And women's wrestling is still irrelevant in WWE.

    Never saw it, so I can't comment here.

    Kharma could be the only saving grace for women's wrestling, but what's left after a potential feud with Beth Phoenix? Kharma can only dominate the entire division for so long. WWE doesn't have faith in women's wrestling, and women's wrestling doesn't draw money. Having the stunning looks of a model will land you a spot on the roster, but these women won't help elevate the prestige of women's wrestling at all. WWE will provide the bigger stage, but Vince doesn't value women's wrestling. The future of women's wrestling has hit a dead end, and things aren't looking good for the future.
     
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  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, this debate is now closed.

    Judges, you may begin.
     
    #11
  12. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - This is a tough one as both were extremely well done. I'm gonna go with Steven on this one, just because I like his opening just a tad more.

    Point - Mr. Steve

    Punctuation - Mitch was late a few times.

    Point - Mr. Steve

    Informative - Mitch had some nice videos and pictures, but Steven's did more for me.

    Point - Mr. Steve

    Persuasion - I'm gonna side with Mitch on this one. Steven did an excellent job on his side, and I was very impressed with his use of outside companies, even going international. It was a nice touch, and I was leaning on his side, but Mitch just kept with the WWE being the platform to do it. It's an unfortunate truth in the wrestling industry, but it is the truth. Right now I just can't see it becoming what it was when you had Lita, Trish, Mickie, Victoria, and so on.

    Points - R.J. MacReady

    This was another rock solid debate and I had expected nothing less than that because of the two guys going at it. Great job guys.

    Yes I know it means very little to the both of you.

    CH David scores this Mr. Steve 3, R.J. MacReady 2.
     
    #12
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  13. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Steve was overall easier to read and understand when it came to his posts and they flowed better.

    Punctuality: Quicker than Mitch, Steve takes the point.

    Informative: Steve had more links and images at his disposal and brought more information to the table. Mitch did a decent job too.

    Persuasion: Tough as CH said, but I felt Mitch had a broader argument that he defended and advanced with better than Steve though it was a good job from him too.

    FunKay Scores It: Steve: 3, Mitch: 2
     
    #13
  14. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity- It's a toss up here, but I'm giving it to Mitch. I just thought that he presented his posts better, beginning to end.

    -Mitch

    Punctuality- Steve was on it more, Mitch was late a few times.

    - Steve

    Informative- Steve brought more tangible information. The pictures and videos were brought in droves, but Steve brought a little more.

    -Steve

    Persuasion- Mitch just nailed it. Steve fought valiantly, but when the basis of your argument is trying to completely disregard how the WWE, the largest wrestling entity in the world, handles their female professionals, you're fighting an uphill battle. Still, a very enjoyable debate, just one that I thought Mitch handled better.

    - Mitch

    Nate scores it Mitch 3, Steve 2.
     
    #14
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  15. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Clarity: Mitch. Both guys had well organized posts but Mitch wins by a small margin here. Keeping that string of pictures within spoiler tags made the post look more reader-friendly.

    Punctuality: Mr Steve. He was much quicker with his responses.

    Informative: Mitch. Both did excellent at bringing in videos, but I felt that Mitch did just a little better here. Sometimes a still frame picture or two can say more than a string of videos.

    Persuasion: Mitch. He kept a firm stance on how WWE has treated their female wrestlers, but I will still give Mr Steve credit for his efforts here as well. This was an excellent debate.


    I score it as: Mitch 4, Mr Steve 1.
     
    #15
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  16. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to Mitch Henessey who edges Mr. Steve by a close score of 11-9. He will move onto Loser's bracket #23 to face hatehabsforever.

    Unfortunately for Mr. Steve, you have been eliminated from this year's tournament. I appreciate your efforts and wish you the best in all of your future endeavors.

    A very nice debate by both of you.
     
    #16
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