How could WWE ruin Orton's Character?

[Ambiguous Turd]

How could WWE botch something this big? They had the biggest, most intriguing character they've had in years. YEARS. And they completely blew it. I shouldn't be surprised as WWE has blown so many things over the years. But this is absolutely mind-boggling how they could botch something that was red hot in this day and age (since so few things they do actually are anymore) and completely waste it.

The reason the angle was red hot, in my view, and drew so many people in was because people wanted to believe that Orton's character really was psychotic and had IED. They went with that for a few weeks after he punted Vince. Then, they turned his character into a pussy heel like Edge, which began to ruin everything they built. Then, they seemed to realize that they are ruining his character, and therefore to try to make a recovery with his gimmick, do the red hot segment between him, Triple H, and Stephanie with him DDT'ing Stephanie and kissing her in front of her husband. Finally, they completely ruin it the following week, where Orton basically admitted he didn't have IED and knew what he was doing all along. What the Hell was WWE thinking? They just essentially took ALL of the intrigue and heat out of Orton's character with this admission.

I am just curious how everyone else feels on this issue, as I haven't seen nearly the outrage on this that I thought I would online. It could be that maybe people are used to WWE botching this stuff on a regular basis, and therefore are just keeping their frustration to themselves. Or maybe, people think what WWE did with Orton was right, in making him just like an everyday, run-of-the-mill heel. I don't know. I just wanted to solicit some feedback on this.

Now, there are going to be those defenders of what WWE did, who come on here and say that "Orton is still in the title picture" and all that nonsense. Which is true. But that doesn't take away from the fact that WWE actually had an original, red hot character (key word CHARACTER), which was something they haven't had in years, that the audience was majorly into. And they completely took away everything about him that the crowd found intriguing.

The funny thing was that I was on the "blame Stephanie" Bandwagon for a long time. Yet, after hearing about Vince's behavior leading up to Mania, and his dominance over the Creative Team, I actually put the blame of all of Creative's problems on Vince McMahon himself, and I will continue to do so until he removes himself from the Creative process and allows Stephanie to be 100% accountable for Creative on her own.

I truly think Vince is the one who is causing all of Creative's problems over the years, and that Stephanie is more so just a figurehead with the title of being "EVP of Creative", with Vince being the real one in charge of Creative. It's obvious since it his company, that he will be involved to an extent, but I think he is waaaay too involved for a Chairman of the Board in this aspect of the company, and feel he should let his workers do their thing, while holding them accountable.

What are everyone's thoughts on what WWE did with Orton, and to a second extent, what are your thoughts on who is the primary person responsible for Creative's problems over the years?

 

[rko57]

I agree 100%

When Orton punted Vince in the head and then won the Royal Rumble, I was stoked. Just in the Royal Rumble PPV itself, when they Orton arive, the way the superstars looked at him, I was just thinking "this it it, here is Orton's time to shine and officially become one of the biggest superstars in the business"

Then, they slowly but surely killed Orton's momentum just like that. And espicially at WM25, it almost seemed like creative didnt know how to book the match. This match was supposed to be a match where Orton and HHH would wanna tear eachother limb by limb. But we didnt get that.

WWE screwed this one. Even if Orton wins at Backlash, it'll be nothing compared to what shoulda happened at WM25.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I still don't know why in the hell the match at WM 25 wasn't a No DQ match. When Orton said HHH would lose the title if he got DQ'ed during his promo before WM25, my high hopes for that match went way down. Everyone wanted to see these two just beat the hell out of each other, so why not have a no DQ match? I don't think creative is putting him on the path to being a heel like Edge, but you never know. I thought it was lock Orton would win at Mania. He punted Vince, won the Royal Rumble, punted Shane, gave Stephanie an RKO and DDT, and all of that momentum building just to lose at WM 25? I think he's going to win the WWE championship tommorow, but the real payoff would've been winning at Wrestlemania.

 

[GSM]

I couldn´t agree any more

Not only is the credibility of Randy Orton down the toilet but so is the whole plot of this storyline and I personally don´t care about who´s responsible for it, if it´s Vine , Stephanie or Oprah it doesn´t matter.
What matters is that the moment Orton admitted that he didn´t have the IED to begin with the whole sense of the storyline was destroyed.
Why did he kick Vince ? Why did he beat the crap out of Shane ? Why did he kiss Stephanie it all doesn´t make sense when he´s supposed to be one of those average Joe the plumber Heels who´s only goal is to get the title -.-
It appears that the WWE just can´t decide which direction the storyline should take.

 

[rnzrkorip]

i 100% agree with everything you guys have said. i spend $60 on a ppv where i only like to recollect one match. and it certainly isn't the orton vs. hhh match. as soon as hhh beat orton, i instantly became pissed. what was the point of orton doing everything he did before just to lose at mania? i don't give a shit if orton wins at backlash. at this point, it doesn't mean a god damn thing other than what vince told orton. without rhodes and dibiase, orton is a failure. i say that's bullshit! you're the one fucking things up vinnie mac. i don't think randy kicked you hard enough.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

i 100% agree with everything you guys have said. i spend $60 on a ppv where i only like to recollect one match. and it certainly isn't the orton vs. hhh match. as soon as hhh beat orton, i instantly became pissed. what was the point of orton doing everything he did before just to lose at mania? i don't give a shit if orton wins at backlash. at this point, it doesn't mean a god damn thing other than what vince told orton. without rhodes and dibiase, orton is a failure. i say that's bullshit! you're the one fucking things up vinnie mac. i don't think randy kicked you hard enough.

It's not so much, believe it or not, that I have a problem with Orton losing at Mania. The MAJOR problem I have with them is that they KILLED his character, the moment they had him admit on TV that he didn't have IED. That was what killed everything about Orton, as opposed to his loss at Mania.

If he still would have "had IED" going into Mania, but would have lost the match, I would have found that to be more acceptable, because at least the intriguing CHARACTER was still there. Now, they took away EVERYTHING that was exciting about his character, by turning him into another run of the mill heel. I still feel he should have won the match at Mania, but I would have tolerated it more, had they not killed his character by killing all of his heat PRIOR to Mania, by altering the IED character. Idiots.

I honestly don't know if they thought it would "add heat" to his character by admitting that he didn't have IED and was essentially "in control of his actions since Day 1", but it had the exact opposite effect in my view, because all of the intrigue vanished when they changed his character's direction.

The wrong people are in charge of Creative, evidently. I just don't think Vince has a grasp of what is "good" anymore. Not only does he not put out quality tv on a regular basis anymore through the lack of any intriguing storylines ... when he does have a good idea, he just completely Fucks it up.

Vince McMahon simply needs to set his ego off to the side, and eliminate his day-to-day involvement in the Creative process, for the good of his own company, and simply focus on his duties as Chairman of the Board and running the company. I know it's hard for him and those that want to believe in Vince to admit when it's time for someone of his stature to alter his involvement in day to day affairs, but people simply age. It's simply clear that bottom line, the man just doesn't have it anymore and his judgment on several Creative matters over the years has been piss poor. That has never been more evident leading up to Mania.

 

[Coco]

I agree. But I don't think it's as much that he said he didn't have IED as it is (as you also said) to a much larger degree that from that moment on he went on to become Triple H's bitch and a pussy-heel. Absolutely the wrong move. I despise Orton thoroughly, but why was he not consistently vicious like he was when he was faking IED? He didn't even have to win at Mania, even if that would have been my move. But why is he running from fights now? He should still be vicious. Why did that have to change just because he was faking? Bad move from the E.

Although WWE has never been a truely heel-oriented company, especially these days, so I shouldn't be shocked that they don't know how to book one right.

 

[bilbo411]

I think you are all being a bit too premature in your analysis of Orton's character. In case you haven't noticed, the feud is still going on. We have no idea where the whole thing with Batista is going.. give it time to pan out and see where it goes from here.

You cannot claim that Orton's character is "dead" without seeing this program fully pan out.

And yeah, HHH winning the way he did at Wrestlemania certainly did nothing for Orton's character, but hopefully WWE creative is planning something bigger out of it for Backlash, or sometime in the weeks following.

In other words, just be PATIENT!

 

[bxbigshow]

IF I were writing it, I would've built up some seperate 'tension' on the side with Legacy. Have Rhodes/DiBiase question their leader a bit. Then at 'Mania they attack Randy causing Trips the DQ and Title. Only to reveal it all as a ruse to get the belt from HHH.

Trips wouldn't have to lose cleanly like EVERYONE wants.
He still drops the belt.
And Randy comes off as smarter than everyone thinks by conning the belt off HHH.

Separately why hasn't a heel faction ever done that in a DQ/lose belt situation? Attack their own guy?

 

[The Decrypter]

@ Lord Sidious

Actually, I think when he made 1st mention of his IED situation is when the momentum started to boggle down. Even when he brought in lawyers and all that. However, on the following RAWs, it didn't seem so bad, and the IED seemed to be working fine, storyline wise. You know, showed he was crazy and held too much heat to consciously make wise decisions. Then, he says he doesn't have IED. The constant switch-ups is what was killing the momentum. However, it wasn't so bad, as WM25 was coming, and everybody wanted Orton to kill HHH. However, being the big baby that HHH is of not wanting to have a clean loss, he won at WM25, and although Orton might win at Backlash, I 99.9% believe its going to be because of some fluke caused by Shane or Batista not being able to work together, resulting in a win for Orton that still doesn't give fans that, "OMG, Orton DESTROYED HHH" feeling.

-_-;

 

[Greenlight13]

Vince, Shane and Triple H kicking the Legacy's asses was the moment for me. I actually hated the IED storyline because I'm not an idiot and I know a fake disease when I hear one. If he genuinely had something like that he wouldn't be allowed to take part in combat sports, fake or otherwise, so it's an insult to my intelligence to say he has it.

I liked that he linked it all back to when Triple H betrayed him, it makes you think "god, how twisted are you?" I loved when he slapped and kicked Vince and then won the Rumble, securing his job. I wasn't big on Shane putting up anything resembling a fight against him, I loved when he RKO'd and DDT'd Stephanie. When he kissed her that's when it got really big.

The entire point of the Mania stip was that he was systematically tearing Triple H's life apart so that the first time he put his hands on him he'd be in danger of losing it. But then they let Triple H and Orton lock up on the final Raw and Triple H was allowed to punch his head in to his heart's content. What made it even worse was that Raw went off-air DURING the assault! What the hell? The first time Triple H and Orton touched since Orton began his reign or terror and you don't show what came of it? How do the tv audience know Triple H didn't put him in a coma? Meanwhile in the background his elite group were jobbed out to men with a combined age of over 100 so his back-up melted away.

This seemed like something that could have happened the next night when Orton was celebrating his title win to set up the Backlash revenge, for me it killed the heat that Orton had spent 3 months building. Then they put in a terrible ending that would have worked better if Triple H was taking the belt FROM Orton and now he's left with very little. If he wins at Backlash it won't save it.

 

[MrMcCool]

I don't agree with everyone, but parts.

I think it helped when Orton admitted he didn't have IED, because nobody really should believe he did, and it looks like he was sick enough to punt Vince and everyone on his own. Not that he was crazy because of a disease, but because he dont care about ANYONE but himself, makes him look better. The stuff with cuffing HHH and kissing Steph, was priceless!!! Orton NEEDED that win at Mania to prove he was legit. Now he will win at Backlash to save HHH being pinned, good for HHH, jackass. Batista is irrelevant in this feud, and shouldn't even be involved. Now Orton can win the belt at Backlash, HHH won't look weak so he can say Orton never beat him, and Orton doesn't get the legit rub he NEEDED at Mania.

Bottom line: What ruined Orton's momentum and character was Creative, but because of Vince, because of HHH's ego!!

 

[Coco]

I actually hated the IED storyline because I'm not an idiot and I know a fake disease when I hear one. If he genuinely had something like that he wouldn't be allowed to take part in combat sports, fake or otherwise, so it's an insult to my intelligence to say he has it.

That sounds like a massive discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen. They could have run with Orton actually having IED and make it believable. Those lawyers must have been doing something for Orton to retain their services.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Wow. really wow. first of all the ied thing was so stupid. it was better when just said he was going after hunter where it hurts, for revenge in the past. what determines whether or not a character is hot? seriously guys, the internet world is like 5% of the fan base. the average fan finds orton blame and hate him. i know my family puts the blame on orton and cena as to why they quit watching. you know why randys being booked as a run of the mill heel? maybe because he is a run of the mill talent! but on the other hand, you smarks know everything. on the other topic, how many of you people have been to a creative meeting? hmm? i'll wait. thought so. now vince should be to blame for letting the bullshit by, but none of you knows who comes up with what.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I don't agree with everyone, but parts.

I think it helped when Orton admitted he didn't have IED, because nobody really should believe he did, and it looks like he was sick enough to punt Vince and everyone on his own. Not that he was crazy because of a disease, but because he dont care about ANYONE but himself, makes him look better. The stuff with cuffing HHH and kissing Steph, was priceless!!! Orton NEEDED that win at Mania to prove he was legit. Now he will win at Backlash to save HHH being pinned, good for HHH, jackass. Batista is irrelevant in this feud, and shouldn't even be involved. Now Orton can win the belt at Backlash, HHH won't look weak so he can say Orton never beat him, and Orton doesn't get the legit rub he NEEDED at Mania.

Bottom line: What ruined Orton's momentum and character was Creative, but because of Vince, because of HHH's ego!!

Yeah, Orton looked real "normal" and completely "sane" in that segment with Triple H and Stephanie.

It wasn't the loss at Mania alone. It was the fact they killed all of the intrigue with his character by removing the IED element. WWE had the opportunity to go with an original gimmick. Never before in history had they played up a Heel with a disorder as well as they did with Orton. Why turn him into a run-of-the-mill Heel? It's boring. Psychotic gimmicks, to the extent Orton was doing, was far more unpredictable and intriguing than a normal, typical Face/Heel feud.

Wow. really wow. first of all the ied thing was so stupid. it was better when just said he was going after hunter where it hurts, for revenge in the past. what determines whether or not a character is hot? seriously guys, the internet world is like 5% of the fan base. the average fan finds orton blame and hate him. i know my family puts the blame on orton and cena as to why they quit watching. you know why randys being booked as a run of the mill heel? maybe because he is a run of the mill talent! but on the other hand, you smarks know everything. on the other topic, how many of you people have been to a creative meeting? hmm? i'll wait. thought so. now vince should be to blame for letting the bullshit by, but none of you knows who comes up with what.

Again, psychotic Randy Orton was the absolute best part of the entire program. It's more intriguing seeing someone with mental problems attack another man's wife, as opposed to your average joe in your average feud with another wrestler.

And from the reviews I saw, everyone was raving about Orton's performance as a psycho. Far more convincing than any other person with "mental problems" in WWE history (like Sid, Mr. Backlund, and even most recently, Edge).

I find myself at odds with many fans in the IWC who like today's wrestling, but this is one case where the Internet is primarily on target with what killed the character. Taking the psychotic nature away from Orton's character and him losing at Mania. But primarily it was turning Orton into a normal heel that did it.

As far as your claim that Orton is just "another run of the mill heel", I can tell you that I found his psycho gimmick far more intriguing and entertaining as compared to what I've seen out of Heel Jericho week in and week out, with calling everyone parasites and hypocrites every single week, and coming out in a suit. That's real original and captivating television (yawn).

And by the way, if I was actually in one of their Creative meetings, I would probably be pulling my hair out with the frustration in dealing with Vince. Sounds like his entire Creative team was fed up with his antics leading up to Mania, including his own daughter. Time for Vince to get off the Creative team's back and turn the reigns completely over to his daughter, or anyone else who is competent enough to write quality TV with intriguing storylines. I have never in my life seen so many Fuckups in WWE since the time of the Invasion Angle.

 

[SquareSix]

For bilbo411 -

Yes, we should give the storyline time to pan out, because who would've dreamed they would've changed the story this much when it first began.


"I have IED, I want to destroy HHH and the McMahon family, I'm creating a powerful stable, etc."

*Proceed to now*:

"I don't have IED, I'm a pussy who is afraid of HHH, I have zero credibility, my stable is made of jobbers, our match at Mania bombed"

Alright, so about 90% of that was sarcasim, but some of it is true. When this whole angle started, like many, I actually seen potential for Orton to become a HUGE heel. Not just a heel even - but a full blown "real" heel. He was, at least to begin with, a heel that wanted more than just the WWE title. Sure, they still mention at random moments on commentary that Orton has been waiting for years, blah blah blah, but it isn't the same as what it could have potentially been had they not "taken away" his IED. Now, it just seems to be a big mash up of ideas. It's almost as though they have these ideas that they like so they're just trying to make them all work together even if they aren't necessarily supposed to. Does anyone else get the feeling that with adding Batista to this situation it is like creative is wanting to kill two birds with one stone? Instead of having the HHH/Orton feud, then the all too expected Orton/Batista feud, that they are just having both at the same time in a way. I'm fairly sure that isn't what the end result will be, but for now it has that feeling to me.

The way that myself and many others seen this whole thing to begin with given the heat Orton was drawing, the way he was giving his promos, the way people were tuning in to see something unexpected week to week involving Orton, it all had such great potential. Now, it has become just a normal heel/face storyline seen time and time before. Orton's character has gone from this unpredictable guy hell bent on doing whatever he pleases to just one of the same heels that have become so boring. This story has taken many turns, so who knows, there is still a chance that WWE can pull it off somehow. Given the huge drop in momentum going into, during, and after WM 25, I can't see it unless something major was to occur, but then again, I'm not a writer for WWE.

 

[ratedRKO17]

now orton is my favorite number 1 wrestler 2 me
orton is the best and yes when he did kick vince in the head..i was lik whoa!!! wwe made a icon and then he kept going with it and wwe made him look lik he was...FREAKING CRAZY..then when he said tht he dident have i.e.d igot piss ed cuz lik wth..this is 1 of the best..if not the best heel tht wwe has EVER! had..he needs MUST win a backlash 2marrow night..if he does not..then every thing they did will go 2 waste..and it will juss be 4 nothing..

 

[twisterwrw929]

I really think Orton is better off without the IED disorder. Because when he came out on tv that one night and said that's what he had, I thought that moment could ruin his character.

The "IED" made him do things he couldn't control. When he kicked Vince in the head, if he had said "IED" it wasn't because he wanted to but because he couldn't control it. I think it's so much better for him to be able to say, I knew exactly what I was doing and I would do it again if I could. Having him know exactly what's going on, makes him like he doesn't have a soul or that he's a cold person or heartless.

I'm a huge Orton fan, and when he lost at Wrestlemania, I was pretty upset with it. Because he was so hot going into Mania that it seemed foolish for him not to win. But without a McMahon turn I think it almost would have ruined the storyline. Just think about the weeks leading up to WM, Orton and Triple H went back in forth but I don't think anyone could say that Triple H had gotten the best of Orton. Orton beat the hell out of his in-laws, then his wife, and proceeded to kiss his wife in front of him. Orton was dominating that storyline, and for him to go into Wrestlemania and beat Triple H, would have made Triple H look like a complete bitch. I think Triple H needed to win, but in the end of the rivalry, Orton should be the man with the belt.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I really think Orton is better off without the IED disorder. Because when he came out on tv that one night and said that's what he had, I thought that moment could ruin his character.

The "IED" made him do things he couldn't control. When he kicked Vince in the head, if he had said "IED" it wasn't because he wanted to but because he couldn't control it. I think it's so much better for him to be able to say, I knew exactly what I was doing and I would do it again if I could. Having him know exactly what's going on, makes him like he doesn't have a soul or that he's a cold person or heartless.

I'm a huge Orton fan, and when he lost at Wrestlemania, I was pretty upset with it. Because he was so hot going into Mania that it seemed foolish for him not to win. But without a McMahon turn I think it almost would have ruined the storyline. Just think about the weeks leading up to WM, Orton and Triple H went back in forth but I don't think anyone could say that Triple H had gotten the b

 

[MrMcCool]

A couple of things:

I agree, Orton as a psycho is very good, however, people are smart now, and nobody believes he had IED, Im glad they didnt treat us like we are stupid, and admitted he didnt, instead of saying he did. Now, A psyschotic heel to the extent Orton was isnt run of the mill, its over the top, you are right. the thing is, I believe someone being that psychotic on his own, knwoing how psychotic hes being, is more disturbing than someone doing it against their will.

IED sounds like if he could control it, he wouldnt be doing it, we wont him to control it, we want him to be psychotic just because it excites him.

Good point, in the segment with HHH and Steph he was nowhere near normal, not even close, and didnt he already say he didnt have IED? YES! So he was that psychotic for the fun of it, because he was being smart and tactical.

Think about it!!

What better way to get Orton over than to have him win at Wrestlemania and prevent HHH from defending the honor of his family and wife. HHH wants to lose the belt to Orton without getting pinned!!

NATEDAMAC88 has it exactly right! There is nothing more heartless and souless than a man hurting another mans family because he enjoys it!!

 

[Meilichia]

You know what really ruined Orton? Pretty much everything about this storyline. I know a lot of people strongly believe Orton's character was a breath of fresh air, that the whole IED thing was a brilliant idea, etc, etc... but it wasn't.

I suppose its mainly the creative's input on this, but this idea of a heel doesn't appeal to me what so ever. His character has jumped from one thing to another, it has moments of brilliance, like the segment were they handcuffed Triple H to the rope etc, but besides the few moments, his character is weak. Heel's automatically need a slower pace in the ring, using slow wrestling moves, like the headlock, which allows for heat, and it gets the fans behind the face, however Orton took this too far, his pace of speech and walking is ridiculous. The whole IED and hiding behind lawyers might have been entertaining, but it discredited his character, and as soon as he dropped the whole thing, it just came across as a cowardly act, which once again demonstrated his character wasn't credible, at that point he totally lost his sinister side. I suppose that is strongly due to the stupid creative teams choices.

One aspect of his character works for him, and thats the violent and quite dark parts of his character, however for this to gain the heel status he needed, he should haven't started at the top. Taking on Triple H right away does not work. Orton had already been at the top for a while, but fans forget. Taking him and his little group down a step or two would have greatly improved his chances of success as a character. If he'd taken on a mid card face, and completely dominated that storyline, he'd have been able to take the step up to the title with some sort of back story. By placing him right up against Triple H will never work, as much as I am a fan of Triple H, he isn't going to come out of this storyline eventually as the loser. He will squash Orton eventually, and that will ensure that no one will remember this Orton heel attempt in years to come.

One last thing that stops this storyline working, and sees the matches completely flopping is his in ring ability. He is a decent wrestler, that is for sure, but he doesn't have that flare that allows him to shine. Many people will disagree with me, but there hasn't been too many Triple H flops at WM, and this match did, big time. I'm not saying it's all Orton's fault, perhaps it's because their wrestling styles clash, but Orton does need more flare in the ring, or maybe needs to master a stipulation match to get him to the top. At the moment there is far too many things in the way of Orton's character being anything more than mediocre.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Perhaps there is more of a divide than I originally thought amongst fans regarding their opinions on how they thought Orton's character should have been handled.

Seems pretty split actually from those that are participating in this actual discussion, from those that thought they should have continued the IED/psychotic route to those that don't think they should have ever gone that route to begin with. The one thing we do seem to agree on though, is that we all seemed to have hated their jumping back and forth from week to week ... one week he has the disorder, the next week he doesn't, then the next week he has it again and goes nuts, then the next week he doesn't and said he made it all up. I think all sides agreed that this was handled horrendously and killed him even prior to going into Mania. They killed all appeal whatsoever with this unique character prior to even having the match at Mania.

I would like to hear from those that think that the IED/psychotic angle is not as appealing as another typical Face vs Heel feud. It is not often you see psychotic characters come across very often, and Orton played one absolutely magnificently, with the epitome being the segment with DDT'ing and kissing Stephanie. His facial reactions were off the chart.

Do you not think that you can get more interesting and intriguing television out of a psychotic character due to the unpredictability element and uniqueness factor, as compared to yet another run-of-the-mill Face vs Heel feud?

I just find a lot of the tastes of many modern day fans to be, for lack of better words, quite dull and rather bland. No offense, as I realize it is merely a preference thing in how you like your storylines. But I just don't understand how people can't get sick and tired of seeing the same boring, average, run-of-the-mill typical Face vs Heel feuds constantly, without doing something to make the feud intriguing, such as in this case, involving a character with psychotic tendencies, who can't control his emotions and actions.