Honduran coup d'état

Harthan

Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus
So, you've probably heard a lot about Honduras on the news lately. Since June 26, the country has been in a political upheaval regarding the ousting of the President, Manuel Zalaya, by the military and Congress's institution of an interim President, Roberto Micheletti. Here's the full story.

Zalaya, formerly a wealthy businessman, was elected in 2005 from the Liberal Party, and has been a staunch defended of labor unions and the lower class, which has earned him, obviously, huge support from that class and some ire from the middle and upper classes. Some have gone as far as to accuse him of being a borderline socialist, and more or less Honduras's version of Chavez. Zalaya's extreme leftism and tight relationship with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has alienated him from his own party and pretty much driven away the majority of his governmental support, and a vast majority of the people (he was running about a 25% approval rating before the coup). Another major facet of Zalaya's administration was an adverse relationship with the media, again, similar to Chavez. There have been accusations of "subtle censorship" by the OAS (Organization of American States) by way of the government financially supporting government supportive media outlets. As I mentioned before, labor unions and the lower class are big on Zalaya, while the middle and upper class are not. Zalaya, therefore, wasn't terribly popular: The Economist reported that "Mr Zelaya’s presidency has been marked by a rise in crime, corruption scandals and economic populism." All in all, a good majority of the population agreed that prior to the coup, Zalaya was not a particularly good or popular President.

The roots of all this go back to November, when Zalaya intended to introduce a fourth ballot in the general elections of November 2009. The typical three ballots are for the Presidential, congressional, and local elections. The fourth was intended to be a referendum to ask the citizens of Honduras if they wanted to hold a National Constituent Assembly to draft a new constitution. The reasons for this differ from who you listen to. Anti Zalaya thought is that he wanted to eliminate term limits, hence allowing him to serve a second term as President (currently, Presidents are only allowed to serve one term in Honduras). However, considering Zalaya's popularity, one has to wonder how that could have been his motive. He couldn't really have thought he'd be reelected, would he? And that's exactly what he said, that he wouldn't be elected anyway, and instead wanted to give the people of Honduras a chance to revise the Constitution in a way that supported modern times and thought.

Well, Zalaya wanted to hold a poll to the general public to see about including the ballot in the November election, which Congress rejected, saying that it could lead to changing of certain "entrenched" parts of the Constitution, and further saying that the Constitution can only legally be changed by a 2/3 vote of Congress. Hence, they declared any such referendum illegal, and any poll about it was therefore illegal as well. They also referenced Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution, enacted to prevent "continuismo", which is an executive head of state serving "continuously", i.e., without term limits. This is a big deal in Latin America, because of their history of dictators. This is what Congress said was Zalaya's motives for the referendum, and thus struck it down as unconstitutional.

So, obviously, this strained Zalaya/Congress relations hugely and led to Congress trying to figure out how to remove Zalaya from office. Zalaya basically told Congress to fuck off and went to the military, who is in charge of security and logistics, and asked for them to help him hold the poll anyway. The head of the military, General Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, said no, on the grounds that the Supreme Court had declared the poll illegal and unconstitutional. Zalaya then removed him from office, but the Supreme Court reinstated him soon after. Zalaya staged a citizen protest to get the materials, but failed.

So, with all this, the Honduran Attorney General issued an order for Zalaya's arrest on June 25, and on the 26, the Supreme Court issued an order for capture of Zalaya on the grounds of “acting against the government, treason, abuse of authority, and usurpation of power”. On June 28, soldiers stormed the Presidential palace and captured Zalaya, then putting him on a plane to Costa Rica. The military said that it was fast, clean, and respectful, while Zalaya claimed it was forceful and somewhat violent, saying his guards were assaulted and calling the incident a coup and a kidnapping. There was basically martial law for a day and the news media was shut down. The Supreme Court announced that it had ordered the military to remove Zalaya from office, and the military reported that they had removed Zalaya from the country to prevent bloodshed.

Congress later officially removed Zalaya from office and appointed Roberto Micheletti, President of the National Congress, as Acting President. Micheletti immediately smacked down a curfew and suspended several constitutional rights. This was followed by heavy protesting (mostly nonviolent or else with little violence - to my knowledge, only one man has been killed so far and there's a few injuries). The protesting has been both for and against Zalaya, but due to the nigh elimination of all pro Zalaya media, only the anti Zalayans are getting real coverage within Honduras.

The coup has been almost universally denounced by major world organizations and world nations. No one has recognized the acting Honduran government, and they've been suspended from the OAS. The world is unanimously calling for the reinstatement of Zalaya (whose popularity has skyrocketed since being ousted). Zalaya has tried to return to the country, but has failed. The Honduran government says they are absolutely in the right and will not budge, while the world demands the reinstatement of Zalaya. Zalaya says he wants to return peacefully and will forgive those who opposed him. As it stands right now, it's pretty much a stalemate - just today impartial mediation was accepted by Zalaya, and that might lead somewhere. The media is still shut down and certain rights are still suspended.

So what's the real story? There's a couple theories. One, which isn't popular worldwide, obviously, is that Zalaya really was a treasonous bastard who wanted to extend his term as President. I doubt it - there's no way he'd have been reelected. Another theory is that Zalaya is the people's champion and was trying to give them a fair shake at making a better constitution - this seems to be the popular worldwide theory. Álvaro Vargas Llosa, who's somewhat of an expert on this type of thing, I'm told, has suggested this was all an elaborate plan by Hugo Chavez and Zalaya to remold themselves from near socialists into democratic champions, and it's working. Tons of Hondurans love Zalaya now, and Chavez is his staunchest supporter, thus he looks great out of it as well. I'm a fan of this theory, personally - Zalaya was never a particularly good guy to the general public (to the poor, yes, but to the middle class, no), nor was he popular enough to get a second term. The idea of turning himself into a democratic champion must have appealed to him, and Chavez is a pretty intelligent fellow, so I can see how they might have laid down this plan. Of course, there's also accusations of CIA Involvement (when isn't there) because the top army officials in Honduras are US trained. I can see how it might benefit the US - having Zalaya ousted then leading the efforts to reinstate him would create an ally in Central and South America, as well as a closer connection to Chavez, who we have an interest in keeping an eye (since he controls a huge part of the foreign oil we receive).

So what do you think? Zalaya - power hungry maniac? Champion of the common man? Nefarious plotter? CIA dummy? Something else entirely? What do you think of the Honduran coup?
 
^^ Reading all of this hurt my eyes. I'll just reply, going off what I've heard on the news, and heard through discussion.

Political overthrows are never good. Even if it's for the right reasons, the outcome always ends up uglier than the start, and civil war is bound to happen. While I haven't heard it get that far, yet, we all know the history in that part of the world, and how bad things can get (think back to Nicaragua). I saw on CNN (?) that we have a fairly large trade going with Honduras, and it will obviously be affected immensely if they reach civil unrest. We don't have the means to send support of any kind, and hopefully will stay out of it until it's too big for us to not step in. This is something the UN should handle, but probably won't, because they've turned into a bunch of *****es since the shit in Somalia.

If I get some time to re-read that post in full, or hear anything new about it on TV, I'll make sure to come back and post again :)
 
I have to go with the consensus that this was a move by a power hungry Congress that didn't like the way Zalaya was giving power to the people, you know, a democracy. Now I"m not so sure on the unlimited term business, I'm thinking maybe he wanted to remove a limit on how many terms a president can serve if there was such a clause. I've been keeping up on this story as well, and obviously trying to read through the media bias and what not, I've come to the conclusion that this coup was ridiculous and not needed.

This being said, this turned out great for the US. Not only does it give us something to stand next to Chavez with and fight for the same cause, thus healing tension and wounds between Venezuela and the US, but it also allows us to get in good with the rest of the leftist Central American countries and heal old wounds with them as well. By doing so, I believe the hope is that we can create a more united relationship across the Americas. This would be huge for all involved, to be united for several different causes. Overall I'd say I'm liking the way we are trying to warm relations with countries we were generally cold with over the past 8 years or so.

Meanwhile, for the near future, I don't see Zalay returning unless the people completely turn against the power hungry Congress in Honduras, and strikes are formed in his favor. Congress basically took a huge gamble by going through with this, because it could end up turning completely against them, and/or throwing the entire country into more chaos. Honduras isn't exactly a wealthy nation by any means, and they rely on a lot of support from us and other countries around them. They are taking the chance of cutting off those support lines, which I hope we do not there is nothing worse then making people suffer more than they already are, and turning Honduras into a standalone country. Iran may be able to because they are oil rich, Honduras can't afford that luxury.

If the Honduras Congress would give in, I believe a stronger bond would be built and the impoverished nation would hopefully be able to rebound and become a more powerful voice and nation in world affairs.

Yeah that's the optimist look on things, in reality I'm guessing the protests and possibly violence will continue to spike until the big nations need to step in to fix it all.
 
I agree with what Burna said on this one. Before I get too into it, I only know what is in Harthan's post about this conflict. A majority of Central and South American countries have grudges against the U.S. from the 50s during the Red Scare and Communism and all that. The fact that these countries went with leftist govenments has been a sore point for decades. This is finally a chance for the United States to get a democratic govenment in place, and be supported by the countries that have been wary of us for decades.

This is a textbook case of the few with power not wanting it to be given to the masses, which is the case in most of Central America. When I went to Guatemala in March, you could definitely tell which lands and/or buildings were owned by the govenment or corporations and which ones weren't. I hope that this conflict ends peacefully, and with the nation of Honduras in a better situation than it began it in.
 
Political overthrows are never good. Even if it's for the right reasons, the outcome always ends up uglier than the start, and civil war is bound to happen.

Ya know I love you NSL, but that's just a ridiculious statement, and I'd have to suggest you look it over again and realize the error in it.

Without political overthrows, the United States would not exist. Political overthrows can very much be a good thing, depending on the reasons. Military over throws (juntas) on the other hand are always a negative thing, because they almost always lead to a fascist dictatorship.

There aren't many cases of a congress working in unison with the military to remove a head of office though, so there's really no way to predict where the new Honduran government is going. The fact that they've apparently suspended several constitutional rights already is a big red flag that the country could be on it's way to a much more militaristic country.

But political overthrows can be a great thing sometimes NSL, just depends on the circumstances. Some revolutions ARE worth the blood they spill.

To be honest my expectations at this point is that Honduras will continue to spiral to a more fascistic government, and the world will stand by and do nothing. The United States or NATO in general don't have much at stake in the country, and thus will do nothing but denounce the new regime in speeches. All talk, no action.

To be honest though, I hold a non-interventionist attitude when it comes to the overwhelming majority of foriegn affairs. If it isn't directly effecting us, than I don't think we have any place to insert our will or force. The events that have transpired thus far is hardly justification to start a war over.

Quite frankly I think this whole situation reeks of CIA involvement. The CIA has been responsible for several major South American coups over the last century, I wouldn't put it past them here.
 
majority of Central and South American countries have grudges against the U.S. from the 50s during the Red Scare and Communism and all that.

Well that and the whole history of imperialism in Central & South America via the US.

he fact that these countries went with leftist govenments has been a sore point for decades. This is finally a chance for the United States to get a democratic govenment in place, and be supported by the countries that have been wary of us for decades.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that this new government will be more democratic. Thus far they've done the exact OPPOSITE of democracy, they've taken a head of state out of office (a head of state that was democratically elected) and began to crack down on dissent among the population and scale back constitutional rights. Nothing that leads me to believe they'll be heading anywhere towards a Democracy anytime soon.
 
Well, the people don't like that Zalaya was taken out of office, and he was about to try and make the government more democratic, from what's in Harthan's post. I'm not saying it'll be an all-out democratic republic like us, but if the coup can be removed then I can see a nice big opening there for at least some democratic policies to be put in place.
 
Well, the people don't like that Zalaya was taken out of office, and he was about to try and make the government more democratic, from what's in Harthan's post. I'm not saying it'll be an all-out democratic republic like us, but if the coup can be removed then I can see a nice big opening there for at least some democratic policies to be put in place.

no way in hell, Thiller. The Congress cracked down on them by putting curfews, and such. if they wanted a democratic approach to this all, wouldn't they keep Zalaya in office? Like X has said before me, it's all a matter of someone having power and keeping it. It sucks though, but it's the harsh reality of it all.
 
Well, the people don't like that Zalaya was taken out of office, and he was about to try and make the government more democratic, from what's in Harthan's post. I'm not saying it'll be an all-out democratic republic like us, but if the coup can be removed then I can see a nice big opening there for at least some democratic policies to be put in place.

But what do you mean by "if the coup can be removed"? The only way that's going to happen is either civil war/revolution among the people (which is extremely unlikely considering the protestors thus far have been mostly nonviolent) or from involvement from an outside force like the UN/NATO or the US. Like I said before, there's absolutely no reason for us to get involved in something like this which is not our business.

If we were infact to get involved (i.e. invade and/or send in a UN force) it would actually have the exact opposite effect on the US's respectability in the eyes of Central and South Americans. It would be seen as yet another example of American imperialism.
 
no way in hell, Thiller. The Congress cracked down on them by putting curfews, and such. if they wanted a democratic approach to this all, wouldn't they keep Zalaya in office? Like X has said before me, it's all a matter of someone having power and keeping it. It sucks though, but it's the harsh reality of it all.

I'm saying that democracy can happen after the coup is over. It seems clear to me that the congress had at least a little part in the overthrow of Zalaya, and they will be at the mercy of anyone who ends the coup. As it stands now there is no chance, but the potential ending of the conflict opens a lot of doors for democracy in the future.
 
Without political overthrows, the United States would not exist. Political overthrows can very much be a good thing, depending on the reasons. Military over throws (juntas) on the other hand are always a negative thing, because they almost always lead to a fascist dictatorship.

^^ This is basically what I meant. Like I said, I only know what I briefly heard on TV, and through whatever discussion I've heard about it. I don't know exactly what happened, or who the new government is, but juntas can never work out in a good way. Except for our's, and the French Revolution, I can't think of when it's been a good thing, offhand.

This is something that they need time to settle on their own, and then the UN should step in. It's not something we, as a country, need to be involved in right from the start.
 
I'm saying that democracy can happen after the coup is over. It seems clear to me that the congress had at least a little part in the overthrow of Zalaya, and they will be at the mercy of anyone who ends the coup. As it stands now there is no chance, but the potential ending of the conflict opens a lot of doors for democracy in the future.

The problem is, there's no way for the situation to resolve itself in any manner that leads to a positive outcome.

Let's assume the new government stays in power. Micheletti, or another Congress puppet, is put in place as President. The country becomes a military dictatorship, cut off from the rest of the world. They've suspended articles 69, 71, 78, and 81 of the constitution. Article 69 guarantees the right of personal freedom. Article 71 requires being brought before a judge within 24 hours of being arrested. Article 78 provides for the freedom to associate with others, and article 81 provides for freedom of movement and the right to remain in the country. So basically, this is a government that can arrest you for anything, detain you indefinitely, stop you from protesting, and deport you if they decide you're too much trouble. Inside a week they've become a military dictatorship, and they're not gonna stop.

If suspension from the OAS and cut off of US aid didn't get them to step down, what will? Let's face it, the only way to stop them is a full out armed assault, be it a foreign invasion or a civil war. The US won't go anywhere near it - after the 8 year debacle that is Iraq, the public won't get anywhere an invasion to displace a foreign government, and Obama would be insane to try it if he wants to be reelected. We still have Iraq to clean up and Afghanistan to finish anyway, the US can't get anywhere near Honduras militarily. We can cut off foreign aid, and we will, but outside of condemning them on the stand, that's where it ends. That, clearly, won't stop them. The UN won't do jack shit, they never do.

The only man who'll do anything about it is Chavez, and that won't improve matters either. Chavez can invade and crush Honduras if he wants to. Their standing army is about 10,000 men, I can't get any info on reserves. Venezuela keeps an active army of 100,000 with 600,000 in reserve. He'd lay waste to them and install Zalaya as President, and he'd do it without anyone questioning him because the world is on his side. It turns Chavez into a hero and Zalaya into his puppet, and makes them both heroes. Meanwhile, Zalaya will just continue his ultimately poor Presidency, turning Honduras into a nearly socialist state, and screwing over a majority of the population. There's a reason the guy had a 25 % approval rating. They'll greet him like a hero when he returns, sure, but he'll just do the same things he did before, and worse, giving the Hondurans an even worse deal in the end.

So what can happen? The active government stays in place as a military dictatorship, and screws over the Honduran people. Or Chavez puts Zalaya back in power, and it becomes a socialist state...again, screwing over the Honduran people. No matter who wins, Honduras still loses.
 

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