Loser's Bracket Debate #10: hatehabsforever -vs- Paralyzer Z

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Can AJ Styles benefit from turning heel?


    This is a first round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Paralyzer Z won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Wednesday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    I will let habs go first.
     
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  3. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    This was an easy choice. I will argue that AJ Styles would not benefit from turning heel.

    Good luck Paralyzer, here's hoping for a great debate. It's late here so we'll get this going in the morning.
     
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  4. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    As I stated in my position stating post, I feel that AJ Styles would not benefit from a heel turn. This was not a tough decision for me at all, and now I will tell you why.

    As a general rule of thumb, most professional wrestlers have a tendency, a persona for which they are more naturally suited. Some guys are meant to be a face and need to stay there throughout their careers. Guys like Rey Mysterio or Jeff Hardy, to state just two, have a style, a look, and a character which is naturally suited to remain as a face. Other guys are quite the opposite: Jeff Jarrett or Jack Swagger, for example, who are naturally suited to be heels. And then of course there are the select few who can play either side of the fence equally well. Guys like Triple H, Chris Jericho, or Bret Hart who can be equally effective as a heel or as a face, which is a unique talent that few guys possess. In my opinion, for several reasons, AJ Styles falls into the former category: a guy who is naturally suited to wrestle as a face for his entire professional career, a guy who needs to remain in that context to be effective.

    Just look at Styles. He has the stereotypical look of a baby face. The clean cut, all-American boy whose entire appearance and demeanor just exudes baby face. He looks like the guy next door, the guy you hope your daughter brings home to meet the family. Granted there have been heels who resemble this look, this does not in any way guarantee a face status. However, it does lend to a natural position as a company baby face.

    Combine this with his wrestling style. He competes in a high flying, technical style which is hard for the fans to not get behind and cheer. Heels tend to compete in a style that is cheap, physical, aggressive, and slower pace. Cheap shots, low blows, and a more grounded style of action. When you get a guy who has been widely considered to be one of the most technically gifted and highly skilled in the professional wrestling business, a guy who wows the crowd with his technical skill and high octane style, it's hard for the fans to boo him. The fans enjoy his work and his style so much that they cannot help but cheer for him, which naturally progresses into a face character.

    Combine all of this with his absolute lack of mic skills and personality, and again, we see a guy who will always struggle as a heel but can continue to prosper as a face. A heel has to be able to handle the microphone extremely well to be able to function effectively in the heel role. The heel has to be able to get on the stick and entice the crowd to boo him. He has to be able to generate heat not only by what he does, but what he says. Unfortunately, most times when Styles is holding the mic in his hands, it reminds me of nails grinding on a chalkboard, difficult and somewhat painful to listen to. If he is not able to verbalize as a heel, he will not be effective in that role. The same is not necessarily true of a face. Granted, it is helpful if a face can speak well too and have natural charisma, but it is not as essential as it is for a heel. A face can get over on ability alone, whereas a heel has to be able to augment that with his mic skills. Styles is unable to do that. Even when he has had a mouthpiece, he has not thrived in the role.

    Bottom line in the above paragraphs? AJ Styles does not look like a heel. His style of wrestling and his lack of prowess on the microphone are not conducive to a heel status. The fans do not want him to be a heel, they want him to be the baby face, the face of TNA Wrestling, or at least one of them.

    They have tried to turn Styles heel a few times in the past, and in my opinion, it had always resulted in failure. The simple fact of the matter is, he is naturally suited to be a baby face, whereas his attempts to function as a heel have come across as forced, unnatural, and ultimately ineffective and unsuccessful. The most recent example of this is when he aligned himself with Ric Flair at Genesis in 2010 to turn full heel. In my opinion, this heel turn was a total failure. He may have learned some things from being affiliated with Ric Flair, but in the end, even with one of the best heels in the business in his corner as his mouthpiece and mentor, Styles as a heel simply did not work. It was forced and contrived and ultimately fell flat. When they eventually turned him face again, the fans loved it, because that was where they wanted him to be in the first place. The fans did not want this:

    [​IMG]

    The AJ Styles that they want, the baby face guy who should be the face of the organization, this is the guy they want:

    [​IMG]

    If you dig back further into his history, TNA has dabbled with Styles as a heel, but the results of these attempts were equally unremarkable and ineffective. TNA, for some reason, loves the random face/heel turn, the shock value which has been, up until lately, a Russo-esque feature of the company. But these random turns don't work in the vast majority of instances. There is no need to try to force a heel turn upon someone when they are not well suited to it, appear to be uncomfortable with it, and when there is a history of lackluster results.

    In conclusion, I do not feel that AJ Styles would benefit from a heel turn. He is a natural face based upon his appearance, his style of action, and if history is any judge, the fans prefer a face Styles over a heel rendition of him. AJ Styles has undergone heel shifts in the past, and they have failed, even when under the guidance of the dirtiest player in the game. You cannot force a heel turn upon someone who is not suited for it and who doesn't appear, at least on the surface, to want it. For a heel to be effective, it has to be natural, unforced, and accompanied with the ability to sustain it on the mic. Styles is lacking in all accounts. In my opinion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. TNA should push AJ Styles heavily as one of the top baby faces of the company, rather than try to force feed the fans with an ineffective and unnatural version of him which will ultimately end in failure. So no , AJ Styles would not benefit from a heel turn. Let The Phenomenal One do just that: be a phenomenal baby face, not a force fed heel.
     
    #4
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  5. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    A.J Styles from the outside one would assume is a Ricky Steamboat type "Face for life" attempts have been made for him to go heel before but none of them went anywhere, but who's to say he can't pull it of now? I'll to you why.

    It would be a fresh direction for him to go in​


    The last time Styles was a heel was during the Fortune-Immortal feud, of which he was heel from it's inception through to February 10 2011. That includes his initial run with Ric Flair to which I believe was a mild success. Regardless for well over a year now he has played his oh so casual face character that he usually does. Now by the former TNA head of creative department, Vince Russo's standards something "fresh" as I said happens quite often. Now that he is gone Styles has been stable for the past year or so. I'm not saying that his face run is bad, in fact his feuds with Bully Ray, Christopher Daniels, and Kazarian have all produced good matches, but that is expected by Styles face or heel.

    A heel turn being fresh as, cliché as that sounds and as much as the internet wrestling fans overuse it is something that A.J could use. It could get him into great feuds with James Storm, and Austin Aries . Wouldn't it be convenient to have the top guy in the company available to face the biggest face in your company (Storm)? he guy isn't bland as a face so why not take to the next tire by making him a heel? He clearly like being a heel. Disagree with me? Look at this interview excerpt:

    “They always say a part of you really wants to be like that of your character. It comes pretty natural for me. It’s like I picture someone driving slow in the fast lane when you want them to move over. If you can imagine how angry you are then, I have the opportunity to show that. It’s a lot of fun.”

    http://www.oklafan.com/interviews/613/article.html

    A role he clearly seems comfortable with, and has as seen by his past heel run. However more importantly...

    Being a heel would be easier than being a face


    I've seen a plethora of people argue that "A.J sucks as a heel, he can't do it, he's a high flyer, he has no mic skills" when in fact he is quite capable of pulling it off in a convincing way.

    You don't need to be a grounded, and slow paced to be a heel. You just have to make the crowd hate you. Sure A.J flies around the place naturally a crowd pop follows. But we've seen before that a high flyer can pull of being a heel and even Styles himself can prove that:

    "I don’t have to keep coming up with creative stuff. It also gets the fans angry because they know I can do these moves but I won’t. It’s like the more I keep doping less, the angrier the fans get. It makes people mad when they want to see what a guy can do and then he doesn’t give it to them.”

    Source: http://www.oklafan.com/interviews/613/article.html

    Excellent reasoning right there. Everyone knows he CAN make them cheer that he CAN pull of crazy stunts, and that he CAN satisfy them with ease. It's cruiserweight heel 101, and a much safer as well as easier route for him to take. He can wrestle technically which is not a style reserved for faces. It's simple as easy to pull off and gets the crowd to hate you immediately. It's called psychologically affecting the crowd just in that small little detail. We all know that technical wrestling and submission wrestling go hand-in hand due to the pacing off both that contributes to the likability (lack of) of a heel. Styles being the one of the best in both high flying and to some extent ground wrestling would have no problem doing this.

    Another arugement that often comes up regards his mic skills. As we have seen in the past 2 or 3 years they are nothing fancy, at least when he is a face. But just look at the foll lowing video and tell me that he can't pull of being a heel verbally.

    [YOUTUBE]zQbh0Ziq4M4[/YOUTUBE]

    Contrary to popular belief A.J can't pull of a good promo just like that. Just look at him yelling at Mike Tenay convincingly, look at his interaction with Rhino and look at the emotion that is spewing from him here. Imagine if he did this against say James Storm? Like I said before it would be a pleasant luxury if A.J could pull this off when needed (which I am sure he can). He is a company man, he does what they say and most of the time he does it well.

    Why did he previous runs flop? Specifically his heel run 2010-2011, he was made to be a simple tool used to utilize Ric Flair. Now he is on his own, he has his anger at Kaz and Daniels to help him,and he doesn't need to rely on anyone else. But lets take a look at the biggest picture here: it's easier to be a heel in genreral. To make someone hate you especially in professional wrestling just attack a face, turn on someone and just let it flow on from there. You don't need great mic skills to do this, just look at Umaga, Jack Swagger, David Otunga, and even John Laurinitis. None of the are exponential great on the stick but their are still over. It's the actions that count for more than the talk when it comes to being a heel. A face on the other hand needs great mic skills to make the people love him, and care about him. Why do great faces start out as heels? Being a heel provides a bases of knowledge of how to make people care about you, something needed for both roles. A.J already being a good face just by that could in a much more feasible fashion pull off being a heel. We saw that when he was apart of the Christian Coalition with Tomko that he can be a lackey heel, and for the first part of his stint with Flair that he can get people to hate him, all the tools needed to make a good villain.
     
    #5
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  6. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    The thing here is, Paralyzer, is that it is exactly as you say. Attempts have been made to turn AJ into a heel before and they have been total failures. And there is no reason to suggest that an attempt to do it again now will yield any better a result. It's not like the previous attempt was particularly long ago; as you said, it was little over a year ago since he last made his futile effort at performing as a heel. What has changed in the last year or so to suggest that something which fell so flat before, will rise to a better result now? The thing is, there has not been anything to suggest that it will be any different this time.

    AJ Styles doesn't need a fresh direction. The man is approaching his ten year anniversary with the company on June 19th, and he is one of only four guys remaining in TNA Wrestling since it's inception. I don't think it is necessary to take a guy with this sort of tenure, and give him a fresh direction. I do agree he needs a firmer direction, but not a fresh direction which would send him off in a tangent which is destined for failure. I think it is time that they give AJ the direction he has earned and deserves, and a direction which will suit his wrestling style and persona more suitably than a random heel turn for freshness sake. I think they should give him a proper face push as one of the top guys in the professional wrestling organization to which he has dedicated his professional career. Now that's a fresh concept: taking a natural face who happens to be a TNA Original and a fan favorite, and pushing him in the main event in the company that he has been so loyal to since day one.

    As I said earlier, we are not that far removed from the days of Immortal/Fourtune. Even under the tutelage of Ric Flair, this storyline insofar as Styles is concerned fell flat. If Ric Flair was unable to nurture this into a success, I highly doubt that interactions with guys like Kazarian or Daniels will fare much better. You stated that you thought that Styles was a "mild success" in his heel run. I respectfully disagree. I would somewhat agree with you in that this "oh so casual face" character is a little beneath what he should be doing. However, the full out face push that I alluded to in the above paragraph would easily solve this problem. He should not be treated casually at this stage of his career by those in a position of authority, but a heel turn for heel turn's sake is not the answer.

    Your references to AJ Styles enjoying his heel run are questionable at best. I read the quotes and to me, it sounded like a loyal company guy toeing the company line more so than anything else. Of course if he is interviewed during such a heel run, he is going to state he enjoys it and agrees with it's direction, I would expect nothing less from the professional that Styles has always been and continues to be. However I would suggest that he has displayed far more passion and commitment for his face times than he has for his heel time, and the results would appear to concur with this.

    I find the suggestion that portraying a heel is easier than being a face is overly simplistic and flat out inaccurate. I think that would depend upon the individual in question. For someone like Rey Mysterio, playing a face is far easier than trying to force yourself to portray a heel which is totally foreign to your character, your style, and your history. For someone like Jeff Jarrett, the reverse would be true, as he is truly a natural heel. I maintain that AJ has a far easier time portraying a face than he does as a heel. His attempts at a heel character are forced and contrived, and do not connect with the audience in the same way his baby face efforts do. I think the idea that Styles should perform as a heel by annoying the fans with a wrestling character who has tremendous abilities but chooses not to share them with the world is absolutely ludicrous. This would maybe be a sound strategy for a new up and coming guy, but not from a guy who has been an original performer with the company. If a guy has the skill level of an AJ Styles, he should share it with the world and the company should exploit it and feature it. Having him keep his repertoire in check to draw cheap heel heat is an awful decision, one which ultimately culminate in failure.

    I'm not sure I agree that making the crowd hate you in and of itself makes you a good heel. Guys like Heath Slater are adept at drawing hatred from the crowd, but I'm not so sure that I would want to see AJ Styles follow in the footsteps and follow the strategy of a hack like this. He should be well beyond this, and should be given the opportunity to prove it to the world, as the ultimate baby face and face of the organization.

    I do agree with you that some people are overly critical of the mic skills of AJ Styles. While I don't find him overly adept on this aspect of his performance, he is able to convey emotion and passion into his character. But when he tries to do this as a heel, it comes across and phony and therefore ineffective for me. When he reaches deep inside of himself and draws out the emotion that he does when functioning in the face role, it seems far more plausible and therefore successful for me.

    I think you oversimplify the type of things that can make someone a successful heel who can be a focal point of the company. It takes a little more than simply "attacking a face". You mention such names as Umaga, Otuna, Swagger, and Laurinitis (a non-wrestler) as points of comparison. I would hope that TNA has higher aspirations for one of their Originals, who is consistently near PWI rankings as being one of the best at his craft. If the best that Styles can do, or the most that he can offer, is to portray someone like David freakin' Otunga, I think TNA's problems are more deeply seated than I thought. If AJ can continue as a face, but receive a proper push in the main event of the company that he has stuck with since day one, he can draw comparisons (in relative terms in the respective companies) to guys like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. I personally think he should hold comparable value to TNA that guys like Punk or Bryan hold for WWE. If they are only targeting Styles to be the next Swagger or Umaga, they are destined for underachieving from the onset, and are destined for failure.

    Simply put, it is not easier for AJ Styles to portray a heel rather than a face, in fact it is quite the opposite as both recent and longer history have displayed. He does not need a fresh direction, he simply needs a direction that can adequately exploit his natural abilities and allow him to thrive as the natural face that he is, rather than as the contrived heel that you suggest. Forget trying to change AJ Styles into a heel. Been there, done that, and it's been abysmal. Keep him moving forward as the natural face that he is. As I said before, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
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  7. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    The thing is, things are different this time, slightly different I might add. The last time he was heel, for the most part he was in the role of a lackey behind Immortal, Flair, and Fortune. Yes he was a world champion but Flair no matter what was always the front of Fortune,and I don't even need to explain how irrelevant he was in Immortal. What has changed in year you ask Habs? The fact that he can be his own heel, he doesn't need to simply be in the background like he was the previous duration of his heel run. Remember the video I posted? That's the kind of heel he can be once again if he is given the go to do so by turning. That my friend is something to suggest anything could be different now.

    I recall that he was the big face of the company in late 2009. He was preforming fantastic matches against Daniels, Joe, and Angle. Giving it to him now isn't exactly fresh, about 2 1/2 years isn't that long in wrestling years. Yes his heel run with Flair is more recent that his main event face tenure, but refer to what I said before about things being different. A heel turn would be fresh yes, but not random as you say because considering the position he is in now which is simply lingering in the upper mid-card could in some way act as a catalyst for a heel turn. A both firm, fresh, and more importantly than both reasonable and logical at the same time.


    I bolded that line because while it is very true, Ric Flair could have only made that storyline for A.J work if creative gave him something to to work with. He could have enhanced it making it better but if there was no good to start with how could that storyline have succeed? This time around TNA has an arguably better creative team, as shown by their recent improvements at the demotion of Russo. As seen by the interview with Mike Tenay he can show the same amount of passion as a heel with good material, as he can as a face with the rather "coasting along" run he has had recently since he broke away from Immortal.

    I think contrary to what I how I explained the "easy to be a heel situation" in a very simplistic manner, you have over complicated it. I wasn't saying the A,J Styles basing his whole gimmick off of limiting his move-set was the ideal heel character, I said it could be a very minor detail if one. Your arguments against it being easy to be a heel on the other hand I disagree with. To gain basic heat on yourself in a way that someone like Heath Slater has done is very feasible to anyone. Now basic heat and no other substance other than that won't get you far as so many in this industry have proven in the past. But like you said A.J should be able to showcase his all if a heel run were to come. That not only includes wrestling in ring skills but promo skills and the other intangibles the come in making a crowd care for you. They were forced and contrive in the past, but there is nothing indicating that it would be that way in the future. It's all a matter of the circumstances of his heel turn surroundings, who can he feud with? How good is the creative team? Or even how experienced he is at this point so that it could contribute into the making of a good heel character.

    As you said many times, or alluding to that; the thing is, he is AJ Styles, better that Otunga, and even Swagger at almost every aspect of pro wrestling. Going down the same road as them with the talent that he clearly is in possession of doesn't mean that he can't go higher than they have. Who's to say if it fails than don't try again? He has spent the large majority (not overwhelming majority) as a face and there is always room to try again. Again the circumstances are altered this time. His natural abilities may or may not change overtime, for better or goodness forbid for the worse, a heel turn can attribute to either direction greatly. He is one of the if not the best at his craft, which is being the mega-baby face (well at least on TNA by far) so why not try something else, fix your weaknesses is the term that can applied to this situation. It may have been abysmal in the past but you learn from your mistakes if you are that adept at you craft. A lot of this can be put into to making a much more natural heel.

    "If it ain't broke don't fix it" yes, but there is room for enhancement, which is what a heel turn could do. That's considering his past heel runs and how differently it could go now.
     
    #7
  8. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    You say things are different this time, but I'm not buying it at all. There have been several attempts over the years to utilize AJ Styles as a heel, and from where I'm sitting, all of them have been unsuccessful. The most recent attempt was his affiliation with Ric Flair. I think this was attempted because past efforts to employ him as a heel on his own were lackluster. So they attempted to associate him with a legend, a mouthpiece, a mentor, with a rich history of classic heel persona. The result? Lackluster again. And when he turned face again and turned his back on Flair, the fans were all over it. Don't try to convince me that things could be truly different this time. He's tried it solo and he's tried it with assistance. Same bottom line, because he is better suited in his natural face niche than he is when he's trying to force a heel character that he knows himself he is not well suited to. Check this out:

    www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/TNA_news_1/article_55043.shtml

    AJ Styles knew himself the Ric Flair association did not suit him. Sure he tried it, he tried to toe the company line and it flopped, like he knew it would. It didn't work in the past on his own, and it didn't work with Flair. And now, barely over a year later, it won't work again.


    I recall late 2009 as well, when Styles was excelling as a super face. And this was, in my opinion, the most successful time that TNA ever was (with the possible exception of right now). When the calendar flipped from 2009-2010, and the Hogan regime began, Styles got lost in the shuffle. Had they continued utilizing him as they had been, it's likely his excellence would have continued. They didn't and he got lost in the shuffle. To try to bring him back, they tried to force a heel turn on him, and it didn't work.

    You are confusing me a little bit here. Trying to go back to the face strategy of 2009 is not a fresh approach, whereas reverting back to heel status of 2010 is fresher? Yes I know, you say he can be a different sort of heel this time. As I mentioned above, that's been tried and hasn't flown.



    I don't care how good, or how different, the creative team is. If the guy is not able to portray an effective heel, it won't matter who is pulling the strings or writing the story lines. You cannot blame his failure on creative not having the right approach. Creative has tried a few times to turn him heel a few times, with the same end result each time.


    Check out the bolded statement, you are making my argument for me. He is one of the best at his craft, being the mega baby face, so what is there to gain by reinventing him? Rather than force an unnatural heel turn onto him, which has a history of failure associated with it, why not capitalize on his strengths and try to exploit them into a natural push as the face of the company that he should be?

    In conclusion, I see nothing to gain by attempting to turn AJ Styles heel. They have attempted to do so years ago with him flying on his own, and it has not worked out very well. As recently as a little over a year ago, they tried it again, and in my opinion, it failed even worse.

    When I think of AJ Styles, I think of a guy with the natural look of a baby face, a guy who wrestles a style of wrestling which is more conducive to that of a baby face, and a guy who does have sufficient mic skills to bring a passionate voice to a baby face character, but lacks the mic skills to consistently draw heel heat that a heel turn would require.

    When I think of a heel AJ Styles, I think of this:

    www.dailymotion.com/video/xdc7zy_christy-aj-styles-ric-flair

    Not a hard choice as to which one I would prefer, or which one has a greater likelihood of success. Granted there's no guarantee that past failures will necessarily mean future ones, but why take the chance? The risk far outweighs the reward.

    I don't accept the notion that AJ Styles can portray a heel more effectively than a face. I don't believe that a heel persona is easier for a guy like him to pull off. I do believe that TNA is in possession of a wrestler who some would argue is the most talented guy in professional wrestling today. They need to capitalize on that and give him a push in the main event of the company that he has been with since it's inception, as the ultimate baby face. They need to make him the John Cena of their organization. All a heel turn involving Styles will do is add to the reputation that TNA has created of random, ill thought out heel turns for no tangible benefit. AJ Styles does not need a heel turn and it will not benefit him or TNA Wrestling at this stage of the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
    #8
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  9. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    Do you know how much can change in a span of a little over a year in professional wrestling? Take a look at what the main event scene of TNA last year:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Current:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    That to goes show how much can change in little over a year. Now in Style's situation enough time has gone so much that he can re-invent himself as a full blown heel. If TNA's main event landscape can change that much in the same amount of time, A.J Style's ability to be a heel can as well, or at least the circumstances surrounding that are favorable to a heel A.J. Things indeed different now than they were last time as I have already stated a numerous amount of times. You can judge how it can go from past failures, but there is always the chance that he could be great in that role now, after all anything is possible and nothing is impossible.

    [​IMG]

    The real question here is what type of heel he can be if he were to turn again modern time. You've pretty much established that it shouldn't resemble anything relating to his run with Ric Flair, he was a heel before that though which may easily just as slipped many minds. Hell, remember this:

    [YOUTUBE]p7TnoRrJYSw[/YOUTUBE]

    A.J Styles I think is playing off a great heel character here, yes he is not on his own but it's not with Flair. Thus proving that he can be a relevant and intriguing heel, without Flair. It's been quite awhile since we have seen what he can do on his own as a heel because even in this video he is with the Angle Alliance but if he can do that as a new lackey for Angle, imagine what he can do when he is the upfront man of his own career during a turn. It seems a bit goofy there but that's what he is good when it comes to being a bad guy. I don't buy you saying that he can't play a good heel this day in age.





    Again, this is a different time. As I established earlier things can change a lot in a years span of time especially in the wrestling industry. Maybe Styles has a desire to be a heel now that he didn't before, maybe he wants to try once again. The creative or a good creative helps build a character, it's not the central responsibility to build one, that credit goes to the portrayed itself. Styles can do it this time and I am damn sure of that.




    All this is basically saying the same thing; You think that a heel character with a failed history cannot succeed if tried once again, even under different circumstances. I obviously disagree, like I said before if at first you don't succeed, try once again. A.J Styles does have the ability to be an effective heel, he is not the same as Mysterio, or Steamboat that are face for life characters (I recall that Steamboat never has ever even tried to be a heel). The way I see it is if you can be an extremely effective face, the next natural step to take is being an effective heel, sort of like Jericho a well rounded superstar capable of being put in any role the company wants him to and excelling in it. That in itself is what A.J has the potential to be become of they can try again at making him an effective heel. That doesn't mean that he can't ever be the John Cena of TNA and be face again after a prosperous heel run, but it's worth a try.

    Those are my closing statements.
     
    #9
    hatehabsforever and Dagger Dias like this.
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, replies in this debate have concluded.

    Judging may begin.
     
    #10
  11. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Ugh...let me quote CH David:

    That said, Paralyzer had the much easier on the eyes approach, earning his point here.

    Punctuality: hateshabs was generally faster so this would be his point.

    Informative: Paralyzer Z takes these points having produced some nice images, spoiler tags, quotes, links and a nice screen capture. hateshabs fell into the same trap as last time pretty much.

    Persuasion: It was a solid debate. hateshabs' point about AJ's prior runs being a total flop were good as were Paralyzer's on how this run would be different, but I ultimately enjoyed Paralyzer's arguments more and felt he was able to debunk hateshabs' theories and still manage to get his own point across.

    FunKay Scores It: Paralyzer Z: 4, hateshabsforever: 1
     
    #11
  12. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - I'm gonna go with Habs here. His opener was minus bold/italics :suspic: but overall he had nice spacing, and I definitely enjoyed his post that lacked quotes. Makes it cleaner.

    Point - hatehabsforever

    Punctuality - Paralyzer was a quicker draw.

    Point - Paralyzer Z

    Informative - Gonna go with Paralyzer. His images, links, and quotes worked well for him. Video got a chuckle out of me, which I'll expand on in my persuasion point. Habs had a link but it didn't go anywhere, as evidenced by Paralyzer's screenshot.

    Point - Paralyzer Z

    Persuasion - Two things that stood out to me. One, the video. Paralyzer I know it's meant to look like AJ is playing the suckup to Kurt and Karen. I just couldn't take him seriously in it though. It was five years ago though, so I'm letting it slide a bit. However, you also basically said that AJ is best at being the mega-babyface. If AJ works best as a babyface, wouldn't becoming heel be considered a step back? Once I read that my mind was made up for this.

    It's like D-Man has said, do not agree with your opponents argument!

    Points - hatehabsforever

    CH David scores this hatehabsforever 3, Paralyzer Z 2.
     
    #12
  13. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate - I have to agree with Funkay on this one. Although he had nice spacing in his opening post, I felt that Hatehabs could have used some title to each of his points and made it even better. I have to give the point to Paralyzer here because his posts were easier on the eyes.

    Punctuality -Hatehabs was faster in his replies. I saw that it took nearly 24 hrs for Paralyzer to respond at one point so he loses the point.

    Informative -Paralyzer really brought it here. Both men had some outside info that came into play, but I thought that Paralyzer made better use of it than his opponent.

    Persuasion -I thought hatehabs was able to really prove that AJ turning heel is not a good move. Paralyzer started off good but I don't think his rebuttals were as strong and I don't think he was able to successfully convince me that another heel turn for Styles would turn out good. Paralyzer you did good, but I think it was a little bit tougher on your side of the debate considering that in the past AJ being a heel has usually flopped. Maybe if it was a different wrestler you guys were debating then the outcome would have been different.

    Hatehabsforever: 3 points, Paralyzer: 2 points.
     
    #13
  14. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Paralyzer's posts are much neater and aren't paragraph blocks.

    Point - Paralyzer Z

    Punctuality: Paralyzer had a post that came almost 24 hours after one of hatehabs's.

    Point - Hatehabsforever

    Informative:Paralyzer brought a lot more information. He really did his research well.

    Point - Paralyzer Z

    Persuasion:Ugh... CH David summed up my exact thoughts. Why would anyone agree with their opponent's point in a debate? I will never understand this.

    Anyway... although good information was brought into this thing by both parties, hatehabsforever sold this one or me. And that point about AJ's effectiveness as a babyface turned the final corner, in my mind.

    Point - hathabsforever

    D-Man scores this hatehabsforever 3, Paralyzer Z 2.
     
    #14
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    We have our first TIE of the tournament!!

    Now, according to the rules that I set, if this happened, I would be the deciding vote. Now, this is a unique situation since Nate has not been able to judge this debate. So, we'll have to treat this debate as if it were tied before the final judging needed to happen. Since I have already scored this debate, my decision will have to be the final say.

    Therefore, in the closest match of the tournament thus far, congratulations to hatehabsforever who barely edges Paralyzer Z due to a tie-breaking vote. He will move onto Loser's bracket #19 to face Pancake.

    Unfortunately, Paralyzer Z, you have been eliminated from this year's tournament. You've done a tremendous job up until this point and I thank you for your participation and dedication this year.
     
    #15
  16. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
    Staff Member Super Moderator

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    In this turn of events where D-Man had to fill in for Nate as the final judge, we ended up with a tie and there will be no ties in this tournament. Normally D-Man himself has the final say, but he already had to fill in for a judge. As the section mod I will now break the tie. Here we go:


    Clarity: Paralyzer Z. I especially liked his opening post, which had a more professional appearance with use of underlined font and better organization.

    Punctuality: hatehabsforever. His responses generally came faster. I took a close look at the time that had elapsed in between each response and what hurt Paralyzer Z here like others pointed out, was in fact the post where nearly a full day had passed.

    Informative: Paralyzer Z. I liked that he used more images and videos to add more fuel to his statements.

    Persuasion: hatehabsforever. I too disagree with the idea of agreeing with your opponent. The point of a debate is to prove that your side is correct.

    I scored it as: Paralyzer Z receiving 2 points and hatehabsforever receiving 3.

    We already had a tie in place and habs won by one vote in the tie-breaking judging. Therefore hatehabsforever is the winner in what will surely end up being the closest debate in this year's league. He faces Pancake next round and sadly Paralyzer Z is eliminated. A strong showing by both of you, and congrats on a well fought battle! :)
     
    #16
  17. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Thank you, Dagger and congratulations to hatehabsforever!!
     
    #17
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