Is it just the PRODUCTION VALUES?

[AttitudeChild]

This is a question that has always been in the back of my mind but I never realized how big of an issue it was until yesterday. Here's what happened.

I was watching Final Battle with my brother (who isn't a huge ROH fan) and even though he really enjoyed the show, he still said WWE was better. I should point out that he only watches the RAW highlights on YouTube and doesn't watch SmackDown at all. So I had to ask, "Why? What about WWE is SO much better than this?" He flat out says PRODUCTION VALUES. He said to him, that's the only thing that matters. He says that's why he doesn't watch NXT either. So I asked if WWE and ROH were to switch production values would he switch which show he'd watch? He said YES! I honestly wasn't expecting that answer.

So my question is exactly as the title says. To all of those people who don't watch ROH or won't even give it a chance, is it just the production values? Is the fact that they wrestle in smaller arenas with smaller crowds make or brake for you? Is them not having a Titantron and pyro that much of an issue for you to the point that the product is just not watchable? If so, please explain.

 

[@smarkmouth]

It's part of human nature to go toward the shinier of two objects, so your friends answer doesn't surprise me. Big budget effects provide the viewer with immediate impact, which is important if you want new viewers. You only get one first impression.

Your friend doesn't sound like he's a die hard wrestling fan like many of us are. While people like us are watching with nuanced eyes for a story driven match, those from the other camp may just want spectacle. I have a similar friend. I'll occasionally show him a newer match from WWE like Shield/Wyatt's or Ambrose/Rollins, but I know he'd be bored to tears watching Indys, unfortunately.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

It sounds like the OP's brother is the most casual of casual wrestling fans. Production values are window dressing and in the grand scheme of things, not all that important in my eyes. Oh don't get me wrong, I think a show should try its best to look as professional as it can with whatever it can manage in its budget. I mean, nobody's gonna go to a show being held in a venue that looks like such a complete, poorly lit dump that should be condemned obviously.

It's ultimately the wrestlers, the action and the storylines that draw. Sure, some cool lights, fireworks, camera work, etc. can all add to the experience, but it's certainly not the end all/be all of things. If you're having a hot fudge sundae, the essentials are ice cream, chocolate syrup and whipped cream. In pro wrestling, the wrestlers are the ice cream, the action is the chocolate syrup and the storylines comprise the whipped cream. Over the top, grand, expensive production values are like the cherry on top of the sundae: it's a nice little treat, but not exactly something that's vital.

It's ultimately the wrestlers, the action and the storylines that draw. Sure, some cool lights, fireworks, camera work, etc. can all add to the experience, but it's certainly not the end all/be all of things.

 

[L@RISANO]

It sounds like the OP's brother is the most casual of casual wrestling fans. Production values are window dressing and in the grand scheme of things, not all that important in my eyes. Oh don't get me wrong, I think a show should try its best to look as professional as it can with whatever it can manage in its budget. I mean, nobody's gonna go to a show being held in a venue that looks like such a complete, poorly lit dump that should be condemned obviously.

It's ultimately the wrestlers, the action and the storylines that draw. Sure, some cool lights, fireworks, camera work, etc. can all add to the experience, but it's certainly not the end all/be all of things. If you're having a hot fudge sundae, the essentials are ice cream, chocolate syrup and whipped cream. In pro wrestling, the wrestlers are the ice cream, the action is the chocolate syrup and the storylines comprise the whipped cream. Over the top, grand, expensive production values are like the cherry on top of the sundae: it's a nice little treat, but not exactly something that's vital.

It's ultimately the wrestlers, the action and the storylines that draw. Sure, some cool lights, fireworks, camera work, etc. can all add to the experience, but it's certainly not the end all/be all of things.

Speaking from purely personal experience here, I'd have to say that whilst I get your point, I still have to say that "production values" do matter to people like me(which makes me in some way a 'casual mark' ).

Last night, I watched some of NXT Takeover also, and whilst I enjoyed it, especially the in-ring stuff, I wasn't blown away like the majority on here.
The production values weren't bad, but still it couldn't quite compare to the glitz and glamour offered on the Main Show.

Also, I have watched a couple of TNA and ROH matches and even some NJPW matches...and trust me, the simplicity turns me off from getting fully into it. Indeed, I won't say anything bad about the in-ring stuff, but I guess it is the way it is with those promotions, and the lack of glitz and glamour takes away alot from their ability to attract more viewership... maybe Vince's Sports Entertainment fetish has some merit after all. (jk )

 

[HBKistheHOF]

Great thread, I was actually just having a similar conversation with a friend about this. Although we both watch ROH, PWG, NJPW, etc. from time to time, we still both prefer WWE.

I don't think it is JUST the production value that matters or determines whether the product is any good/if fans can enjoy it but I do think it is the #1 most important thing, especially in this day & age. Not only is it simply more appealing for the eye to watch but it really sets WWE apart when the next biggest companies like TNA & ROH really don't even come close in terms of production values.

Also in order to compensate for not being able to beat WWE level prod. vaules, it seems like most indie companies actually end up overcompensating with their in-ring work. Don't get me wrong, there are some absolutely amazing athletes & performers outside of the WWE but not everyone likes watching 2-3 hour spot-fest shows where every match lasts 30 min. or longer, once again especially in today's world & with today's attention spans. I think a lot of fans like the WWE style, which is more akin to your average movie with a beginning, middle & end that slowly (or not so slowly) crescendos to the one main climax at the end, even if half of the people in the "theater" saw it coming the whole time.

Not to mention there are several other factors that come in to play such as the talent itself, which is HUGE for me. Once I really gravitate towards a certain performer then I'll pretty much follow them throughout their entire career, no matter what promotion they work for. But then again I could also make another argument in favor of prod. values because that's hasn't always been the case. For example I was a fan of Kurt Angle, not a huge fan but a fan non the less, & while I initially followed his career when he moved to TNA, I quickly lost any & all interest in him as a performer.

So while I don't think Production is everything, I think it is definitely a major deciding factor for most fans.

 

[kanefan00]

I don't care about the production values. as long as it's good, ill watch it. but ijust can't into ROH..

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Perception is everything. If you are talented, but it doesn't feel like you're in the big leagues, it doesn't matter.

That's why minor league baseball games, even though they very often have the future stars there tearing it up and it's honestly the best value for your money as far as baseball goes, don't draw as well as major league games.

I also think that some fans like the raw and grungy look. It's a niche. If ROH tried looking like WWE, you'd have the inverse. How many snotty hipster ass IWC fans turn on things once they look too mainstream? It's all marketing and every fan is subject to it.

 

[lil steroid meat]

I don't care about the production values. as long as it's good, ill watch it. but ijust can't into ROH..

The irony. You can't get into it because subconsciously you feel like you're watching a bland product because it's in a bland environment.

Perception is everything.

Held TNA back too (obviously haven't seen their new set). That blue color scheme looked like a diet Smackdown. Even if they put on a good show, automatically, the blue and white makes you think of Smackdown, which is not good considering the disparagement in star power, history, and prestige between Impact and Smackdown. They had it right pre-Bischoff/Hogan when they had the yellow/black traffic tape plus the hexagonal tunnels to match the ring and their color scheme was Red/Yellow. I think even at one point they had the faces and heels come out of opposing tunnels.

Even with UFC, it would be so much cooler if they had the PRIDE/WWE style big entrances with the trons. It's even easier for them to do since they don't have to pack it up to go to a different arena every night.

Production values set the vibe for the entire show. If your show is taped in a bingo hall or another equally subpar environment with no focus on entrance sets or proper lighting, then I'm gonna feel like I'm watching a subpar product.

I also think that some fans like the raw and grungy look. It's a niche. If ROH tried looking like WWE, you'd have the inverse. How many snotty hipster ass IWC fans turn on things once they look too mainstream? It's all marketing and every fan is subject to it.

Even if you are TRYING to go for a grungy feel, take notes from ECW, have some props or set designs that indicate that you are consciously going for that vibe like some fence pieces or some shit. Find a way to creatively display the grungy feel. It's so lazy to just have no set and try to sell it as an "organic and grungy" look.

When you just put the ring out there and throw some black sheets over a wall for the entrance set (which was ROH's setup last time I watched which was a random episode a year ago when I was at a hotel that actually had the program on a local affiliate, which, by the way, is another problem for ROH), then subconsciously I'm going to feel like I'm watching a subpar product.

Part of the reason WWE is so successful, is because it feels like a big show. Which is why they can sell you the same pointless inconsequential matches, they make their show seem bigger than it is. They know the vibe their going for and they execute it perfectly.

ROH (and TNA for that matter) needs to figure out the vibe they want and find a way within their means to execute it. If you don't have Vince McMahon big show money, then that doesn't have to be your vibe, but don't think having a ring and a spotlight is enough.

 

[rmp0012002]

Comparing a million dollar company like ROH to a billion dollar company like WWE is a bad example. If you only grew up on watching the WWE then everything else seems second rate but a lot of people like that old feel. Production doesn't make the product. You can crap in a box and put a nice bow on it but in the end it's still crap.

 

[Alex]

Comparing a million dollar company like ROH to a billion dollar company like WWE is a bad example. If you only grew up on watching the WWE then everything else seems second rate but a lot of people like that old feel. Production doesn't make the product. You can crap in a box and put a nice bow on it but in the end it's still crap.

I was like that a lot. I started watching WWE about 2000, stopped until about the start of 2006 and have carried on. When I first started watching TNA matches it looked like shit in comparison. I was used to WWE's black blocks that separated the audience from the wrestlers, I wasn't used to the standard guard railings that I would see at my local fair. Plus the lighting and quality of the camera were so much better in WWE.

But after a while that stuff fell to the wayside and I only focused on the storylines and action which I still do now.

But yeah casual fans do care about look and aesthetic more than die hard fans. It's like anything though. If you're a casual moviegoer you may prefer Terminator Salvation to the original Terminator because the production values are better on Salvation than the original even though the original has the superior story.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It's nothing to do with the production value, its that ROH is shit.

The production value on Final battle was absolutely fine. Nothing at all wrong with it. It's not on par with WWE, but it never can be, nor does it need to be. Light the place properly, and have good audio and you are set.

The production value is a nicety, but nothing that makes or breaks a show. UFC's production value is shit besides having solid broadcast equipment, and it doesn't make a bit of difference.

Lighting, good cameras and good audio is all you really need if you have a solid product.