Held back because they aren't ready?

[watchingandwaiting]

There is a report on wrestlezone that says Vladimir Kozlov was to due be the next well-pushed superstar called up to the main roster, but that is being nixed due to his being "not ready". I seem to recall this isn't the first time this has happened with him, and Daniel Rodimer (or Dan Rodman now on Heat) has a similar story. I find it very interesting that WWE is willing to hold these younger guys back because they "aren't ready" but at the same time push guys like Khali, Lashley, etc who would appear to also be "not ready". Especially now with so many injuries, an infusion of new talent would be pretty welcome. How "unready" must these guys be that WWE is not willing to let them step up into these holes in the roster left by injury? And what are peoples' opinions on why some younger guys are being held back while others are getting pushed to the stars?

 

[Mistaap]

That is how the WWE seems to work nowdays. They will push a BIG GUY who can't wrestle worth a damn and shunn the smaller guys who bust their ass and put on great matches. (Shelton, Carlito, Matt Hardy) Screw Khali.. I would rather watch John Cena retain the title until next December than to have Khali win it. and what pisses me off even more is that they are going to do it.

 

[Slyfox696]

Carlito has put on a great match? When did that happen???


And, I think this story about Kozlov, or Oleg Prudius as he was known when Jerry Jarrett brought him to WWE, came out a while back. It was several weeks ago, and basically, from what I remember, Vince asked someone when they hadn't put Kozlov in matches yet, was told that Kozlov wasn't ready and Vince said something to the effect of "Then why the hell are we wasting TV time on him?". Suspiciously enough, Stephanie McMahon's desire to push Daniel Rodimer hard ended a couple days later.

Further proof that Vince McMahon is still the head honcho, and Steph has a long ways to go before taking over the company.

For those of you who may not remember, this is the same man who was brought to the WWE by Jerry Jarrett. This is intriguing considering Jerry Jarrett founded TNA, still had a small financial claim in it, and his son helped run it. And yet, he took him to WWE anyway, which was speculated to occur because he was mad at TNA for forcing him out.

 

[Kasey]

The WWE is run ass-backwards in terms of who they push and don't push in many instances. This is the reason we get to see guys like Bobby Lashley, Batista, Khali, and Cena stink up the shows while other guys who are plenty more qualified are pushed aside. The barometer for who gets the pushes isn't really based on talent as much as it was in years past (an understatement, I know) because the majority of the "top talent" has trouble getting past fifteen minutes while still keeping the crowd awake in a match unless they're working opposite Taker or HBK.

Edge is the one glaring exception because he can work fairly well with just about anybody and is also solid on the mic. The root of the problem is typically formed at the source...i.e. who's running the book. Lagana, Gewirtz, and Hayes have various problems that have really helped to de-evolve the manner in which the shows execute the aspect that is supposed to be the anchor: wrestling.

I can't count how many complete dud main events Cena has been at the forefront of (to the point where he, a token babyface is reviled by the crowd). Unless they feed him a bona fide winner in terms of the work (Angle, Michaels) he flounders and delivers a match that is coma inducing. Even when he does have someone who is typically pretty strong in the ring (Edge) sometimes it still ends up weak.

Batista effectively won his first title opposite Triple H in a match that pretty much had the fans wanting to get up and go take an extended piss (and he's kept up that fine level of work since then).

Lashley has to have everyone fed to him to hide his deficiencies in terms of his creativity and match layouts, or there has to be a hugely scripted layout involving other people (Wrestlemania 23) to cover up for the fact that he has all the legitimate athletic ability in the world...but zero clue how to carry a strong worked match. He's basically this years version of Goldberg...except he talks like a nine year old girl...whoopee.

Someone in the WWE front office should've spotted Khali's uselessness in APW when he was busy dropping trainees on their heads and causing lawsuits. The WWE has nearly half the audience they had in their prime because they forgot to actually book main eventers in a majority of the main events. This the same reason I had to gag my way through the majority of 2006 watching a middle-aged DX bleed their decade-old shtick drier than a popcorn fart with bad jokes and VERY ho-hum wrestling for two of the most consistent workers in the company while simultaneously being treated to Cena's pathetic meanderings.

Until something drastic changes and the mindset goes away from ******ed booking and limp-dick pushes behind "wrestlers" that are lame ducks, I'll likely keep up with my ever-present regimen of fast-forwarding and nodding my head in disgust when I'm watching my DVR recordings of RAW, ECW, and Smackdown each week.

 

[Yuffie_Kisaragi]

I cant see why people are still criticising Cena after the awesome matchs hes put on recently.........sure this time last year he used to be awful but in the past 2 or 3 months nearly every match hes been in has been pretty good.
The other guys mentioned....Khali, Batista and Lashley ill agree with but Cenas impressed me recently.

 

[Slyfox696]

I can't count how many complete dud main events Cena has been at the forefront of (to the point where he, a token babyface is reviled by the crowd). Unless they feed him a bona fide winner in terms of the work (Angle, Michaels) he flounders and delivers a match that is coma inducing. Even when he does have someone who is typically pretty strong in the ring (Edge) sometimes it still ends up weak.

Batista effectively won his first title opposite Triple H in a match that pretty much had the fans wanting to get up and go take an extended piss (and he's kept up that fine level of work since then).

Lashley has to have everyone fed to him to hide his deficiencies in terms of his creativity and match layouts, or there has to be a hugely scripted layout involving other people (Wrestlemania 23) to cover up for the fact that he has all the legitimate athletic ability in the world...but zero clue how to carry a strong worked match. He's basically this years version of Goldberg...except he talks like a nine year old girl...whoopee.

Someone in the WWE front office should've spotted Khali's uselessness in APW when he was busy dropping trainees on their heads and causing lawsuits. The WWE has nearly half the audience they had in their prime because they forgot to actually book main eventers in a majority of the main events. This the same reason I had to gag my way through the majority of 2006 watching a middle-aged DX bleed their decade-old shtick drier than a popcorn fart with bad jokes and VERY ho-hum wrestling for two of the most consistent workers in the company while simultaneously being treated to Cena's pathetic meanderings.

Some points I wish to disagree with you on:

I have yet to see a Cena main-event where people are uninterested and don't care. His matches are almost always hot, and there is almost always a good reception at the end of them. Whether you like it or not, Cena IS a good wrestler.

I'm not sure which Batista matches you are referring to, but his match with Triple H at Wrestlemania and his HIAC with Triple H, is probably the best work he has produced (with his WM with Undertaker being up there to). Granted, the matches were not great by any means, but they were still solid main-events.

You compared Lashley to Goldberg. Doesn't that make Lashley pretty decent then? Regardless, Lashley's improvement since his debut has been off the charts, and he's put on some decent matches. Certainly decent enough to be considered the third tier champion in the company.

As far as Khali dropping people on their hands, must I bring up Owen Hart's piledriver on Steve Austin?

And, as far as the WWE losing their audience, let's look at the WWE champions from about 2002 on shall we? Chris Jericho lost the belt at the end of 2001, we then go Triple H, Hulk Hogan (1 month), Undertaker, Rock, Brock Lesnar, Big Show (1 month), Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero...which takes us up to 2004, which is when the audience was at it's lowest point.

Now, let's look at the World Heavyweight Champion...

Triple H, Shawn Michaels (1 month), Triple H, Goldberg, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Randy Orton (1 month), Triple H, Vacant, Triple H

That's from the title's inception until Triple H dropped the belt in 2005.

Now, we've already established elsewhere that by 2004, ratings and attendance were at half of what they were in 2001. Now, who was REALLY responsible for that? Guys like Cena, Batista, and Lashley? Or guys like Jericho, Triple H, Benoit, Guerrero, and Angle?

 

[X]

How in god's name can you honestly blame the decline in ratings and attendance on men like Jericho, Triple H, Benoit, Guerrero, and Angle? That is absolutely mind-fuckingly absurd. Are you forgetting that all of those men were being pushed to the roof in 2000, 2001 when WWE was at its highest peak?

To actually blame the decline on that list of some of the best wrestlers of all time, all of them legends, is so ridiculious it really astounds me. The decline couldn't have to do with the fact that the PRODUCT as a whole was becoming worse? Maybe because an absurdly old Hogan came back and stunk up the main event? Maybe because The Rock and Austin left? Maybe because the storylines were turning to shit? Maybe because of the Invasion angle, which made WCW & ECW look like punk bitches? Could those possibly have had something to do with the decline?

Ratings are only starting to come up now, mostly because of the influx of little kids to the product through the exposure of John Cena. Look at when Batista & Cena's initial push took place, and you'll see ratings went to shit, and only now have even remotely recovered. The ratings the WWE is getting now wouldn't even qualify for a Sunday Night Heat back in 1999.

 

[rickdaroversfan88]

The WWE is run ass-backwards in terms of who they push and don't push in many instances. This is the reason we get to see guys like Bobby Lashley, Batista, Khali, and Cena stink up the shows while other guys who are plenty more qualified are pushed aside. The barometer for who gets the pushes isn't really based on talent as much as it was in years past (an understatement, I know) because the majority of the "top talent" has trouble getting past fifteen minutes while still keeping the crowd awake in a match unless they're working opposite Taker or HBK.

Edge is the one glaring exception because he can work fairly well with just about anybody and is also solid on the mic. The root of the problem is typically formed at the source...i.e. who's running the book. Lagana, Gewirtz, and Hayes have various problems that have really helped to de-evolve the manner in which the shows execute the aspect that is supposed to be the anchor: wrestling.

I can't count how many complete dud main events Cena has been at the forefront of (to the point where he, a token babyface is reviled by the crowd). Unless they feed him a bona fide winner in terms of the work (Angle, Michaels) he flounders and delivers a match that is coma inducing. Even when he does have someone who is typically pretty strong in the ring (Edge) sometimes it still ends up weak.

Batista effectively won his first title opposite Triple H in a match that pretty much had the fans wanting to get up and go take an extended piss (and he's kept up that fine level of work since then).

Lashley has to have everyone fed to him to hide his deficiencies in terms of his creativity and match layouts, or there has to be a hugely scripted layout involving other people (Wrestlemania 23) to cover up for the fact that he has all the legitimate athletic ability in the world...but zero clue how to carry a strong worked match. He's basically this years version of Goldberg...except he talks like a nine year old girl...whoopee.

Someone in the WWE front office should've spotted Khali's uselessness in APW when he was busy dropping trainees on their heads and causing lawsuits. The WWE has nearly half the audience they had in their prime because they forgot to actually book main eventers in a majority of the main events. This the same reason I had to gag my way through the majority of 2006 watching a middle-aged DX bleed their decade-old shtick drier than a popcorn fart with bad jokes and VERY ho-hum wrestling for two of the most consistent workers in the company while simultaneously being treated to Cena's pathetic meanderings.

Until something drastic changes and the mindset goes away from ******ed booking and limp-dick pushes behind "wrestlers" that are lame ducks, I'll likely keep up with my ever-present regimen of fast-forwarding and nodding my head in disgust when I'm watching my DVR recordings of RAW, ECW, and Smackdown each week.

 

[Slyfox696]

How in god's name can you honestly blame the decline in ratings and attendance on men like Jericho, Triple H, Benoit, Guerrero, and Angle? That is absolutely mind-fuckingly absurd. Are you forgetting that all of those men were being pushed to the roof in 2000, 2001 when WWE was at its highest peak?

I merely pointed out, that when they were on top, ratings declined drastically, and are only now, with guys like Cena on top, going back up.

That is just cold hard facts. Take them as you will.


But anyways, has anyone ever seen this Daniel Rodimer wrestle on Heat or Oleg Prudius wrestle in OVW? How do they look?

 

[Kasey]

I have yet to see a Cena main-event where people are uninterested and don't care. His matches are almost always hot, and there is almost always a good reception at the end of them. Whether you like it or not, Cena IS a good wrestler.

Maybe that's because the majority of programs he's been put in have been with guys that can work their ass of? Let's see: HHH, HBK, Angle, Edge, a short one with Christian. Anytime Cena has to be the one to carry the load, he sucks (See: Umaga feud). Hell, with that list of guys to put someone over, I COULD BE A MAIN EVENTER.

I'm not sure which Batista matches you are referring to, but his match with Triple H at Wrestlemania and his HIAC with Triple H, is probably the best work he has produced (with his WM with Undertaker being up there to). Granted, the matches were not great by any means, but they were still solid main-events.

They were asswipes. The crowd didn't give a damn when Batista won the title. They got smoked at WM21 by a medicated Kurt Angle and an over-the-hill Shawn Michaels. Batista doesn't have the talent to build a ring, let alone wrestle in one. And Taker was obviously the one who fostered the layout of this year's Wrestlemania. It was nearly the same type of match he wrestled with Orton a couple of Mania's ago. Aside from Batista's two botches and mistimings, Taker's skill and savvy bailed him out.

You compared Lashley to Goldberg. Doesn't that make Lashley pretty decent then? Regardless, Lashley's improvement since his debut has been off the charts, and he's put on some decent matches. Certainly decent enough to be considered the third tier champion in the company.

No, because Goldberg sucks. He had limited ring vocabulary, no rhythm and unless someone with undeniable skill was working with him (Bret), then his matches were five minute squashes with zero depth or intrigue and were as disjointed as it gets (not to mention ultra-predictable). Lashley is following in the same footsteps. Hey, Lashley can have the ECW belt for all I care, at this point. And Goldberg's predictability as a performer (not just his fault as he did what he could with what he had) was a prime catalyst for why the WWF came back to kick WCW's ass. Not a trend I'd follow.

As far as Khali dropping people on their hands, must I bring up Owen Hart's piledriver on Steve Austin?

Did Steve Austin die? Didn't think so.

And, as far as the WWE losing their audience, let's look at the WWE champions from about 2002 on shall we? Chris Jericho lost the belt at the end of 2001, we then go Triple H, Hulk Hogan (1 month), Undertaker, Rock, Brock Lesnar, Big Show (1 month), Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero...which takes us up to 2004, which is when the audience was at it's lowest point.

Do you think that some of the horrible booking (ala Hogan sporting the belt) is what helped? What about colossal storylines like Katie Vick or the ultra-stupid WCW Invasion angle? Yeah, those sound like hit-makers, to me. They had a stacked roster that put on one of the best Manias ever in Seattle in 2003. However, the problem wasn't with the talent solely. It's also the booking.

Triple H, Shawn Michaels (1 month), Triple H, Goldberg, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Randy Orton (1 month), Triple H, Vacant, Triple H

The quality of the matches during this point was spotty at best. I know this because I used to catalog all the episodes of Raw and Smackdown on VHS (at least the passable ones). This was why I became a TNA viewer a few years back. The average Raw in those days usually involved ten minutes in the beginning donated to HHH and his speeches about how great he is. They had some good portions that probably could've donated an upswing in ratings...however, when you follow up an awesomely executed HHH/Benoit/HBK angle with Benoit wrestling a sloth like Kane, don't expect much. Same goes for their premature booking of Orton to win the title. Notice the consistency in this pattern? HHH. Not that he isn't talented, but the fact is that he was conjoined to that belt while the undercard was booked like $hit, so it's no wonder people tuned out. A lot of times I was tempted to. And I'm a friggin' wrestling geek of the Nth degree.

Now, we've already established elsewhere that by 2004, ratings and attendance were at half of what they were in 2001. Now, who was REALLY responsible for that? Guys like Cena, Batista, and Lashley? Or guys like Jericho, Triple H, Benoit, Guerrero, and Angle?

I'd place it in everyone's lap. The talent was there in those days to make a resurgence in the company. All the main eventers you mentioned could and did put on some great matches that actually went the distance, when the booking was passable. The people steering the ship were just ******ed. Just like now. They want to fix a program by replacing once credible workers with one trick ponies, while having pretty much every title in the company be a worthless chunk of leather and metal because they've ruined nearly every division through piss-poor booking. Besides, guys like Austin, Taker, Rock, and Foley were still on top when stuff started to decline and they were also there went it was riding high circa 99-00. My main point is that if you have a scheme that isn't working as a whole...why keep bleeding it dry using less credible performers that can't deliver the same quality peformances? And as stated in another thread...a .2 increase for a show like Raw isn't much to write home about. So obviously, their plan B isn't working. Time to find a plan C if you ask me. There have been so many missed opportunities in the company this decade that it's downright nauseating.

 

[Slyfox696]

Maybe that's because the majority of programs he's been put in have been with guys that can work their ass of? Let's see: HHH, HBK, Angle, Edge, a short one with Christian. Anytime Cena has to be the one to carry the load, he sucks (See: Umaga feud). Hell, with that list of guys to put someone over, I COULD BE A MAIN EVENTER.

They were asswipes. The crowd didn't give a damn when Batista won the title. They got smoked at WM21 by a medicated Kurt Angle and an over-the-hill Shawn Michaels. Batista doesn't have the talent to build a ring, let alone wrestle in one. And Taker was obviously the one who fostered the layout of this year's Wrestlemania. It was nearly the same type of match he wrestled with Orton a couple of Mania's ago. Aside from Batista's two botches and mistimings, Taker's skill and savvy bailed him out.

No, because Goldberg sucks. He had limited ring vocabulary, no rhythm and unless someone with undeniable skill was working with him (Bret), then his matches were five minute squashes with zero depth or intrigue and were as disjointed as it gets (not to mention ultra-predictable). Lashley is following in the same footsteps. Hey, Lashley can have the ECW belt for all I care, at this point. And Goldberg's predictability as a performer (not just his fault as he did what he could with what he had) was a prime catalyst for why the WWF came back to kick WCW's ass. Not a trend I'd follow.

Did Steve Austin die? Didn't think so.

Do you think that some of the horrible booking (ala Hogan sporting the belt) is what helped? What about colossal storylines like Katie Vick or the ultra-stupid WCW Invasion angle? Yeah, those sound like hit-makers, to me. They had a stacked roster that put on one of the best Manias ever in Seattle in 2003. However, the problem wasn't with the talent solely. It's also the booking.

The quality of the matches during this point was spotty at best. I know this because I used to catalog all the episodes of Raw and Smackdown on VHS (at least the passable ones). This was why I became a TNA viewer a few years back. The average Raw in those days usually involved ten minutes in the beginning donated to HHH and his speeches about how great he is. They had some good portions that probably could've donated an upswing in ratings...however, when you follow up an awesomely executed HHH/Benoit/HBK angle with Benoit wrestling a sloth like Kane, don't expect much. Same goes for their premature booking of Orton to win the title. Notice the consistency in this pattern? HHH. Not that he isn't talented, but the fact is that he was conjoined to that belt while the undercard was booked like $hit, so it's no wonder people tuned out. A lot of times I was tempted to. And I'm a friggin' wrestling geek of the Nth degree.

I'd place it in everyone's lap. The talent was there in those days to make a resurgence in the company. All the main eventers you mentioned could and did put on some great matches that actually went the distance, when the booking was passable. The people steering the ship were just ******ed. Just like now. They want to fix a program by replacing once credible workers with one trick ponies, while having pretty much every title in the company be a worthless chunk of leather and metal because they've ruined nearly every division through piss-poor booking. Besides, guys like Austin, Taker, Rock, and Foley were still on top when stuff started to decline and they were also there went it was riding high circa 99-00. My main point is that if you have a scheme that isn't working as a whole...why keep bleeding it dry using less credible performers that can't deliver the same quality peformances? And as stated in another thread...a .2 increase for a show like Raw isn't much to write home about. So obviously, their plan B isn't working. Time to find a plan C if you ask me.

I realize I'm just as responsible for going off subject as you are, but let's save this conversation for the another thread. Post this exact same thing in another thread if you like, and I'll respond there.


Let's save use of this one for the topic. Have you seen either Kozlov or Rodimer wrestle? I have not, so I'm curious as to how good they are.

 

[Kasey]

We can just continue it via PM's, dude. I haven't seen Kozlov or Rodimer (except for Rodimer's TE stint...which didn't say much). From all the advance reports they are just big and pretty. But, at this point, what's new? I can't find anything for either guy on youtube, so they probably haven't done much that's noteworthy, yet. Sad that at this juncture, I actually miss J.R. as the Talent Relations scout.

 

[watchingandwaiting]

I realize I'm just as responsible for going off subject as you are, but let's save this conversation for the another thread. Post this exact same thing in another thread if you like, and I'll respond there.


Let's save use of this one for the topic. Have you seen either Kozlov or Rodimer wrestle? I have not, so I'm curious as to how good they are.

If you want to see Rodimer wrestle, check out the lastest HEAT on wwe.com. He has a match with Eugene. My impression of him was a cross between Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton. The match itself was only about 5 minutes (I don't watch much heat, but I guess that is a typical length?). During the match, he had a pretty impressive belly to belly throw and a decent amount of power moves. I'm pretty sure he also threw a finisher in, although I might be getting it confused with the Chuck Palumbo match, which gives some indication of how unmemorable it was. If I had to compare him to one active member of the roster, I would probably say Chris Masters minus the stupid gimmick and even worse finisher. But please, check it out for yourself as I am interested to get other opinions on him. Any if anyone has a link on Youtube or whatever for a Kozlov match, please share.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well, I just watched the Dan Rodman match, and I can easily see what Stephanie McMahon saw in him. The guy is a monster! Incredibly huge, and moves pretty decently. He used a Full Nelson Slam as his finisher.

Obviously, this guy is pretty green. His selling was not fitting with his character, and his acting and movements in the ring reminded me of Heidenreich. But, I see that there is potential to the guy and once he gets more experienced, he might be a major player in the company somewhere down the line.


Of course, this is all based off of the one match, so take that for what you will.

 

[Jeremy Dick]

I agree with watchingandwaiting.. Rodimer looks a lot like a cross between Randy Orton and Brock Lesnar! I kept thinking that throughout the entire match. But my perception of the guy is that he has a great look and I like his monster heel character.

He was a bit green in the ring and some of his timing was off, but overall it wasn't a bad match. I don't think he's much worse than some of the more experienced talent we see on TV. And he definitely needs a new finisher.. the full nelson slam looks weak.

I'm curious to see how he sounds on the mic, but my initial perception is that he has potential if he improves his in-ring skills which will come with experience. This is based off one match though, and I want to see some more to get a better opinion of the guy.