Is Kurt Angle a Bad Heel?

[Uncle Sam]

Slyfox, Slyfox696 - just so he can find it (he likes searching his own name...apparently).

I've discussed this with Sly on multiple (well, two) occasions. Now his reasoning for Kurt Angle being a bad heel, or at least having bad heel psychology once in the ring, is that he barely alters his move set from when he is a face, and used those same high impact moves as always which causes the crowd to pop for him.

Personally, I don't feel that Kurt is a bad heel at all. I feel that he's simply not a conventional heel. Now I'm not usually one to appreciate someone going outside set conventions - or maybe I am, who knows? - but I find Angle's heel psychology, or lack thereof, to be something far more interesting than your standard "have your ass handed to you, lose by DQ or use a dirty tactic to win."

I feel that, with the exception of John Cena, most wrestlers have benefited hugely from feuding with Kurt Angle; with him as the heel of course. We've already established that Angle barely alters his behaviour in ring between a heel and a face. Yes, this does make the crowd pop for him. However, it also does something which in my opinion is just as, if not much more important - it makes him intimidating. This guy by not altering his move set has made himself one of the most threatening heels in the business. He's still the bad guy, and everyone knows that, even if they are cheering for him. This is why his matches with Shawn Michaels are so popular - the heel could win, and he could easily badly damage your favourite superstar in the process. He's a ruthless bastard, and he'll gladly break someone's ankle or end their career just to get the win. He's dangerous, and his opponent just comes off the better for beating him. The face goes over a heel that's ruthless, despised and reviled...yet respected; like Hitler, I guess. Or... you get a far more interesting phenomenon, just like WrestleMania 21, you get the heel winning in a big match situation.

In summary, Kurt Angle isn't a bad heel. He's unconventional, cut from a different mold. He's dangerous and he's exciting to watch. And he's all the better for it.

 

[Slyfox696]

Slyfox, Slyfox696 - just so he can find it (he likes searching his own name...apparently).

I laughed.

I've discussed this with Sly on multiple (well, two) occasions. Now his reasoning for Kurt Angle being a bad heel, or at least having bad heel psychology once in the ring, is that he barely alters his move set from when he is a face, and used those same high impact moves as always which causes the crowd to pop for him.

Personally, I don't feel that Kurt is a bad heel at all. I feel that he's simply not a conventional heel. Now I'm not usually one to appreciate someone going outside set conventions - or maybe I am, who knows? - but I find Angle's heel psychology, or lack there of, to be something far more interesting than your standard "have your ass handed to you, lose by DQ or use a dirty tactic to win."

I feel that, with the exception of John Cena, most wrestlers have benefited hugely from feuding with Kurt Angle; with him as the heel of course. We've already established that Angle barely alters his behaviour in ring between a heel and a face. Yes, this does make the crowd pop for him. However, it also does something which in my opinion is just as, if not much more important - it makes him intimidating. This guy by not altering his move set has made himself one of the most threatening heels in the business. He's still the bad guy, and everyone knows that, even if they are cheering for him. This is why his matches with Shawn Michaels are so popular - the heel could win, and he could easily badly damage your favourite superstar in the process. He's a ruthless bastard, and he'll gladly break someone's ankle or end their career just to get the win. He's dangerous, and his opponent just comes off the better for beating him. He goes over a heel that's ruthless, despised and reviled...yet respected; like Hitler, I guess. Or... you get a far more interesting phenomenon, just like WrestleMania 21, you get the heel winning in a big match situation.

In summary, Kurt Angle isn't a bad heel. He's unconventional, cut from a different mold. He's dangerous and he's exciting to watch. And he's all the better for it.

The heel isn't supposed to be exciting or entertaining (on conscious level). He's supposed to make the face be the exciting and entertaining one.

The whole point of being a "heel" is to get people to not like you. The term "heel" is not exclusive to wrestling. A heel is a term you can find in every day life. A "heel" refers to someone who is dishonest and contemptible. Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, he's not really contemptible.

Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, that means he's not doing his job properly. A heel is there to make faces look good. He is there to give the fans a reason to support the face. He is the "Evil" to the face wrestler's "Good". And, people almost always want Good to triumph Evil. And if both guys aren't playing their part of the story, than the story loses it's appeal.

Kurt Angle is a bad heel, and an average worker overall.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I laughed.

That's my job, or so it seems judging by your reply.

The heel isn't supposed to be exciting or entertaining (on conscious level). He's supposed to make the face be the exciting and entertaining one.

The heel isn't meant to be conscious to the fact that he's entertaining, or the viewer isn't meant to be? I mean, Triple H is entertaining, Edge is entertaining. Maybe not by their movesets alone, but on many other levels - Triple H in particular.

The whole point of being a "heel" is to get people to not like you. The term "heel" is not exclusive to wrestling. A heel is a term you can find in every day life. A "heel" refers to someone who is dishonest and contemptible. Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, he's not really contemptible.

Thing is, I've never really seen a heel that I've truly hated, or really disliked. That could be because I'm an IWC fan and thus kayfabe is lost on me. Besides, fans still want the face to go over Angle anyway, the exception being Cena. Don't make me make an example of the Michaels feud any further, please.

Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, that means he's not doing his job properly. A heel is there to make faces look good. He is there to give the fans a reason to support the face. He is the "Evil" to the face wrestler's "Good". And, people almost always want Good to triumph Evil. And if both guys aren't playing their part of the story, than the story loses it's appeal.

But Kurt is still the evil, he's just a very dangerous evil. Like Hitler, as I've already said. I should probably stop using that comparison. Beating Kurt makes the face look good for the same reason beating Triple H or the Great Khali makes the face look good, because they've toppled an established, dangerous and (in Triple H's case, at least) respected heel.

Kurt Angle is a bad heel, and an average worker overall.

How very dare you!

 

[STENA]

I fell kurt is a great heel outside of the ring he gets the most heat and the loudest you suck chants I think his great cuz he gets heat as a heel yet still great in the ring there r very little reactions from the fans to the tna stars but witout saying anything angle gets loud boo's n you suk chants so his a good heel and how can he be an average worker his a great worker great in ring and on the mic

 

[MattButcher]

I think that the terminology of face and heel is no longer adequate to discuss the full spectrum of what's been going on in professional wrestling for the last twenty years or so.

Hulk Hogan was the biggest face on the planet, but he still used a closed fist and raked the eyes and all the heelish stuff he was doing in the AWA. Austin didn't change his move set dramatically when he moved from heel to face. New Jack was a huge face in ECW and specialized in staple-gunning people in the head. There are tons of examples.

Once a performer reaches that main event level, they begin to transcend the simple heel/face dichotomy. I think that Kurt can draw heat and act heelish during tv, but who would be happy shelling out money for a ppv where he performs poorly. I don't care what kind of scoundrel Angle has been acting like on tv, when I sit down to a main event match, I expect a lot from him and he often delivers.

 

[Greenlight13]

True heels and faces are pretty much dead these days, Edge gets cheers and laughs from time to time because let's face it, he's good at being bad and we can appreciate it, like how Jack Sparrow is a deplorable human being but we love him for it.

To say when a heel gets cheers he isnt doing his job right is stupid, when someone you dont like does something cool you cheer, like at a sports game, if the away team do something truly amazing, regardless of them being the opponent, you clap and applaud it, so when the heel leaps to the top rope and belly-to-belly suplexes someone, it should invoke the same reaction.

What is wrong with a heel who is just damn good in the ring but is an ass, do they have to be boring and cheat every second of the match? Like someone said, Angle is good because you believe he is a bad, bad human being who in a big match environment can just take anyone out. Look at Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Mysterio, Guerrero and his many other victims. The match is coming to an end, and Angle begins to counter out of anything you throw at him and gets that Ankle Lock wrenched in and no matter what you do he isnt letting go. You know it is over and you respect him for it even if you wanted the guy in question to kick his ass.

 

[D.Miller]

The heel isn't supposed to be exciting or entertaining (on conscious level). He's supposed to make the face be the exciting and entertaining one.

The whole point of being a "heel" is to get people to not like you. The term "heel" is not exclusive to wrestling. A heel is a term you can find in every day life. A "heel" refers to someone who is dishonest and contemptible. Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, he's not really contemptible.

Thus, anytime a heel gets cheered, that means he's not doing his job properly. A heel is there to make faces look good. He is there to give the fans a reason to support the face. He is the "Evil" to the face wrestler's "Good". And, people almost always want Good to triumph Evil. And if both guys aren't playing their part of the story, than the story loses it's appeal.

Kurt Angle is a bad heel, and an average worker overall.

The whole point of the heel wrestling terminology is for a character to be utterly disliked by all the fans and draw heel heat by conducting all things dirty or misappropriate or by beating on their favorites. And the job of heel character is to make out the "face" character as the innocent and also allow him to shine in the eyes of the beholders. Anytime a heel is cheered by a crowd, they're not exactly doing a bad heel job, because you must understand that there are some heels like even Triple H back in his heel time, who was constantly cheered out to the arena even though he was a major heel. Some heels will just get pops if the majority of fans mark out for that one individual. Hell, wasn't even a "heel" Edge cheered down to his Rumble match with Mysterio and yet he was way over as a great heel? That's my point.

Now, back on Angle and hold the phone, was that such an insulting misjudgement of Angle or what? Sure, Angle isn't the perfect heel and actually I'd take him more for a "tweener" if you ask me. A tweener which means he's not a "face" or "heel" but in which does whatever he pleases whether the fans are behind him or not.

Now, everyone in the Impact Zone are always hyped and excited once Angle comes down the tunnel. Thus, it's not exactly an easy task of getting the fans to boo him out of the arena once he steps foot into it because everyone loves Angle, he does cool things and the guy has great ability much like Edge or better, Triple H.

But as a heel, Angle was considerably more successful in the WWE. Always a great winer and an in-your-face type of guy when he got his way or when trying to prove a point. His "You Suck" theme also enabled fanatics to chant those very two words, "You Suck".

But to where you ever went so wrong to dearfully state that Angle is an average worker? You've definitely passed your place man. You have misevaluated the talent of Angle. Angle is a phenomenal worker in TNA, he was even better in the WWE but his condition caught up to him and he needed to settle in a place that he wouldn't be injured much and wouldn't have to excessively travel so he could spend time with the wife. But look, he still delivers as a great worker. He wouldn't have been floating atop TNA if he wasn't such, despite the fact that he was a former WWE employee.

 

[JulesWagner]

To me, people who cherish and protect the archetype of the Heel who's nothing more than a coward, a cheater or a downright loser, those people, are utterly excruciating and exasperating. I know there are those who will gladly p*ss on any IWF and label them something like a fake fan or someone who's unable to appreciate the essence of wrestling, but there are limits to being a "real" wrestling fan. A great coward, an excessive cheater or a perenial loser... each of those Heel personalities bore me to tears. That a Heel is very talented doesn't necessarily make me lose track of the quintessential clash between good and evil. I've always believed that every great hero needs a great adversary, otherwise you get the John Cenas of this world: invincible men without a trace of real opposition. That the Heel's job is to make the Face be loved is a lame excuse for a lame Face. If the wrestler is any good, nature will run its course and he will get his Face dues. If the Heel has to lower himself as low as socially acceptable to even hope to get his opponent a decent pop means the Face is so darn terrible that nothing short of vanquishing the ******ed monkey that eats his own cr*p will make him popular. Kurt Angle was and still is as much a fantastic Heel as a fantastic worker.

I will never have respect for a wrestler whose achievements is to whoop Heel weaklings, day after day, the same way I wouldn't respect an individual whose job is to club baby seals. The bigger the threat, the bigger the glory, yes? Kurt Angle is always that formidable threat. Fans know that he's a man who can end it in a snap, put a definite hurtin' on the hero. His Heel persona still resides in the fact that he has no in-ring code of honor, no respect, no mercy. No, his moveset doesn't change much but then again his is so developped that it makes him all the more threatening. Some people have to stop being so old-fashioned. 20 years ago, you could count on a guaranteed Face victory with the occasional Heel stealing one, without ever hoping of winning cleanly. To me, that's simple-mindedness at its best. To pretend that this is what the people want is bull since the fan can get as much if not more pleasure and satisfaction in cheering for the Face to overcome something terrible, without necessarily being afraid to show a talented Heel some well-earned respect.

The Joker was a formidable opponent and as much as most people loved him, they still rooted for the Batman to show his mettle and put him away. Any hero without a worthy adversary is just like Diet Pepsi, Robert Plant without Jimmy Page or a Ferrari with an empty gas tank... Where would Luke be if he had never clashed with Vader? I think even if he had eradicated the entire Sand People, nobody would have given a cr*p...

 

[africonda]

i totally agree with greenlight on this one, i think the whole idea of the heel was destroyed when austin became popular. no matter what he did the crowd loved him. now a days, the whole face and heel thing only works with kids, i think real wrestling fans will like and cheer a wrestler if he is playing a face or heel based on his wrestling ability, mic work, or the fact that he has been in the business so long. back in wcw when jericho was a heel, LOVED the guy, HHH as a heel probably gets better pops now then as a face, i love him way more as a heel, hate him as a face. with angle when he first came to the wwe, he was a heel, it was great, i did not enjoy him as a face, wrestling fans will cheer him because he puts on great matches, maybe the young kids in the crowd or some of the chicks will boo, but the real wrestling fans, who know they are in for a great match will cheer.

 

[14-Year Old Virgin]

i totally agree with greenlight on this one, i think the whole idea of the heel was destroyed when austin became popular. no matter what he did the crowd loved him. now a days, the whole face and heel thing only works with kids, i think real wrestling fans will like and cheer a wrestler if he is playing a face or heel based on his wrestling ability, mic work, or the fact that he has been in the business so long. back in wcw when jericho was a heel, LOVED the guy, HHH as a heel probably gets better pops now then as a face, i love him way more as a heel, hate him as a face. with angle when he first came to the wwe, he was a heel, it was great, i did not enjoy him as a face, wrestling fans will cheer him because he puts on great matches, maybe the young kids in the crowd or some of the chicks will boo, but the real wrestling fans, who know they are in for a great match will cheer.

WELL SAID. Austin did in fact ruin the whole Good Guy/ Bad Guy image as we know it. As for HHH, Sorry guys, Never been a fan of him. Good wrestler, good mic skills, but something about him irritates me. Maybe it's the whole constant shoving of him down our throats. Who knows.

But let's talk about Angle. I have to agree with Uncle Sam and others. Angle is the best PURE wrestler in the business today and could join the ranks as one of the best ever. The best match I have seen Angle in was with Brock Lesner at Wrestlemania. To me, that was probably the best match I have ever seen with Angle in it. Now, thats my opinion, not all may agree, but this is the match that screams across mountiantops for me. I'm sure others could name a few others matches that they felt was his best.

But bottomline is, Angle is far from an average worker. This guy is an absolutly amazing wrestler, his mic skills very easily could be one of the best in wrestling today, and his overall "Heel" status I feel has never been better! Because of Austin, it is "Normal" to cheer for the Bad Guy. Or at the very least, acceptable.

 

[dirtyshubb]

I appreciate the role that the usual heel and face characters have played through the years but for this day and age it just isnt as fresh and can end up being boring. I much prefer a heel who is a bad ass, one that can beat the faces cleanly, it just makes them that much more intimidating and whoever eventually beats them looks even better because of it.

Everyone should be pushed as equals because otherwise why watch a match when an opponent is
looks rubbish in comparison (always running/having to cheat ect), if everyone makes everyone look good then its more exciting and makes for a better match, of course you can still have underdogs but if handled well that wouldnt be a problem

Angle is a true great and can pull off both face and heel very well (although he does play a better heel), yes he may not change his character much but thats what is exciting. I think these days fans need some realism with their characters and for me when wrestlers have a tweener role they are always a lot more interesting.

The best example is when Angle first came to TNA, people moaned that 1 week he would be face and then a heel but for me it just made his character very believable, yes he is a good guy but depending on the situation he can still be a bastard just like most people are, im sure even with all of our best friends there are times they can be pricks!

The way TNA handles their faces and heels is far more interesting and always makes me want to come back. I think the main problem people seem to have is that a lot of viewers dont watch every week and cant follow the story at times, i know some have moaned that they dont do a replay vid good enough but they do seem to be improving on that after watching this weeks impact

I think if people make the effort to watch regularly (which is the only way you can get the most out of a good show) that maybe some of the problems they have thought are not nearly as bad as they originally thought!