Is Hard Justice doomed to fail?

[a0161613]

I ask this question having heard so much about ECW talent coming back. I can't help but think this is bad idea.

A much more solid (and beneficial idea) would be to pick the best of ECW's talent and pit them against established TNA names.

While names like Tajiri, Kash, Corino and Lynn are available this means that we would have genuine never-before-seen matches and combine that with matches that are crucial to TNA's current stories, that would make a card worth buying.

What I can't understand is why does anyone in TNA think of a card based solely on ECW names would work in any fashion? Wouldn't extremematches with younger and questionably more popular names be more marketable? Does TNA expect ECW to bring them in more money?

I want TNA to do so well but it has to be TNA, not a one night extreme rip off. If I could I would pay to see a card with Angle vs Corino, RVD vs Lynn, MCMG vs Tajiri & Super Crazy, Abyss vs Sabu and AJ vs Kid Kash. But I don't want to see the likes of Sandman vs Rhyno; I don't see the value of it.

At a TNA PPV, held at their studio, with their branding, on their PPV time, shouldn't the TNA talent be the focus by going over and holding their own against the ECW "invasion"?

Please do not spam, keep it on topic and don't give IDR a lot of work to do by having to tidy up bad posts.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

I really think that the whole idea of the PPV is to give the ECW guys some closure. Dreamer's promo was a shoot, and there was tons of truth in it. I think that this is just a favor that TNA does to the ECW guys, to have one real One last night and clean their names ( if humanly possible ). Not about money, views or anything. Just the ECW guys having one last night. I can respect that.

... but it is going to be a dreck.

 

[CobraVenom]

I really think that the whole idea of the PPV is to give the ECW guys some closure. Dreamer's promo was a shoot, and there was tons of truth in it. I think that this is just a favor that TNA does to the ECW guys, to have one real One last night and clean their names ( if humanly possible ). Not about money, views or anything. Just the ECW guys having one last night. I can respect that.

... but it is going to be a dreck.

They already had closure. They already had a one night stand. This is not a favor TNA is doing for ECW. This is TNA trying to sway viewers like me who was there during the real ECW. I see it as nothing but a last ditch effort to bring in new loyal viewers. It will not work, as I will not be paying good money to see Raven or Stevie Richards in matches when they shouldn't even be in the ring. If I want to see them or any other ECW guys, save Van Dam, I will go to Youtube. I will give TNA credit for trying though.

 

[wrestlemaniac]

just got a reply from dreamer asking him if anyone else was going to be there, his response was if I was a fan of the old then he would try to keep it authentic as possible. I think it'll be a hit. On as side note, I dont think supercrazy or tajiri will be there....i think tajiiri has an appearance at njpw that weekend and supercrazy is appearing at another japan organization oh and tanaka is on tour tilthat weekend and probably wouldn't be able to get a work visa in time

 

[neildittmar]

Doomed to fail? I wouldn't necessarily go that far, though I know there's a lot of folks here that would.

I was relieved last night when Dreamer said that what we were seeing was NOT an invasion. That card, especially with ECW, has already been played twice by WWF/E. I agree that there is no sense in doing it again. No, this is a reunion show of sorts with the added catch that some of the guys involved are currently active on the TNA roster.

I think most of what was said on iMPACT last night was true. There is a certain segment of the audience looking for hardcore wrestling. Hardcore Justice serves two purposes really. First and foremost, it gives that subset of fans one more chance to see their favorites go at it (presumably) one last time. Second, it allows Carter and Company the opportunity to see how well received a hardcore centric product would be amongst the more general fanbase. Those who are hardest on TNA often say that the company needs to be what WWE isn't... provide a product that they won't or can't. Earlier this year (and arguably a long time before that), WWE completely gave up on hardcore wrestling. Now TNA is trying their hand at it. Those naysayers should be happy, though I doubt they will be.

ECW still means a lot of things to a lot of people, both performers and fans alike. I commented in another thread that nothing TNA has put out has made me "Cross the line" and buy one of their PPVs yet. Hardcore Justice may actually be what finally does it. I don't think TNA is going to be "hurt" by running an ECW reunion show, nor would I expect there to be NO TNA stars on the PPV. If anything, it'll be a good "testing of the waters" to see if TNA can embrace a more hardcore format, still keep the fans they have interested and ultimately (hopefully) bring in some of that fanbase that got lost in the late 90's, early 2000's.

I think this is a smart move, provided the company really does let Dreamer and others involved run with it fully.

 

[Ace Sleeper]

They already had closure. They already had a one night stand. This is not a favor TNA is doing for ECW. This is TNA trying to sway viewers like me who was there during the real ECW. I see it as nothing but a last ditch effort to bring in new loyal viewers. It will not work, as I will not be paying good money to see Raven or Stevie Richards in matches when they shouldn't even be in the ring. If I want to see them or any other ECW guys, save Van Dam, I will go to Youtube. I will give TNA credit for trying though.

Yes, that is true, but the point was that WWE brought back the ECW name and turned it into something that isn't ECW, ruining what was a great last show for the ECW guys. That is what Dreamer was talking about. Hard Justice is going to be their official One Night Stand. The only way this can be ruined is if TNA continues to use ECW as a storyline, instead of breaking away from it. If you really think they had closure from WWECW, then you're crazy. I don't think that the original ECW superstars were very satisfied with Ezekiel Jackson being the last "ECW" champion. I don't think they were satisfied with the fact that is was called "Extreme Championship Wrestling" when they use a weapon once every other month.

This will be the one where they can go balls out, have one last fling, and leave it alone. The shoot made absolute sense, and if you are not willing to pay the money for the card, then don't. Simple as that. No one asked you to buy the card.

 

[Gifted Music]

It's not going to work..It worked Five years ago...They're only doing it because of the result of some focus group survey thing that they did.. Big deal..And the ENTIRE Card will be left up to Tommy Dreamer... So we got SOMEONEELSE in charge...As if it wasn't enough with Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Dixie Carter, and Jeff Jarrett all making decisions... Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians...I'm sure we'll see Kurt Angle face a member of the Top Ten....We'll probably see the conclusion of Beer Money vs MCMG..Mr.Anderson and Matt Morgan will probably compete..I wouldn't be surprised to see Kevin Nash vs Jeff Jarrett but i'm not sure... But the main focus of the card is ECW talent.

The Main event is already penciled in as Rob Van Dam vs Jerry Lynn..That in itself dooms the PPV..Even during the HEIGHT of ECW's popularity, Jerry Lynn was a failure at the Main event...And ECW didn't even focus on RVD until everybody left for WCW and WWE....I'm sure The Sandman and Sabu will be involved in addition to Raven, Rhino, Stevie, Foley, and Tommy... But it won't 'be ANYTHING like One Night Stand 2005.. No Jericho, no Benoit, no Guerrero, probably no Credible...Lance Storm has lashed out repeatedly about how he'll never watch TNA again so I doubt he'll show up...Taz can't compete anymore..And the two biggest pieces of the ECW puzzle in Paul Heyman and Joey Styles will NOT be there..I'm sorry but Mike Tenay calling an ECW style Pay Per View makes me wanna vomit.


Paul Heyman, in a meeting with Dixie Carter, told her that having an ECW PPV and ECW Invasion was a BAD idea... So if PAUL HEYMAN thinks it's a bad idea, why in the HELL would you do it anyway and then expect the man to sign with your company?! If you can't listen to ONE simple piece of advice, why should he think you'll listen to HIS direction for your company?It all reeks of failure to me and I think TNA is just biding their time until Bound for Glory and Rob Van Dam vs Kurt Angle..The PPV was doomed the moment Tommy Dreamer first showed up in TNA...They could've kept it as a stable..Maybe ECW vs TNA at Hard Justice with Dreamer/Rhino/Raven/Richards/Foley vs TNA Originals(Styles/Kazarian/Joe/Beer Money or MCMG) and then have RVD vs Abyss main event.An entire ECW themed PPV? I know what i'm spending MY money on this month...And it's not HardCORE Justice.

 

[mr_dna]

Yes it is all TNA seem to do is rip off ECW WCW & WWE but the silly thing is VKM own all of them and VKM could sue them maybe not get much out of it but im sure he could affect the PPV if he wanted did anyone else the signs with the ECW logo on them ermmm who owns that ??? Oooo VKM is TNA a WWE Product ? Nooo .Did TNA Ask to use the ECW logo on live TV ? Noo

It wouldnt be hard for them to check the signs before the Show hell if there was a sign saying TNA Sucks & WWE Rulez im sure it would be taken away .

Dixe has no buissness sense and is just followin a idea by washed up bingo hall wrestlers that wants to get more money and some PPV time.

Did i hear him right He Quit is that what they call a contract ending now Quiting il have to remeber that.

Panda enrgy just need to pull out of TNA and daddy needs to say look dixe u are a useless %^$*& go back to sitting on ur arse in a office doing nothing

TNA has just been on a downward spiral since Hogan and it getting near rock bottom

Next PPV concept 50+ instead of bound for glory it going to be Bound For zimmer frames

 

[MB1025]

Why are people complaining. Its not your money. I mean people are already saying the show sucks and no one has stepped in the ring yet. That should tell you enough about people these days. What everyone is forgetting is that over half of the ECW roster that will be there are closer to TNA originals then half the regular roster now. When you are a wrestling company the idea is to make money. TNA is smart because the only way you get into this PPV is to buy the VIP package for 99 dollars. The last twitter post I saw there where fans from Australia, England, and about 6-7 different states in the U.S. that already bought packages to the show. So TNA is trying to be creative and make money, and they are, and this is a bad thing all of a sudden. So all the people that get turned away for this PPV will then spend half of 99 dollars to just buy the PPV. Since it is TNA only the negatives will be written about and talked about. If this was WWE people would be so excited and in line to buy tickets because Vince would be giving those guys another chance. Dixie does this however and she is just trying to bury her roster and re hash something for the 5th time.

 

[CobraVenom]

If this was WWE people would be so excited and in line to buy tickets because Vince would be giving those guys another chance.

Wrong. If Vince was doing this, I would be saying the exact same thing. ECW is dead. Talk to the fans of ECW and the vast majority will say the same thing I did. It is dead and it shouldn't be brought back. A lot of people here talk about a thing called legacy. How many times can we have an ECW nostalgia show? Once is enough. It was time to let ECW die a long time ago.

YIf you really think they had closure from WWECW, then you're crazy. I don't think that the original ECW superstars were very satisfied with Ezekiel Jackson being the last "ECW" champion. I don't think they were satisfied with the fact that is was called "Extreme Championship Wrestling" when they use a weapon once every other month.

The old ECW guys shouldn't care about any of this. They know, just like you and me, that it was ECW in letters only. Only a fool would confuse Vince's version with what really was ECW.

 

[natiboy]

I think this may actually help TNA, but the funny thing is if people didn't remember what organization they were watching and the person decides to look up ECW superstars- the search engine will probably show wwe.com since WWE does own the name. Thus Tna losing the chance on getting that one new person to watch their programming.

I don't watch TNA, but I would love to if they would just stop rehashing old WWE stuff!

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

Yes, Hard Justice is certainly doomed to fail if they go ahead with this planned ECW nonesense! If Vince McMahon wanted to, in one fell swoop, he could completely destroy TNA and it would be TNA's fault. The fact that he owns the name and rights to ECW should alert TNA to abandon ship immediately. Yet, Dixie Carter will tug ahead, full speed ahead by the way, either not knowing or not caring about the infridgements that await her after the show. I can see the lawyers now calling TNA offices telling TNA officials, wrestlers, Dixie, Eric & Hogan that they are being sued and that they need to disband their own storyline because TNA is too damn stupid to NOT do this. Hard Justice will fail pretty much if they keep with the ECW storyline. Why on Heaven's name would they even go there is beyond me. Oh well...

 

[Kenny Powers]

The sad thing is that this PPV could probably get more buys then a regular TNA PPV. Then again, if it is only ECW stars then I don't think people will buy into it. With ECW vs. TNA it gives us new matches we haven't seen before. We have seen RVD vs. Sabu or RVD vs. Jerry Lynn. Most of the people contacted to show up have either declined or are working somewhere else.

A hardcore homecoming type PPV with only RVD, Dreamer, Raven, Richards, Rhino, Lynn, and Foley isn't enough. In 2005 ECW was fresh in everyone's minds and it was set up great with the invasion angle against WWE. Now it seems like a lousy tribute show honoring an organization that has been dead and buried for years now.

Unless TNA has something big up their sleeves, I don't see how this PPV will be different then any other PPV. At least with other PPVs you could see Motor City vs. Beer Money or Kurt Angle vs. AJ Styles. The only thing we will probably see here is Raven vs. Dreamer part 85.

 

[The Scarred One]

ECW is dead. Why can't we just let it rest in peace already?

ECW was awesome back in the day. It was a magical time when this bingo hall promotion took the wrestling world by storm and revolutionized the industry. If it wasn't for ECW, we'd have never seen the likes of Steve Austin, the Rock, Mick Foley or D-Generation X. ECW took what was an almost cartoonish wrestling scene and made it real with what they produced.

But those days are gone forever. You can't recreate or recapture that time again, no matter how much one wants to. Personally, I thought ECW One Night Stand 2005 should've been closure for the promotion. It was a great way for those guys to go out.

But just like McMahon and the WWE did, Dixie Carter and TNA are trying to milk the ECW cashcow with both hands. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[ABMorales787]

I'm glad people are declining offers to compete. It means they will have to book it TNA vs ECW or at least keep the show TNA oriented with the ECW guys getting a few matches. There is already build to somes TNA-centric matches that involove a "hardcore" aspect to them. MCMG/Beer Money is one, RVD/Abyss is another one. AT the least it seems like TNA won't shun it's own roster from the show completely.

 

[CorkscrewBackElbowDrop]

This is just more of TNA trying to be, hey, you should watch me,
why?
because i have blood and extreme action
COOL so you guys have like an ECW format with young guys doing hardcore wrestling
wellllll no, we have OLD guys doing hardcore wrestling
oh, LUCHA LIBRE HERE I COME BITCHES

but seriously, i respect all the ECW guys, and they deserve to still wrestle, but TNA is just leeching off their previous sucess like every star they didn't develop, its getting pathetic that they can't make their own content

they're just going from one demographic to the next, trying to figure out what gets more money, pretty soon they're going to be catering to 3 year olds
"You knocked off my ice cream cone abyss, i'm going to tell the teacher"
TNA, be a wrestling company, don't try to cater to anyone, just consistently put out good matches, hey, you can have some blood even, just not in every freaking match, and the viewers will come
and get the F out of Orlando

 

[wushady]

Yes I think it's going to fail miserably the main reason is ECW has been dead for a long time. I'm sure most of it's original fan base has moved on, and Dreamer and the rest of the ECW originals should too as well. They should have got their closure at One Night Stand '05. That was a perfect send off for the original ECW in my opinion.

WWE's version of ECW was nothing like the real ECW I never liked that it was even called ECW. However I don't know if it really destroyed the ECW legacy any one could watch for a second and know it wasn't really ECW. I don't see how TNA can do ECW any justice. They can't use the name, most of the ECW originals wont be there the ones that can are in horrible shape, and no Heyman. There is no ECW without Heyman.

I lost a lot of respect for Dreamer last night he came across as a giant crybaby. People will argue he's just emotional about ECW if he cared so much about it's legacy being destroyed or his friends getting fired. Why did he stay until a few weeks before it ended? He was very emotional in his farewell speech to the WWE Universe too.

I don't get why they need closure so bad anyway. WCW, AWA, WCCW all closed down and we never hear anyone cry about a reunion for those promotions. They had One Night Stand they should move on and help TNA become successful.

 

[nightmare]

how many people are going to keep whining about this? for years fans bitched about vince killing the memory of ecw & turning it pg. complained about "missing the old days" & "what happened to hardcore?" wrestling slowy turned into some strange shell of itself because vince killed off the competition & could promote his shiny-happy pg product for all the 'cenation' to buy evrything he fed them.

so now we have tna trying their ass off to make a show the fans want to see (yes i admit, nt erything is perfect but nothing ever has been) & the same fans that have been whining about 'the old days' are fucking bitching about it. tna is trying to be the opposite of wwe & everytime they do, people whine about 'vince did that already'. well fuck, if vince did it right then we wouldnt be talking about how much they fucked it up now would we? and besides all companies borrow ideas from the past (good or bad) but so what, it happens. if u dont like it -dont watch.

one more night to get it right. mayb nt such a bad idea. it will never be the same feeling as it was, but its worth a shot. the large amount of fans that chant ec-dub across the planet want to see it. the same people on these forums who hated what vince did to ecw want to see it. and everyone who makes caw's in s-v-r of the old ecw roster want to see it. and hell, im willing to bet more than half of you are going to watch, enjoy re-hashing the old hardcore spirit, and still bitch about it the next day.

none of you think any promoter ever gets it right b\c its 'nt what i would do', but they obviously are doing sumthing right b\c they own a company. all you own is a juice box, half broken gi joes & computer to waste you opinions on.

 

[Saritafan]

Like always, TNA fails. They keep thinking that if they put these old farts on our TV screens, that the ratings will come in, IT WON'T. This storyline was doomed to fail from the beginning, i don't give a flying fuck about ECW or their superstars, I don't wanna see Tommy Dreamer, stevie richards, raven, and Rhyno on my TV screen

This is one of the reasons why TNA sucks. They keep living in the past, recycling storylines from WWE,WCW, and ECW. Dixie keeps hiring these old has-beens past their prime, she gives them all this money and at the end of the day, it doesn't help her company one bit. I hope this PPV fails and no one orders it, then ******** carter and her sidekick monkeys will see

 

[Zeven_Zion]

This is one of the reasons why TNA sucks. They keep living in the past, recycling storylines from WWE,WCW, and ECW.

Err...name the storylines they recycled. Aside from the One Night Stand. Please. The way you put it, they do it frequently, so illuminate me.

Dixie keeps hiring these old has-beens past their prime, she gives them all this money and at the end of the day, it doesn't help her company one bit.

...they're being paid from $500 to $1000 bucks at the PPV. "All this money"? Dude, get your head out of your ass for God sakes.

Why do people who have no clue about TNA keep saying the usual stuff without thinking?

- It's like WCW

- It's like WWE

- It's like ECW

- They hire old guys

- They hire ex-WWE guys.

- They recycle old storylines.

- They hire old guys.

- They hire old guys.

- They hire old guys.

I mean, seriously. I don't think that the PPV will be balls to the wall awesome, but I'm going to buy it, because I'll at least watch some wrestling 'cause these guys can still go. They way I see it, most of them are TNA guys. Raven, Richards, Foley, RVD, Rhyno. I was fine watching them before, and I'm fine watching them now. At least this time I have a reason to watch them.

Now go hail Cena.

 

[Puffey]

Maybe some of you people prefer to watch hornswagle prance around the ring. Maybe you want to see the Nexus, which is a WCW bite off the New Blood and the Millionaires Club, the Main event Mafia vs. TNA. Yes WWE does recylce storylines also if you didn't know. Maybe you want to see a invisible unknown gm text, e-mail, a ring a bell to announce matches, How about another insanse geust host, Florence Henderson from the Brady Bunch anyone. The fact is is that many of these TNA wrestlers, which have been doing nothing for months and proabaly under contract, have an oppurtunistic way to be used. How bad can Hardcore action be, atleast it's entertaining. Give it a break people. You bitch and moan against TNA, while Raw for months has sucked, completely sucked up until two weeks ago.

 

[dwith]

Yes, Hard Justice is certainly doomed to fail if they go ahead with this planned ECW nonesense! If Vince McMahon wanted to, in one fell swoop, he could completely destroy TNA and it would be TNA's fault. The fact that he owns the name and rights to ECW should alert TNA to abandon ship immediately. Yet, Dixie Carter will tug ahead, full speed ahead by the way, either not knowing or not caring about the infridgements that await her after the show. I can see the lawyers now calling TNA offices telling TNA officials, wrestlers, Dixie, Eric & Hogan that they are being sued and that they need to disband their own storyline because TNA is too damn stupid to NOT do this. Hard Justice will fail pretty much if they keep with the ECW storyline. Why on Heaven's name would they even go there is beyond me. Oh well...

If you think about it... TNA could be doing this to
A- see if there is a market for the hard core(just cause WWE doesn't have a need doesn't mean there's not.

B- If they grab a couple of the old ECW roster guy's like Tommy Dreamer, and Jerry Lynn, they can help push their younger talent's

C-If they get sued by WWE for something to do with ECW angle, don't think that is not a great deal of PUBLICITY for TNA Wrestling. It still gives them main stream publicity and fan's that have been lost will know TNA exist's.

D-Dixie Carter is truley trying to give the ECW a true last hurrah, and paying patronage to the extremist since the WWE buried the legacy of hardcore.

We all know that TNA has gone the opposite way of WWE in the PG. So why not test the waters of extreme with the original HARDCORE EXTREMES.

 

[Suneeboy]

Yes its doomed to fail. Mark Madden's latest column says it best. We should all laugh as we watch Dixie Carter sit in the stands as the TNA crowd chants for a brand name that Vince McMahon owns the rights too.

This has got to be the worst wrestling idea I have ever heard of in my life. I have to LOL at this every time I just think about it.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Hardcore Justice will probably little more than another example of TNA attempting to avoid its problems by placing its attention, and the attention of its fans onto something else.

The promo with Tommy Dreamer and Dixie Carter last night on Impact was designed to make the audience believe it's out of the goodness of TNA's heart they're letting the old ECW crew get back together for one more night of fun, action, passion, and excitement. In actuality, TNA sees a business opportunity to make money off of ECW, maybe to also boost supposedly low ppv buyrates and then bottle the old ECW spirig and take it out on the road. On the surface, it sounds like a pretty good idea but when you actually try to look at things overall, it's just another example of how short sighted TNA is.

Let's say that the buyrate for this ppv is significantly above the TNA norm, whatever that is. I don't know if they do have truly abyssmal buyrates, but let's just assume for a second that they do. Let's say Hardcore Justice draws a solid..I dunno...15 to 20% above their norm. What exactly does that say about the TNA brand in and of itself that the company is looking to a brand that went out of business in 2001 and WWE tried to kill off in 2010 to boost buys? It would mean that the current TNA brand has less value out there in the wrestling market than ECW does, despite that it's essentially been dead for a long time.

Instead of working to build up its own brand and its own reputation, TNA continues to be a company that allows itself to be defined by nostalgia. Meanwhile, the TNA roster isn't anymore over than it ever has been and it gets shoved aside last night in order for ECW to have one last hurrah.

For instance, last night was the first ever match between Jeff Hardy and Samoa Joe. Why didn't TNA try to hype the shit out of that match? Why didn't they build that match to feel like something special and relevant? Hell, why didn't they at least even try to make it seem significant? The first three minutes of the match, they insert a telephone call with Eric Bischoff that once again hyped the ECW storyline rather than focus on anything going on in the match before them. What about Jey Lethal? Where was he last night? TNA spends all the time in doing something with him over the course of the summer, puts him in a feud and and over in a match with Ric Flair, then has him lose to Jeff Hardy last week and he's nowhere to be seen last night? Even though the feud with Flair hasn't exactly blown my skirt up, TNA put so much time and effort into it and Jay Lethal and he's not featured on the show for ECW?

The timing was spot-on for Dixie and Dreamer to talk about the similarities between TNA and ECW on Impact last night. But, it's not for the reasons they talked about on the show. It's because neither brand has strong value in the marketplace. Not with "hardcore" wrestling fans, but with mainstream wrestling fans.

So what happens when TNA is finished with this latest romp through yesteryear and days gone by? They'll be stuck with the same roster of wrestlers who aren't over, with the same writers who keep shooting themselves in the foot, and the same TNA brand that does not have value or awareness in the marketplace.

 

[Cena_Yogi]

There basically just trying to get more ratings and people watching by doing this. That's the thing, whats the point of signing guys for one night and then letting them go? Most of these guys are pretty old too so its going to be interesting to see how their in-ring work still is.