KB"s Wrestler Challenge

[klunderbunker]

This is a new thing I thought I'd try out and depending on how it goes, I'd like to make it a weekly or every other week thing.

Last night I was watching an old Raw match between the Quebeccers and Razor Ramon/1-2-3 Kid. The Quebeccers were managed by Johnny Polo who became known later on as Raven. At one point, Razor chases Polo and this got me to thining: Of those two, who is the bigger star, Razor, or Raven? Interpret this however you'd like: Who would likely win in a big match between the two, who has been more influential, who has been more successful, who do you like more, whatever you'd like.

To being with, we have Raven. He started out as an annoying manager/commentator then had one of the biggest gimmick changes of all time and turned into Raven. He took over ECW until going to one of the big companies where he had a decent run, went back to ECW, had a cup of coffee in WWE and then won the TNA title.

On the other hand we have Scott Hall. Started in WCW where he did next to nothing, then became the king of the midcard in WWF. His biggest break came when he strolled onto Nitro and started the biggest storyline of all time. He again never really jumped to the main event full time but was always one of the more noteworthy stars around. After returning to WWE and doing very little of note he went to TNA and basically disappeared from the mainstream.


With that being said, who do you give the edge to? As I said, judge this however you would like. Who would be booked to win in a big match, who had the bigger impact, who was more successful, whatever measure you'd like. Depending on how this goes, maybe I'll make this a usual thing. If not, then hope it makes you think a bit.

 

[Beeyond_Good_and_Evil]

I prefer Ramon but I think Raven was more influential because of what he meant to ECW kinda being the face of that company. The passion those guys showed was unparallelled and Raven epitimized that. Didn't Raven achieve success in WCW too?

 

[klunderbunker]

Raven had a bit of success but I wouldn't call him successful. He lead the flock and won the US title, which he lost to Goldberg the next day. He wasn't ever really a big deal there though and was the only person that took Bischoff up on his offer for a release.

My vote does go to Raven though. While Ramon had more success on a bigger stage, it always seemed that he was happy with being a high upper card worker. The only two times I ever remember him getting world title shots were in matches where it seemed as if they were simply to give the champion a win under their belts: vs. Hart at RR 93 and vs. Sting at Souled Out 98. Raven on the other hand was the biggest deal in ECW for his entire first run there. No one could touch him and his feud with Dreamer was great. His crucifixion of Sandman was later immitated by Undertaker and the Ministry. Also to have gone through his prime and still win a world title in the second biggest company in the world with TNA is impressive to me. Hall was very good, but never hit the big time like I always thought he was capable of doing.

 

[Big Fella]

Scott Hall and its not really even close.

Raven may have been one of the guys that helped put ECW on the map, but both Funk and Shane Douglas were just as much if not more influential in the early days of WCW.

From 92 on Scott Hall was near the top of the card in each of the big two. In many peoples eyes he remained the face of the nWo because he was the first to appear on WCW programming. He played a huge role in the nWo which is a far bigger and more popular angle than anything Raven ever did.

Raven had some success in both of the big two but was never viewed as a main-event guy. Hall was a main event draw without the belt because he didn't need it to get over.

 

[Beeyond_Good_and_Evil]

I wouldn't say its not even close bc while i voted for hall I think Raven was more important to wrestling. Hall competed in the first ever televised ladder match. He is one of the greatest IC champs ever. He coulda been World champ especially in WCW if he hadn't had an addiction problem. But Raven put ECW on the map he spearheaded a revolution a revolution of extreme. He crucified Sandman and had one of the best feuds ever with dreamer in my opinion. Raven was on top of the world and had a cult following bc of ECW. He brought that cult following to TNA and won the second KOTM match which I thought was one of the best TNA matches if not at least the best KOTM match ever. and yeah he won the WCW us and WWF hardcore titles so yeah I give raven the slight edge. By the way KB keep doing this its awesome.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

I picked Raven. He had a cult like following in ECW and he achieved moderate success in WCW and WWE. In TNA he was a huge star who unfortunatly wasn't used properly.

I would have picked Hall but he had a major addiction problem. That shouldn't be a factor but it always is when you're in the Public Eye. Yeah he had an EPIC ladder match with HBK but IMO his addiction overshadowed what he accomplished in the ring.

Keep it going KB.

 

[klunderbunker]

I've already got the next two in mind.

I don't think I'd say Hall was the bigger by far if at all. Yes he was in the ladder match, but Shawn was the clearcut star of it. Hall's most famous moment is walking out on Nitro and ushering in the NWO, and while he was one of the original three he was clearly the lowest of them. Both of these two have had very well established addiction problems so I can't really think that can be used against either of them. Hall and Raven made contributions to their companies, but I think Raven just edges Hall out as he was the top guy in his company while Hall, while big in his own right, was always kind of on the side of the main stars.

 

[Miko]

Damn this is a tough choice.

I like both guys, I'd have to give the edge to (shit I might as well flip a coin) Hall. . . . no Raven. . . . No Hall because of the NWO, he along with Hogan and Nash formed the maybe the greatest stable ever, well in the early days anyway and even if you only remember them from their WWE stint they were still a good stable.

He was always like you said on the uppercard, and is probably just about a more recognised face in wrestling than Raven. I also respect the fact that he didnt use his connections to get a World Title Run.

EDIT - No wait, I think its Raven because of his success in ECW, he may not have been that big in the other companies but he was almost godlike in ECW. Not to mention the fact that he has won a TNA World title and whatever anyone thinks of that title its been held by the likes of Kurt Angle and Sting

Yeah, I think thats right

 

[TheOneBigWill]

My pick is going to Raven.

Raven was easily one of my Top 3 all-time favorite wrestlers to watch. I don't discount his lack of in-ring ability because he wasn't a ring general by any means but he wasn't made to be either. Raven was the Albert Einstein of professional Wrestling because of how great he was on the mic and how much that alone could carry him to great success.

When you step back and look at Raven, he did what very few individuals including the likes of John Cena, The Rock, Steve Austin & even Shawn Michaels can NOT do.. and that's make a group of horrible wrestlers and crappy overall talent.. mean something. I know it's laughable, but the fact is it takes a great deal of talent to make people actually give a shit to see that waste of space on television, weekly.. and the Flock in W.C.W. & the Nest in E.C.W. had a HUGE cult following. Only Hulk Hogan has really done something similar when he lead the n.W.o. with several horrible mid-card talents.

Raven was a former E.C.W. Champion, and while his United States reign lasted only one night, it was the mere fact that a guy like Bill Goldberg needed the midcard title more so to get over than Raven did in keeping it. (If you truly think about it, Championships are mainly used to get wrestlers over.)

On the flip side, Scott Hall had a couple big time Championship matches against Bret Hart and Sting, but neither are going to be forever remembered by millions. Unlike Raven, Scott Hall has never been a World Heavyweight Champion in one of the top 3 (former, anyways) companies.

Hall's greatest success in my opinion came off a Ladder match in which Shawn Michaels carried him. And a faction's up-rising in which it's arguable that Hulk Hogan isn't the sole savior of.

So in looking side by side at the two, Raven easily wins hands down.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Ok, Firstly. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PEOPLE SMOKING.

Scott Hall means more to wrestling than Raven ever will. He was in two of the best ladder matches of all time. He will go down as one of the best Intercontinental champions of all time, back when that title meant something. He then was involved in the Curtain Call at the Garden. Then after that he went to WCW and on his first night there made such an impact that he made WCW must see television. People literally thought Hall went to WCW to kill it. Then the next week when Nash came on people no longer thought it, they were pretty much convinced. He then went on to become apart of one of the biggest factions EVER. You guys might have heard about it. It was called the NWO. Yes, his life went into a tailspin and it affected his career greatly. But what he did in those 5 or 6 years is more important than what raven did in his whole fucking career.

Raven held the world title in an independent organization. The only thing I remember him for is crucifying the Sandman. (which was totally dispicable) Oh yeah, he was also TNA champ for like a month too.

So lets see...

Hall:

• Two of the best ladder matches in history
• The Kliq
• Madison Square Garden Curtain Call
• Showing up on Nitro unannounced
• The NWO

Raven:

• World Champ in an Indy fed.
• Crucifying Sandman
• TNA Champ for a month

Yeah looking at that it's pretty obvious who has made the bigger impact. That man is Scott Hall. Hall would have went over in a match between the two, and he was more successful.

 

[Father:_Polley]

So what? Raven was a star in ECW. That seems to automatically make him a lock as a favourite in any contest. It's like saying Michael Clements would be an MVP of a Little League team. Why? Because he had no competition. The reason the Flock worked in ECW was because Raven could work some aspect of psychology into the build up. Sandman, Dreamer, Sabu...they were there to hit people with canes, barbed wire and chairs. Raven did the same thing only with a little bit more behind the feuds story wise.

What's the reason Serotonin failed in TNA? Not because the superstars were poor, because as Will has already pointed out, Raven was able to 'a group of horrible wrestlers and crappy overall talent.. mean something'. Not because of the smark fans having seen it before - they loved it twice, why not the third from the psychology master. The reason it failed in TNA, is because...are you ready...lean in close so you can hear... Raven wasn't actually that good! Did it ever occur to anyone Raven looked good out of the group because of the reason stated above, namely he was surrounded by poor talent.

When push came to shove, Raven was little more than an average sized fish in a very small pond of psychology talent in ECW.

Scott Hall, while I've never been a big fan of his, had that natural cockiness about him. The guy oozed disdain and it rubbed off. The man was part of the original NWO. Would he have been there if he couldn't carry it? Would him walking out to go to WCW have mattered if he didn't? I think not. Raven may be remembered for crucifying the Sandman...big deal. Scott Hall put on the match that many credit as making HBK's path to stardom...and he won it.

It doesn't matter that he never got beyond mid-card title level, Scott Hall is part of history in the big 2 companies, while Raven flopped in both and only lasted in his comfort zone of weapons and poor opponents

 

[Shocky]

While I think that Raven has a much more loyal and rabid fan base, some would say cultlike, his list of credentials don't match up to Scott Halls, and I'm a Raven fan, moreso then Ramon.

You have to give Raven credit, he went from being Johnny Polo in 1994, and recreated himself into something people got behind big time by 1997. When he showed up on WCW, it was a big deal, and people knew he was. Something that was quite an accomplishment for an ECW guy.

Raven is easily the 2nd biggest name to come from ECW, behind only RVD. He had success in ECW and TNA as both companies world champion, and he had a pretty respectful run as US champion, but after that, nothing much.

Hall had huge mid-upper card success in both WCW and the WWF. Arguably he's one of the best IC champions of all time, and arguably he was in one of the top 5 tag teams of the 90's.

It all depends on how you measure it, a guy that was the head of two federations that average 1000 people a night, or a guy that was the lead in to the main events at events running 10,000 strong.

 

[jmt225]

My answer would have to be Raven. I am a very dedicated, longtime Raven fan. I have been since I first saw him a magazine in 1996. Within no time, he became my one of my favorite wrestlers to watch. I was 11 years old, and here's this wrestler that dresses so originally and different, and is one of the most sadistic and violent men in the sport. Of course I was drawn to that.

I have been disappointed with the direction his career has taken since his initial departure from ECW in 1997. He did not recieve the opportunities that he rightfully deserved. WCW did way more with him than WWF/WWE, but even they came up short. In WCW, Raven showed that not only could he carry a smaller company, like ECW, on his back, but he could also play a significant role on a much larger level as well, yet they (Hulk Hogan in particular) held him back. When he returned to ECW, I was very pleased. It was the second coming, but ECW during this period was treating its legends as washed up hasbeens. In other words, ECW dropped the ball with the acquisition of Raven in 1999. A beautiful feud seemed to be brewing between Raven and Dreamer, this time with a new twist, but it was dropped. So he just existed for a while longer, doing nothing really until leaving for the WWF/WWE. Of course, they completely wasted what could have potentially been one of the greatest heels in WWF history. He wallowed at the depths of obscurity for a couple of years before leaving. Truly a shame...

Then when he went to NWA-TNA, he seemed to have been reborn. A process which began taking shape in WWE, but was never utilized. Raven was probably more interesting then he had been in years (not to say that he wasn't interesting in WCW or WWE, just that he was not given the opportunity to showcase that talent) because NWA-TNA was putting him in the spotlight and putting him in the main event. Not only that, but his feud with CM Punk in Ring of Honor ranks VERY high in my book in my favorite feuds of all time. So he's in ROH having a tremendous feud with Punk, and in TNA creating awesome storylines with S.E.X and down the line, The Gathering. However, once Russo got religious and Feinstein had that incident, Raven's career went downhill. Sure, every now and then he would do something special (like his feud with Sabu), but TNA was making the same mistake as WWE and WCW. Then, out of no where, Raven becomes NWA Champion. His fire was relit, and he was putting on great matches and storylines for a good amount of time. As a Raven fan, I'm esstatic during his run as TNA Champion. I ordered every pay-per-view, and just enjoyed the run as much as I could before it ended, because deep down I knew it was his last good run. Unfortunetly, I was right. He loses the belt in the most fucked up way, and he hasn't been right ever since. However, that doesn't take away his accomplishments and how big of a fan I will ALWAYS be of his.

Hogan is the biggest draw, while Bret Hart or Chris Benoit or Kurt Angle may be the best technical wrestlers ever in the business, but technical ability combined with personality, the masterful art of storytelling... basicly the overall package, makes Raven, in my eyes, one of the greatest workers of all time.

 

[Uncle Phatso]

This is a very hard one for me. I love both raven and scott hall so damn much. Both very talented in there own respects. I still whatch raven on Jcw's Slam tv, and when scott hall comes in on any show. Theres sure to be at least one pop from me.

Scott hall as razor , was awsome. He was sort of that cocky slimeball we all know. We have one in our town. One that we want to beat the shit out of so bad. But never got the balls to. Argualby one of the people who jumpstarted Hbk's carrier, He was damn good with his stint as ic champ. Damn good. Come now to Wcw, Ahhh the outsiders. The memorys come sliding back to mind. Big sexy and razor, IN A TAG TEAM. Damn what more could A boy wish for. Heel or face, these guys were allways a draw in wcw. 2 powerhouses in one team. Damn they were good. Now enter NWO, by gob the hulkster big sexy and kevin. Countless spinoffs? Damn thoes were good times. The one thing that I did'nt like in wcw, was when they started to use scotts drinking problem as a gimmic of sorts. I cant really remember what match it was, But there were two rings and scott came out drinking scotch, I believe. That was the start of the fall for him. After that everything went downhill for him.

But as a bigger draw, I would say scott, Razor, nwo, The kliq, Jwo. The names go On.

Raven sort of has a bigger fan base thats a hell of a lot more loyal. He's a damn good dude in ring. Well was, But to me My dude is scott hall.