Just got finished reading "To Be The Man" by Ric Flair and what a load of horse crap. Flair blamed Fritz Von Erich for enabling his sons drug use and even has the gall to say Fritz could have saved his sons if he wanted to. Lo and behold several years later and Reid is dead from a drug overdose after multiple public incidents with drugs which Flair did nothing about because he was too busy being the "nature boy", whatever that is. Did you guys see Flair on that episode of wife swap? He had NOTHING at all to do with his kids. He's a horrible father and man. He's also one of the most overrated pieces of garbage in pro wrestling, just ask Bret Hart. Flair cries like a baby whenever he doesn't get his way. Bischoff was right when he said Flair never drew a dime. The Mid Atlantic was hot in the mid to late 80's but that was because of guys like Sting, Rock and Roll Express, Road Warriors and Dusty than Flair. Flair fell on his face whenever he had to carry a promotion by himself.
Is there a bigger hypocrite than Ric Flair?
- Thread starter thestud77
- Start date
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Not all of this is true... but not all of this is wrong. The shit about the Von Erich's definitely came back to bite him in the ass.
To say he never drew a dime though? ******ed. He was a bigger draw than every single one of the guys you mentioned in the 80s. Sting may have surpassed him for a year or two in the 90s but that's it.
He is vastly over-rated. I've been over Ric Flair for about 10 years now. The only real downside to Triple H's current regime is that he won't quit fucking putting Flair on TV in one way or another.
To say he never drew a dime though? ******ed. He was a bigger draw than every single one of the guys you mentioned in the 80s. Sting may have surpassed him for a year or two in the 90s but that's it.
He is vastly over-rated. I've been over Ric Flair for about 10 years now. The only real downside to Triple H's current regime is that he won't quit fucking putting Flair on TV in one way or another.
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
When it comes to the Von Erichs, the overall feeling I get, and this is merely based on what I've heard & read about other wrestlers saying, is that Fritz ultimately put WCCW first. As with any number of old school promoters, Fritz didn't really care about what a wrestler did outside the ring as long as it didn't interfere with the job. On the Triumph and Tragedy of World Class Championship Wrestlng DVD, Bill Irwin said that Fritz would just brush off whenever anyone told him about drug use going on in the locker room.
Fritz struck me as very much an old school, right wing Texan in that he thought it was shameful for a man to show weakness or admit that he needed help, especially when it came to anything drug related. I don't know that for sure, I didn't know the man of course, but it's just the impression I get based on everything I've heard and read about him. I do get the feeling that Fritz wasn't an easy guy to live with or be around. I'm wondering if Doris blamed him for the deaths of so many of their children in some way, might explain why she divorced him in 1992 after being married since 1950.
I read Flair's autobiography years back and Flair's not really all that different from a lot of other major stars who've written such books in that he's a huge mark for himself. Not saying that Flair having a big ego isn't justified, but the problem with having such a big ego is that it usually comes back to bite you in the ass somewhere down the road. Flair saying that Fritz could've saved his sons may very well be Flair talking out of his ass without genuinely knowing all the facts. Just because he hung out with David sometimes and toured with him doesn't mean he's an expert on the behind the scenes Von Erich dynamic.
Fritz struck me as very much an old school, right wing Texan in that he thought it was shameful for a man to show weakness or admit that he needed help, especially when it came to anything drug related. I don't know that for sure, I didn't know the man of course, but it's just the impression I get based on everything I've heard and read about him. I do get the feeling that Fritz wasn't an easy guy to live with or be around. I'm wondering if Doris blamed him for the deaths of so many of their children in some way, might explain why she divorced him in 1992 after being married since 1950.
I read Flair's autobiography years back and Flair's not really all that different from a lot of other major stars who've written such books in that he's a huge mark for himself. Not saying that Flair having a big ego isn't justified, but the problem with having such a big ego is that it usually comes back to bite you in the ass somewhere down the road. Flair saying that Fritz could've saved his sons may very well be Flair talking out of his ass without genuinely knowing all the facts. Just because he hung out with David sometimes and toured with him doesn't mean he's an expert on the behind the scenes Von Erich dynamic.
Regardless of your personal feelings about him, that crap you typed at the end is just wrong. 100% factually incorrect. Get a clue, and stop letting your personal feelings make you type dumb stuff. Nobody has EVER carried a promotion by themselves. Flair was a major star and NEVER fell flat on his face as the top guy. Stop making things up.
Flair didn't have a big ego he was a flat out liar about many issues. Furthermore you don't know why the fritzs divorced so stop throwing out wild accusations.
d_henderson1810
Mid-Card Championship Winner
While Flair wasn't father of the year, let's face it, neither was Fritz Von Erich.
When you are known to be a tyrant with your children, and three of them kill themselves, it doesn't say much about you as a father.
George Steele's Barber
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I think Ted Haggard was a bigger hypocrite. I mean come on. The guy was some big time Christian who went around suckin off male prostitutes and mething it up.
Flair sounds more ignorant to the challenges of parenting. Flair would have been more of a hypocrite if he criticized Von Erich for getting his sons positions in the business that they didn't deserve, like David.
As far as why Von Erich's marriage broke up, it is pretty well known that his wife caught him sucking off Ted Haggard.
Flair sounds more ignorant to the challenges of parenting. Flair would have been more of a hypocrite if he criticized Von Erich for getting his sons positions in the business that they didn't deserve, like David.
As far as why Von Erich's marriage broke up, it is pretty well known that his wife caught him sucking off Ted Haggard.
TheHitMark-SirJoseOle
A Fan Of Wrestling Not Backstage BS
By our very nature, we all have the capacity for hypocrisy, greed, malice and all those other undesirable and nasty qualities we never want to own up to as a whole. Flair's antics and thoughts are no surprise to me, they never have been. Doesn't make me like him any less as a wrestler, he's still one of my favorite performers to watch and he has such a presence, there's no denying it.
But at least the OP here is mentioning something that a lot of IWC people never want to confront and that's that Flair is far from perfect. I've always despised a lot of IWC perceptions. Mind you, I'm not saying this is all IWC members, but many of us as a whole overlook someone's character flaws based on their workrate. Just like Chris Benoit still gets his ass kissed to this very day.
For all the people that say what they say about others in the business like Hulk Hogan and Triple H, Ric Flair is far from anyone to look at differently when talking about his life outside of his character. I mean there was even a period in his career where he was a booker in JCP/WCW and was still wearing the strap. Granted, Flair drew and was the staple of that promotion but for those who criticize guys like Hogan and Triple H for those very same methods, Flair is no different.
At the end of the day, it is what it is. Like I always stand by when I talk to others about professional wrestling, if I can't trust what I read about in the "real world" having much merit due to the parasitic nature of the media and "the court of public opinion", I just take into perspective the asinine remarks of wrestlers that I like and just chalk it up to "Hey, they're human, just like me." Flair's comments about the Von Erich Family put me in that exact frame of mind.
While I love the internet because it brings me together with fans from all over the world to talk about something I used to love as a kid, I lament at times how undermining it can also be, due to threads like this. Not saying you're wrong for posting it OP, it's just that it often brings a lot of moralistic nonsense out of the woodwork.
But at least the OP here is mentioning something that a lot of IWC people never want to confront and that's that Flair is far from perfect. I've always despised a lot of IWC perceptions. Mind you, I'm not saying this is all IWC members, but many of us as a whole overlook someone's character flaws based on their workrate. Just like Chris Benoit still gets his ass kissed to this very day.
For all the people that say what they say about others in the business like Hulk Hogan and Triple H, Ric Flair is far from anyone to look at differently when talking about his life outside of his character. I mean there was even a period in his career where he was a booker in JCP/WCW and was still wearing the strap. Granted, Flair drew and was the staple of that promotion but for those who criticize guys like Hogan and Triple H for those very same methods, Flair is no different.
At the end of the day, it is what it is. Like I always stand by when I talk to others about professional wrestling, if I can't trust what I read about in the "real world" having much merit due to the parasitic nature of the media and "the court of public opinion", I just take into perspective the asinine remarks of wrestlers that I like and just chalk it up to "Hey, they're human, just like me." Flair's comments about the Von Erich Family put me in that exact frame of mind.
While I love the internet because it brings me together with fans from all over the world to talk about something I used to love as a kid, I lament at times how undermining it can also be, due to threads like this. Not saying you're wrong for posting it OP, it's just that it often brings a lot of moralistic nonsense out of the woodwork.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
You have no idea what you are talking about. Flair was close friends with Kerry Von Erich and was understandably upset that Fritz lied and covered up Kerry's issues, ostensibly as much for Kerry's career as his own since Kerry was carrying World Class, which Fritz owned. Flair complained and appealed to Fritz after he sent Kerry to the ring clearly unable to preform which could have injured both of them and was again understandably upset Fritz didn't take action.
Fritz covering for Kerry isn't good, but sending him out to wrestle when he was clearly intoxicated was horrible, and he's lucky no one was severely injured.
Regarding Reid, it was well documented in news reports as well as interviews given by his mom Beth that her and Flair had Ried in rehab to get help. Flair did spend significant money trying to fix Reid's legal woes which may not have been the best thing in retrospect (keeping him from suffering the full legal repurcussions of his actions). After rehab Flair pulled strings to get Reid a job wrestling in Japan, where he would be surrounded by people Flair knew and trusted and separated from the "bad crowd" Reid was associated with in Charlotte. Reid was drug free, responded well to the more disciplined and structured environment in Japan, and won singles championships, doing well with his career. He missed his parents however and wanted to come home. After he came home he fell back in with the wrong crowd even though he was living with both his parents (going back & forth between Flair & Beth so they could keep an eye on him). It is abundantly clear that Flair was trying to help his son however.
It's unfortunate what happened in both instances as people died, but Fritz covered up Kerry's issues in part for profit, Flair put Reid in rehab and moved him out of the country to get him away from the negative influences that contributed to his issues.
Mid Atlantic was extremely popular, and routinely outdrew WWE in the NC, SC, GA, FLA. TENN, & MIS areas plus was extremely competitive in major cities like CHI, PHI, and PGH (all WWE strong holds) during the mid to late 80s wrestling expansion. WCW SAT NITE on TBS was the highest rated wrestling show on cable TV most of that time, outdrawing WWE on USA. Flair vs Sting on TBS airing opposite WM IV was so successful it was estimated it cost Vince & WWE over one million dollars in lost PPV revenue, Vince was so furious he threatened to pull his future PPV events from any cable operator who wouldn't pressure Ted Turner not to allow WCW to air live events opposite his PPVs ever again. Fair was the centerpiece the entire time.
The first the Starrcades were drawing nearly a million dollars in live gates at a time tickets cost roughly $10. That was bigger than anything Vince was doing and was the inspiration for the creation of W-Mania. Again, Flair was the centerpiece.
Flair was so integral and popular to Jim Crockett's success (you do realize the difference between Mid Atlantiic & Jim Crockett Promotions/NWA vs WCW right ????? Or do you need a complete history lesson) that Ted Turner refused to buy the company unless Flair was signed (he was negotiating with WWE at the time).
When The Wrestling Observer researched and ranked the Top 10 Draws by year over the past three decades in all of pro wrestling in the US Flair was either #1 or # 2 every year 1982-87, 1992, 1994-95, and was in the Top 10 1988-89, 91, 96, and 99 (he missed most of 97 with injuries and 98 in a contract dispute). He was ranked in the Top 10 multiple times during his last run in WWE as well. The only person with more Top 2 and Top 10 rankings during the same time was Hogan.
Hart was the top guy in WWE most of 93-95 yet Flair ranked as a bigger draw than him in 94 and 95 nationwide.
The last time Monday Nitro beat RAW in the ratings ? Sept 98 when Flair returned to TV.
As for Bischoff, he got his promotion in WCW thanks to Flair, and it was Flair who was integral in bringing in Savage & Hogan to WCW. Without Flair they don't sign, because he was the "draw" that they could make money wrestling. Hogan even admitted in his biography that while the money was good the draw was in wrestling Flair since WWE didn't fully exploit their potential. Bischoff these days is very complimentary of Flair's contributions to the industry and WCW in particular. Of course, outside of Hogan it's hard to find anyone who worked with Bischoff who says a lot complimentary of him (Foley, Jericho, and others have been highly critical of him, as has Austin just for reference).
Dusty drew because of Flair....he was never given the chance to carry the company because Jim Crockett knew as much as he liked him he couldn't carry the company long term as champ, which is why the title went from Race to Flair. Flair was the guy who got Sting over with fans and established him as a legit main eventer, just as Hogan had done with Randy Savage a few years earlier (you are aware of Savage's run vs Hogan in 1986, their first real fued that established Savage as WWE's top heel right ???). Flair is also credited with making Lex Luger a top star, both in helping to train him in the ring and on the mic as well as getting him over with fans.
Sting even to this day gives Flair the credit for making him a star and giving him the career he has had.
Dusty calls Flair not only the greatest of all time but the greatest he ever wrestled.
Hogan has repeatedly listed Flair among the biggest stars and best opponents he ever had.
As for that episode of Celebrity Wife Swap, you OBVIOUSLY weren't paying attention, NONE OF THEM WERE HIS KIDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Flair is no longer married, he is dating full time a woman who worked as valet in the wrestling industry in the 1990s, they've been friends for many years, and the kids on the show WERE HERS FROM HER PREVIOUS MARRIAGE!!!!!!! In fact, that was stated through out the episode, that she wanted Flair to be more involved with them and he addressed that while he liked her kids it reminded him too much of when his kids were little and how much he misses the time he spent with them when they were young (they are all full grown now).
Flair's first DVD set by WWE was the fastest selling DVD in WWE history when it was first released, eclipsing any non W-Mania set they ever did. You would have to "draw" to have that appeal.
Flair's biography was a Top 5 NY Times Best Seller, one of the best showing for any wrestling biography all time (better than Hogan's by the way).
Even Hart has walked back many of his more vitriolic comments on his relationship with Hart in recent years, they even teamed up with this summer's Ice Bucket Challenge fundraising campaign (you did know that right ??) - Hart has not backed down on his vitriol towards Hogan & HHH though (I guess you think they are both over rated).
Some of your criticisms are ridiculous. Sting & RR Express had their biggest moments as "draws" against Flair. I can imagine you saying that Andre The Giant was over rated as a draw too, giving him no credit for the massive live attendance of WM III or the ratings for his 1988 TV Match on NBC, both against Hogan. I guess you think Hogan could have drawn 10 plus million viewers to watch him wrestled Junk Yard Dog or packed 93,000 in the Silverdome main eventing against Koko B Ware. It takes two guys to draw, not one, and a lot of guys had their biggest moments against Flair, the only thing consistent is that they were all big moments for Flair.
BTW did you know that the AUG 94 Clash Of Champions Match between Flair & Hogan was the most watched TV match on cable for nearly 5 years, that it wasn't beaten till Goldberg vs DDP on Nitro Oct 98 ?
But perhaps the worst part of your un-informed rant is you claim to have watched celebrity wife swap BUT NEVER REALIZED THOSE WERENT FLAIR's KIDS EVEN THOUGH IT WAS DISCUSSED THROUGH OUT THE EPISODE!
That would be like watching last year's W-Mainia and not realizing D. Bryan won the WWE Title. That lack of intelligence makes any argument you make suspect at best.
JoeyJoeJoe
Championship Contender
None of these guys are saints, and I always laugh when someone writes "X is an asshole, just go ask Y". Honestly, MOST of them are assholes. Flair, Von Erich, Hart, Bischoff...I didn't hear a single name there that didn't have an overinflated ego. If wrestling has done anything, it's create a trail of very damaged people.
As for whether Flair drew...that's just patently false. Again, that's the ultimate back stage dig, right? Saying someone didn't put butts in seats is the big putdown in wrestling. Doesn't mean it's true because "butts in seats" is a pretty subjective marker but it's demonstrably wrong in Flair's case. The Road Warriors and Dusty Rhodes weren't always a part of JCP. Flair was the top dog in the Mid-Atlantic area going back to the late 70s, and was the primary headliner. There was a reason they put the belt on him: Flair drew. (This isn't to say the Road Warriors and Rhodes didn't bring their own crowds too, they certainly did.)
As for whether Flair drew...that's just patently false. Again, that's the ultimate back stage dig, right? Saying someone didn't put butts in seats is the big putdown in wrestling. Doesn't mean it's true because "butts in seats" is a pretty subjective marker but it's demonstrably wrong in Flair's case. The Road Warriors and Dusty Rhodes weren't always a part of JCP. Flair was the top dog in the Mid-Atlantic area going back to the late 70s, and was the primary headliner. There was a reason they put the belt on him: Flair drew. (This isn't to say the Road Warriors and Rhodes didn't bring their own crowds too, they certainly did.)
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Dusty (with Jim Crcokett's approval) was booker through almost of Flair's tenure in the 1980s. In 1989 Flair was part of a committee on booking but was a "junior member" behind Jim Cornette and Jim Ross (oversaw by non wrestling industry TBS employee Jim Herd).
Flair did have "veto" power of title changes in 1990. When he was booked to lose the title to Sting at WrestleWar in Feb he vetoed - Only because Sting was injured and would be out for a few months and Herd (allegedly angry over Sting getting hurt) wanted to change course and down size Sting and give his push to Lex Luger. Flair vetoed, arguing it was better to wait for Sting for to return and that draw of his return(given how much time they invested in 1989 building to Sting's title win) would be bigger than any random out of nowhere change they could make. To this day Luger has never publicly complained about the call and as soon as Sting was healthy Flair put him over and made him champ (and lost his veto power and any participation on the booking committee as part of the deal going forward, a big sacrifice to make).
Hogan was in charge of booking in 1996 (with Bischoff and some help from Terry Taylor & Kevin Sullivan) when WCW shifted gears and made Flair champ for most of the early months of 1996 while starting to compete head to head Nitro vs Raw.
This is just a very asinine statement. Flair had a big part in Mid Atlantic's success. You say Sting was a big star, well who made him a star? "Nature Boy" Ric Flair. Go ask Sting, he'll tell you that himself. Without Ric Flair, there is no Sting. Without Ric Flair, JCP may not have been as popular and prominent as it was. On a different note, it's, "then Ric Flair", not, "than Ric Flair". If you're gonna run down someone else, run a grammar check so you appear smart.
As far as Flair as a person goes, that's something I prefer to leave alone. My cousin played hockey with his step son in the Charlotte area, and didn't get a very good impression whenever he saw Flair. But he was just being the Nature Boy. And whether that's good or bad, isn't my place to speak. However, don't judge him based on a reality TV show. Reality shows are more scripted than pro wrestling. As far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely no reality in a reality show. Just look at anything that happens on Total Divas. Super scripted.
d_henderson1810
Mid-Card Championship Winner
You forgot to mention that he participated in one of the most legendary feuds in history against Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, and their 60-minute match is considered the stuff of Legends.
What you posted isn't entirely true, Bischoff has said in recent interviews that Flair was crucial in the time that WCW was winning the ratings war and that Hogan never would have came to WCW had Flair not been there. He is also credited as being the best of all time by a lot of major wrestlers, from Triple H on down.
You can't judge him from an episode of Wife Swap, who knows how it was edited to portray him. Yes the guy has had several failed marriages but that's his personal life, has nothing to do with wrestling.
You can't judge him from an episode of Wife Swap, who knows how it was edited to portray him. Yes the guy has had several failed marriages but that's his personal life, has nothing to do with wrestling.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Did you even see the Wife Swap episode ? Flair isn't married to Wendy, they are dating, the kid are hers from a prior marriage. Flair was never portrayed as acting bad towards them in any way, it was portrayed that Wendy wanted to do more activities with Flair geared specifically towards the kids because while he was nice to them, he didn't spend much time specifically with them. Flair stated he liked her kids but being around younger children made him miss all the activities he did with his own kids when they were that age, which it appeared made him feel old (Go figure).
As the episode went on though he did start playing with kids more and taking them places and admitted how much fun he had playing ball, etc with them.
Considering that he isn't married to Wendy and they aren't his kids I hardly think that was a poor behavioral portrayl of him. Of course, the guy who started this thread claimed he did watch the episode which you may not have and was so clueless he missed the whole THESE ARE NOT HIS CHILDREN AND THIS ISNT HIS WIFE aspect of the storyline.
On a side note, one can hardly blame you I you didn't watch Celebrity Wife Swap, I it wasn't for Flair & Piper being on I wouldn't have tuned in either, just sayin
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
What is with these forums lately, there are SO many of these appearing... is it the same guy getting banned and using different names? Or is it just the standards have REALLY dropped?
As to the topic.
To even throw that at Flair is pretty damn sick. If you read the book then you will also have read the segments about the mental place he was at while it was being written, that he was regaining a lot of of lost "mojo" and was offloading as part of that process. There was no way in hell he would have thought what happened to Fritz would happen to him or he'd have wished it on them and all he could do was offer his viewpoint on it at that time, that Reid later fell into the same trap as Kerry is tragic but saying Flair is a hypocrite is totally wrong.
They had entirely different parenting lives for one as did most of that generation to a man... Read any book about anyone from that period and you get the same story, guys with families on the road constantly cos that was how the business was. They missed out formative moments and found that the partying/road life was in many ways easier to deal with than domestic lives. Look at the Rhodes boys... Dustin and Cody had totally different upbringings by the same dad, Dusty was on the road when Dustin was in his formative years but retired when Cody was...
You say Ric was "too busy being the Nature Boy" cos he was... he had a role to maintain that paid for his kids, when he went to the WWF that role intensified, more dates, more work, more building of the image... In Reid's case Ric would have been there far more for the others.
Fritz on the other hand had his OWN territory, he had his kids 24/7 much as Stu did up in Calgary... Look at Wrestling with Shadows and Bret's allusion to the Electric Chair he had there and his childhood and he was one of 12...but not forced into his life, just as the Flair kids weren't.
With the Von Erichs it was intensified, they were thrust into the spotlight from the youngest of ages without a choice... whether it was in their best interests or not and each successive brother had the baggage of the previous ones, the pressure to be as good. Flair may have been wrong to outright say "Fritz could have stopped it" cos no parent can "stop" addiction, only help to beat it but Flair is clearly saying in the book that Fritz didn't want to know/confront it which is enabling.
In Flair's case once his WWF stint was over he clearly did become more of a family man, his dispute with Bischoff began over a wrestling tournament of Reid's and David became part of WCW to spend time with his father. Even now, Ric is spending time with his daughter and helping her career. He has struck me as a guy who appreciates the 2nd chance he got with his kids, even Reid and accepts he wasn't there as much as he should have been, cos he couldn't... but he helps them now as best he can. Also look at his own story... this is a guy who was literally stolen from his birth parents. So that would also affect your parenting going forward. He had great adoptive parents as he says but anyone raised by someone who isn't their own blood may find some difficulty raising their own, as they haven't experienced that love for themselves.
In Reid's case, as another poster mentioned, he went out of his way to get Reid help and sadly it didn't work... Fritz didn't do that for Kerry, he just buried his head in the sand, even when it cost him his foot and his other children began to take their own lives. It stikes a chord with me cos we had similar in my own family, my own dad telling me "I never saw this coming" when my brother was suffering with a bad mental illness...and I had to say "I told you about this..." It's the hardest thing in the world to tell someone they should have, could have done something in those after it's gone wrong...
No wrestler of that era was a model parent. Some got out sooner than others or reformed but they all had demons and issues. In the main, the ones who did or who came from larger families did better, like the Rotundas or the Fatu/Usos. While their dads were on the road, they had uncles or grandparents etc who were in the biz around them to look up to. Those who didn't fare differently, Randy Orton for example will never be called a model citizen and with one or two different forks in the road taken could have been a David Von Erich... but Flair was a big part of keeping Orton straight and not letting him go the way of Kerry or David...
Flair likely regrets saying those things but he felt them at the time, if he ever saw Kevin he'd probably apologise and they'd hug and that'd be it cos if anyone gets Ric's pain it'd be Kevin and vice versa.
Whatever you say about decisions Flair has made or being overrated, there is one thing you can NEVER take away... EVERYTHING he did in the ring, he did after a plane crash that would have killed you or I, we would not have walked again much less won 16 World titles. Sure his matches are repetitive and he had to land on the opposite side to protect the injured back... He's probably not technically classed as disabled from that but anyone who surives that kind of ordeal with injuries and conquers them deserves respect. He could go 60 minutes several times a week, party all night after and get up and do it again when by all rights he should have been a cripple.
That he was able to become "The Man" means he gets a pass on ANYTHING he wrote that later "bites him in the ass" from me. Show some damn respect... no Flair, you are not here on these forums cos Wrestling wouldn't be a "thing" like it is... as the man himself says... "Like it...don't like it... but learn to live with it!"
As to the topic.
To even throw that at Flair is pretty damn sick. If you read the book then you will also have read the segments about the mental place he was at while it was being written, that he was regaining a lot of of lost "mojo" and was offloading as part of that process. There was no way in hell he would have thought what happened to Fritz would happen to him or he'd have wished it on them and all he could do was offer his viewpoint on it at that time, that Reid later fell into the same trap as Kerry is tragic but saying Flair is a hypocrite is totally wrong.
They had entirely different parenting lives for one as did most of that generation to a man... Read any book about anyone from that period and you get the same story, guys with families on the road constantly cos that was how the business was. They missed out formative moments and found that the partying/road life was in many ways easier to deal with than domestic lives. Look at the Rhodes boys... Dustin and Cody had totally different upbringings by the same dad, Dusty was on the road when Dustin was in his formative years but retired when Cody was...
You say Ric was "too busy being the Nature Boy" cos he was... he had a role to maintain that paid for his kids, when he went to the WWF that role intensified, more dates, more work, more building of the image... In Reid's case Ric would have been there far more for the others.
Fritz on the other hand had his OWN territory, he had his kids 24/7 much as Stu did up in Calgary... Look at Wrestling with Shadows and Bret's allusion to the Electric Chair he had there and his childhood and he was one of 12...but not forced into his life, just as the Flair kids weren't.
With the Von Erichs it was intensified, they were thrust into the spotlight from the youngest of ages without a choice... whether it was in their best interests or not and each successive brother had the baggage of the previous ones, the pressure to be as good. Flair may have been wrong to outright say "Fritz could have stopped it" cos no parent can "stop" addiction, only help to beat it but Flair is clearly saying in the book that Fritz didn't want to know/confront it which is enabling.
In Flair's case once his WWF stint was over he clearly did become more of a family man, his dispute with Bischoff began over a wrestling tournament of Reid's and David became part of WCW to spend time with his father. Even now, Ric is spending time with his daughter and helping her career. He has struck me as a guy who appreciates the 2nd chance he got with his kids, even Reid and accepts he wasn't there as much as he should have been, cos he couldn't... but he helps them now as best he can. Also look at his own story... this is a guy who was literally stolen from his birth parents. So that would also affect your parenting going forward. He had great adoptive parents as he says but anyone raised by someone who isn't their own blood may find some difficulty raising their own, as they haven't experienced that love for themselves.
In Reid's case, as another poster mentioned, he went out of his way to get Reid help and sadly it didn't work... Fritz didn't do that for Kerry, he just buried his head in the sand, even when it cost him his foot and his other children began to take their own lives. It stikes a chord with me cos we had similar in my own family, my own dad telling me "I never saw this coming" when my brother was suffering with a bad mental illness...and I had to say "I told you about this..." It's the hardest thing in the world to tell someone they should have, could have done something in those after it's gone wrong...
No wrestler of that era was a model parent. Some got out sooner than others or reformed but they all had demons and issues. In the main, the ones who did or who came from larger families did better, like the Rotundas or the Fatu/Usos. While their dads were on the road, they had uncles or grandparents etc who were in the biz around them to look up to. Those who didn't fare differently, Randy Orton for example will never be called a model citizen and with one or two different forks in the road taken could have been a David Von Erich... but Flair was a big part of keeping Orton straight and not letting him go the way of Kerry or David...
Flair likely regrets saying those things but he felt them at the time, if he ever saw Kevin he'd probably apologise and they'd hug and that'd be it cos if anyone gets Ric's pain it'd be Kevin and vice versa.
Whatever you say about decisions Flair has made or being overrated, there is one thing you can NEVER take away... EVERYTHING he did in the ring, he did after a plane crash that would have killed you or I, we would not have walked again much less won 16 World titles. Sure his matches are repetitive and he had to land on the opposite side to protect the injured back... He's probably not technically classed as disabled from that but anyone who surives that kind of ordeal with injuries and conquers them deserves respect. He could go 60 minutes several times a week, party all night after and get up and do it again when by all rights he should have been a cripple.
That he was able to become "The Man" means he gets a pass on ANYTHING he wrote that later "bites him in the ass" from me. Show some damn respect... no Flair, you are not here on these forums cos Wrestling wouldn't be a "thing" like it is... as the man himself says... "Like it...don't like it... but learn to live with it!"
Oh my God you make him sound like he can walk on water or something. Yes he deserves respect, but holy shit, he's not the second coming, he's lucky, very lucky. Others have walked away from accidents that should have killed them, he's not the first and won't be the last.
And he gets a pass on ANYTHING, so that means he can pretty much go out and kill babies or old women does it? Sound ridiculous when you think of it that way doesn't it?
I respect his career, a career that should have been over at least 10 years ago. Some learned to walk away, he hasn't and he should.
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
Did I not say "he gets a pass on anything he says that might bite him in the ass later...." Not murdering babies... like I say things have really gone downhill and yes it is ridiculous that you have said that, clearly not reading my comment or worse not "getting it" and making yourself look a bit of a tool.
That you are replying in that way means you clearly missed the points I made, the crash he survived was not a "minor thing", he didn't "walk away" from it, indeed he was told he might not walk again so that IS pretty damn unique.
He is not the 2nd coming, the messiah, or even a particularly naughty boy (Monty Python FTW) but he deserves more respect than you or the the OP seem to want to give him. It's cool to bash Ric Flair cos he's old, made some mistakes and you are likely too young to remember his prime. But it isn't cool... I've been called a "hipster" on here and this kind of theory, that Flair is overrated is the worst "hipster" crap I see on this forum.
The thread was not about his career lasting 10 years too long, it was an attack on comments he made years ago that later turned out to be unfortunate rather than hypocritical. We've all said things that years later turned out to be foolish, maybe in years to come your response will be something you look at and say "Wow, wish I'd worded that differently" but probably not.
The point is Flair deserves the UTMOST respect from anyone on these forums for the part he has played in the business that you are here to talk about... my comment stands... no Flair, no business. no forum for you to spout your opinions on... not in this form. He doesn't have to be your favourite and by all means criticize his latter life choices if you are sure yours are/will be better but don't blame the guy for doing what he loved as long as possible.
That you are replying in that way means you clearly missed the points I made, the crash he survived was not a "minor thing", he didn't "walk away" from it, indeed he was told he might not walk again so that IS pretty damn unique.
He is not the 2nd coming, the messiah, or even a particularly naughty boy (Monty Python FTW) but he deserves more respect than you or the the OP seem to want to give him. It's cool to bash Ric Flair cos he's old, made some mistakes and you are likely too young to remember his prime. But it isn't cool... I've been called a "hipster" on here and this kind of theory, that Flair is overrated is the worst "hipster" crap I see on this forum.
The thread was not about his career lasting 10 years too long, it was an attack on comments he made years ago that later turned out to be unfortunate rather than hypocritical. We've all said things that years later turned out to be foolish, maybe in years to come your response will be something you look at and say "Wow, wish I'd worded that differently" but probably not.
The point is Flair deserves the UTMOST respect from anyone on these forums for the part he has played in the business that you are here to talk about... my comment stands... no Flair, no business. no forum for you to spout your opinions on... not in this form. He doesn't have to be your favourite and by all means criticize his latter life choices if you are sure yours are/will be better but don't blame the guy for doing what he loved as long as possible.
Oh please to young to remember his prime. I used to go to the old Maple Leaf Gardens in my teens to watch Maple Leaf Wrestling, Tiger Jeet Singh, Ricky Steamboat, The Sheik with Abullah Farouk and a young, very young Ric Flair. He was always a good wrestler, but a douchebag, and to some he still is.
Please point to where I said I didn't respect him in my original post, I don't believe I said that anywhere. And yes my point still stands, he recovered and walked away from a plane crash, and so have others and they will do again. He's not special cause he did. He's a very very lucky human being.
And I've noticed that your way of dealing with people who disagree with you is to call them names. Today I'm a tool, yesterday someone else was a prick. If you can't post here without someone taking another side of it, and you getting your panties in a bind, then that says a lot about you.
You can respect Ric Flair till the cows come home for all anyone cares, but don't expect us to all follow behind you. Oh and I'm sure all the other greats Hogan, Savage, Steamboat, Austin will thank you for single handily saying Ric Flair is the only reason we have wrestling today, and a forum to post on about it.
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
I can handle disagreement fine. But when people clearly don't read the point and misquote as you did, then yeah.... You look foolish and get called that by me... I lose cos I use a name...The guy yesterday was downright disrespectful and also via the rep system and his post was close to infraction.. add the comments you didn't see so yes he was/is in my book what I called him.
I also didn't say Flair was the only reason... Again twisting the quote or at best misquoting...
I also didn't say Flair was the only reason... Again twisting the quote or at best misquoting...
flaircokenotstril
Dark Match Jobber
Naturally... I resent this thread.
*Flair struts off the stage*
*Flair struts off the stage*
Bockwinkel's Class
An Entity Of Existence
If you took all the douchebags out of the wrestling industry there wouldn't be anyone left to even HAVE a wrestling industry.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Well, although Hogan sounded awfully conceited in his book, Flair (along with Rock) was about the only person he put on par with him. To this day Hogan has always praised Flair's work ethic & ability.
Savage numerous times listed Flair among his favorite opponents and praised his work ethic, talent, and dedication, even in some of the last interviews he gave in his life time (some of which were featured on this site after his death).
Steamboat has flat out said Flair was The Greatest Of All Time. And a good friend.
Austin pretty much echoed Steamboat, many times over.
Austin has also stated in interiews that during their joint time in WWE Flair was one of the most accessible performers for charity work, particularly Make A Wish, and even told a story about how Austin called Flair last minute To see if he could meet him at the hospital where Austin was scheduled to visit a dying child because behind Austin the child had listed Flair among his most favorite wrestlers. Flair cancelled his plans and spent the day at the hospital with the child according to Austin.
It was documented on this site as well as on TV when Flair visited a local South Carolina hospital, ostensibly to visit one sick child, but stayed the entire day, meeting anyone who wanted, going from ward to ward, posing for pictures and signing autographs, back in 2007. The only time Flair even remotely seemed upset or disinterested was when a reporter asked him about Chris Benoit and Flair insisted he wouldnt discuss that.
I met Flair I Pittsburgh when he was making appearances on behalf of local childrens charity here. He was in WCW back then (1994, 1995, & 1996) but routinely returned each year for the dinner (he wasnt getting paid either). Tickets for the event were sold to the public to raise money for the charity and Flair was always heavily advertised. While most of the celebrities and athletes who attended were gracious before the festivities in meeting fans (as was advertised) Flair was the only one who routinely stayed after the event, posing for pictures, signing autographs, etc, hours after the event. This was even noted in our local paper one year.
Flair was well known for accommodating fans in Charlotte where he lived. The Charlotte Observer in 1999 ran an article about how Flair spent an entire evening buying drinks and signing autographs at a local restaurant once after a dinner with his wife (he promised the staff he would buy them a drink if they gave him & his wife privacy during dinner, then he extended the offer to any fans in the restaurant who wanted to join them).
Does the online community give Flair some sort of pass ? Not that Im aware of, his infedility has been well documented and admitted by himself) as well as his hard partying lifestyle. Just as Steve Austins multiple domestic violence arrests and quitting WWE over match finishes has been well documented. Just as Hulk Hogans infedelity, alleged numerous instances of unsavory backstage politicking and the horrible incident involving his son killing someone has been documented, while we are at lets mention allegations of Brett Hart sleeping with Sunny and pretty much every terrible thing involving politics, drugs, and alcohol abuse related to 1990s Shawn Michaels. Exactly when ANY of these guys got a pass Im not sure.
In the end, you are entitled to your own opinion. That doesnt make you entitled to insult R.Traylor in his responses (although Im sure he can defend himself, he certainly has when he disagreed with me in other forums, though hes never been ignorant). Also, it appears youve never actually met Flair himself and havent paid much attention to his reputation for being accessible and accommodating to fans, makes me wonder exactly how you can form an opinion with seemingly so little information.
As for the original post that started this ludicrous thread, is this the same guy who routinely starts the "Austin is great....everyone else was (insert vulgar insult here)" threads that keep popping up, some people need to grow up.
Hmmm hold on wait a minute, where did I insult R. Taylor, and where did I say that Flair's career shouldn't be respected? Please point out in any of my posts where I said that. That's just for my own information. I was the one who was insulted, not him.
And for forming an opinion, I think I know enough about him to form an opinion. I've met him on a number of occasion's and while he was never anything but pleasant, and that means what. Of course he's nice to fans when you're at a meet and greet, all wrestlers are. I don't care about his family life, or how he treats other wrestlers, or how he gets along with anyone. I see Ric Flair as a wrestler, plain and simple.
Did he make mistakes, sure we all do, we're human. Did he pay for those probably, and again we all pay in some form. But just because he's Ric Flair, nice guy, and whatever doesn't mean the sun shines out his ass. I have already said I respect the career he's managed to achieve, but that's about the end of it. And he should have retired a good 10 years ago, yes he should have, a lot of wrestlers outstay their sell by date, and that is in no way, shape or form an insult, that's an observation.
It is sad that Von Erich and Reid have passed away due to drugs.
But aren't you a little harsh on Flair? I'll give you he is over rated, but he is a 16 time World Heavyweight champion, he lives and breathes wrestling. Although he gets hated on because of him wrestling for TNA when he was supposed to be retired, he really does love wrestling. He likes the spotlight which is too old for now.
