Int. Region, Third Round: 30 Minute Iron Man Match: (3) Andre the Giant vs. (6) Vader

Who Wins This Matchup?

  • Andre the Giant

  • Vader


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klunderbunker

Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
This is a third round match in the International Region. It is a 30 Minute Iron Man match held in the 02 Arena in London, England.

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Rules: This match lasts thirty minutes and the person with the most decisions in the time limit wins. A decision is earned by a pinfall, submission, countout or a disqualification.

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#3. Andre the Giant

Vs.

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#6. Vader



Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Assume the wrestlers are at full strength after their first two matches.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
 
Uh oh, two fat guys in an iron man match. Big trouble, right? Not really. I don't think these guys would have a problem lasting 30 minutes. I probably support Vader more than I should in this tournament but I have to go with Andre here. Late 80s Andre would have a hard time going 30 minutes. 70s Andre would be fine. I see Andre being able to get at least one decision on Vader in 30 minutes which means Vader has a big problem. He'd have to beat Andre twice. I don't see it.
 
Andre takes this one. Few have beaten Andre once. Who's going to do it twice? Not Vader. Vader has lots of trouble with men his own size and would have a huge amount of trouble with the greatest Super Heavyweight of all time.

Vote Andre. It's TIME! IT'S TIME! It's... ANDRE TIME!
 
Terrible match to be booked, but it's certainly workable. There'd be allot of rest holds and breaks standing around, coupled with brief spurs of action. I really haven't supported either of these guys and have been tough on both this year. But I'm taking my hat off to Andre this round.

He's the favorite: bigger draw, bigger legacy, bigger impact, better big man. Vader will throw his weight around, and Andre will throw his right back. And in the end the giant will prevail. Probably with a score of 1-0.

Vote Andre.
 
From a legacy standpoint Andre wins this every time, but with dream matches like this I like to run scenarios of how the match would play out.

You've got a 70's version of Andre the Giant that can move fairly well for a guy of his stature, versus probably an early 90s Vader that was booked as a durable bruiser that loved to throw stiff punches and inflict pain.

A lot of people are going to vote Andre because hardly anyone beat him, he was a bigger name/draw, blah blah blah... That debate is tiresome day after day. Nobody wants to really look at the meat of the issues which is Andre's never had to deal with somebody like 90s Vader.

Even despite 70s Andre being in better shape it's hard to say for sure if he could go for 30 hard minutes with a guy throwing blistering punches to his ears and chin. Sure, Andre would have his moments of dominance and he might pick up a pinfall. But Vader would excel at the end by having a bigger gas tank, and it's completely believable he could win the match by picking up count outs; something Andre was certainly known for doing when it was time to do a job.

Nobody is going to hit the Giant and stay on his ass like early 90s Vader, and that's why Vader will not only survive the Giant but conquer him. Vote for Vader!
 
I think this is an easy win for Andre in his prime. As has been mentioned, Vader struggled against men his own size, lost to those bigger then him, and was beaten at least a quarter of the time by men smaller then him. The last part doesn't really matter, I'm just throwing that out there. :shrug:

I don't know if Andre worked matches that were 30 minutes long, but I don't know either with Vader. Andre's style was of such that he'ld be less likely to get winded then Vader, so even if Vader would gain a pinfall in the earlier minutes of the match, it wouldn't be surprising to see Andre pick up 2 or 3 in the last ten.

Everything here favors Andre. Based on reputation, people would pay just to see Andre destroy Vader. He's the bigger name, the bigger draw, and has left behind a greater legacy. That includes being respected by his peers, which Vader certainly wasn't.

Andre rarely lost in his prime, and when he did, it wasn't to the same man more then once. And the men who beat Andre had legacies far greater than that of Vader's.

I'm going with Andre here.
 
This is an interesting one because of the Iron Man rules. I'm figuring this has to be late 1960s/early 1970s Andre versus early 1990s Vader. That's a tough matchup, any way you look at it.

For Andre, there were very, very few guys who could legitimately hang in the ring with him, but they existed. Supposedly Don Leo Jonathan was one guy who was able to slam Andre; Jonathan stood a solid 6'9" himself. The key to Andre was that he was a huge draw wherever he went, and he was booked accordingly to showcase his strength against guys who were usually a lot smaller than him. I went online and took a look at an older match between Andre and Strong Kobayashi from the early 70s, and it was an incredibly different match. Kobayashi was no pushover by any means, and Andre wrestled that pretty much straight...no showing off the strength, his opponent wasn't completely overmatched, etc. You can find it on YouTube - a 40+ minute match, btw.

Vader in his prime was a veritable monster and well known hard hitter with the ability to nail dropkicks and moonsaults in addition to his brutal suplexes. He also came from a time where there was no shortage of other brutes to fight.

Andre was unique to his time -- and booked accordingly. Vader may've been the baddest of the bad in his time, and had good opponents to prove it against. Unfortunately for Andre, all I can find are stories for the most part of his ability. I've no doubt he could do a dropkick when he was younger, but damned if you can find footage of such a thing. Most of the early footage is kind of a typical exhibition match for Andre; He'd dominate opponents, he'd wrestle two or three normal sized guys and stack them...pretty much the same stuff he'd do later in the 80s, only in the 70s he was a lot more spry.

My thought is that Andre would never be able to push around Vader the way he did others. Yes, Andre was strong as hell, but I think Vader's speed as a big guy and his own strength would make him a good match. I'm dismissing the legend that Andre at that time was unbeatable. If that's the case, then none of these guys in the tournament could beat him. I could see this going with a countout or a DQ for both guys on a couple of falls, but I think Vader would win this in the end having pinned Andre. I just don't necessarily think the myth of Andre at that time would stand up against the reality of Vader.
 
I think this is an easy win for Andre in his prime. As has been mentioned, Vader struggled against men his own size, lost to those bigger then him, and was beaten at least a quarter of the time by men smaller then him. The last part doesn't really matter, I'm just throwing that out there. :shrug:

Vader destroyed - and practically ended the career of - Yokozuna. Annihilated him. It wasn't a close feud at all.

I don't know if Andre worked matches that were 30 minutes long, but I don't know either with Vader. Andre's style was of such that he'ld be less likely to get winded then Vader, so even if Vader would gain a pinfall in the earlier minutes of the match, it wouldn't be surprising to see Andre pick up 2 or 3 in the last ten.

Vader's second IWGP Title was won in a tournament in which he wrestled for well over 30 minutes, 4 different matches. His four wins actually saw him wrestling longer than Randy Savage wrestled at Wrestlemania 4, and despite that, people still think Vader doesn't have endurance because they are biased against 400-lb men.

Everything here favors Andre.

Not really.

Based on reputation, people would pay just to see Andre destroy Vader.

They'd go home disappointed, just like the fans at the Sumo Hall who watched Vader debut by defeating Antonio Inoki. They rioted. These fans can riot to after Vader breaks Andre's knee. That is provided Andre is sober for the match.

Andre rarely lost in his prime, and when he did, it wasn't to the same man more then once.

He wrestled a lot of jobbers. Vader is 3-1 vs Sting in major matches.

And the men who beat Andre had legacies far greater than that of Vader's.

This bears no weight at all, mate. They've both lost to Hogan. Andre was crushed by the Ultimate Warrior, and Vader owned Sting. Take from that what you will.

I'm going with Andre here.

The 2nd greatest Super Heavyweight of all time beating the Greatest Super Heavyweight of all time? It could happen.

I will, of course, be voting Vader.
 
Vader destroyed - and practically ended the career of - Yokozuna. Annihilated him. It wasn't a close feud at all.
Yokozuna lost the rematch to Vader, having won the first match. And this was the Yokozuna that was past his prime, the one not too far for being sent home for good because of his weight issues. It's hardly an accomplishment.


Vader's second IWGP Title was won in a tournament in which he wrestled for well over 30 minutes, 4 different matches. His four wins actually saw him wrestling longer than Randy Savage wrestled at Wrestlemania 4, and despite that, people still think Vader doesn't have endurance because they are biased against 400-lb men.
It was actually an 8 man tournament, so it would be 3 matches. And I'm going to preface this by saying that I'm not doubting Vader's ability to go 30 minutes, but he barely did here in three matches. 3 matches, breaks in between. That's hardly the same animal as a 30 minute IronMan match, in which there are no breaks.

Andre wrestled two sixty minute time limit draws before his WWF days, against Harley Race and Nick Bockwinkel. Both, men far above Vader's pedigree or So while you can speculate that Vader is capable of going thirty minutes, I know Andre can.
They'd go home disappointed, just like the fans at the Sumo Hall who watched Vader debut by defeating Antonio Inoki. They rioted.
I believe it, they were on Inoki's home turf. But what you fail to mention is that this was Inoki's second match of the night-in a row at that- and Vader's first.

These fans can riot to after Vader breaks Andre's knee.
Which would get him disqualified.

That is provided Andre is sober for the match.
Yes, I know, late in his career he came to the ring drunk or drank on the apron during tag matches with Haku. But what does Andre being sober for the match have to do with anything?


Vader is 3-1 vs Sting in major matches.
How does a loss by DQ and two pinfall losses equal 3-3? He was 3-3, if my memory serves me correct.

This bears no weight at all, mate. They've both lost to Hogan.
Andre, past his prime, beat Hogan. Vader in his prime never did.

Andre was crushed by the Ultimate Warrior, and Vader owned Sting. Take from that what you will.
Their matches were at house shows-Andre's and Warrior's-and again, they were contested when Andre was past his prime. Having a 3-3 record against a man isn't "owning" him.

The 2nd greatest Super Heavyweight of all time beating the Greatest Super Heavyweight of all time? It could happen.
Vader was formidable in Japan and left one of the greatest legacies there then almost any other wrestler. There's no denying that. But Andre had a greater legacy, and especially as a prime babyface, was a bigger draw. People paid to see him win, which he almost always did.

As for Vader being #2 and Andre #1 in terms of Super Heavyweights? I'm not going to argue that. And #2 beating #1 certainly happens in professional wrestling. I just don't believe it happens here.

I will, of course, be voting Vader.
Voting for your favorite wrestler? I'm shocked! ;)
 
This is definitely a stipulation that favors one man over the other, and that man is Vader. Sure, Andre in his 70s prime was no slouch and was highly athletic, but even then you rarely saw him work more than 20 minutes at a time. Sure, 30 minutes isn't that far out of his reach and he could conceivably last that long without tiring, but would he be as fresh as Vader? I just don't think so. It's a bit unfair, but because of Andre's gigantism and health problems even in his prime, this definitely favors Vader.

Plus, for as incredible of a career as Andre had, Vader had a better one. Andre's big claim to fame was his undefeated streak (which wasn't even legit because he lost several times during that period in Japan), but as far as title reigns and tangible accomplishments? Not much there. Vader on the other hand was an actual World champion unlike Andre and was not only far and away a better worker and mic guy, but he was just as unstoppable of a monster in his prime as Andre, one could even argue more so because of his incredible tenacity and intensity in the ring.

This one would be a hard fought battle and one I'd LOVE to see with both men in their prime (preferably in front of a Japanese crowd that would gawk and freak out like two Godzillas were wrestling in the ring) but I've gotta go with Vader. He was just as successful in the WWF as Andre was, and accomplished far more outside of the 'E. Plus, you know, he's so fucking tough when his eyeball pops out of his skull he just casually pops it back in and continues wrestling. There's nothing Andre could throw at him he couldn't handle.
 
interesting match, interesting discussion.

my initial thought was the vader yokozuna feud, but as someone pointed out yoko was a bit past his prime. im a huge fan of andre from any era, but the andre from the 70s was unstoppable. so far id give the edge to andre, but then the 30 min stipulation comes into effect. neither man was known as an "iron man", especially andre as most of his matches usually ended quickly. in the end i think the size and strength of andre overpowers vader and after andre scores one pin it wouldnt be long before he scored another. winnwe-andre the giant
 
I had to go with Andre. 70's Andre would be able to get a fall or two over Vader. Rarely did anyone get a win over Andre let alone 2 pins in the same night. I just can't see Vader pulling this one off.
 
Another minor note: Since this is the international region, and the match is taking place in England, the Andre the Undefeated Giant myth doesn't hold here. Andre was unpinned in the WWWF, and as far as I know, any U.S. promotion anywhere, but he was pinned before in Japan and Mexico.

Again...not a stretch to think that this isn't being contested in a promotion that views Andre as unbeatable.
 
You know who was a massive attraction in wrestling for several years? Andre the Giant.

You know who wasn't? Vader.

I hope we can get over this consistent overegging of Vader as one of the top 16 wrestlers of all time. He's not even in the top 60. Andre should go through here because he is a better professional wrestler than Vader in just about every way.
 
You know who was a massive attraction in wrestling for several years? Andre the Giant.

You know who wasn't? Vader.

There are plenty of reasons to vote for Andre, but this is certainly not one of them. Outside of Wrestlemania 3, how often did Andre draw 50,000+ to watch him wrestle? Not often. Vader did it a good half dozen times alone in the mid 90s. His feud and subsequent match against Inoki is one of the highest drawing money making feuds and matches in pro wrestling history.

Claiming Vader wasn't a massive attraction is simply flat out wrong. He was a top draw in Japan during one of the most lucrative wrestling booms ever (New Japan alone put on something like 15 of the 30 highest drawing cards in pro wrestling history in the 90s alone).

Besides Andre was more of a freakshow spectacle for most of his career than an actual legit main eventer that would be put at the top of the card. Vader was a main eventer most of his career.
 
90% of people my age I know would have some vague inkling about who Andre the Giant is. Literally nobody I know, with the exception of the people I've met on here and one friend from back in the day would know who Vader is. To even suggest that because he sold out (along with several other 'megastars') a few shows in Japan, which is not in London, he's bigger than Andre is literally the stupidest argument in the world.

NJPW could put on any old bullshit and sell out the Tokyo Dome. The list of the biggest drawing shows ever:

http://www.profightdb.com/cards-with-highest-attendance-pg1.html

Xfear is absolutely right to say that NJPW have some high drawing cards. However, if you look at most of the top few pages, you will notice that Vader isn't on most of them, and many of them feature such classic encounters as Scott Norton vs Road Warrior Hawk. Like I said, any old bullshit would sell out the Tokyo Dome in the 90s, Andre is probably the third most recognisable wrestler of all time after Hogan and The Rock.
 
Like I said, any old bullshit would sell out the Tokyo Dome in the 90s, Andre is probably the third most recognisable wrestler of all time after Hogan and The Rock.

What was special about Andre in his prime besides his size?

The answer: Not a helluva a lot.

To say otherwise is basically to say that The Big Show would've been in the top 3 wrestlers ever had he just been born in the right era.

On the other hand, I have no problem saying that if Andre the Giant were to show up today in the WWE, we'd be posting threads about is he better or worse than Great Khali or Giant Gonzales.

There are so many wrestlers who you say would've been a huge success no matter what era they wrestled in: Kurt Angle, Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, and I'd say Vader is one of those.

Andre was not.
 
90% of people my age I know would have some vague inkling about who Andre the Giant is. Literally nobody I know, with the exception of the people I've met on here and one friend from back in the day would know who Vader is. To even suggest that because he sold out (along with several other 'megastars') a few shows in Japan, which is not in London, he's bigger than Andre is literally the stupidest argument in the world.

Well I wasn't suggesting at all that Vader was a more well known name than Andre, so no worries there. I was simply responding to your claim that Vader wasn't a draw, which as you can see yourself, is simply false.

But I'm not sure why "pop culture awareness" should play a factor into this match. So what if more people know who Andre the Giant is? That doesn't necessarily benefit him in this match, nor does it make him a superior wrestler.

NJPW could put on any old bullshit and sell out the Tokyo Dome. The list of the biggest drawing shows ever:

http://www.profightdb.com/cards-with-highest-attendance-pg1.html

Xfear is absolutely right to say that NJPW have some high drawing cards. However, if you look at most of the top few pages, you will notice that Vader isn't on most of them, and many of them feature such classic encounters as Scott Norton vs Road Warrior Hawk. Like I said, any old bullshit would sell out the Tokyo Dome in the 90s,

You list off Norton vs Hawk like it was a main event match when it was clearly a midcard match. That's like judging the drawing power of Wrestlemania 3 based on the midget match with King Kong Bundy. Tokyo Dome sold out so many times because NJPW was on fire as a promotion and had bar none the best junior heavyweight wrestling on the planet along with an incredible main event scene full of legendary performers. When you have guys like Inoki, Muta, Liger, Chono, and others it's not hard to see why they sold out so often.

Have no doubt about it though, the 1/4/96 Dome show's true main draw was the Vader/Inoki match, and that drew well over 60,000. So your argument of Vader not being a draw is flat out wrong.

Andre is probably the third most recognisable wrestler of all time after Hogan and The Rock.

Again, I don't really see why that should matter that much.
 
Have no doubt about it though, the 1/4/96 Dome show's true main draw was the Vader/Inoki match, and that drew well over 60,000. So your argument of Vader not being a draw is flat out wrong.

That has far more to do with Inoki, who is actually at the top of the card in many of those shows, which are almost all headlined by Japanese wrestlers. If you're saying Vader is the draw when he's the 7 th of 11 matches on the card, why isn't Scott Norton?
 
That has far more to do with Inoki, who is actually at the top of the card in many of those shows, which are almost all headlined by Japanese wrestlers. If you're saying Vader is the draw when he's the 7 th of 11 matches on the card, why isn't Scott Norton?

Also to pigback off your point, Vader was a draw in Japan but so was Andre. Andre might've actually been a bigger draw in Japan than Vader.
 
That has far more to do with Inoki, who is actually at the top of the card in many of those shows, which are almost all headlined by Japanese wrestlers. If you're saying Vader is the draw when he's the 7 th of 11 matches on the card, why isn't Scott Norton?

It takes two men to perform a wrestling match (well unless you're Kota Ibushi and then you just need an inflatable doll) so regardless of whether Inoki was more important than Vader, Vader played a big role in that match, which despite being on 7th out of 11, was undoubtedly the biggest match on the card. The build up and anticipation to that match was intense and huge, with TV focusing on it endlessly. Inoki didn't want to take away from his own homegrown talent's chance to shine on the biggest show of the year though, hence booking his match 7th of 11. Remember he was the booker at the time.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore man. Vader drew money. Whether it was as much or more than Andre, whatever, but your initial argument of Vader not being an attraction or draw is definitely wrong. That's my only real point.
 
It takes two men to perform a wrestling match (well unless you're Kota Ibushi and then you just need an inflatable doll) so regardless of whether Inoki was more important than Vader, Vader played a big role in that match, which despite being on 7th out of 11, was undoubtedly the biggest match on the card. The build up and anticipation to that match was intense and huge, with TV focusing on it endlessly. Inoki didn't want to take away from his own homegrown talent's chance to shine on the biggest show of the year though, hence booking his match 7th of 11. Remember he was the booker at the time.

I don't even know what you're arguing anymore man. Vader drew money. Whether it was as much or more than Andre, whatever, but your initial argument of Vader not being an attraction or draw is definitely wrong. That's my only real point.

The way you ascertain if someone is a draw is by comparing similar shows with and without them and how they drew - you know Hogan is a draw because the WWF's ratings went higher when he wrestled. You know The Rock is a draw because more people bought PPVs he was on. You know Andre is a draw because cards with him on drew bigger audiences than those without him.

The show you are talking about drew 64,000. I'll have to take your word that the 7th match of 11 that was only the third longest in duration was the main advertised attraction, I wasn't watching Japanese television in 1996.

A show for the same company in the same venue, NJPW vs UWFI, 3 months earlier drew 67,000 with no Vader on the card. Battle Formation 3 months later drew 65,000 with largely the same wrestlers but no Vader. It's clear Vader didn't lose fans, which is important, but you've shown nothing to suggest he actually drew any fans to a promotion.
 
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