It's like they keep trying to outdo themselves...

Slyfox696

Excellence of Execution
A group of Republican lawmakers want to require Arizona students to recite a loyalty oath to the U.S. and its Constitution before they can graduate high school. They are sponsoring House Bill 2467 in the Legislature. If passed, it would make the loyalty oath a prerequisite for graduation from any public high school in Arizona starting with the 2013-14 school year.

Students would be required to say:

I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose or evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; so help me God.
So if you are an atheist, or belong to some other religion which does not celebrate the same God as the Christians, you cannot graduate or you have to lie. Of course, you're taking this obligation freely...or you don't graduate. "Do what I say or else have your life ruined...but make sure it's what you want to do!"


Apparently Arizona has been getting jealous with the level of crazy in Texas and has decided to make a run for worst state in the country.
 
I've always thought that the United States of America, were supposed to be separated from church and state. It's like my high-school years were a lie.

Also, wasn't it not only a few years ago, where they were trying to take GOD, out of the pledge of allegiance?
 
Speaking of the Pledge of Allegiance, what was wrong with that? Does anybody recite it anymore? Drop "under God" if you have to, but there's no harm in the gesture. This proposed pledge in Arizona sounds ridiculous, but if they must then just make a renewed push for the Pledge of Allegiance. I did it for the first 8 years of my education, and I don't love this country any more or less because of it. If anything it was just a reminder that we're all on the same team, shooting for the same goals. If we're worried about our kids becoming Al Qaeda, just bring back the Pledge of Allegiance.
 
The whole idea of coercing kids into saying this is ludicrous. If they refuse, I wonder if they can get a GED without saying it, or if they're still forced to say it. Many Reps are going so far to the right, it's ridiculous. They better hope the US goes totally into the tank with Obama in charge, because if he improves this country's condition even a little, Reps won't win any elections for the next 10 years. They're in danger of losing the House already.
 
What on earth does separation from Church and State exactly mean to the Republicans. What this new law tells me is that anytime the Democrats want to amend the Constitution they are destroying it, but when Republicans write laws like this that directly violate the First Amendment in the bill of rights, it is perfectly okay?

Surely this isn't that big of a deal if you just bullshit it. It is just a few words you need to recite to make some fat cat in Congress feel like he is doing gods work.
 
Arizona seems to have issues like this. Like Evan Mecham not wanting the state to celebrate King's holiday back in the day when he was governor. But looking at the other side of this, it could be a ploy to increase enrollment for private schools there, as ridiculous as it sounds (especially to me). But separation of church and state should apply to this as well. Wouldn't something like this violate civil and constitutional rights, like freedom of choice and religion? It doesn't make sense for students who bust their asses for four years (maybe less) for the state to jump up in the end and say you won't receive your diploma before taking this oath. It's not exactly getting citizenship here.
 
When it comes to the "so help me God" part of the oath, I don't see how those who are administering the oath can know which "God" you're talking about. I've heard Muslims refer to Allah simply as "God" many times. I've also heard those of the Hindu belief simply say "God" in reference to any one of the multitude of Hindu gods. The intent of this oath is clearly aimed towards Christians, however. Plus, if you consider it, it's also clearly aimed as a not too veiled attempt to impose some degree of Christian belief onto someone.

As far as Separation of Church & State, it's something that's really been fudged up from the very beginning. The United States of America was ultimately built with Christianity as the dominant religion. Because of that, aspect of Christianity are ingrained into the fabric of the country. I don't believe there's any way to get around that. We put the words "In God We Trust" onto everything from currency to decorations of state offices such as courthouses. We have elected officials being sworn into by having them place their hands on bibles while saying an oath extremely similar to this one proposed by the Arizona legislature. If you testify in court, you have to swear on a bible as well. There are government buildings with Christian artwork decorating them, including stone carvings of the Ten Commandments.

I'm a Christian and I believe in God. I'll openly and frankly speak to people about my beliefs if they want, but I won't shove it down people's throats. When it comes to anything regarding Christianity, let's face it, Republicans are known for doing best to take personal Christian beliefs and have them legislated as laws. It bothers me because, more often than not, so many of them will use their Christian beliefs as an excuse for their own purposes. Same sex marriage is hotly debated right now and many cite the Bible as their source for being against it. If it's a sin, which the Bible says it is, then it's for God to judge gay men & women, not me. Also, there's ranking of sins as it pertains to which sins are worse than others. In God's eyes, according to Christian teachings, a sin is a sin no matter what. Rush Limbaugh is against it, as many are, because he says it pollutes the sanctity of marriage. What does he know of the sanctity of marriage? He's been married four times. Elected officials who are on the same political page as Limbaugh often proclaim similar beliefs when it comes to marriage, but look at how many of them have mistresses on the side or frequently engage the services of prostitutes. Not that there aren't hypocrites on the left either, as there certainly are, but it tends to be Republicans who thump the Bible and all it stands for to get elected.

Even if something like this oath does pass in Arizona, I think it could be struck down by the higher courts if someone seriously wants to challenge it.
 
It's another bill that no one expects to pass today, but it 'fires up the base'. There are a lot of people who think loyalty oaths are a good idea. They are completely wrong, of course, but not really aware of how they're wrong.

Oaths are taken voluntarily. You pledge your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor to a cause that you understand and believe in. Oaths are generally not recognized (there is no official policy of what an 'oath' is, outside of perjury in legal courts; I am talking culturally) when they are compelled or coerced; like, for instance, by forcing someone to swear an oath in order to graduate high school.

Why is this wrong? Because it would strip all the meaning out of the oath, and reduce students to saying a phrase which has no meaning for them in order to jump through another hoop on the path to graduation. You simply cannot require people to care- that's not law, that's basic human nature. If people do care about their high school education (I know, but bear with me), and they haven't understood why they should care about the United States, are they going to dig in deep and research the history and consequence of American freedom, or are they going to repeat a phrase to make whatever gatekeeper controls their education happy?
 
When it comes to the "so help me God" part of the oath, I don't see how those who are administering the oath can know which "God" you're talking about. I've heard Muslims refer to Allah simply as "God" many times. I've also heard those of the Hindu belief simply say "God" in reference to any one of the multitude of Hindu gods. The intent of this oath is clearly aimed towards Christians, however. Plus, if you consider it, it's also clearly aimed as a not too veiled attempt to impose some degree of Christian belief onto someone.

As far as Separation of Church & State, it's something that's really been fudged up from the very beginning. The United States of America was ultimately built with Christianity as the dominant religion. Because of that, aspect of Christianity are ingrained into the fabric of the country. I don't believe there's any way to get around that. We put the words "In God We Trust" onto everything from currency to decorations of state offices such as courthouses. We have elected officials being sworn into by having them place their hands on bibles while saying an oath extremely similar to this one proposed by the Arizona legislature. If you testify in court, you have to swear on a bible as well. There are government buildings with Christian artwork decorating them, including stone carvings of the Ten Commandments.

I'm a Christian and I believe in God. I'll openly and frankly speak to people about my beliefs if they want, but I won't shove it down people's throats. When it comes to anything regarding Christianity, let's face it, Republicans are known for doing best to take personal Christian beliefs and have them legislated as laws. It bothers me because, more often than not, so many of them will use their Christian beliefs as an excuse for their own purposes. Same sex marriage is hotly debated right now and many cite the Bible as their source for being against it. If it's a sin, which the Bible says it is, then it's for God to judge gay men & women, not me. Also, there's ranking of sins as it pertains to which sins are worse than others. In God's eyes, according to Christian teachings, a sin is a sin no matter what. Rush Limbaugh is against it, as many are, because he says it pollutes the sanctity of marriage. What does he know of the sanctity of marriage? He's been married four times. Elected officials who are on the same political page as Limbaugh often proclaim similar beliefs when it comes to marriage, but look at how many of them have mistresses on the side or frequently engage the services of prostitutes. Not that there aren't hypocrites on the left either, as there certainly are, but it tends to be Republicans who thump the Bible and all it stands for to get elected.

Even if something like this oath does pass in Arizona, I think it could be struck down by the higher courts if someone seriously wants to challenge it.

Yeah... except that this isn't actually true. This is revisionist history, at it's finest.

1. The original Constitution, ratified in 1789, had one reference to religion in it:

[Article 6] No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States

In fact, there isn't a single mention of a single term you'd commonly associate with Christianity or even religion for that matter in the entire document. Not "Jesus Christ", not "Christianity", not "Christian", not "Bible", not "Creator", not "Divine" or even "God". The only time religion is even mentioned is in exclusionary terms.

2. The de facto motto of the US, adopted as part of the Great Seal of the US by Congress in 1782 was E. Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, One). Congress changed it 174 years later, in 1956, to "In God We Trust".

3. The original Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892 by Baptist Minister Francis Bellany, didn't include the words "Under God" — these were added, again by Congress, 62 years later in 1954.

4. The US didn't issue paper currency until 1861, and "In God We Trust" didn't appear on it until 96 years later, in 1957.​

As if these facts didn't already destroy your theory enough on their own, numerous signatures on the Delcaration of Independence were authored by secularists and deists, so once again, this idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation is completely revisionist thinking, and if I'm speaking frankly, bullshit.

John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and George Washington are widely considered to be the "key" men among the Founding Fathers. Of them, only John Jay could be considered an Orthodox Christian. Franklin, Jefferson, etc. were secularists (as in full on supporters of separation of Church and State).

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787)

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no [organized] religion in it" - John Adams

"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder. What is it the Testament teaches us? -- to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.” - Sir Thomas Paine

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75​

I find it incredibly hard to believe Christian men, acting with the intent to found a Christian nation, would ever speak in such directly blasphemous tones.

So one last time, so it really sinks in, in case anyone else decides to continue buying these falsehoods that get perpetuated by Right Wing media outlets — The US is not, and was not, founded as a Christian nation. Quite the opposite, in fact. It was founded as a secular nation, and that secularism is what's under attack since the mid twentieth century.
 
The whole idea of coercing kids into saying this is ludicrous. If they refuse, I wonder if they can get a GED without saying it, or if they're still forced to say it. Many Reps are going so far to the right, it's ridiculous. They better hope the US goes totally into the tank with Obama in charge, because if he improves this country's condition even a little, Reps won't win any elections for the next 10 years. They're in danger of losing the House already.

As long as the GOP keeps running the same racist, sexist, homophobes they're gonna keep on losing. Their base of butthurt old men is dying and the kids don't like them. Stuff like this isn't helping their case.
 

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