Knocked down to Build back up

[deadtaker]

With WZ reporting why WWE had Randy Orton win MitB was because nobody expected it and that having him lose was to build him back up with the briefcase. Why would you want to have a guy be in the championship mix that has been knocked down so much.

Randy Orton is not the only guy this happens to. Dolph Ziggler consistently lost leading up to winning the WHC. It was said to give him potential challengers to the title.

It makes the Championship look weak if you have guys knocked down to much. Its a reason why there are no real main eventer besides Cena and Punk. They don't lose consistently then get thrown into the main events

If they lose clean in undercard matches what will make them believable as challengers for the belt. The fact that MitB winners win in cheap ways after the champion is beaten also makes the belt look worse.

Also what makes WWE believe they can build Orton back up? Who is he going to beat to get back up? Is he going to look strong having squash matches against nobodies. Who is there to feud with to make him look strong?

This is the problem with WWE you can keep knocking and building guys up or trading wins. You don't have guys who realistically look like threatening challengers.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Eventually it gets tiring and boring...but it works.

WWE tries to get the fans to be disinterested in someone then BAM! something happens that makes the fans go crazy. Whether it's saving another face or turning heel, fans eat it up.

The problem with WWE is that they use this device too much. It's their go to if someone isn't getting over. They just did it with Mark Henry! On next week's RAW they will do it with Big Show. Big show was a waste of roster space before he left. Fans weren't interested in him anymore (some fans are beyond interested in him) and he went away for the time. Now when his music hits on Monday that place will explode.

BUT...this doesn't always work. Look at Miz. Im a fan through and through, but what they did (and are doing) with his face turn has caused fans to look away. Even Albert couldn't be saved as his turn from Tensai to Sweet-T.

Your point about Orton being built back up is simple...it's about the challenge. Remember, this is FAKE WRESTLING so they can do what they want. Having Orton lose over and over again makes him LOOK weak and not a credible challenger, even with the MITB case. BUT, you put him through enough wins as a heel, suddenly he is looking better and stronger than ever. Now, it doesn't matter who he faces.

Having a title means your are THE GUY to beat. It doesn't matter how it's done. The hardcore title used to be able to be defended anywhere. Guys could attack at anytime. If you won, you were better than the guy who held it. That stands true for ALL titles.

 

[JoeMallard]

He wants all the fans behind him , so when he turns heel, no one will see it coming. That's what i think the point is of having him lose. The mitb briefcase can help him turn heel when he cashes in on a victorious Daniel Bryan at Summerslam.

 

[H33LTurn]

I dont know how accurate this report is but from what I gather it was time for Orton to put some people over. Since his last run as World Heavyweight Champion, Orton has had no major rivalries or character changes. That down time was a perfect opportunity for Orton to work with some of the younger talent like he did. A heel turn was long overdue and I just think WWE found the perfect opportunity to make it happen. With a WWE title scene dominated by mostly faces, chances are Orton will cash in on Daniel Bryan or Cena, which will really bring him back up from the slump he was in. I think Orton draws better during the summer months right down to the end of December so thats also a factor to take into consideration. As far as Ziggler goes, he's a glorified midcarder. I know thats going to upset some people but its the truth. He's great in the ring but not so great on the mic and whenever the US title is on him he makes the whole division far more interesting. The sooner WWE realizes this and use him to his full potential, the sooner Ziggler will stop having these lackluster world title chases.

 

[theHeadliner]

They kind of use this approach with Bret Hart thru the early 90s, especially after he lost the belt to Yoko in 1993.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

This always felt like a bunch of counter-intuitive sillyness to me. Its more than ok for him to get some guys over for a while, but it feels like it has been literally a couple years since he was invoved in anything meaningful. Orton has the crowd connection and the abiity to be a top 3 megastar in a WWE that is starving for them, really no reason to book him into the ground.

When the push starts, NO ONE thinks BACK and is like "Whoa, he is doing good now, after he sucked for so long!! Huzzah!!"

If anything, it feels stupid, and is doomed to fail when you do things that way. Say hello to MVP (if you can find him) and Jack Swagger.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Like Jericho and Big Show, Orton has the ability to take some loses and quickly move back to the top. He has the history, look, and charisma to be taken seriously when WWE needs him to be taken seriously. Some guys can't do this. Jack Swagger to me is ultimate example of a guy that looks so bad when he loses that it is easy for me to write him off before he has a push that starts going.

Plus MitB winners are not necessarily supposed to look that strong. Especially when they are heels. They basically win one quirky match that pushes them to a cheapish title win. I'm not sure if Orton will go that route but we've seen it time and again.

Also remember that WWE isn't trying to sell themselves to the consistent viewer that has encyclopedic knowledge of all of the wins and losses. Those people watch regardless. They need to sell to the casual/on the fence fans that probably have no clue or can't remember how victorious Orton has been. They just know he's a popular veteran, who is over, and now has the ability to snatch the title at any moment.

 

[deadtaker]

The difference between Jericho and Orton is that Jericho matches are actually great that nobody remembers that he lost. It is the point that very few can pull off a loss or losing streak and come off looking good.

 

[EastCoastFan]

Some guys are over enough that they can lose and still have the crowd love or hate them. Randy is one of those guys who can lose matches for a while and not lose his spot in the pecking order. When a guy is in the top tier for a while, sooner of later he has to fall and give someone else a chance, then fight his way back up.

One of the many things that killed WCW was the same set of guys were always in the main event and people got sick of them. Once WCW caught on and tried to build new stars, it was too little too late. The ship was already taking on water.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If it's accurate, then I can sort of understand it being done in Orton's situation. Orton's 2nd violation of the Wellness Policy came about roughly 13.5 months ago and has been punished. Several officials, reportedly, wanted Orton fired and I can sort of see why. After all, WWE made Orton one of the top stars on the roster with consistently strong pushes into the main event scene. However, WWE didn't bury or fire Orton as they may have done with most other members of the roster because he's simply too valuable of a commodity. He's been in WWE for over a decade now and he remains one of the most consistently over wrestlers on the roster. There's simply too much money in Orton to bury him. However, over the past couple of years, it's pretty obvious that Orton hasn't been booked anywhere close to the same level he once was. I think that's partially due to not only violating the Wellness Policy but, allegedly, he's said to have a pretty shitty attitude at times. For instance, Orton has been known to make unflattering comments about any number of Divas on the roster. A year or two back, he was doing a radio interview and basically called Kelly Kelly a **** after saying that he could name 10 guys off the top of his head that she's slept with. It got so bad at one point, this has been several years back, that he was actually suspended. Some mistakenly believed that Orton was suspended for violating the Wellness Policy for the 2nd time then, but it wasn't the case.

Like VinnieSunshine pointed out, the strategy of knocking someone down to build them back up is something that often works. He's also correct in pointing out that WWE has done this too frequently. As a result, it can definitely get old and more than a little frustrating, especially when it's obvious that the wrestler in question has a great deal of talent. After all, look at the way poor Wade Barrett has been treated since the Raw after the Royal Rumble. They've buried him so deep over the last 6 months that Superman wouldn't be able to hear Barrett screaming at the top of his lungs.

Off the top of my head, I think the wrestler that this strategy has benefitted the most has been Daniel Bryan. When he won MITB in 2011, he went on sort of a losing streak as a means of WWE building him as an underdog. It did get a little frustrating at times but, frankly, it worked. When Bryan cashed in and ultimately won the WHC, people went nuts. He was already getting pretty over by that time with his slow heel turn, but his career just took off and has only continued to gain momentum after he lost the title to Sheamus at WM 28. When they teamed him with Kane late last year and over the course of their partnership, they've had their share of goofy moments but, surprise surprise, it only made people all the more interested in them whereas most other guys would have flat out bombed. Now, they've been doing the whole "weak link" angle for the past several months with him initially losing some matches. As a result, Bryan has become the hottest star on the WWE roster. Whether he's a face or a heel, people WANT to care about Bryan and go nuts for everything he does. I think one reason for that success is that WWE didn't let the strategy drag on for months & months on end.

 

[Mustang Sally]

It makes the Championship look weak if you have guys knocked down to much.

It's a valid point, but it helps to remember that these performers aren't actually involved in competition; it's more a cooperative effort among a large group of people. Unlike legitimate sporting events in which you're paid to make your opponent look bad, the essence of pro wrestling is to make your enemy look good......selling his offense and trying to ensure a smooth flow to the match by giving as much as you take.

As someone else in this topic said, Randy Orton was probably long overdue to make others look good. Whether management thought he didn't have the charisma necessary to maintain his run at the top.....or whether he didn't sell well enough in the past.... or whether his disciplinary problems caused him to fall back in with the rest of the pack, we finally got to see Randy become vulnerable to the same forces everyone else has to face.

I think it's a good thing; he's done well as a member of the team, rather than as a force by himself. I have no idea what he actually thinks about it all, but he's performing as directed, so it's all good. As for the notion that he now looks "weaker" as a championship contender......I don't think so. He's established enough of a rep for himself that his superior in-ring work will always keep him on the verge on contending for the big prize.

Eventually, everybody loses and often looks weak doing it. This applies to "real" sports, too. Often, watching performers look more human is an asset.....advancing the notion that looking vulnerable in the short run often helps build a character for the long haul.

 

[IT Factor]

Randy Orton is one of those guys that "net fans" love to hate on. Honestly, he is one of the most consistent performers in WWE right now. He gets strong fan reactions and has great matches with just about anybody he works with. He has had good matches with everyone from Mark Henry to Daniel Bryan which says a lot about he versatility as a WWE Superstar. I have never been a fan of knocking people down and then building them back up. Orton is a top draw and he should be used as such as long as he's as popular as he is. Once that fails to be the case, then sticking him below the main event makes sense. There is a reason why each time WWE knocks Orton back down, he rises back up because he is one of the best.

 

[JBK2008]

Trading wins and losses never helps. Cena will always win and Punk wins most of the time but after that it's win/loss, win/loss with most of these superstars. In the 80's and 90's, the face would win most of the time and then when a belt is in the line or the stakes are taken to the next level, the heel would steal the win.

If Orton wants to be "built" back up, just have him beat EVERYONE. No losses. Have him win, then remind everyone he can cash in at anytime. Even tease it sometimes during Cena's matches. Don't have him lose a lot and then cash in all of a sudden.