How much of a clusterf'd crap was WCW post-April 2000?

[AegonTargaryen]

Spring Stampede 2000. All the vacant/vacated WCW titles are won by a bunch of obscure wrestlers as "young talent", except Steiner winning the WCW US title, and Jeff Jarrett(OMG) winning the WCW heavyweight title.

I watch Nitro from the next night, and I witness for the first time in my life the atrociousness that is Vince Russo with a microphone. My goodness. How does someone so terrible, characterized by so many halts and a weak voice get so much TV time!? (Rhetorical). Man oh man, thousands of balloons sink down in the arena and pervade it with an unendurable ghastliness. The piano theme that serves as the entrance music to Russo and Company seems ghastlier. And then they disparage Jim Ross multiple times, Russo and Jarret. "Kiss my ass J.R.". This proves how pathetic WCW management must be, so as to allow/tolerate their TV time spent in disparaging people from "the other promotion", using it to give free reigns and spurs to personal animosity. What's the last time a WWF announcer/superstar brought up their rivals? In 2000? Not really.

First of all, 70-80% of the roster/New Blood members seem either obscure or unremarkable to me:-
Tank Abbot. Chris Candido. Shane Douglas, David Flair. Horace Hogan. Big Vito. Johnny Stamboli. Lance Storm. Billy Kidman. "Crowbar". Aaah.
By God! Many of these would be featured on Smackdown but wouldn't even win a mid-card title. These are the "New Blood!" ? Meanwhile, Booker T, Sting, Lex Luger, DDP, Ric Flair just seem to be drifting and floating.

WWF meanwhile had been focusing on The Rock and HHH. Mick Foley's retirement. The rise of Angle. New stars such as Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, Malenko, Hardys, Edge and Christian were performing brilliantly.

The list of misdemeanours committed by WCW management/Russo/Bischoff in the year 2000 alone is endless and intricate. However, had they summoned some focus and steadiness instead of their staggering and whimisical ways, history would've been entirely different. After all, they did have over a dozen established main-event stars. Only, a quarter of them were to be disposed of or used sparingly. (Luger. Hogan. Flair. Sid Vicious.). Guys like Booker T were a proven and strong commodity as Heavyweight champions. Steiner was there. Sting was their resident Undertaker. Goldberg. DDP. What WCW failed to do ,WWF succeeded in.

What I infer is that the WCW at that time had no idea what is to be done and ended up with a Rehashed NWO/multiple stable clusterfuck. But why would they/did they not do the right thing?

What are some other instances of indecorousness and indignity that Russo/Bischoff committed that stick in your mind?

Any other thoughts about WCW in 2000, especially the New Blood/Millionaire's club storyline?

Finally, what could/should they have done to save the company?

 

[bioshock]

The problem with WCW at that time is they wanted to try and copy ECW and WWF Attitude except it was too little, too late and very forced. Rehashing old storylines didn't help either. And sure WCW had talent, they just didn't know how to use it, take Mysterio for instance, they just never pushed him, instead he gets his mask taken off and turns into a nobody.

I think had WCW turned back the clock and did what worked in 94-95 before the NWO, and just rely on wrestling and long played out feuds, with some decent gimmick matches at the PPVs they would of been OK, of course had they not had money problems which did them in no matter what.

 

[rmp0012002]

I think as the peak of the NWO era was dying out and they started have celebrities wrestling and actually winning titles it was like Vince had taken over and it became unwatchable. Once Hogan and his crew left WCW was pretty much as shell with nothing to work with and it was even more unwatchable. Hogan was a company killer, WCW and TNA prove that. WCW had the Atitude before WWE but when the AE started WCW went with a family wrestling show at AOL/TWC's insistence and had nothing to go against Vince with.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

First, I truly believe that no one really gives a shit about the pseudo-realistic shoots that wrestling trots out from time to time. It's okay for there to be a kernel of truth to an angle, but it's another to make it the primary focus of the angle. Russo felt that people were somehow dialed into all of this and created this mess where the Millionaires Club featuring pretty much every popular wrestler on the show faced off against the New Blood, which featured pretty much everyone else.

The problem isn't that they didn't have talent on the New Blood side of things: they most certainly did. The problem is that we were somehow being asked to choose guys like Billy Kidman and Vampiro over guys like Sting and Diamond Dallas Page. That was just never going to happen.

Second, we had to deal with an angle that consisted of a worked shoot interview with Hogan, another Fingerpoke of Doom, and Russo making the whole show about HIM.

Wrestling is not rocket science. It's a good guy versus a bad guy, and in the end, the bad guy should get his comeuppance. That angle has worked time and time again, and it really is what fans want in the end. Russo wanted to make the backstage politics the focus of the show, and let people decide who were the good guys and the bad guys with umpteen shades of gray. The result was a clusterfuck.

 

[rmp0012002]

First, I truly believe that no one really gives a shit about the pseudo-realistic shoots that wrestling trots out from time to time. It's okay for there to be a kernel of truth to an angle, but it's another to make it the primary focus of the angle. Russo felt that people were somehow dialed into all of this and created this mess where the Millionaires Club featuring pretty much every popular wrestler on the show faced off against the New Blood, which featured pretty much everyone else.

The problem isn't that they didn't have talent on the New Blood side of things: they most certainly did. The problem is that we were somehow being asked to choose guys like Billy Kidman and Vampiro over guys like Sting and Diamond Dallas Page. That was just never going to happen.

Second, we had to deal with an angle that consisted of a worked shoot interview with Hogan, another Fingerpoke of Doom, and Russo making the whole show about HIM.

Wrestling is not rocket science. It's a good guy versus a bad guy, and in the end, the bad guy should get his comeuppance. That angle has worked time and time again, and it really is what fans want in the end. Russo wanted to make the backstage politics the focus of the show, and let people decide who were the good guys and the bad guys with umpteen shades of gray. The result was a clusterfuck.

I had totally forgot about them redoing the roster and having the older guys lay down for the younger guys like that was somehow going to be acceptable.

 

[sMark]

1) half of their roster was bad, and that was the half that was pushed. Tank Abott, Rick Steiner, Horace oevr Sting, DDP and Hogan? No, thank you.
2) nobody like to see "office rat" on their TV regularly and wasting a lot of time, just ask IRS.
3) to be succesfull, you can copy good ideas of your rival, but you also need to make your own popular things and tweaks, just ask Vinny Mac
4) in no way you take all of your top stars off TV when you already have bad ratings and sales and expect fans to continue to watch no matter what
5) i still hate the certain office rat (can't remember his name) decision on closing WCW completely, but i also think Russo and Bischoff didn't have a what it takes to ressurect it.

In my opinion, what should be done is - fire all the guys that weren't good enough, focus on the rest, add in best indy guys to fill the empty spots, buy RVD from ECW and push him.

Here is WCW 200 march roster by the way:

Adrian Byrd
Allan Funk
Ashley Hudson
Asya
Bam Bam Bigelow
Barbarian
Barry Horowitz
Big Ron
Big T
Big Vito
Billy Kidman
Bobby Eaton
Booker T
Bret Hart
Brian Knobbs
Buff Bagwell
Buzzkill
Casey Thompson
Cassidy Riley
Chad Hart
Chavo Guerrero Jr.
Chris Candido
Chris Harris
Chuck Coates
Chuck Palumbo
Crowbar
Curt Hennig
DDP
Daphne
Dave Burkhead
David Flair
Dee Dee Venturi
Demon
Disco Inferno
Dog
Don Harris
Dustin Rhodes
El Dandy
Elix Skipper
Ernest Miller
Evan Karagias
Fidel Sierra
Fit Finlay
Frankie Lancaster
Frog
Great Muta
Hail
Hugh Morrus
Hulk Hogan
Idol
JC Ice
Jamie Noble
Jeff Jarrett
Jeremy Lopez
Jim Duggan
Johnny the Bull
Juventud Guerrera
Kanyon
Kaz Hayashi
Kevin Nash
Kid Romeo
Konnan
Kory Williams
La Parka
Lash LaRoux
Lenny Lane
Lex Luger
Little Jeannie
Lodi
Maestro
Matt Anderson
Mean Mike
Meng
Mike Jones
Mike Modest
Mike Rotunda
Mona
Norman Smiley
Paisley
Psychosis
Rave
Rey Mysterio
Ric Flair
Rick Baines
Rick Cornell
Rick Fuller
Rick Garcia
Rick Steiner
Ron Harris
Scott Armstrong
Scott Steiner
Scotty Zappa
Shane Helms
Shannon Moore
Shark Boy
Sid Vicious
Silver King
Sonny Siaki
Steve Armstrong
Stevie Ray
Sting
TAFKA Prince Iaukea
Tank Abbott
Terry Funk
The Wall
Todd Perry
Tommy Rogers
Torrie Wilson
Vampiro
Villano IV
Villano V
Wolfie D
Yang

 

[Really?]

Something negative posted about Vince Russo, and it hasn't been closed?? It's a Christmas miracle!!

The reality of WCW was that it was doomed long before the stunt booking of stripping the titles and doing a New Blood vs Millionaires Club angle. When you consider who was representing each faction, it was a joke from jump street.

Look, WCW rested their hopes on Booker, Jarrett, Steiner and Billy Kidman. Sprinkle in Sting/Vampiro, and it wasn't a recipe for success? No kidding.... Booker was never as good as some IWC guys want to think he was. Jarrett's biggest claim to fame at that point was holding Vince up for cash. Steiner was a bloated shell of the worker he once was. Kidman got to wrestle Hogan.

 

[TDFG]

What WCW needed together with the reboot was a clearout. Rotunda, Funk etc. time to move on, the likes of Flair, Sting are icons and could still appeal to any audience.

In saying that, It was time for Flair to take on a mentor role, they could have done worse than recreate the Four Horsemen with Flair as the senior, Jarrett & tag-team of some sort.

Having a main-event scene of Steiner, Sid, Booker T, Jarrett, Sting & DDP is ok, but there was no 'next big thing' coming through.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Having a main-event scene of Steiner, Sid, Booker T, Jarrett, Sting & DDP is ok, but there was no 'next big thing' coming through.

Absolutely. WWF had not one but three "next big things" coming between 1998(departure of Hart/Michaels) and 2000 in Austin, The Rock, and HHH. And that's not including Mick Foley!

The only "main-event" level stars WCW seems to have created between 1998 and 2000 are Booker T, DDP, and Goldberg; and the former two can't even be compared to WWF stars during that time.

I think that Vince Mcmahon, being in the predicament that he was, had somehow learnt to make the best use of the limited resources he had. When you watch a WCW ppv from 1997 or even a Nitro, it blows you away. Dozens of amazing japanese/mexican cruiserweights, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero in the mid-card. Over a dozen established names, from Sting, Flair and Hogan to Luger, Kevin, Nash, Hall, Piper, Randy Savage...Compare it with the WWF. The only thing worth watching there must've been HBK/Bret Hart, and occasional Undertaker feuds. Oh yeah, and Owen Hart.

But in 2000, WWF had both main-event talents, and a whole lot of new talent comrpising technically gifted wrestlers and mid-carders.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

There was a hell of a lot wrong with WCW in its final year. The strange thing was, a lot of ideas they tried were actually new, or variations on old ideas, but clearly they didn't have the talent to pull it off.

WCW 'crimes' included:

• the world title hot potato, particularly in May
• David Arquette winning the title and main eventing a ppv (Slamboree)
• the swift heel turn and back to face turn of Goldberg
• the 'Kiss' Demon
• Hugh Morrus, Lash LeRoux, Chavo Guerrero and Van Hammer becoming the army based gimmick of the misfits in action
• having Hacksaw Jim Duggan portray a janitor
• having Hacksaw Jim Duggan turn heel on the USA and join Team Canada
• pushing Tank Abbott
• the Maestro
• the Artist formerly known as Prince Iukea (a rio off of Prince a full 15 years after the hight of Prince's popularity)
• Kidman's truck ramming Hogan's Humvee in the car lot (I hate that gimmick whenever it is done, which is FAR too often in all promotions)
• Sting versus Vampiro - the Human Torch match
• Sting versus Vampiro - the graveyard buried alive match
• Ron and Don Harris
• referring to Lex Luger as merely the Total Package (it's like WWE dropping the Langston from Big E's name)
• Judy Bagwell on a pole match
• piñata on a pole match between the luchadores
• Viagra on a pole match

Some of these may have been earlier but it all molds into one in my mind

Despite that, they did a few things well, the two best being pushing Lance Storm (his matches in the middle of the year were pretty much the only reason to watch Nitro in this period) and the 3 Count/Yung Dragons feud and 6-man ladder match at Starrcade

 

[tvcolosi]

I'll go out on a limb and say the 4/10 reboot could have worked. Now the execution was terrible because, but not limited to, doing it either 6 or 13 days before that PPV. Planting seeds and getting stoylines blow off. It shouldn't have napped for 3 months minimum.

Not trying to plug a product but Russo did a shoot interview going over WCW 2000 show by show. I gained a small modicum of respect back for Vinnie-Ru and what he had to deal with.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

WCW 'crimes' included:
• Hugh Morrus, Lash LeRoux, Chavo Guerrero and Van Hammer becoming the army based gimmick of the misfits in action

I know about this one only based on second-hand knowledge such as Madden's articles. But the very names suggest a laughable bunch! "Hugh Morrus" ha ha ha.

• the 'Kiss' Demon
• the Maestro

No Idea what this is but I'm curious.

• Judy Bagwell on a pole match

Hahahaha. I infer Judy Bagwell is a hot blonde that unfortunately got entangled with Buff "boring" Bagwell? They raised her on a pole!?

• Sting versus Vampiro - the Human Torch match
• Sting versus Vampiro - the graveyard buried alive match

Even though Vampiro has never been a somebody of significance in the Wrasslin' biz'ness in the US, I think the sight of Sting and Vampiro in the ring and in those matches was cool and picturesque. Somewhat like a less iconic version of Kane/Taker in all those Buried Alive/Inferno/HIAC contexts. Why according to you was this too, a mistake on WCW's part ?

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

In reply to renaissanceman:

• they actually changed Hugh Morrus' name in the MIA to General Rection, or to give him his full name, General Hugh G. Rection. Sadly I'm not joking. Meanwhile Chavo became Lt. Loco (an inference to his 'crazy' gimmick), LeRoux was Cpl Cajun. Can't remember Van Hammer's 'hilarious' name.

• the Kiss Demon was originally portrayed by Bryan Adams, but he somehow managed to dodge that bullet. Demon made his debut during a Kiss mini-gig live on Nitro, and the character was dressed like a member of the band. Adams' replacement in the face paint, Dale Torborg, was an even worse wrestler than Adams was!

• the Maestro was a short lived character whose gimmick was that he was a classical pianist who performed his own entrance music. I guess he was like a WCW precursor to Fandango in many ways, and it was one of those gimmicks that is different enough to have a modicum of success but would never last long; sadly again the wrestler behind the gimmick sucked. Although it did allow the former Ryan Shamrock (stunning lady, terrible WWE name) to get back on tv.

• Judy Bagwell was Buff's MOTHER. At one point, Rick Steiner hand-picked her to be co-tag team champion with him. Utter sh*te

• Regarding the Sting v Vampiro matches, It just felt that both were stuck in rut, going through the motions during this feud. The human torch match was a terrible idea (not a fan of WWE's inferno matches either) and I think I'm right in saying the ending involved a stuntman; the buried alive match if I recall was terribly lit (on a 'graveyard' set) which made it difficult to follow the action.

 

[Vader]

I disagree with the Steiner bashing. When Scott Steiner first turned on Rick I thought he was just another rehash of the Hollywood gimmick. However, Steiner had huge roided physique, he cut great heel promos, and had a good move set from his amateur wrestling days. I easily see Steiner as the top heel in the company.

Unfortunately, the WCW put more eggs into the Jarrett basket then they should have. He was not the talent and the heel of the company that everyone wanted. Furthermore, when Jarrett came over he had just lost the Intercontinental title and was instantly put in the main event spotlight at WCW. That makes his push too much too soon. I'm not saying Jarrett didn't have the talent to be in the main event scene, but his push was too fast.

Hogan, Sting, and Flair should have been putting legit talent over at that time, not working angles with Vampiro and Kidman.

I could have seen some kind of faction with Flair, Steiner, and Jarrett working as the top heel group.

Sid Vicious has never been marketable. He is a big guy, but lackluster in the ring and on the microphone. He doesn't have a great gimmick and has never deserved to the forefront of the company the way he has on numerous occasions.

I think the WCW could have easily replicated what I would have considered the Ruthless Aggression, TV-14 era later on in the WWE. Unfortunately they tried to replicate the Attitude era, and spent too much time on lengthy promos, worked shoots, and gimmick matches.

 

[sikkbones]

In reply to renaissanceman:

• they actually changed Hugh Morrus' name in the MIA to General Rection, or to give him his full name, General Hugh G. Rection. Sadly I'm not joking. Meanwhile Chavo became Lt. Loco (an inference to his 'crazy' gimmick), LeRoux was Cpl Cajun. Can't remember Van Hammer's 'hilarious' name.

• the Kiss Demon was originally portrayed by Bryan Adams, but he somehow managed to dodge that bullet. Demon made his debut during a Kiss mini-gig live on Nitro, and the character was dressed like a member of the band. Adams' replacement in the face paint, Dale Torborg, was an even worse wrestler than Adams was!

• the Maestro was a short lived character whose gimmick was that he was a classical pianist who performed his own entrance music. I guess he was like a WCW precursor to Fandango in many ways, and it was one of those gimmicks that is different enough to have a modicum of success but would never last long; sadly again the wrestler behind the gimmick sucked. Although it did allow the former Ryan Shamrock (stunning lady, terrible WWE name) to get back on tv.

• Judy Bagwell was Buff's MOTHER. At one point, Rick Steiner hand-picked her to be co-tag team champion with him. Utter sh*te

• Regarding the Sting v Vampiro matches, It just felt that both were stuck in rut, going through the motions during this feud. The human torch match was a terrible idea (not a fan of WWE's inferno matches either) and I think I'm right in saying the ending involved a stuntman; the buried alive match if I recall was terribly lit (on a 'graveyard' set) which made it difficult to follow the action.

private stash. van hammer's lame name.

and re: sid, he failed before in every major let's push him and get this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGF4C_GjQY

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I disagree with the Steiner bashing. When Scott Steiner first turned on Rick I thought he was just another rehash of the Hollywood gimmick. However, Steiner had huge roided physique, he cut great heel promos, and had a good move set from his amateur wrestling days. I easily see Steiner as the top heel in the company.

Unfortunately, the WCW put more eggs into the Jarrett basket then they should have. He was not the talent and the heel of the company that everyone wanted. Furthermore, when Jarrett came over he had just lost the Intercontinental title and was instantly put in the main event spotlight at WCW. That makes his push too much too soon. I'm not saying Jarrett didn't have the talent to be in the main event scene, but his push was too fast.

Hogan, Sting, and Flair should have been putting legit talent over at that time, not working angles with Vampiro and Kidman.

I could have seen some kind of faction with Flair, Steiner, and Jarrett working as the top heel group.

Sid Vicious has never been marketable. He is a big guy, but lackluster in the ring and on the microphone. He doesn't have a great gimmick and has never deserved to the forefront of the company the way he has on numerous occasions.

I think the WCW could have easily replicated what I would have considered the Ruthless Aggression, TV-14 era later on in the WWE. Unfortunately they tried to replicate the Attitude era, and spent too much time on lengthy promos, worked shoots, and gimmick matches.

Agreed with the view that Steiner SHOULD have been the top heel/champion by 1999/2000 in contrast to babyfaces such as DDP and Booker T. Jeff Jarrett never was and never will be a main-event level talent, even without championships on the line, he's not even a main feud level talent, except for the history says that he was a top guy in TNA and did have "main feuds" , as with Kurt Angle. I've always believed him to be somewhat of a Carlito of the 1990s. IC champ, yeah. World champ? No thank you. Unfortunately, WCW made wrong choices, this being one of the supreme ones.

Also, if they did have an urge to put the World title on him, it should have only been once, and not so soon. Besides, I've never understood the whole cardboard guitar bashing into the head resulting in pinfall. An actual acoustic guitar would never break apart no matter how forcefully you hit a skull. Contrast that with heels like HHH using a STEEL CHAIR on Austin/Foley to get the pinfall. The extent of JJ's(the gimmick and largely, the man) lameness is heinous and inexplicable.
Yesterday, I was watching Christian's first TNA/NWA title victory over Jarrett , and the final part of the match was so fucking lame (Guitar, gail kim interference, referee knocked down multiple times).

Sid Vicious, yeah. Never deserved what he got. Once again, Snitsky/Heidenreich of the 90s.

If only WCW had steadied themselves during their staggering time, perhaps utilized just THREE good ideas, 1)Steiner as the dominant heel champion, 2)A limited membership veterans' stable, Flair, Sting, Luger, and 3)proper mid-carder transition into main-eventer and not random pushes such as Billy Kidman and Vampiro. I suppose that's what TNA are "trying" to do now with Lashley as champion.

 

[Vader]

I think Jarrett had the potential on the upper mid card. I liked Jarrett as a US Champion and Steiner or Hart holding the world title.

Steiner was the Hollywood gimmick on steroids, both literally and figuratively. He had a great move set, huge build, and cut great promos. I don't ever feel like Steiner will get his just dues given that he was at his peak athletically and as an entertainer during WCW's decline. Anything he did in TNA or WWA will go largely unnoticed, and his stint in the WWE failed.

Of course Steiner was pushed in the WCW, it just seemed like he was splitting roles with Jarrett.