Is there any great workers in today wrestling landscape?

Discussion in 'The World of Wrestling' started by Psykohurricane55, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    That's a great question to ask right now because now more then ever, the definition of a great worker is different for everybody. But what i'm talking about here when i'm talking about a great worker is somebody that in 30 or 40 years from now will be talked about on the same level as Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels.

    Personally, i don't think so. In fact i fell like most wrestlers from this era will probably be forgotten by then because of what the business and the mentality of the wrestlers have become.

    Not glorifying the Old school mentality because let's face it, they had some major flaws with their mentality outside the ring but when you look at match from the 70's, 80's and all the way until the mid 2000, it felt like wrestlers got what the business was about more so then today's wrestlers.

    You look at a Ric flair match for example, it's pretty much the same match every single time, What makes all those matches different from one another, it's how the story is told inside the ring, the emotion in flair's and his opponent face and action. Matches weren't just about the moves and who could do the most cool stuff back then, it was about the story and the emotions. That's why Flair is looked at as one of the best of all time, not because of his workrate and how many cool moves he could do, because let's face it flair wasn't the greatest in ring technician and he would be the first one to admit that, it's how he told the story he wanted to tell with thoses move, The pacing of the match and how he could take you to a journey through his matches.

    Same goes with Micheals. Today i fell like a lot of wrestlers, especially the big star on the international scene, Focus too much on the in ring part and not enough on the story or psychology part of the art of wrestling. That's why Wrestling, While being a pretty healthy industry, isn't able to attract older and newer fans, Because of the way it's been treated by the wrestlers.

    We use to go out there back in the day and protect the business and fight for it to be taken seriously. Everybody knew it was choreograph and the outcome was predetermine but we would still go out and argue with everybody that called it fake because for us it was a insult and that's why so many legends came out of that era of wrestling and were still talking about them in 2019. Now it's like those that grew up wanting to be a wrestlers and protecting the business they loved forgot all that and pretty much said, reveal everything we already knew and confirm it and which in part make you not want to believe in the product anymore and give an out for the wrestlers to focus too much on the in ring and less on the psychology.

    In a nutshell, That's why i don't think that there any great workers anymore. There are great wrestlers and great performers but a great overall worker like we had in the past doesn'T exist in today'S wrestling landscape.
     
  2. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, AJ Styles, Seth Rollins, Charlotte Flair, Becky Lynch.
     
  3. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Agree with you about Bryan,Styles and Rollins and maybe Flair as well. Ziggler and Lynch not as much but at the same time, they are probably the exception to the rules at this point.

    Ziggler, loved him and nothing against him, but a always saw him more as a great plumber more then a great worker, The guy can pretty much make anybody look better but it's really repetitive and even his promo fell repetitive now. Lynch is one of my favorite but again, same as Ziggler, she good but not great. Her man stick is already getting old and she reverting back to the old becky which isn't helping her as well.

    Also since you could put The Miz in this list as well to be honest. Not the greatest worker as a in ring performer but the guy can get people to care. So yeah maybe their is some great workers afterall, but they are few and far between but at the same time, will any of them be remember in 30 years, that's another question.
     
  4. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The Miz definitely belongs on there, I was just listing a few examples.
     
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  5. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Original post: no great workers today

    Repsonse: A, B, C, and D

    Original poster: oh, yeah. Nevermind.

    Me: there is so much wrestling exposure today and so much talent that we take it for granted. Flair could do the same shit every night "successfully" because fans didn't consume so much wrestling. It was theater way more than television or internet streams that can be gobbled up by the masses. Doesn't mean Flair wasn't great, it just means that times have changed.
     
  6. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Your right that about this, time have change but at the same time did it change for better or worst? Really you look at how wrestling was back when it wasn't over exposed. It was pretty much something that was accessible to everybody and didn't cost a fortune so they would get bigger crowd in the arena and more people watching it on tv, so it was easier to become a big superstars back then because it was less expose.

    You look at today's landscape and while it'S great, their 2 things that is pretty evident. First, the product is pretty much becoming a IWC club now as every wrestlers from every promotion that's not WWE is doing the same thing to attract the same crowds so they are pretty much killing each other especially now with every second tier promotion signing what's left of the indy stars to exclusive contract and secondly, because it's over expose and it's pretty much all the same over produced product, fans that left after the last wrestling boom aren't coming back because the current presentation isn't working for them. The kids are sticking with WWE because the rest of the wrestling business doesn't want to appeal to the next generation of fans like WCW and WWE and other promotions did for them. While they are good workers in this generation of wrestlers, what left of the great workers are peoples what's left of the veteran that started in the 90's or early 2000's. Guys like Styles,Bryan, Rollins, Jericho are guys that are great workers because they learn from some of the best in the business and applied what they learn. They are the last of the great workers in my opinion because the current generation are too self involve to go seek out advice from somebody like a jericho that's been in this business for a long time. They rather focus on their ''Art'' then actually develop something that will attract not just the Hardcore wrestling fans but fans outside that community. So as good or great the current generation is and as much as the wrestling landscape as change, the fact is, Nobody in the current generation will ever be remember on the same level as guys like Styles, Bryan, Austin, HBK and Flair just to name them because they just care about the in ring and pleasing the Hardcore wrestling fans instead of trying to give something that will attract huge crowds.
     
  7. TDFG

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    In my opinion, Cesaro is a great worker, Shelton Benjamin is a great worker. However, neither are great on the mic and this has possibly cost them, perhaps management just don't see them as 'good enough'.

    Charlotte Flair will be spoken about in years to come, the Women's division feels new despite is being around for a considerable time, WWE has pushed it more for it's in ring product rather than eye candy. Charlotte is almost the standard bearer for Women's wrestling.

    Other notable mentions, AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan, Randy Orton & Roman Reigns.
     
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  8. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    On the topic of Charlotte Flair, I find it amusing that unlike, say, Maria Kanellis, Maryse, Mickie James, etc. (i.e. the "old guard"), she's a vocal criticizer of the Divas division and girls getting by on their looks. OK, fine, she wasn't there for most of that, fair enough.

    ....remind me who's had tons of surgery to get huge fake boobs, butt implants, and face work?

    Oh, right.

    Charlotte Flair.
     
  9. Fire Marshall Bill

    Fire Marshall Bill Let me show ya somethin!!!

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    I don’t know about face work. And she’s obviously had bad breast implant work, but butt implants? When? She has no ass. Is this brand new, like her most recent time off? Because last time I paid attention, she still had no ass.
     
  10. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Look at any picture of Charlotte's face from 4-5 years ago, then look at her face now. The amount of work she's had done is STAGGERING.

    Her butt was definitely enhanced also. She has a substantially bigger and plumper butt now than she did in 2015-2016. It's just not as obvious as her boobs, where she came into WWE with small C cups, enhanced them to Ds not long after joining the main roster, and then had them enlarged to DDs in 2018. The difference with her butt is much more subtle, but you can clearly see it if you look.
     
  11. JoeMallard

    JoeMallard Championship Contender

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    There is something called squats, not like you know anything about exercise...
     
  12. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Ah, going right to personal insults because you know you have no argument. Classic WZ troll.
     
  13. TDFG

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    These supposed surgeries that you've mentioned aren't the reason she's gotten over, she's one of the best female talents in WWE history and has helped the level of Women's wrestling to rise along with a few others like Natalya & Becky.

    I can't say Maryse or Maria will be remembered for their wrestling skills.
     
  14. Aquaman6686

    Aquaman6686 Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Never did I say it was the reason she got over. I said it was amusing that she's so anti-Diva and yet she's more obsessed with having the "Diva" body than any of them.
     
  15. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Better, wrestling over the past five years has been way better than any time in history. On top of that you don't even have to watch it anymore. Just wait for others to tell you what was great and then watch it .


    WWE has plenty of superstars today that are making record amounts of money. They may be in a lull right now without an all time great (Cena, Hogan, Rock, Austin) but thay doesn't mean the talent has anything to complain about when it comes to fame or money.

    Look, you think it's great. Just stop yourself before you go on some Cornette delusional rant that is somewhere between nonsense and trivial.

    <<I assume this is the end of your first gripe>>

    How do you get kids to watch your product when kids are either going to find WWE and/or are already consumed by millions of entertainment options?

    And more importantly, how does having kids like non-WWE impact you enjoyment of wrestling?



    Stop pulling stuff out of your butt. What are you saying this generation is doing? Teaching themselves wrestling and making up matches on their own?

    You don't know this. You sound like Aquaman.

    How do you know what they care about?
     
  16. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Only going to reply to all of this by writing this. Just watch current wrestling and listen to the performers giving interviews. They really don't understand the art of pro wrestling like previous generations did. For the current gen, it's all about the in ring and not about the psychology. Most of them can't do a convincing promo to save their life and wrestling outside WWE as pretty become a battle for who can have the coolest product to please the IWC. Yeah, wrestling is better today then it was before, but i don't see anybody from the indy scene being remembered by the next gen of fans like we remebered guys like flair and others legends like this.

    Also look at the difference in gross between 70's, 80's,90's and today. Today, were happy when we attract 10 000 in a arena. It's considered a success, back then it was a disappointment or a spot show depending on where you were.

    Today's we have WWE and then we have everybody else fighting against each other to attract the same crowd and that's probably the more interesting thing mostly because you want to see who will be destroyed first.
     
  17. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    Nice old man rant. Did you wave your cane at your screen while typing this out?

    Stop listening to Jim Cornette. He is working you by playing a character that whines about stuff that he has little knowledge of and you have no knowledge of.

    You're comparing childhood memories and YouTube clips of the greatest moments over 40 years to countless hours of wrestling watching. Just because Rick O'Shea does some high flying and doesn't say much else and indy products are limited to what they can accomplish with little money doesn't mean this generation doesn't know what they're doing.

    This comparison is obnoxious. Of course you can't see this. If you could you would be a talent scout for WWE, not random guy on internet #1,376,786.

    It's we're. And to the best of my knowledge you are not a wrestler or promoter. Gate receipts should not impact your life.

    Yet you continue to praise Roman Reigns.

    Yes, the internet has given rise to a "boom" in indy wrestling and at some point the bubble will burst and some will die. It is not a surprise or some sign about the indy talent, it is simply an entertainment business cycle.
     
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  18. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    So if you're such an expert on this, tell me, outside Cody rhodes, i'm excluding him because he's a third generation wrestler and actually knows what he's doing, who on the indy scene is attracting all sort of new fans on the product by either cutting great promos or doing interviews or even wrestling in a still that will attract fans outside the wrestling bubble we live in. And i'm not talking about guy on the bottom wrestling for 15$ in a high school gym. I'm talking about guys that are on those super indies promotions that have t.v. deals and some sort of exposure. That i'm talking about because outside those who were in WWE and understand how the business works, i don't see anybody stepping up and taking their game to the next level right now. That's the whole point of this thread.

    It's all well and good that we get great wrestling and that the business as change, but when everybody is fighting for the same group of fans and not thinking about how where going to groom the next generation of fans, that's were you have a problem and that were this generation of wrestlers fail in my opinion. It might be a old school way of thinking but in the end when you look at the history of wrestling from where it started all the way to were it is today, it wouldn't exist anymore if they didn't think about getting the next generation of fans interested in wrestling. WWE is doing that and that'S why they are in the position they are in. New japan is somewhat doing that with their style of wrestling and that's why their in the position they are in. ROH, IMPACT and Others fed liked that didn't do that and look where they are today and if AEW doesn't do that, they might joined them within the next 10 years.
     
  19. TDFG

    TDFG Championship Contender

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    I didn't say you did, I was making a point that regardless of the surgery, her in ring work is what has gotten her to the position she is in, in 20/30 years time, she won't be remembered for enhancement surgery. With all due respect, who in 20/30 years time, if you mentioned Charlotte Flair & Maria Kanellis, almost everyone will say Maria who!!!
     
  20. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    I have no idea. If I did I would be a WWE talent scout. I don't watch the indies. I barely watch WWE. I can't and don't make much time for it. I mostly just wait to hear what is good and I watch that. One of the great things about being a fan today.

    Regardless, your arguments are bunk. It is like you are arguing an argument here that you started with some troll on Reddit that no one can follow. You seem to not like Indy wrestling. That's fine, don't watch. Just don't pretend you know why the talent are not up to your standards, how the learn, how they train, and how they prepare. You don't know.

    Why would Indy workers be comparable to Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels? If anyone reached that point it is likely they would get snatched up by an organization that could afford their worth.

    Plus, great workers need to work on a big stage to be considered great on the level of Flair or Michaels. Until some of those guys get there, it is nonsense to even ask if they are great.

    You don't know what promotions think about. Start your own promotion if you do.

    Do you seriously think that the promoters don't think about the future?

    Ok. Entertainment is a difficult business. Products fail. You seem to believe they are failing because they are apathetic. You don't know that and it is unlikely that you are right.
     
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  21. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Let's just agree to disagree on this and move on, i'm starting to feel like this will become personal very quickly and that's not wasn't my attention with this discussion. Personally, i loved watching the business side of wrestling and learn everything their is to know about the business but that's me because i've been watching wrestling for over 30 years now and learning this stuff as been my passion for at less 10 years so that's why i love starting discussion about this stuff and sometimes, it get a little out of hand especially in case like this but i've learn that sometimes it's better to just stop arguing my point just to be right and just agree to disagree on this. We both made valid points and while it became a little heated near the end, i really enjoyed discussing this with you.
     
  22. George Steele's Barber

    George Steele's Barber Advertise Here $9.95/month

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    I'm happy to agree with you if you can somehow prove that Indy talent are unwilling to learn or try something different or at a minimum provide an idea that Indies could try to separate themselves from other companies, build more fans, and not destroy their ability to make money.

    You just seem to throw out accusations without any evidence or understanding. For someone who is really into the wrestling business you sound like someone who just spouts off Jim Cornetteisms or is pulling ideas out of thin air. Where is you education coming from?
     
  23. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Like everybody else, listening to interviews, reading books about the business, watching wrestling for over 30 years, reading stuff about the business on the internet you know the usual stuff.

    Sometimes, when you watch wrestling for a long time like i did, you can actually pick off stuff that newer fans can't if you really pay attention. Most of the time, it's in the small thing that wrestlers do that make a match great. From a expression to just how they take bumps. Sometimes it's better to go slower and tell a story then go 100 miles a hour and no sell anything.

    I take for example 2 matches From AEW Double or nothing and First Cody Rhodes vs Dustin Rhodes, you watch that match and they're not going a 1000 miles a hour and everything they do make sense, they are their to tell a story and it works. The you go the complete opposite The best friend vs Angelico and Jack evans. You look at that match and it's just bad, the selling isn't good and you can just tell that they are there for the sole purpose of getting a pop from the fans in the arena and not trying to get fans watching at home to stay and watch the rest of the show. That's where the problem is really.

    Also, other proof, just go listen to interview then some of those guys give from time to time, the way they approach the business is really not the way they will make good money. They may be able to make money but unless they know somebody in the business that can give them a good contract to do the same stuff, they probably continue to beat up their bodies to make end meet.

    I get it that the business as change and that it's not like it once was, but the fundamental of the business haven't change, it's just that a lot of the younger generation seem to be more concern about the in-ring aspect and pleasing the live crowd then to be the full package and entertaining people watching at home, at less that's the impression they give on the surface by the way they act and talk.
     
  24. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    Give me one Mania 1 match other than Hogan/Mr T vs Piper/Orndorff that wasn't complete dog-shit. I understand you're wearing rose-colored glasses and remember those days as the greatest ever but to call the mid-80s guys better workers than today's wrestlers is ridiculous. Like today, there were some guys that were great at telling a story in the ring, and than there were those who couldn't wrestle an entertaining match to save their lives. The difference is back then the latter included about 80% of the roster.

    And oh yeah, watching Tito Santana vs The Executioner was A+ wrestling. Really seemed as if that match could attract new fans. :icon_rolleyes:
     
  25. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Go watch some old NWA matches to get my point better. Sure not every matches were meant to be a 5 star match and i'm not saying that today guys aren't better then what we had in the old days, it's a different era. But you look at what we got today, a lot of the talents still don't get that when you're on TV or streaming service, the point is to make the people at home care about your performance and a lot of them want to please the live crowd first and the home viewers second.

    You mentioned Santana vs the executioner, Yeah it wasn't A+ wrestling but that's not wasn't the point of that match, the point of that match was to make the Star(Tito Santana) go over in the opening match of the biggest show of the WWF at the time. For me, the definition of a good to great worker is somebody that not only can go in the ring but that can make thing feel real and keep the attention of both the live audience and the tv audience as well.

    You crap on the wrestlemania card, but look at it from the perspective of somebody watching this in 1985 when it first aired. You open up with one of the big star in Tito Santana get a win over a the executioner, match was simple but you didn't need more then what they give in that match. Same goes for other matches like bundy vs SD Jones, The iron sheik and volkoff vs rotunda and windham. Steamboat vs matt Borne. Wendi richter vs lai lani kai. All good matches in there own way and didn't need to do stupid comedy bits to get over. Today talent are ten times the athletes that guys back in the day were and i'm not arguing that point. But what the point of having multiple 5 star matches every night on every card if nobody remembers them the following day? The undercard is their for a reason, to make the main event look like a millions bucks in the end, everybody remember the Flair/steamboat trilogy because nobody outshine them on the undercard. That's being a good worker. When you're able to get the attention of everybody watching at home and in the live crowd without outshining the main event, that's been a good to great worker. When you're on the undercard and you're not a big star but still go out there and have a 5 star match every night, that's not being a good worker, that's being a good wrestler and it's completely different. If you have to do silly stuff to get the live audience to pop, then move on and retire because you're not meant for this business.

    That's the point i'm trying to make. In 30 years, when we're going to discuss wrestling in any medium their is, what Non WWE wrestlers will we still talk about and remember their great matches because of the emotional connection we had to them back in the day? Not a lot of them because that connection is gone for the most part and now it's more about how great the in ring is instead of trying to connect with everybody through selling and playing for the camera. That's why most show outside of WWE as mostly a young male audience now because nobody as found a way to get anybody else interested in their product. What happens when that 18 to 45 audience that watches wrestling suddenly disappear because they grew older and stop watching wrestling? Nothing because they were so concern in giving the current fanbase what they want that they forgot to give everybody else what they wanted as well, So the next generation of fans will either continue to watch WWE or just move on to something else because the alternative is so exclusive that it will get boring or will be too stupid for them.

    Again not shitting on the product or the wrestlers themselves because i agree, they are way better athletes then back then. But at the same time, when everybody is doing the same thing, how can you create your own path and become somebody that will still be remember in 30 years when you can't even get fans to remember what you did a week after you did it?
     

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