Justin Roberts And The Hazing Of Talent

Discussion in 'Wrestling Discussion' started by Low_Ki, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. Low_Ki

    Low_Ki Former WZCW Tag Team Champion

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    So to prerequisite. I was bore before certain people took offensive to every fart and cough that goes on across the realms of social media/life.

    I'm currently in the midst of reading Just Roberts book on his time within the walls of the WWE. In it, he talks at length about the troubles he had on international tours with the likes of JBL and Chris Benoit, who were both on Smackdown at the time.

    They allegedly berated him on the tour bus, threw his luggage off the bus, and at one point in the Far East, JBL allegedly had both buses stopped on the side of the road (one 'face' bus, one 'heel' bus) and made Roberts transport his gear from the face bus to the heel bus, and continued their verbal assault on him all the way to the hotel.

    Further instances include alleged public degradation from the likes of Triple H, who I thought in my own personal opinion would have been a little more professional given his time in the business by that point (mid-2000's).

    Reading this evoked anger from me. I can't explain why. We all know JBL was a complete and utter jizz stain of a human being from many accounts, and Hunter at the time was the bosses son-in-law so I guess he figured he could get away with anything.

    The question, I guess is this. I get that hazing was a part of the business for a long time, but should that kind of bullying have been tolerated in the middle of the 2000's? The guy was a ring announcer, and whilst I'm all for understanding that there are two sides to every story, I'm veering towards believing Robert's statement on things.

    Do you believe Roberts account of how he was treated? How would you handle that level of treatment in a workplace like the WWE?
     
  2. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    The WWE is most concerned with its public reputation than anything, and this often seems to cause them to forget that they live in the Information Age. The best way for them to prevent horrific stories of hazing to go viral is to teach its staff not to behave like deranged lunatics.

    Benoit had always been one of those curmudgeons that felt that he deserved more than he ever got, and would often take out his rage on the younger athletes. If he had an excuse to berate and humiliate someone, he would take it. People like Stone Cold, Bret Hart, and The Undertaker were aware of it but did nothing. What's most amazing is that they all kept a straight face when they acted as if they didn't foresee Chris' murder suicide involving his family. If you see a sadistic sociopath emotionally terrorizing other people, step in and let them know that their behavior is unacceptable. Maybe get them the help that they obviously need, instead of letting them take chair shots to the back of the head and letting them perform headbutts off the top rope.

    JBL literally didn't know that he was alive unless he was assassinating the character of someone else. The Undertaker enabled him, and in turn JBL enabled Bob Holly. If you look into any report of hazing within the WWE, it inevitably leads back to JBL in some way. He only ever got his run with the world title because HHH didn't want to work on Tuesday, and he only carried the belt for as long as he did because The Undertaker felt sorry for him. His tag team with Farooq was neat, but hardly stands as one of Farooq's better tag teams or as a better example of Ron Simmons' prowrestling career in general. JBL went on to try to portray himself as a James Lipton-esque interviewer on the WWE Network, and that failed more miserably than his career as a prowrestler.

    HHH was likely still going through his phase where everyone worth their salt in the prowrestling industry saw him as a great sidekick, but not having capability on par with the likes of The Rock, Brock Lesnar, or The Undertaker. HHH, for my money, could never remain popular on his own. He had a great return after his quad injury, but few if any people still paid attention to him after he subsequently dropped the undisputed championship to Hogan. He's done great things as a manager and as the guy who builds bridges between the WWE and people who Vince had previously alienated with his own stupidity. Back when HHH was struggling for relevance as DX was becoming stale, it wouldn't surprise me that he was taking liberties with individuals that actually had natural talent.

    From what I can tell, all three men were very insecure with themselves at the time and it's very likely that they abused Justin Roberts because they saw him as an easy target. Chris Benoit's name is now a metaphor for the sorriest scum that has ever lived, JBL can't show his face on a prowrestling card without being laughed at, and HHH is a much better behind the scenes guy than anything else. Given time, bullies fail to live up to their own standards.
     
  3. jpickens

    jpickens Pre-Show Stalwart

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    It's called karma and it's a bitch.
     
  4. mariejustice54

    mariejustice54 Dark Match Jobber

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    Really?
     
  5. FromGlasgowScotland

    FromGlasgowScotland Dark Match Winner

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    I've never met the guy so I don't know if it's harmless hazing or actual bullying, I've only heard rumours of mainly Bradshaw and Bob Holly from this era never heard the HHH or Benoit involvement before, If true it's s**** as I can't stand bullies, I know Joey Styles didn't put up with it from Bradshaw. It's a pity he didn't try it on with someone like Lesnar or Angle instead of going after small announcers.
     
  6. The Scarred One

    The Scarred One The Greatest of All Time

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    That's the thing about bullies. They always go for the easy targets. If Bradshaw tried that shit with Lesnar, Lesnar would've ripped his fucking head off. Another thing about bullies is that they have insecurities about them. They only feel better when they make others miserable.

    Such as the cases with Benoit and Bradshaw. No one can deny that Benoit was phenomenal as an in-ring performer. He was able to get over on his talent alone as he was never the most charismatic guy on the mic. But aside from his run with the World Heavyweight Title in 2004, Benoit was never going to be a permanent fixture in the main event. Bradshaw got lucky in 2004 as Lesnar had left and Triple H apparently refused to work Tuesdays. If Lesnar had stayed or Triple did decide to work SmackDown, there's no way Bradshaw would've gotten the main event run he did. After his run ended the next year, he was pretty much an upper midcarder who would often flirt with the main event picture. But like Benoit, he was never a permanent fixture in the main event scene. I would think that bitterness would make them lash out at the younger guys who would eventually be given those opportunities. It's just like that old territory mentality of how the veterans never wanted to help the younger guys as they would probably end up losing their spots to them.

    The thing with Triple H does surprise me if its true. By that point, he had established himself as a top guy. He was cemented in the main event picture. But I guess there was still that insecurity about himself as he was never going to be at the level of a Steve Austin, Rock or John Cena. To borrow something that Chris Jericho said, he was the George Harrison of that era. Harrison was a truly gifted singer/songwriter who many felt was underrated. The problem was that he had been part of a band that included John Lennon and Paul McCartney, two of the greatest, if not the greatest, singer/songwriters of all time. So it didn't matter what success Harrison had, he was never going to match what Lennon and McCartney would do. But Triple H is in a better position now that he's front office now and he can see the bigger picture.

    But it mostly stems from insecurity and jealousy. These veterans who most like would never get certain opportunities for one reason or another lash out at the younger guys who do. Because the more TV time the younger guys get, the less the veterans get. But not every guy is going to be a complete pushover, so they go after the easy targets who either a) are incapable of retaliating due to lack or size or strength or b) afraid to retaliate because of their position on the card.

    It's disgusting to hear about this sort of thing. These are grown men. You think they would know better. But it just goes to show you that even though you get older, you don't necessarily get wiser.
     
  7. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The hazing of new wrestlers and talent is a necessary part of the business. It weeds out those who don't have what it takes to succeed and toughens up the ones who do. It sickens me when I hear about people being coddled for "anxiety" and needing "safe spaces". If you can't handle life, that's YOUR problem.

    The Miz is a prime example of why hazing is a good thing. He didn't come from a wrestling background, and a lot of guys in the back thought he wanted to use WWE to improve his show business career. His gear was tossed in the trash, he was thrown out of the wrestler's locker room, and forced to dress in the hallway. The Miz EARNED the respect of the locker room leaders by busting his ass night in and night out, dedicating his life to the business, and drastically improving his skills. He's now one of the most respected veterans in the business and a locker room leader himself.
     
  8. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You have such a false view on wrestling history, it's literally laughable.
     
  9. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    That's pretty much it, in a nutshell, Hazing was pretty much how wrestlers took some of the steam off. It never was malicious or anything like that, it was just a way for them to have fun and see if the new guy was though enough to be a pro wrestlers.

    Pretty much everybody in the wrestling business went through it at one point of another, go talk to Ric Flair, Shawn micheals, Sting, Hulk Hogan, John cena or any other guys that became stars in the past 30 or 40 years. That was the way of the business and everybody went through it. Again like mention above, The miz is the best example of somebody that was haze for a reason. The guy came from the reality show business and when he first started on the main roster, they haze him for a while to see if he was there for the right reason and Miz took it and went on to prove to them that he was there for the love of the business and you look at him not, he's one of the biggest star in wwe and he's still going strong.

    Justin talks about this in his book because he didn't get what the wrestling business was in the time. you still had some of the old time influence in the locker room. Guys like benoit and JBL got haze when they started and they went and did the same thing to guys they though were easy target which justin was one of them.
     
  10. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    You have no view at all, so I literally can't laugh at something that doesn't exist.
     
  11. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    Oh boy, where should I begin?

    Your claim that hazing is necessary should really come with an explanation. Feel free to share one at anytime.

    Everyone experiences anxiety, and everyone deals with it in their own way. Some people retreat to "safe spaces", and some people just easily brush it off their shoulder.

    Prowrestling isn't life. If you can't handle eating a jelly doughnut from between Bill Demott's ass cheeks, then I wouldn't question whether or not you're a well adjusted person.

    No, young one, this is not a prime example.

    You haven't indicated exactly why any of the hazing that Miz endured contributed to his current status with the company. Interviews that I've heard with Miz indicate that he's more proud of his experiences with people like Cena, in that they actively nurtured his desire to be a better professional wrestler and didn't force him to change in public restrooms.

    By your logic, it can be argued that Randy Orton and John Cena are not respected veterans because they didn't endure hazing on par with The Miz.
     
  12. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Funny thing is that miz does bring up is hazing all the time in interview how proud he is of getting through it. He attribute his dedication to get through it as the reason he was able to get where he is in the company right now. Cena and orton got haze when they were rookies, maybe not to the level of miz but they did. Hogan, flair, michaels, bret hart and pretty much all the greats have been haze at some point during they career. The stories theses guys would tell you would make you blush.

    Until, i want to say the last 10 years, this was the mentality of the wrestling business. I was exceptable mentality of pro wrestling and a way to weed out those that really wanted to be a pro wrestlers from guy that was using it as a stepping stone for something else.

    Now with social media being what it is, we can't do that anymore because society as a whole is becoming to PC and will be outrage by pretty much anything they feel unconfortable with and with criticize anything.
     
  13. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Your lack of knowledge and ignoring examples given is truly shocking. You really need to learn how the business works, because you just don't get it.
     
  14. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    I've been hazed and it wasn't fun. The people defending hazing really don't understand the true nature of what hazing is and clearly have never been through it. It's not to toughen you up, it's pretty much just veterans being dicks because they have the power to be dicks with minimal repercussions. If you think hazing is necessary in wrestling, than I'm assuming you also think it's necessary to drink a shot of another guy's urine just to be able to join a varsity baseball team. Which is what I had to do, and much more.

    Carrying vet bags and helping chalk the lines is one thing. I had no problem at all doing this. Hazing is just protected abuse though. And if you condone it, you're a moron.
     
  15. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
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    It's clear those defending hazing here have never been hazed. It doesn't make you better at anything.

    As someone who has dealt with friends killing themselves over such practices, I can't express how sick this sentence makes me. It's clear you and Aquaman6686 have no idea what you're talking about, or the very least enough experience in the subject matter to carry a civil discussion. Like hell it will stop either of you though.

    It's easy to sit back and point at the PC boogeyman when you don't fully understand what's going on. In fact, what you're calling PC here has been the standard business practice for far longer than anybody here has been alive. Talk to anyone who works in Human Relations. Hazing is illegal in every company. "Too PC" is not only a nothing phrase here, it's a willfully ignorant defense. Also, fuck society for wanting to treat people better than what it has been treating them, amirite?

    WWE is a publicly traded company that has allowed itself to be examined from the inside out. They obviously have to change with the times in doing so. Appeal To Tradition is not a good argument to make for anything, it is a logical fallacy. To grow you have to evolve. Can't believe this bares reminding, but the WWE from 10 years ago is obviously not the same company it is today. Hazing isn't and shouldn't be a normal part of life for any employee. And again, it kills people.

    JBL is also an asshole and no amount of He-Man beef jerky machismo will lead me to defend him.
     
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  16. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Study after study has shown that hazing, to the most extreme extent, is just a symptom of the actions of closeted homosexuals.

    Do I have a problem with Bradshaw being gay? Of course not. I just wish he would own his sexuality instead of expressing it so childishly and dangerously.

    It gets better John.
     
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  17. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Sorry if you misunderstood my point and got upset about it. As someone who got haze a lot during my teen years, i know more about the subject that you think. What i'm talking about when i point the finger at the PC culture we live in is that we have more people that complain about stuff like that without knowing the whole story or understanding previous generation and how they were raise or in this case how they were initiated into the business.


    Just look at the history of pro wrestling, when we listen to any podcast were a old timer talks about what he did back in the day or read books about old wrestlers we aren't outrage by some of the crap they did to each others in fact, most of us actually love and laughs at those story. Yet when you take them out of contest, suddenly that guy is a asshole. I'm glad that the business as change were ribs like what they did back then doesn'T existed anymore because some of them where really cruel but when you were thought that it was o.k to haze or rib somebody to test is limit because that how you were initiated into the business, you can't really change your mentality overnight, it's part of you.

    I'm all for people talking about it now more then ever nobody should be hazed or bullied but at the same time you have to understand the old generation and how they were raise as well. That's something that we as a society tend to not do at all. Instead we condemn them for stuff they did without trying to understand were they came from especially in the wrestling business and sadly your reply to my post prove my point, instead of understanding what i was talking about you started judging me because you were angry at something i wrote. So again, Sorry if you didn'T like what i wrote but i speak by experience when i wrote about this subject and i probably know more about this then you ever will
     
  18. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!
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    You had two staff members removed because you were called a ******. That pretty much led to the final nails in the coffin for the forum.
     
  19. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
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    I'm sure we can compare your torment to someone close to me killing themselves. That's fair.

    Not a fact. A generalization. There's no evidence to say that's true. Might as well fold your arms and say "kids these days", which is kinda the road we're headed in this thread, so drive on.

    People complain and sometimes they don't know the full story. Hell of a newsflash. I'm sure people weren't complaining fully understanding the full story before PC culture was a thing. Incredible insight, there.

    I'm sorry that I'm not cool with people hazing if it means a wrestler may tell a good road story. To me, that's kinda gross.

    First of all, that ribbing still exists what the fuck do you think the OP was talking about?

    Second, why did I mention Appeal to Tradition is a logical fallacy if you're just going to ignore it?

    It was an asshole thing to do WITH context. Do you know what context is? It doesn't change dickish behavior from being dickish behavior. "Times were different" is such a stupidly obvious remark to be your point, which is not really even a point to make. It's a platitude. I'm sorry if it upsets you, but I don't have to respect old people when it was okay for them to be a dick in their heyday.

    I can understand it being a different time while still criticizing it. I am capable of doing those things simultaneously.


    We do otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion, obviously. Again, Appeal to Tradition fallacy.

    Also, kinda weird that you're using a case of pro wrestlers hazing as some defense of all old people's values. Those things aren't exactly exclusive.

    Condemn like it being illegal condemn? Cuz yeah, you can understand and see where they come from and still know it's wrong. Political Correctness running wild, I tell ya.

    You're saying "you don't understand because times were different therefore old people don't deserve this criticism" a dozen different ways. I'm saying that's stupid, and explained why. I didn't prove your point, which is not a point, but a platitude on par with "boys will be boys".

    I didn't make a judgment on you. I pointed out how sick your post was to me personally. Jut like how I hate the practices of an old generation while still understanding why they did it, I can do both at the same time.

    Sorry I made you angry. You obviously went through more than anybody I know.
     
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  20. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    What are you talking about exactly, i really don't remember that incident and since were remove, it wasn't just because of me but because they were bullying others members of the forum just not me and i was the last one to complain about them but them so i'm not the only reason they got banned. Like i mention in previous post, i'm totally against bullying in any kind and i will always be
     
  21. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    First of all sorry about your friend, as somebody that been bullied i sympathize with you . The way i was able to get through it was with peoples around me that reach out to me and tried to help me find a way to get through it. Did you do that with you friend because i always felt like this is the best way to truly get out of this cycle is have people that loves you help you through the though time.

    As far as this subject is concern, i'm just pointing out how wrestling fans are hypocritical, they get outrage about hazing in wrestling but then laugh when a jim cornette or bruce prichard talk about hazing in wrestling. How fan complain about hazing in wrestling when they love reading stories about it.

    I'm not angry about what you wrote because i get where you coming from, i've been there but i trying to get a beyond that and just bring a perspective on what society is as a whole. We complain so much on social media without doing anything about it. This for me is what makes me angry. Fake outrage. We have the power to change the narrative on bullying and hazing but we rather sit behind our keyboard and write that where outrage about it and then move on. That what i mean by pc culture. We talk and complain but we don't do anything to change the culture. At less in the wrestling business, the mentality as change and we they're less hazing then they was before, if only the rest of society would join them and change.
     
    #21 Psykohurricane55, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  22. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    I'll get right on that Sir.
     
  23. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    A little back-story on me. I've been involved with a career path for the last 19 years that has gone through a figurative roller-coaster with insanely relaxed and insanely strict measures being taken in regard to hazing.

    Insanely strict; I saw a young man's career destroyed simply because he playfully tapped a young woman's arm with his fist, which was a "tradition", and he didn't know that she was pregnant.

    Insanely relaxed; I saw a woman get fired because she took issue with having to see room after room of men swinging their dicks around in a helicopter motion on her way down a long hallway to her office.

    I'm not taking the side of "all hazing is wrong" or "all hazing is right". I'm taking the side of, JBL is a worthless sack of shit and Chris Benoit should have been a blowjob. That's my position.

    The level of abuse that The Miz had to endure was not in any way correlated with his current success, if you can even call what he has now success. Maybe Miz will become the world champion again, but apparently he has to get in line behind Kevin Owens.

    From what I've heard, Miz only brings up the hazing when asked. He only seems to be asked so that the interviewer can get a good laugh out of the stories. I've never heard Miz imply that he's thankful for the abuse that he's endured, so please link me to an example whenever you have the free-time.

    That's the funny thing about sociopaths, then tend to justify their actions by claiming that there's a greater good at play.

    We're constantly throwing The Miz out there as our prime example because it's believed, without any fucking proof whatsoever, that hazing cured The Miz of his attitude that he could utilize the pro-wrestling platform to give a boost to an unrelated TV career on MTV.

    We casually ignore the fact that the head hazer of The Miz ended up murdering his wife and child in a grisly manner and then offed himself because he was too chicken-shit to accept what he did, and that second in command of hazing for The Miz went on to be the WWE laughing stock who claimed to have extensive knowledge of how to make money on the stock marker shortly before his energy drink company drove him into financial ruin.

    Here's my main point; shouldn't the hazer be at least a little successful at life? I get that most people tend to not live up to their expectations of others, but give me a mother fucking break here. If hazing really fixes our moral hang-ups, then maybe someone should have stepped up and hazed Chris Benoit until he decided that murdering his family would be a bad idea and that someone should have hazed JBL until he realized that he could haze other people without forcibly sticking his finger up their ass.

    Fuck it, let's all haze each other until we encounter one of two potential outcomes. We might become more successful at our occupations, or we might die of alcohol poisoning due to the emotionally crippling PTSD that abuse victims tend to endure.

    Psyko, strip naked, and crawl on all fours while we swat your behind with paddles.
     
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  24. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    great Point and i actually agree with you on pretty much everything. I also loved the ending of your post, really original and brought the point home. The only problem i have is the way you use Benoit's murdering is family as a example because it doesn't really apply to the subject. First of all Benoit didn't decide to murder is family, it'S the way is brain was working at the time which made him do this. While it can't be proven 100%, it's as something to do with all the concussions he suffered while being in wrestling. IT's the same illness that is taking so many football players to kill themselves at a young age.

    The thing is, we can talk or write about this subject all we want and it's nice that we have a discussion about it, but in the end, it's just that, a discussion and the more we advance in this discussion the more we turn on each other because we don't agree with each others point of view. Just look at the thread as of now as an example. That's society in a nutshell. We love to discuss the problem but let face it, by next week will go on to the next subject and forget all about this one which is a shame as this is a serious problem, not just in wrestling but in every aspect of life and we just talk about it for moment and move on when instead we should actually get more involve in changing the narrative in are own life.
     
  25. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    Whether or not Benoit's decision to murder his family was a conscious one is really not something I'm concerned with.

    My point was that there were obvious warning signs prior to that occurrence, and there were plenty of people around Benoit who knew damn well that his behavior was abusive and that his mental issues were only exacerbated by the bumps he was taking. I believe that a huge, and ignored, warning sign was when Benoit lost his shit because Miz left half-eaten chicken in the locker room. The locker room vets laughed up how Benoit made Miz change in the public restrooms, and the argument is made on this forum that such abuse was actually beneficial because Miz ended up being somewhat successful.

    If the cost of someone stepping in and getting Chris the help that he obviously needed would be that Miz wasn't as successful, I'd take that over Nancy and Daniel being murdered.

    Wow! That's actually very profound.

    Note that (somewhat disputed) quotes from Socrates indicate that he believed that the generation after him was very spoiled by the hard work of his generation and that it was indicative of what would be a progressive de-evolution of society.

    From the point of "hazing is beneficial", it seems as though some of us are arriving at the conclusion of "the next generation is too PC!" or "the next generation complains too much!".

    I intend to take your advice Sir. We should all focus on bettering ourselves, which I would argue involves going to the trouble of coming up with better forms of nurturing than hazing. Also; those of us of this cantankerous generation need to pull our heads out of our asses and understand that -- if the next generation really is too soft and too sensitive -- then it's partly our fault as we're the ones that raised that generation.

    Oh and, JBL is a worthless sack of shit.
     
    Psykohurricane55 likes this.

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