Here's a head scratcher....

[RobertTheBruce]

After watching The Very Best of WCW Nitro on the network, it got me thinking...

If Madusa had never appeared on Nitro with the WWF Womens Championship belt, would the Montreal Screwjob have happened?

Quite an underappreciated moment in history.

 

[Mac]

Yes. Because even if Madusa never dumps the women's belt Vince would've been fearful of Bret as their champion being announced on Nitro that he's coming to WCW.

 

[wrestler36]

I would say yes, because Ric Flair brought his title to WWF in 1991. Vince took advantage of that but I'm sure he thought at the time that he wouldn't want that to happen to him

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Flair's was different, as there was stupidity and obstinance on WCW's part. Their system was that the champ put a deposit bond of $25k on the belt which they didn't want to return...so Flair legally could keep the belt until they did.

Rather than Vince saying "I never want this to happen." would have been more about "This wouldn't happen here cos we're not that stupid..."

Then of course Madusa happened.

I think the moment Vince should have learned from and that informed the screwjob more was Lex Luger. Once he'd show up on Nitro, then the alarm bells should have been ringing that ANY talent out of contract could and probably would do the same thing. The issue is they cared so little about the Womens title they forgot about Madusa... when she shit canned the title however, they were "just as stupid" as WCW and Vince had to vow never to get caught like that again.

Had Madusa not shitcanned the belt, Montreal or a variation of still happens, cos Vince wouldn't risk a Luger situation with his champ or a Flair situation with his belt. Perhaps Vince is more open to the DQ/Stripping and to trusting Bret. No Madusa, I actually think Bret wouldn't have won the belt again once they knew he was off... they'd have done Taker/Shawn instead and given Bret a "nice send off" in a match with Austin or Rock.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Good discussion.

It was pretty rough in its execution, but set a dangerous precedent. To a lesser extent of Bret Hart we also saw Mike Awesome appear on Nitro whilst still being recognized as ECW champion, but Heyman was smart enough to put a clause in place ensuring the belt wouldn't receive the treatment the WWF womens title was shown. The Madusa moment I believe remains a very unappreciated moment in the Monday Night wars.

 

[No Count Pup]

The physical WWF Title belt was probably not the major consideration. After all, Bret Hart or Eric Bischoff could have procured a replica belt and claimed that Hart was still the WWF Champion. It didn't matter who held the original title.

WWF would have probably countered by bringing a WCW World Title replica belt on Raw. I can envision HHH of the DX days dressing like an old man and claiming only senior citizens can be WCW Champion.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Bret Hart had said in I think the Monday Night Wars, or another documentary, that he was already way over the dates in his WWF contract, come Survivor Series. He could have no-showed the event completely. I don't know the details of Bret's contract. Apparently he was still under contract well past Survivor Series, but he was already over the number of dates per year.

That's why Vince was apparently so scared he would no-show RAW the next night in all of Bret's proposals for an alternate finish. Seems kind of fishy that he wasn't worried about that Sunday though.

I think without Madusa having already happened, there wouldn't be so much concern about Bret. Tensions about him leaving with the belt could have been lower. They let Shawn hand over titles multiple times before this. They let Flair drop the title on a non-televised house show before this. There were multiple exist strategies other than the screwjob. But because of how intense the wars were at the time, and because Madusa DID happen, and Luger DID happen, it set a precedent and everything was magnified. They didn't want to extend the same options they had to others previously to Bret. Vince is the one who told Bret to go to WCW. He seemed dead set at that point on him laying down on his way out.

 

[Mac]

You'd think they would've learned their lesson from Madusa and Bret but Jarrett had the IC belt despite his contract being up too yet Vince didn't seem to be concerned about Jarrett dropping the IC belt in a trash can on Nitro. There is something more to the Montreal screwjob that we won't ever know.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I still think the Bret Hart thing was planned by Bret, Shawn and Vince it seems too conveniant to coincide with the start of the Mr Mcmahon character,
So what if Bret never properly lost the WWE seemed to gain more from that one angle and turn it into many storylines than any angle in wrestling history.
I wonder if Madusa regrets it now probably blew the chance of the hall of fame or any type of legends deal she no doubt would have gotten if it wasn't for the WCW incident as in my opinion she's one of the greatest talented female wrestlers and probably the best in her era.

 

[Goldie]

Yes it would have still happened.
The Womens title doesn't hold the prestige of the World title.... the world title is the emblem of the company. Embarrass that world title, it would hurt the WWE.

Bret wasn't legally obligated to work for WCW until 1st December 1997. He would not have turned up on Nitro the day after Survivor Series.... in a sense Bret left WWE before his notice period ran out.
If people recall, Bret wanted to forfeit the title the day after Montreal... he was still contracted to WWE for the remainder of November.

Bret holding the title was a factor, but with the screwjob, it meant that Bret left the WWE in a high profile loss... he leaves the WWE with less value, his stock damaged.
If Bret left WWE as unbeaten champion.... what would that say for the rest of the WWE wrestlers? that nobody was good enough to beat him? That would have been a coup for WCW.. getting the guy that nobody as able to beat for his title.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It probably comes down more to Vince wanting Bret to job to Shawn... and being willing to enforce that. Although in many way's Bret forfieting would have been no more damaging than Shawn doing the same earlier in the year... it would have meant the belt was "vacated" or in effect "shitcanned" twice in a year... Shawn saying "finding my smile is more important than this and Bret saying, WCW is worth more than this" within 12 months would not have been good for the belt. Your top guy leaving vacates it and the guy replacing him vacating it kills the title's value... it becomes "no one wants this belt...".

The belt Madusa held was worthless until it went in that bin... then all it's value transfered to WCW... Vince was arguably more worried about Bret vacating the title, then going to WCW and running down... if he "lost it" then he couldn't really do that... as people would have seen the loss.

 

[Weems2k]

Montreal Screwjob still would have happened. Vince knew that Bischoff was out to bury The E. He already gave out spoilers during Nitro, and had guys like Luger show up out of nowhere. If Bret still had the belt when he left for WCW, of course Bischoff would use it to further bury the E.

Also, without any Screwjob, there's now heel Mr. McMahon character being born, and thus, The Attitude Era would have been very different I believe.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The Madussa thing was interesting but it generated only a little buzz, she was Womens Champ and at the end of the day Womens Wrestling is an under card side show, big events and ratings aren't drawn based on the Women's Storylines.

The Flair-91 thing was worrying Vince. WCW already had taken advantage of the fact they aired live every week (when RAW was usually taped) by giving out match results before they aired. Everyone talks about the Nitro/Foley/Finger Poke Of Doom incident but I remember Nitro giving away WWE results back before the NWO storyline started, circa late 95-early 96 (right around time Nitro started surging ahead in the ratings, early 96, six months before the NWO story hit full gear, although WWE would rebound and the two would stay close by W-Mania time)..

If you could get the guy who for better or worse was the de facto face of WWE for the past half decade to not only appear on your show but do so as World Champ, THAT WOULD BE A HUGE SLAP IN THE FACE to WWE and make WCW and Nitro look so strong as the dominant product and show (at a time when WWE wasn't strong to begin with).

It was the exact same concept Vince used in 1991 when WCW fired Flair, with fans actually protesting and loudly chanting "We Want Flair" during WCW shows (watch the 1991 Great AM Bash Main Event, maybe the most embarrassing point in WCW history) Vince had Bobby Heenan spend a full month on WWE TV proclaiming the arrival of "The Real World's Champion" to WWE. It was a huge insult to WCW and invite to their disgruntled fans, made worse by the fact that the very recognizable huge gold belt was being plastered all over WWE TV. If WCW & Nitro could have done the same thing with Hart, exaggerated by the growing presence of the internet (not a factor in 1991) and live TV (everything was taped and shown later in 1991) it would made WWE look even weaker and more sad than 1991 WCW did (which is saying something).

Now Flair had turned down WWE offers before, including a big one in 1989, and in fact likely would not have left WCW if he had not been released after contentious contract negotiations (cut his pay in half, change his name, turn him into a Roman Gladiator character, etc). Leaving for greener pastures (which he almost did in 89) would have been one thing but the way Jim Herd & WCW treated him on the way out, combined with financial dispute over the money the company owed him for the title belt, left him in fairly bitter state, he had few qualms about taking the title and the belt to NY and embarrassing his former employer. Hart likewise was pretty much WWE for life, although by 1996 he was admittedly unhappy with the over all tone of the product storyline content and his own heel turn (Hart was never a fan of "Attitude", he preferred the more traditional kid oriented booking of the 80s). Still, if Vince didn't come to him and tell him point blank he wasn't going to honor the financial agreement they had made and advised him to see if WCW would match it (and take their deal if they did) it's unlikely Hart would have left. Vince had to be worried that Hart might just be bitter enough about being pushed out to pull a similar stunt as he did with Flair in 91, although Hart probably wasn't quite as upset as Flair (Flair reportedly offered to stay and lose the WCW Title at the next PPV but WCW just terminated him mid storyline, THEN the dispute over the money they owed him started).

I tend to believe Hart that he wouldn't have taken the WWE title to Nitro and embarrassed WWE like that, even after being let go I think he still felt enough loyalty to Vince for giving him his big break he wouldn't have done it even if asked (Flair didn't have that loyalty to Jim Herd who was a mid level TBS employee tasked with running WCW, his loyalty was to the Crocketts and they were long gone by this point).. HOWEVER, Vince was in "the fight of his life" trying to revive his company and make them relevant against a much bigger and better funded rival and at this time he was losing, plus there hasn't been much loyalty in the wrestling business, especially when someone is scorned. The NWA (including Jim Crockett who at the time was still in charge) fired Dusty Rhodes to insure that Flair wouldn't leave for WWE (Crockett couldn't sell the NWA to Ted Turner unless he delivered Flair). Hulk Hogan was the face of the NWO , the same man Vince made a mega star out of and built his fortune around. Lex Luger literally showed up on Nitro one night after wrestling on a WWE PPV while everyone believed he was re signing with the company. While I believe that Hart wouldn't have embarrassed Vince & WWE like that I can see why Vince would be worried, and with Hart continually trying to avoid losing in Canada (where the PPV was being held) I can see why he might be suspicious. Add to that Hart's vocal displeasure with the programming in general and the very real behind the scenes animosity with HBK (the guy picked to beat him and now clearly the top guy in the company) and Vince starts to look like the guy who may be paranoid but people really are out to get him.


Bottom line, Madussa wasn't the catalyst for Montreal 97, Flair 91 was, I don't think Vince needed to do it but you can easily understand why he felt he did.