Ishii vs Honma

[ABMorales787]

Finally got around to watching New Beginning In Sendai. Much better than the Osaka card. Less Bullet Club saturation. I kept hearing about how Honma vs Ishii for the NEVER Openweight title was "MOTY" quality. After watching it, I think this would best sum it up:

Spoiler

[YOUTUBE]T8akN59y73c[/YOUTUBE]

Trade "chopping" for "forearm shots" or "falling headbutts" if you'd like.

As usual, I think this is great wrestling that falls victim to overhype.

Now I'm just gonna sit here and wait for the lecture about how I don't understand the culture while I watch anime, eat sushi and practice my shotokan.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Trade "chopping" for "forearm shots" or "falling headbutts" if you'd like.

As usual, I think this is great wrestling that falls victim to overhype.

Now I'm just gonna sit here and wait for the lecture about how I don't understand the culture while I watch anime, eat sushi and practice my shotokan.

I'm not gonna lecture you about "not understanding" it, but it is very obvious that strong style just isn't your thing and sometimes that will be reflected in your assessment of a match like this. But that's okay, for example I at times rate high profile WWE matches lower than many, because in often cases the WWE style isn't my thing.

To call that match just chopping, forearms, and headbutts is massively oversimplifying. It would be no different than me classifying the majority of Lucha Underground matches as nothing but superkicks, armdrags, and flying head scissors, even though there is obviously so much more to the dynamic of what is being presented.


As for Honma/Ishii at Sendai...

For me, it tops the triple threat at Rumble and the double main event at Wrestle Kingdom as the match of the year. And it was better than any match that happened in 2014 as well.

 

[ABMorales787]

I get it. But to me, Nagata vs Nakamura was so much better. Much better pacing, tremendous selling from Nakamura and even the commentator screaming "Yuji is a God! He's a God!" During the armbar spot with the rolled eyes. The commentator was even crying by end.

I just found that, the Rumble 3 Way and the 2 WK9 matches much better. Even the Volador vs Guerrero match. I just can't understand how this one is the one people cite as the best. Its very typical stuff when you get down to it.

 

[zomigosh]

The emotional investment is what makes the match.

Honma hasn't won a singles match since 2009, and he insists on hitting his top rope flying kokeshi's that he almost always misses which leads to the end of the match. He went through the whole G1 Climax without winning a match, but the crowd nearly every night thought that this was finally going to be the night that he won a singles match. He lost every match at the G1, but the crowd after every match chanted Honma loudly and cheered him to the back.

Honma has a way of making people think that he's finally going to win that match, even though he's always going to lose. I've been convinced that he'll never win anything other than six-man tag matches ever again for the rest of his New Japan career for quite awhile now (and he shouldn't, either), but he still managed to convince me he could win this match. I was going crazy. The chops and headbutts do add a lot to it, but the real thing that makes the match good is the drama of it.

I loved every second of it, from the two minute chop fest, to Honma not slapping his head before going for the kokeshi to save himself time, to Ishii's INSANELY good selling after the DDT (if it was selling, I really hope it was for his sake), to Honma pushing Ishii back into the ring to prove he can pin him even though he could've won by count out, to both men obviously getting more and more tired towards the end leading to the match finishing in a somewhat anti-climactic (but absolutely perfect) way. It was great.

Work rate means nothing, a guy can do a million moves and have a so-so match and a guy can do two moves and have an amazing match. Guys like Tenryu made a career out of making the most out of doing nothing. I'm not going to say you don't understand Japanese culture, but I will say you don't understand the match. It wasn't just a chop-fest like Ishii/Shibata (which I really don't like all that much), there was an extra level of storytelling to it that made the match fantastic. I still like Ibushi/Nakamura and the Rumble Triple Threat better, but this was a fantastic match. Off to an amazing start this year match quality-wise.

 

[zomigosh]

Much better pacing

The pacing actually killed the match for me. I thought it ended very abruptly with Nak's boma ye. The rest of the match was well done, but the finishing sequence felt really off just like the Shibata IC Title defense. The finishes to Nakamura's matches are really hit and miss. Sometimes they're really, really good (like the first Nakamura/Ibushi match) but most the time they're really bad.

As you seem to at least know a little Japanese, would you happen to know if there's any back story between that commentator and Nagata? They've highlighted him in quite a few of Nagata's matches now and I have no idea why

 

[ABMorales787]

The pacing actually killed the match for me. I thought it ended very abruptly with Nak's boma ye. The rest of the match was well done, but the finishing sequence felt really off just like the Shibata IC Title defense.

As you seem to at least know a little Japanese, would you happen to know if there's any back story between that commentator and Nagata? They've highlighted him in quite a few of Nagata's matches now and I have no idea why

Not sure. But it might have to do with how Nagata was billed as this family man looking to provide and then just beating the crap out of the seemingly unbeatable Nakamura. I did notice the commentator was very pro-Nagata.

I likes the ending. It came off as Nakamura's last shot to win or be doomed to finally lose.

 

[zomigosh]

Not sure. But it might have to do with how Nagata was billed as this family man looking to provide and then just beating the crap out of the seemingly unbeatable Nakamura. I did notice the commentator was very pro-Nagata.

They usually highlight the commentator during big Nagata matches, just randomly put the camera on him during the middle of the match after something big happens. So I figured there must be a bigger connection between the two.

I likes the ending. It came off as Nakamura's last shot to win or be doomed to finally lose.

Nagata imo never hit enough believable offense to make it seem like he was a threat to Nakamura. I never once thought that Nagata was going to beat Nakamura, I just saw it as Nagata doing his few key signature moves before they got ready to start the finishing sequence. It ended really flat and anti-clamactic. Not in the way that Ishii/Honma did with them already hitting each other with everything they had and becoming tireder and tireder towards the end, but in the way that it felt like they just skipped passed the action and went to the finish.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I just can't understand how this one is the one people cite as the best. Its very typical stuff when you get down to it.

To me everything about it was just perfect. The Honmania thing is very real and its amazing to see a Japanese crowd transform into a Western-like crowd and go batshit crazy for him, and they really sold them during the match on believing he could actually win this time. The stiffness was incredible and there is no way that they should have been able to stretch that brutality for nearly 25 minutes.

I loved the headbutt, forearm, and chop exchanges, the leverage wars on the suplexes, the Kokeshi set-ups, it was all perfect. I love how both guys sell and it makes the fighting spirit spots even more effective. The amount of believable nearfalls was dumbfounding. The minute long chop battle to set up the first successful Kokeshi was brilliant. The stalling superplex was sick. The Kokeshi to the outside was sicker. The build of the crowd was great, they kept pulling them back further into the emotion with the false finishes. I can't even put most of it into words, a wrestling match like that is a damn near spiritual experience.

And the amount of work Honma did was legendary, his individual effort was as strong as any I've seen by one wrestler in a single sub-25 minute match ever among the tens of thousands of matches that I've seen.

I get its not everybody's style, and I'm further influenced by having developed an intense appreciation for both men's work over the last couple years, but still I think its a match that any wrestling fan should seek out just to see if it can click with them in the same manner. Its the kind of match that can change the way someone relates to pro wrestling.

In case there is anyone who cannot tell, I really enjoyed it.

As you seem to at least know a little Japanese, would you happen to know if there's any back story between that commentator and Nagata? They've highlighted him in quite a few of Nagata's matches now and I have no idea why

Shinpei Nogami is a mark for Nagata, especially now. Lately Nagata has been doing some commentary with Nogami on TV Asahi, including the broadcasts of last month's Fatastica Mania shows. This was just him going into the show with an emotional investment, rooting hard for his friend in what may have been his last realistic shot at a major singles title. He was even wearing a Nagata T-shirt.

Here they are with Nogami doing Nagata's signature hand pose with him:

 

[ABMorales787]

Objective opinions. What a concept.

 

[zomigosh]

Objective opinions. What a concept.

If this was a subtle passive-aggressive way to take a jab at me for saying you didn't understand the honma/ishii , it's only because there was more to it than just chops and elbows and had more layers than the usual fighting spirit style match. I don't care if you still didn't like it considering this fact and I don't think it makes it an objectively good match, I was just pointing out that from the post it seemed you missed the crucial bit on why most found the match good.