I like women's wrestling.

Martin Gabriel

Pre-Show Stalwart
I love it, as a matter of fact. But the problem I have with Western women's wrestling is that most of it is either slow-paced or it's soft-hitting action (like they're afraid to get hurt) or both. It may contain some scientific wrestling and but it's just not exciting if it's that.

Here's a link to a short match between Kana (c) and Tomoka Nakagawa for the SMASH Divas Championship. It's from Japan, obviously, and these two go hard and it's fast-paced. This is an example of what I wish Western women's wrestling is more like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RKTnUi2j54&feature=youtu.be
 
That's a really good match. Much stiffer and more technical than you would ever see WWE divas working.

The WWE uses the divas as pure tits and ass. Can't blame them, as the diva segments are often the highest rated. Most of the matches are pretty shitty tho. TNA books the divas a bit stronger, but most are hired for their looks as well.

From the 80's to mid 90's the WWE booked the divas as real wrestlers. To be honest, it wasn't very entertaining, but the pool of performers was always very limited. The last divas match/storyline I was really into was the Trish Stratus vs Micky James feud with culminated with a pretty good match at Wrestlemania 22.

I guess it's probably hard to find girls that are really attractive, and can put together a decent match.
 
It's a business. no one wants to watch skinny asian girls do headdrops. Shit, people don't even want to see skinny asian headdrops.

If you get past counting moves and 'being stiff' you'll realize that western women's wrestling is every bit as much an art. When Trish Stratus or Mickie James wrestling, they're constantly in character and they tell a story in the ring, they also use their unique flexibility and sexiness (not ****tiness) to get over. When Trish does a back bend to dodge a clothesline, that's sexy. It's not ****ty, but it's not something guys do.

Booking women as just another wrestling match is dumb and it's really close minded. You find out what makes them unique. Wrestling should be about variety. Why do I care if Victoria and Winter trade moves? I DO care that Beth Phoenix is fighting for every non barbie doll little girl who isn't going to get hired as easily because she doesn't wear a push up bra and too much make up. Pro wrestling is about storytelling and emotion. It has ALWAYS been about this.

I respect that you have your opinions, but just like kicking out of a million finishes doesn't get over here (and really doesn't get over in japan, it's still story), women doing the exact same thing as the men, doesn't really appeal. That just waters down the product even more and makes it all more of the same stuff. You need sex appeal (not curviness, but athletic sexiness similar to ana kornakova), you need comedy, you need badasses, you need douchebags, you need all american good guys, you need the blue collar babyface, etc.

I didn't like the match you showed either. Pretty much what most indy matches are. A bunch of no selling, head drops, stiff kicks, even the extremely fucking overdone "EPIC PIN ATTEMPTS". I mean, there is an armbar spot that they seem to sell as a falsie, which doesn't work because they never worked the arm before, I don't believe it hurt either because she wins with a schoolboy with the SAME ARM that was worked just 10 seconds before.... There's a cool spot where they counter a shining wizard with a blind ankle lock, however, it happens about 2 minutes in with no build. I mean, you see this match on every northeast indy show. One person has kickpads, one has shiny baggy pants, there's the "athletic competition" feeling out at the beginning. then there's the exchange of wristlocks and kip ups and missed basement dropkicks, even followed by the smarktastic courtesy applause. I HATE these kinds of matches. No story, no selling, no psychology, nothing. Just a bunch of headdrops and stiff kicks that are the only real looking spots, but they no sell them so they look fake. Everything else is basically gymnastics. I don't like this style and history shows that most other people, even people in Japan, don't like. It's about story. I had no reason to give a shit about either wrestler or about the moves they do because everything was no sold or didn't go anywhere, just a bunch of "look at how cool this is" spots. I mean, shining wizard countered into an ankle lock, released (why? do you not wanna win?), then a german suplex, which is no sold. It's like why the fuck do I care? Awesome, you just did a cool spot, you could train most athletes in the world to do that exact same thing. There is no emotion, no story, also not much of a house. Before you say "this style got over in Japan with Kobashi, Kawada, and Misawa"...no, it wasn't the style, it was the story. If it was the style, then NOAH's juniors would be over and they'd still have a TV time slot.

I understand that some people like this kind of match, but most don't.



I have a question. How is a 'stiff' match a good match? Second, how is this match technical? I mean, no one on here knows how to do every move, so how can you judge? also, just because they do a lot of moves and stiff spots, how does that make it a good match? Last question, if you hurt yourself and work hard, but no one gives a shit, does it matter?
 
It's a business. no one wants to watch skinny asian girls do headdrops. Shit, people don't even want to see skinny asian headdrops.

If you get past counting moves and 'being stiff' you'll realize that western women's wrestling is every bit as much an art. When Trish Stratus or Mickie James wrestling, they're constantly in character and they tell a story in the ring, they also use their unique flexibility and sexiness (not ****tiness) to get over. When Trish does a back bend to dodge a clothesline, that's sexy. It's not ****ty, but it's not something guys do.

Booking women as just another wrestling match is dumb and it's really close minded. You find out what makes them unique. Wrestling should be about variety. Why do I care if Victoria and Winter trade moves? I DO care that Beth Phoenix is fighting for every non barbie doll little girl who isn't going to get hired as easily because she doesn't wear a push up bra and too much make up. Pro wrestling is about storytelling and emotion. It has ALWAYS been about this.

I respect that you have your opinions, but just like kicking out of a million finishes doesn't get over here (and really doesn't get over in japan, it's still story), women doing the exact same thing as the men, doesn't really appeal. That just waters down the product even more and makes it all more of the same stuff. You need sex appeal (not curviness, but athletic sexiness similar to ana kornakova), you need comedy, you need badasses, you need douchebags, you need all american good guys, you need the blue collar babyface, etc.

I didn't like the match you showed either. Pretty much what most indy matches are. A bunch of no selling, head drops, stiff kicks, even the extremely fucking overdone "EPIC PIN ATTEMPTS". I mean, there is an armbar spot that they seem to sell as a falsie, which doesn't work because they never worked the arm before, I don't believe it hurt either because she wins with a schoolboy with the SAME ARM that was worked just 10 seconds before.... There's a cool spot where they counter a shining wizard with a blind ankle lock, however, it happens about 2 minutes in with no build. I mean, you see this match on every northeast indy show. One person has kickpads, one has shiny baggy pants, there's the "athletic competition" feeling out at the beginning. then there's the exchange of wristlocks and kip ups and missed basement dropkicks, even followed by the smarktastic courtesy applause. I HATE these kinds of matches. No story, no selling, no psychology, nothing. Just a bunch of headdrops and stiff kicks that are the only real looking spots, but they no sell them so they look fake. Everything else is basically gymnastics. I don't like this style and history shows that most other people, even people in Japan, don't like. It's about story. I had no reason to give a shit about either wrestler or about the moves they do because everything was no sold or didn't go anywhere, just a bunch of "look at how cool this is" spots. I mean, shining wizard countered into an ankle lock, released (why? do you not wanna win?), then a german suplex, which is no sold. It's like why the fuck do I care? Awesome, you just did a cool spot, you could train most athletes in the world to do that exact same thing. There is no emotion, no story, also not much of a house. Before you say "this style got over in Japan with Kobashi, Kawada, and Misawa"...no, it wasn't the style, it was the story. If it was the style, then NOAH's juniors would be over and they'd still have a TV time slot.

I understand that some people like this kind of match, but most don't.



I have a question. How is a 'stiff' match a good match? Second, how is this match technical? I mean, no one on here knows how to do every move, so how can you judge? also, just because they do a lot of moves and stiff spots, how does that make it a good match? Last question, if you hurt yourself and work hard, but no one gives a shit, does it matter?

I mean, I get it. Storytelling, sex appeal, blah blah blah. But I'm just saying, IIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiii like women's wrestling that's more stiff and fast-paced and really, the only story I need in this case is "I want this person to win" an...d IIIIIIIIIIiiii wish western women's wrestling was more like it. Because IIIIIIIIiii find it more exciting. Because guess what, it might not be the majority, but there are people out there that do want to see that. And I'm just guessing that because I'm one of them.

I mean, I really don't get people's problem with indy wrestling being so spot-infested. It's fucking exciting. And when you don't have a weekly tv show to build characters for the world to see, you gotta do something to keep your fans interested in the match.
 
I love it, as a matter of fact. But the problem I have with Western women's wrestling is that most of it is either slow-paced or it's soft-hitting action (like they're afraid to get hurt) or both. It may contain some scientific wrestling and but it's just not exciting if it's that.

Here's a link to a short match between Kana (c) and Tomoka Nakagawa for the SMASH Divas Championship. It's from Japan, obviously, and these two go hard and it's fast-paced. This is an example of what I wish Western women's wrestling is more like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RKTnUi2j54&feature=youtu.be


I would recommend checking out Chikara's "JoshiMania" if you haven't yet. There are many great female wrestling matches to watch on these shows. Toshie Uematsu, Manami Toyota, Sarah Del Ray, and Aja Kong among others make appearances.

http://youtu.be/mZ96ZGk2ywI
 
I mean, I get it. Storytelling, sex appeal, blah blah blah. But I'm just saying, IIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiii like women's wrestling that's more stiff and fast-paced and really, the only story I need in this case is "I want this person to win" an...d IIIIIIIIIIiiii wish western women's wrestling was more like it. Because IIIIIIIIiii find it more exciting. Because guess what, it might not be the majority, but there are people out there that do want to see that. And I'm just guessing that because I'm one of them.

I mean, I really don't get people's problem with indy wrestling being so spot-infested. It's fucking exciting. And when you don't have a weekly tv show to build characters for the world to see, you gotta do something to keep your fans interested in the match.
Indy wrestling isn't exciting to me. It's wrestling by the numbers. It's not hard for two guys to go in there, do a faux amateur style feeling out, trade some wrist locks, throw a few chest kicks, some suplexes, a long and repetitive roll up sequence, pretend like you care about working a body part, disregard it and not sell anything while you trade finishers and false finishes and no sell a finish for a "fighting spirit" spot, then win on an inside cradle. All you have to focus on is the moves. You don't have to think about story or selling or anything with substance. I'd rather watch gymnastics because they aren't pretending to be wrestlers. I used to like the indy style, but it got old to me really fast. The Dragon Gate 6 man in 2006 in ROH is boring to me now. It's just guys doing a bunch of stuff. Maybe eventually you'll grow out of the style, maybe not. To me, indy wrestling is like bro step. Some of it looks cool, it's fun in small doses, but there is rarely any artistic or emotional substance to it. Some guys do a hell of a job at faking it and making it seem that way. But at it's core, it's just a bunch of puro marks poorly immitating Kawada vs Misawa or KENTA vs Marufuji.

I completely understand that YOU like all these things, but expecting or even wanting the WWE to do something that would be a horrible move is pretty close minded. This style looks really fake because it's so contrived and they don't act like anything hurts. Most people hate it. If the WWE were to do it, then the smarks would love it, but even less people would care about their women' wrestling. There are a TON of US indy promotions who do the style you like to see with their women. TNA doesn't do as much of a Japanese style, but they have like 2 matches a week with women and usually only the Mickie James match is any good. The rest of the time (and I haven't watched in about a month so maybe I'm outdated), but the rest of the time it's just 2 women trading moves with no story or selling. ODB isn't bad either, she stays in character at all times.

Let me ask you this, did you like Mickie Jame vs Trish Stratus at Wrestlemania 22?
 
Indy wrestling isn't exciting to me. It's wrestling by the numbers. It's not hard for two guys to go in there, do a faux amateur style feeling out, trade some wrist locks, throw a few chest kicks, some suplexes, a long and repetitive roll up sequence, pretend like you care about working a body part, disregard it and not sell anything while you trade finishers and false finishes and no sell a finish for a "fighting spirit" spot, then win on an inside cradle. All you have to focus on is the moves. You don't have to think about story or selling or anything with substance. I'd rather watch gymnastics because they aren't pretending to be wrestlers. I used to like the indy style, but it got old to me really fast. The Dragon Gate 6 man in 2006 in ROH is boring to me now. It's just guys doing a bunch of stuff. Maybe eventually you'll grow out of the style, maybe not. To me, indy wrestling is like bro step. Some of it looks cool, it's fun in small doses, but there is rarely any artistic or emotional substance to it. Some guys do a hell of a job at faking it and making it seem that way. But at it's core, it's just a bunch of puro marks poorly immitating Kawada vs Misawa or KENTA vs Marufuji.

I completely understand that YOU like all these things, but expecting or even wanting the WWE to do something that would be a horrible move is pretty close minded. This style looks really fake because it's so contrived and they don't act like anything hurts. Most people hate it. If the WWE were to do it, then the smarks would love it, but even less people would care about their women' wrestling. There are a TON of US indy promotions who do the style you like to see with their women. TNA doesn't do as much of a Japanese style, but they have like 2 matches a week with women and usually only the Mickie James match is any good. The rest of the time (and I haven't watched in about a month so maybe I'm outdated), but the rest of the time it's just 2 women trading moves with no story or selling. ODB isn't bad either, she stays in character at all times.

Let me ask you this, did you like Mickie Jame vs Trish Stratus at Wrestlemania 22?

It IS the women's indy promotions I'm talking about that don't do what I wish they would do. Not WWE. And I didn't see Trish/Mickie from WM.
 
Like I said, it's not WWE that I want to do that. It's the WESTERN WOMEN'S WRESTLING which obviously includes WWE but I'm talking about independent women's wrestling promotions when I say that because I watch a lot of it and a lot of it jus...t isn't as good as it could potentially be. I pay $15-$20 for DVDs that are barely worth it 'cause the matches are slow-paced sissy bouts and by that I mean it's like they're too afraid to take a bump and their kicks ae sloppy. And it's american-style pro. wrestling none of that hard-hitting stuff you're talking about. I continue to buy and watch these DVDs anyway 'cause I like women's wrestling and the matches are hell of a lot better than what WWE's been giving. Yes, that includes Beth Phoenix matches, even ones that end in a top-rope Glam Slam. But I'm just saying, I want a better, more exciting product and IMO, Joshi is a hell of a lot more exciting than western women's wrestling.
 
There might not be much story in the wrestling I watch but sometimes I just wanna watch wrestling for that: wrestling. And like I said earlier, if I want a story out of it, I choose someone I want to win and then those "epic kickouts" you talk about get me excited like they should.
 
Women's wrestling is something is just like Men's wrestling, except downplayed a bit.

Like Men they tell stories by their actions, but they do it in a shorter period of time. I am a fan of both the WWE and Indy styles of wrestling, both can suck at times, and both can be epic at times. Mainstream female and Indy wrestling are no different. The reason I don't care for women wrestling in WWE is because it leads nowhere, there is not pay-off to the storylines. WWE doesn't give them enough time or focus to make me care about them. In the end Diva matches are bathroom break/resting from big event affairs, it would be the same even if they did stiff moves, and flips. I don't care if Women in Japan are doing 630s nor if Beth Phoenix is destroying barbies dolls, neither of them lead to anything important story-related or not. We just get more 4 minute diva matches that just happen... and then we move on to the important stuff.
 

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