If you didn't like Taker/HHH match...

[hardmick33]

***As an initial disclaimer, I call “superstars” wrestlers. I don’t agree with WWE’s push to make them otherwise and I will not placate their attempt to do so.

I know the opinion I am fighting is the minority regarding this topic, and that is exactly as it should be, but I have also heard from wrestling “writers” over the past few days that the Undertaker/HHH match at Wrestlemania 28 is not all it is cracked up to be.

As a fan of wrestling for over 20 years, this saddens me to a degree and because of that, I had to get an opinion from others in the IWC community. I have, in many instances, disagreed with the IWC’s opinion. I am a “smark” but at the same time try to see the product as a “mark”. I find it more enjoyable that way, but in this particular example I find the criticism to be in inexcusable. I find some things the IWC as a whole holds dear to be to blame for any negative opinion on this match. Those are:

- The main argument I have seen is that for half of the match both competitors were “rolling around.” First let me say first that I LOVE ROH! Love it. I find it to be as close to the original ECW, as far as body sacrifice by the performers, that you can possibly get in today’s wrestling. Not the same, but the men who perform for ROH are insane and for that I commend them to a fault. This, however, is NOT ROH. This match was a Wrestlemania match. This was supposed to be a story on one man’s fight to beat an unbeatable man at an unbeatable time. Those men “rolling around” were selling the fight throughout and did a remarkable job doing so. People aren’t supposed to be able to be back dropped off of an announce table, powerbombed, and hit with chair shots then suddenly start walking around and fighting like crazy. It’d be tough.

- Kicking out of finishers – Between Taker and HHH I can’t count how many finishers they both kicked out of. I know, it was somewhere between 7 and 14, but I’m also not sure what constitutes as a finisher for either anymore. I think that’s the point. Both have built such a large repertoire of moves that devastate the opponent to the point that the other shouldn't survive. But think about how much was on the line with this match. How can you doubt their tenacity? Has anyone who criticizes this match been in a fight and known what adrenaline feels like? That I highly doubt. Also, in a realistic sense, two men who have given their bodies, their lives, to the art that is professional wrestling put this match together. They are beaten and broken men who not only are hurting while we watch and judge, but also are coming off of several months away from the ring. They need time to recoup and yet somehow (thanks very much to JR’s amazing commentary) get the viewer on their feet while they “roll around.” Just because they are selling a beating, does not make the match bad, it makes someone who hates it not understand what pro wrestling is supposed to be.

I find these issues to be held by individuals who don’t know wrestling history, but appreciate “spot monkeys” and need people to be doing back flips at all times in order to keep interested. I love those matches too, but when you have 2 men over their 40s in the ring that’s not going to happen. You need to love a story. You need to love Savage vs Steamboat, Hart vs Michaels (Ironman Match), Hart vs Austin, (here comes my HBK love) HBK vs Jericho, HBK vs Flair, and ALL Taker vs Michaels matches (even HITC). All of these matches have “downtime” but they all also have story behind them and all the “downtime” does is build on that story. I’m looking for someone to have an argument otherwise. If you agree with me, please post and say so. On the other hand if you disagree with me PLEASE post and say so. I would love to hear what your rationale is for not liking Taker vs HHH because I, for the life of me, can’t get it and would love to debate you.

 

[Cena's #1 In My Heart]

I created the John Cena overselling thread.

I do think HHH and Taker did spend a little too much time crawling around. Once again, there is selling, and there is just being ridiculous. The guys could have worked a little faster match, at some points I keep daydreaming off during the match and I'd refocus myself to see these guys just crawling around... and it kept going on.. and on... every move... I agree with selling, but too much is TOO MUCH. Especially with HD Television these days.. it just doesn't look real half of the time. And the fact you couldn't hear the crowd that well because of the Dome, just weakened all the matches IMO.

With that being said.. I did like the match, I liked the story being told in it.. and after it. The thing where Undertaker couldn't even stand was believable for me after the match.. there is a big difference between willing yourself to roll a shoulder and stand on your feet.

This match did a great job of leaving us with more questions. I think I have more questions right now than I did coming into this match.

How long will Taker be out? Will he ever be the same again? We just seen the man get carried out on a cart...

I literally thought they were going to say he was dead, because at one point he just layed still with his eyes opened and thats when the cart came... but he started moving again.

 

[harrythem]

I wasn't overly impressed with the match, to be honest, and I'm not going to blame Taker and HHH for that, I'm blaming JR & The King.

To me a good match is only made more exciting by lively commentary but, to me, they didn't seem that passionate about the match and, it took a lot away from the match.

Honestly, JR & King calling that match a few years ago would've added a lot to it but, at Mania, they did the wrestlers a disservice

 

[Azane]

I've had a similar criticism with the last 2 HBK matches for Taker as well, They're still amazing matches, but theres only so many ways you can Last ride, Tombstone, and chokeslam someone before it gets repetitive, and all 3 matches look like a Finisher Highlight reel missing everything in between.

I found the spot where Triple H grasped the hammer, then dropped it to be Amazingly captured, Awesome job by the Cameraman, as well as the men inside, That small motion told half the story of the match.

 

[Dzone]

I did sort of enjoy 'Taker vs HHH but I thought the crowd was seriously just weird (at least it seemed like that on tv). The crowd seriously took away from some matches and I need to ask did 'Taker get Injured for real during the match?

 

[Mr. Perfect/Ziggler Fan]

I don't exactly know what your opinion was, because I don't think you clearly stated whether you loved the match or not. You just gave opinions on why each side did/didn't like it.

So, I don't know if this is agreeing with you, but I wasn't too impressed with it. I mean, yeah, it was a 'street fight', so I didn't expect a great 'back and forth' technical masterpiece.

Whether or not the match was a great one is up to each person who watches it, but I don't see how many people can say the finish was great. A surprising triangle choke hold out of nowhere? Awesome. I liked it. I even liked how they kept the move on for what seemed like a couple minutes. But after all that time, HHH taps out? It would have been much better (in my eyes, at least) if the ref had tested HHH's hand a few times to see if it fell 3 times, and after a few times of him doing that, it finally fell the third time. But I'm not a WWE writer, so more power to 'em.

Not to all negative, I will say I liked HHH giving the Undertaker a Tombstone. And he executed it pretty damn good, too. I fully expected Undertaker to reverse it, and win with that, but I liked HHH doing it.

With all that, I just wonder who Undertaker's last WM match will be, assuming it's next year. I've always thought he might go Andre the Giant's route and 'pass the torch' to a future star. Only if Undertaker respects him enough, as Andre did with Hogan.

 

[CuddleBuns84]

I have to disagree...

I loved the match. Very brutal. Very good selling.

I also thought the announcing team did a great job. JR and The King, calling that match was great. Those two back together, make things fun. It was good to have.

As for kicking out of finishers. It's WrestleMania. This is where kicking out of finishers work. If you look at Stone Cold vs. The Rock WM17... Those two beat the hell out of each other. Then then 20 chair shots to put away the great one.

Plus, another thing. Face vs. Face matches will always be like this. Hogan and Warrior was back and fourth. HBK vs. Hart was to the final wire. It's a good thing to have. It makes the profession seems like a sport. Matches like these are great for the business.

Overall. I loved the match. It was a huge highlight. Like to see more of them. At least 4 times year. Doesn't have to be the same guys, but, it would really help the industry out.

 

[blackmetalbuick]

My only real problem with the match doesn't even have anything to do with the two of them as individual performers, just the way these big WM matches are written in general. We suspend our disbelief so often as wrestling fans, but asking me to totally accept different laws of nature and physics just because they are wrestling on a certain special show goes a bit too far. Sure, I'll give them the "adrenaline" kayfabe excuse that it's a big match for both of them, and maybe they can kick out of a finisher or two just because of that. I just didn't like how early the match broke down into finishers. We all knew it would happen and we all knew there would be kickouts, but rather than try to mask it in some semblance of how a regular match goes, they just flaunted the finisher-fest shamelessly. I said it in another thread earlier tonight, I think the most shocking thing to do at one of next year's big WM matches is to have someone hit a finisher and get a 3 count on the first try. Otherwise what are WM matches going to turn in to? You can't just "top" last year's match by kicking out of even more finishers. How many Pedigrees are we going to see next time? Sure, it's a good way to create suspense and excitement, to an extent. A finisher is a move which usually ends the match. To get people thinking the match is over and then kicking out at 2.9 is a cheap way to keep people on the edge of their seat. But there's gotta be more to the "big match" storytelling than all these finishers.

That's really my only complaint, the way the storytelling so drastically changes. Sure it's a "big match" atmosphere just like there are "big games" in other sports where the athletes might go above and beyond what you would normally see. But if matches work a certain way the other 364 days of the year, if a finisher is a finisher the other 364 days of the year, try to follow that guideline somewhat. Might as well say matches at WM must be won by a 5 count instead of a 3 count if guys are so supernaturally more powerful on one day of the year, that would be no less goofy. I had no problem with the selling of the moves or anything else.

 

[theshawn]

Some people have given the ending a bad rap, but I have to agree with the guy who said Triple H grabbing the hammer, raising it up only slightly and dropping it to be amazing. It was a better finish then having Triple H suddenly spring to life and tombstone Triple H. Well the selling was a little out there, it was by far the best match of an otherwise very mediocre card. (Minus Edge VS Alberto Del Rio). Of course it can't live up to HBK vs Taker, but that's because HBK and Triple H have totally different in ring styles, and HBK's seemed to flow with Takers just a little better. People should be happy with what they got, I was expecting it to be a disappointment, but I was rather happy with it.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

The selling was AMAZING. They made it look like a battle. I HATE ROH main events where they just forget the last 20 minutes. Austin Aries and Nigel McGuinness both did this shit.

The match told a great story. The story was that Triple H is every bit as much of a badass as Taker. Something that has pretty much never been done beyond new wrestlers coming in and then losing (Giant Gonzales, Kane, Mankind to an extent). The start immediately throwing bombs at each other. They took brutal bumps (Triple H's off the announce table, Takers dive) then Triple H slowly started to get the advantage. Because the pedigrees weren't video game clean, it made it look more like a struggle and really added to the realness of the match. Triple H went from being confident, to baffled that Undertaker would kick out of a Pedigree, to pissed, so he hits the tombstone and is POSITIVE he's going to win and Taker still kicks out. Triple H gets despirate, grabs the hammer, then with every ounce of strength left, Taker pulls him into the choke. The choke is the only finish that works here because a lift isn't realistic. Plus the choke is something that can show determination. Determination from Taker to not let go. The mini story of Triple H trying to get the hammer was even more awesome. The BEST part was how Triple H tapped. He tapped Taker's shoulder, which means he gives up, but just look at the shot and how he does it, it's almost like a "good job" tap. Other little things like Taker stumbling up and still having his fists up. Triple H having destroyed taker so much that when he grabbed Triple H's neck it did no good.

How ANYONE who really loves wrestling for the emotion and storytelling can bitch about awesome selling is beyond me. I'm sorry if you'd rather see a Taiji Ishimori or Marufuji match where no selling is done, but I'd taker Triple H vs Taker over that any day of the week.

it's almost as bad as the ****** that said Orton just laid around all match when his leg was getting worked on.

O, this post is awesome.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did sort of enjoy 'Taker vs HHH but I thought the crowd was seriously just weird (at least it seemed like that on tv). The crowd seriously took away from some matches and I need to ask did 'Taker get Injured for real during the match?

My girlfriend asked me this, and my cousin watching in a different city texted me the same question. If 3 people ask "is he really hurt" I'd say the selling was pretty fuckin phenomenal.

Something else Taker did that was just a little thing but it was great. He did the motor function test on himself. He lifted his arms in front of his face and touched his fingers to his thumbs. You do this if you've had a head or neck injury and you think you have another one. Selling > shitty spotfests any day of the week.

 

[MaxSteel]

To be honest, since the very first moments of the match, I was paying my utmost attention to it, and my conclusions were:

- The early-mid match consisted of pretty impressive wrestling, which was even amazing considering both superstars haven't been active for month (if you dont count a few HHH matches at house shows). Each move looked like it has a HUGE impact. When Taker dropped HHH off of the anounncer desk, I seriously thought he might have been injured.

- All the finishers + kickouts told a great story.

- The wrestlers themselves told a great story, such as HHH screaming "Stay down! What's wrong with you?!"

- HHH dropping the hammer... and JR's comment 1 second before it ("Not like this") was epic. It even made you wonder whether HHH did it out of pain or.. pity for Taker? (wonder from a keyfabe point of view.)

- The god forbidden Chair Shot (!) to the head was the creaming of the pie.

- The ending made even smarks wonder if Taker was truly injured.

In short, it wasn't as good as HBK - Taker (in most aspects), but it was surely close to it.

 

[JJ15776]

Did this match live up to either of Taker's matches with HBK? No, and I think that hurt this match. It took me longer to get into it because of the greatness of those matches. But it won me over eventually.

And that was one of the best submission endings to a match I've ever seen. Like others said, the drama behind Triple H picking up the sledgehammer only to drop it again...and great work by the cameraman and production truck to capture Triple H tapping. It reminded me of Fedor Emelianenko tapping in his match against Werdum. And not because it was the same move. He wasn't pounding the mat, desperately trying to get out of the hold, like most people do...he was left with no choice but to reluctantly tap to avoid losing consciousness.

It wouldn't have made sense for Undertaker to magically find the energy to put Triple H down for a pinfall, and I'm glad they didn't go the Hart/Austin route and have Triple H pass out instead of tap out. It was the perfect ending.

 

[alistahr]

I did sort of enjoy 'Taker vs HHH but I thought the crowd was seriously just weird (at least it seemed like that on tv). The crowd seriously took away from some matches and I need to ask did 'Taker get Injured for real during the match?

onyl reason the crowd took away from it is cause that match was terrible, just incredibly boring. Finisher after finisher with constant kick outs doesnt make a match great. I went to get something to eat during that awful thing. Whatever story they were trying to tell was filled with plot holes so fuck it.

 

[therealblob]

I personally really enjoyed the match. As a massive Taker fan very little of what he does I can fault. I don't know whether it felt the same to everyone but perhaps the comments from others about the crowd and the commentary being a little flat had anything to do with the position of the match on the card and the strength of the matches before it. The last WM had HBK/Taker was on last so that everything built up to that final crescendo of anticipation. HHH/Taker had the Cole/Lawler match preceding it where the crowd were shouting "Boring" and I wonder whether that transmitted itself somewhat to the viewing public in the arena and at home.

Perhaps because it was IMO the most memorable match of the night there is plenty of discussion on it which begs the question about the strengths and weaknesses of the rest of the card...perhaps leave that one for another thread but I concur with the comments about the camera work.

Was it oversold? Perhaps it was but then what other moves do HHH/Taker have that could have kept the kickouts total lower and made the match longer? It had the feel of 2 behemoths going full pelt with everything knowing that one eventually had to yield.

 

[Saeros]

I may come across arrogant here but anyone who thinks the Taker vs HHH match last sunday was anything below a brilliant match really needs to find out what wwe/wwf wrestling is all about.

Was it an awesome bout of technical display...No
Did it have 15 high spots in the match...No
Did it portray a mind blowing story of what wrestling is supposed to be about?

Yes my friends, yes it did. See i think some people forget what constitutes to a good match.

It doesnt have to be 30 minutes of awe inspiring grapples, holds and moves. It has to be entertaining, be that using weapons, doing high spots, or being totally mat based. As long as you tell a story in the ring, thats what will keep the viewers interested. If you're comparing this match to matches in ROH where yes, the wrestlers are more technically sound most of the time, then you're just an idiot.

If you watch the match closely, and observe the crown closely, you will see why this match was great. For the first 10 minutes, the front row seemed bored and uninterested, just like most of the matches that night. But then as they started to "roll around" and as the match progressed, the crowds interest grew, and grew and grew, and i remember a blonde woman sitting in the front row looking totally bored throughout the whole of wrestlemania, and yet when Undertaker kicked out of the tombstone, her reaction was that of pure surprise. If you look around her aswell, everyone was on the edge of their seats.

My girlfriend who has no interest in wrestling apart from that of drooling over Randy Orton, was falling asleep on the sofa, yet during that match, she couldnt take her eyes of the tv. My 8 year old nephew who consistantly says "wrestlings gay" when i was watching the repeat on sky box office last night, he sat there mouth wide open wanting triple H to win.

That is why this match was fantastic. When you are able to change a crowds thoughts and feelings, That is when you have a classic match.

And to those who said that JR and the king took away from the match, seriously? what planet are you from? Those 2 did an awesome job. They knew when to shut up and just let the match speak for itself. They sold the beating the Undertaker took even more, and IMO, made the match even better.

I apologise if i come across as rude and berating people for having an opinion. I don't intend to do that. But seriously, some people need to get a grip and admire the match for what it was meant to be. It wasnt meant to be a fantastic pure wrestling match. Undertaker is obviously still not 100% in terms of fitness levels Yet he still gave as much as he could.

It was meant to be a fantastic story, with twists and turns, and it overdone itself by making even those uninterested in wrestling, keeping their eyes glued on the action.

 

[Fm3 Hitman]

IMO, I wasn't exactly happy with the match when I watched it live on PPV. But, after watching it 2 more times bc of all the debate, I have to admit I really appreciated it and enjoyed it. However, I do think that another 7 mins of faster paced action in the beginning of this match would've benefited the pace greatly, even added to the drama of all the finishers and 2 counts at the end, bc it just felt like they did big spots too soon and dragged the pace down too early.

 

[GameOver]

but the thing is, he WAS really hurt. so it wasn't totally selling

He was injured going into the match, not too mention the age and injury list over the years added on top of botching several big moves during the match.

And both guys besides being old, hadn't been in action for months to a year so obviously had ring rust as far as being aerobicly fit enough.

Despite all of this, they still clearly had the match of the night. Was a match that didn't need commentry, they did more for the business, saying nothing then most of the promo's in the past few years.

What got me the most, i was convinced he had seriously injured himself with the several obviously botched moves he took. But at the end whether it was selling or not Triple H looked really concerned and wanted to help Taker get up when Taker was flailing around on the ringside. Wonder of that was reality or just a work "show of respect", well we'll never know since the refs stopped him.

 

[MizterColemine]

If 3 people ask "is he really hurt" I'd say the selling was pretty fuckin phenomenal.

I was suspected Undertaker was in pain from the very beginning of the match and CONVINCED he was truly injured or overworked at the end, thus I was very surprised to learn there were no new injuries worth reporting the next day.
[One thing I wanted to see was when Undertaker was lying still after the match, if after a while he did the "vintage" phenom-sit up!]
No, it wasn't Angle v Benoit or even HBK v Undertaker, and I, at points, was looking for more, however I was having those thoughts from the edge of my seat. I was on the edge from beginning and through the whole 5/10 min we were watching to see if Undertaker get up on his own, or be helped by Triple H (who also looked legit concerned), or wind up on a stretcher like what happened.
It wasn't the most action packed, but the analogy is that of an action packed popcorn movie to an oscar nominated drama with top notch acting.
Substance, baby!

 

[GameOver]

I may come across arrogant here but anyone who thinks the Taker vs HHH match last sunday was anything below a brilliant match really needs to find out what wwe/wwf wrestling is all about.

Was it an awesome bout of technical display...No
Did it have 15 high spots in the match...No
Did it portray a mind blowing story of what wrestling is supposed to be about?

Yes my friends, yes it did. See i think some people forget what constitutes to a good match.

It doesnt have to be 30 minutes of awe inspiring grapples, holds and moves. It has to be entertaining, be that using weapons, doing high spots, or being totally mat based. As long as you tell a story in the ring, thats what will keep the viewers interested. If you're comparing this match to matches in ROH where yes, the wrestlers are more technically sound most of the time, then you're just an idiot.

If you watch the match closely, and observe the crown closely, you will see why this match was great. For the first 10 minutes, the front row seemed bored and uninterested, just like most of the matches that night. But then as they started to "roll around" and as the match progressed, the crowds interest grew, and grew and grew, and i remember a blonde woman sitting in the front row looking totally bored throughout the whole of wrestlemania, and yet when Undertaker kicked out of the tombstone, her reaction was that of pure surprise. If you look around her aswell, everyone was on the edge of their seats.

My girlfriend who has no interest in wrestling apart from that of drooling over Randy Orton, was falling asleep on the sofa, yet during that match, she couldnt take her eyes of the tv. My 8 year old nephew who consistantly says "wrestlings gay" when i was watching the repeat on sky box office last night, he sat there mouth wide open wanting triple H to win.

That is why this match was fantastic. When you are able to change a crowds thoughts and feelings, That is when you have a classic match.

And to those who said that JR and the king took away from the match, seriously? what planet are you from? Those 2 did an awesome job. They knew when to shut up and just let the match speak for itself. They sold the beating the Undertaker took even more, and IMO, made the match even better.

I apologise if i come across as rude and berating people for having an opinion. I don't intend to do that. But seriously, some people need to get a grip and admire the match for what it was meant to be. It wasnt meant to be a fantastic pure wrestling match. Undertaker is obviously still not 100% in terms of fitness levels Yet he still gave as much as he could.

It was meant to be a fantastic story, with twists and turns, and it overdone itself by making even those uninterested in wrestling, keeping their eyes glued on the action.

It's true, It's Damn True. There match was what wrestling should be about. The entertainment stuff is fine, but the art is in telling a story and then finishing it with a match that extends that story. Don't need all the flashy moves, though they can be entertaining, don't need constant outside interferance, don't need hollywood stars hogging the spotlight

Just put 2 guys in the ring, give them emotional segments to build a rivalry and a match, then let them do all there talking physically.

Sell the pain, and put people on the edge of there seats wondering what if/what's next!!

Even though you knew reality that Taker would not lose, there was still several moments when it looked like they had decided to pull the trigger and end the streak.

and that my friends is the art of Pro Wrestling 101.

READ THIS WWE AND TNA creative.....

 

[Spying Lammer]

I like what you had to say, but to not call them superstars is kind of dumb, they are superstars. When you see them enter, thousands of people cheer for them and the feeling is very overwhelming in live. If a superstar doesnt do that to you, then let me guess its just a wrestler. Its called entertainment as well. If you dont know the difference then please let me know.

 

[stasheroo]

***As an initial disclaimer, I call “superstars” wrestlers. I don’t agree with WWE’s push to make them otherwise and I will not placate their attempt to do so.

I know the opinion I am fighting is the minority regarding this topic, and that is exactly as it should be, but I have also heard from wrestling “writers” over the past few days that the Undertaker/HHH match at Wrestlemania 28 is not all it is cracked up to be.

As a fan of wrestling for over 20 years, this saddens me to a degree and because of that, I had to get an opinion from others in the IWC community. I have, in many instances, disagreed with the IWC’s opinion. I am a “smark” but at the same time try to see the product as a “mark”. I find it more enjoyable that way, but in this particular example I find the criticism to be in inexcusable. I find some things the IWC as a whole holds dear to be to blame for any negative opinion on this match. Those are:

- The main argument I have seen is that for half of the match both competitors were “rolling around.” First let me say first that I LOVE ROH! Love it. I find it to be as close to the original ECW, as far as body sacrifice by the performers, that you can possibly get in today’s wrestling. Not the same, but the men who perform for ROH are insane and for that I commend them to a fault. This, however, is NOT ROH. This match was a Wrestlemania match. This was supposed to be a story on one man’s fight to beat an unbeatable man at an unbeatable time. Those men “rolling around” were selling the fight throughout and did a remarkable job doing so. People aren’t supposed to be able to be back dropped off of an announce table, powerbombed, and hit with chair shots then suddenly start walking around and fighting like crazy. It’d be tough.

- Kicking out of finishers – Between Taker and HHH I can’t count how many finishers they both kicked out of. I know, it was somewhere between 7 and 14, but I’m also not sure what constitutes as a finisher for either anymore. I think that’s the point. Both have built such a large repertoire of moves that devastate the opponent to the point that the other shouldn't survive. But think about how much was on the line with this match. How can you doubt their tenacity? Has anyone who criticizes this match been in a fight and known what adrenaline feels like? That I highly doubt. Also, in a realistic sense, two men who have given their bodies, their lives, to the art that is professional wrestling put this match together. They are beaten and broken men who not only are hurting while we watch and judge, but also are coming off of several months away from the ring. They need time to recoup and yet somehow (thanks very much to JR’s amazing commentary) get the viewer on their feet while they “roll around.” Just because they are selling a beating, does not make the match bad, it makes someone who hates it not understand what pro wrestling is supposed to be.

So is pro wrestling 'supposed to be' two old guard wrestlers breaking every piece of furniture they can find because neither is capable of wrestling?

This whole match was Plan C. Thrown together because they couldn't get the participants they truly wanted. And the company themselves knew it and they hid the fact that the match happened ten years ago. Never forget that.

The No Holds Barred stipulation was added to cover the fact that neither guy was capable of putting on a great wrestling match. How is it that throwing someone through a table and laying around for the next 5 minutes is now a 'wrestling match'?

I find these issues to be held by individuals who don’t know wrestling history, but appreciate “spot monkeys” and need people to be doing back flips at all times in order to keep interested. I love those matches too, but when you have 2 men over their 40s in the ring that’s not going to happen. You need to love a story. You need to love Savage vs Steamboat, Hart vs Michaels (Ironman Match), Hart vs Austin, (here comes my HBK love) HBK vs Jericho, HBK vs Flair, and ALL Taker vs Michaels matches (even HITC). All of these matches have “downtime” but they all also have story behind them and all the “downtime” does is build on that story.

Here's a big issue for me, this match went what? 30-40 minutes plus? And it consisted of about 10 minutes of true action and 20-30 minutes of rests and 'drama'. And that amount of time was taken from everywhere else on the card, and Wrestlemania as a whole suffered for it.

Other wrestlers get 5 minutes (or less) to 'tell their story' and try to fit as much action into that short time period as they can, to show what they can do and to get noticed. Then they're labeled and written off as 'spot monkeys'. How is it not a 'spot monkey' move to put someone through a table and rest for the next 5 minutes? It's still a 'spot', albeit one requiring a lot less talent to pull off.

I’m looking for someone to have an argument otherwise. If you agree with me, please post and say so. On the other hand if you disagree with me PLEASE post and say so. I would love to hear what your rationale is for not liking Taker vs HHH because I, for the life of me, can’t get it and would love to debate you.

I see this match for what I feel it was - 'Plan C' involving two wrestlers who were otherwise limited. A Wrestlemania Rewind match we saw ten years ago when both were in their primes. The company did what they could to make up for the obvious shortcomings.

I always appreciate a good debate as well.

 

[xcoN]

Again, this match wasn't as good because of Undertakers shoulder. He had very little movement in his shoulder which didn't allow for him to really wrestle. They pretty much made the no holds barred stipulation as a shield so he didn't have to wrestle, but use weapons and crawl around a lot. This is why they didn't have any matches or didn't have any physical contact during their feud for this match. Risk of injuring his shoulder was at stake. Undertaker needs to retire real soon but since he's 19-0 and basically gonna take a lot of time off I see him going 20-0 and nothing else after. The match itself was just ok for being a brawling type matchup. The build up for this was bad as well. Both guys came out on Raw and S.D. and said the same stuff except 'taker entertained and did a better job IMO. This obviously wasn't nearly as good as their match at W.M. 17.

 

[stilltippin]

It was the best match of the night and still wasn't that amazing.

All i saw was Finisher after finisher and kickout after kickout.. Couple spinebusters and a Illegal Chairshot to the head..

Yeah it had me thinking, Damn.. Wonder who will win if that didn't get him. but, so what.. The same thing would be said if anyone is dropping finishers every couple mins while the opponent kicks out everytime.

 

[willross]

Clearly you people saying you didn't like the match are not very enriched in wrestling and do, as said above, prefer psychology lacking spot monkey matches. The story telling was amazing up until HHH tapping out, I feel he should of passed out cause he refused to quit but it didn't take away from the match. As for the selling, in the first 5 or so minutes there was already a spinebuster through a table, back drop 10 feet to the ground, and a spear through the Cole Mine. How could they not be rolling around beat up?

As for the finishers being used often, that is for one reason, the story is both men NEEDED to win, so if you want to win, you go to your biggest move and you do it until it wins for you.

For those complaining about Taker being carted out and HHH walking out I will say this, Taker took twice the beating HHH did in that match and used his last bit of energy to lock in Hells Gate to win. I fully support the matches aftermath because HHH kicked the shit out of Taker for 25 minutes or so.

 

[blkshp]

I'm going to just say this: try taxing your body for 20-25 years, then in ur 40's, have your body driven through some tables and slammed repeatedly on the mat and see how much you would "roll around". I mean really people? (not everyone, just some people here). It just shows how spoiled rotten and judgemental people can get. Considering where these guys are in their lives and careers, they had a fantastic match. All I'm saying is don't ask for endless high spot fests then shit on the wrestlers later for being drug addicts who live on pain killers.