''Heels & Faces Are For Kids''

[Y 2 Jake]

Just been informed of it on another forum. I'm pretty sure that a lot of what happens in the world revolves around various forms of good and evil. Films take full adavantage of good guys and bad guys.

Do you think it's true? That as an adult heels and faces are no longer important. This guy was about 12 by the way.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Yeah that's a pretty good assessment I think. But aren't we all just kids on the inside? I mean, CM Punk is just saying what he believes and advocating a drug free livestyle. Adults would think he's a pretty reasonable, regular guy. Sure he might have violent outbreaks, but doesn't everybody? We're only human.

Wrestling fans don't though. We love to hate him and cheer Jeff Hardy. Aren't we great?

 

[gd]

Heels and faces are pretty much what pro wrestling was built on. If you didn't have good v. evil, pro wrestling wouldn't be interesting at all. I'm sure there are many adult wrestling fans who get angry when their favorite face loses today. Whoever was telling you this probably thinks that pro wrestling should try to be like MMA, which is dumb.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Just been informed of it on another forum. I'm pretty sure that a lot of what happens in the world revolves around various forms of good and evil. Films take full adavantage of good guys and bad guys.

Do you think it's true? That as an adult heels and faces are no longer important. This guy was about 12 by the way.

Well, if that's true then I suppose all movies and television shows out there are for kids, as well ... since they also have good guys and bad guys.

I remember when Vince was going through his "shades of grey" phase, and quickly found out that it didn't work.

That was an asinine comment for someone to make to you. I hope you put the guy in his place. And I have to agree with GD above in that this was likely a person who wants to view wrestling as a legitimate fighting sport, like UFC. You just have to calmly crush the dreams of these people by informing them that as long as wrestling is scripted and has scripted match results, it will NEVER be a legitimate sport. So therefore if it isn't sport, than it is Entertainment. And in this form of Entertainment as in a majority forms of Entertainment in the Media, we have Protagonists and Antagonists.

Tell him to go watch UFC, if he wants to view wrestling as a sport.

 

[Miko]

Seems silly to me, most things have to have a hero and a villain, Die Hard would be shit if Hans Grueber wasnt just an utter cunt. Thats rated an 18 I think, so it's not for kids.

But yeah, generally there has to be someone your supposed to route for and someone your supposed to hate, more often than not the villains more fun than the hero but there you go.

 

[absent]

If you want to market wrestling beyond it's pure athletic and technical appreciation, I'd say heels and faces whether a "permanent" character of within a single storyline (much harder to do) is a necessary. Back in the old days of territories I suppose it was much easier, like most sports you could market one player or team as the home town side and anyone coming in from outside would be an obvious heel to root against, just as in football/baseball/basketball whatever. Once the territories merged and wrestling became national, I guess that easy face/heel booking divide largely disappeared.

If you take away the heel/face divide as characters the audience is largely indifferent to either wrestler and all that's left is who is a better fake fighter than the other. And seeing as everyone knows it's a work, the audience for a "who's the better fake fighter" is most likely tiny. I really don't see how you can attempt to market wrestling at a wide audience without the heel/face, good/bad, the one you should cheer/the one should boo, type entertainment. Without it all you are left with is audience appreciation of the technicalities of fake fighting.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

If you want to market wrestling beyond it's pure athletic and technical appreciation, I'd say heels and faces whether a "permanent" character of within a single storyline (much harder to do) is a necessary. Back in the old days of territories I suppose it was much easier, like most sports you could market one player or team as the home town side and anyone coming in from outside would be an obvious heel to root against, just as in football/baseball/basketball whatever. Once the territories merged and wrestling became national, I guess that easy face/heel booking divide largely disappeared.

If you take away the heel/face divide as characters the audience is largely indifferent to either wrestler and all that's left is who is a better fake fighter than the other. And seeing as everyone knows it's a work, the audience for a "who's the better fake fighter" is most likely tiny. I really don't see how you can attempt to market wrestling at a wide audience without the heel/face, good/bad, the one you should cheer/the one should boo, type entertainment. Without it all you are left with is audience appreciation of the technicalities of fake fighting.

You don't know how right you are with that comment. However, you would be surprised to know how many fans on the Internet truly want wrestling and the wrestling audience to reflect that ideology. This is very much like the Japanese ideology towards wrestling .... and there is a very loud voice on the Internet that very much wants to see American Pro Wrestling become just that. I could not disagree with that mentality enough.

Just so one can spot these types of fans, they are typically the ones who say things along the lines of (and all of these examples are things that have been stated from posters right here on this forum):



"A superstar should be able to get over just by his quality of wrestling in the ring. He doesn't need to get over with the audience with the mic. If he can't get over by his in-ring skills alone, then he should leave."

"Gail Kim should either resign or be fired. She committed an abomination by getting herself knocked out as a result of a Cross Body Block gone bad. She is a terrible wrestler, and doesn't deserve to be in a WWE ring."

"The Attitude Era is dead and it isn't coming back. That programming was utterly horrendous and over-rated, despite how successful it was."

(When one makes a comment along the lines of ...) " ..... the SPORT of professional wrestling."

"They spent two fucking minutes on a promo .... Those are another two minutes that could be used towards a match."

"I like the current announcing style in wrestling. Taz and Matt Striker are great commentators. I like the way they analyze the action (similar to real sports analysts)."


The WWE fans who seem to have this mentality are typically fans of Smackdown and Superstars. They despise Raw because it isn't all matches. I like Raw better than the other shows, however I still am not a big fan of Raw in its current state, either. The issues I have with Raw are completely different than the issues these fans have with Raw. Although the Guest GM Concept is an improvement over what Raw used to be.

If a match does not run 12-15 minutes, they berate the WWE for it.

Non WWE fans who have this mentality can be found watching Ring of Honor or Japanese wrestling.

 

[X]

You don't know how right you are with that comment. However, you would be surprised to know how many fans on the Internet truly want wrestling and the wrestling audience to reflect that ideology. This is very much like the Japanese ideology towards wrestling .... and there is a very loud voice on the Internet that very much wants to see American Pro Wrestling become just that.

And I don't see what the problem with that is. Is the WWE booking style great? God damn right it is, Vince McMahon is the greatest wrestling mind to ever live, but I don't see why you have to put down other fans that dare to want something different. Why is it that American wrestling is superior to Japanese wrestling? Simply because we're American? Isn't that a rather xenophobic attitude?

I have no issue with the style of American wrestling. But I love to see a quality in-ring match like Puro has focused on, what's wrong with enjoying that? At the end of the day wrestling is entertainment, and millions are entertained by technical wrestling. I don't see how that makes them inferior to those that prefer WWE, it's a rather elitist attitude to think that way.

 

[absent]

However, you would be surprised to know how many fans on the Internet truly want wrestling and the wrestling audience to reflect that ideology.

From a personal perspective I'd love to see a better balance in the WWE. But I was talking from the perspective of a company wanting to sell it's product to a bigger wider general audience, not a comparatively small group of pro-wresting aficionados (of which I am one).

And to digress a bit, this is why the WWE employs Hollywood writers, they have no wrestling competition any more (they don't consider TNA legitimate competition), their competition is other TV drama programs, so they poach from the same talent pool as their competition. And this is one reason why heels/faces are still a big part, they see their competition as other TV drama shows to who the heel/face play is as paramount as it has always has been.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

And I don't see what the problem with that is. Is the WWE booking style great? God damn right it is, Vince McMahon is the greatest wrestling mind to ever live, but I don't see why you have to put down other fans that dare to want something different. Why is it that American wrestling is superior to Japanese wrestling? Simply because we're American? Isn't that a rather xenophobic attitude?

I have no issue with the style of American wrestling. But I love to see a quality in-ring match like Puro has focused on, what's wrong with enjoying that? At the end of the day wrestling is entertainment, and millions are entertained by technical wrestling. I don't see how that makes them inferior to those that prefer WWE, it's a rather elitist attitude to think that way.

Well, the problem is that more often than not, the Elitism is demonstrated through fans in your Camp who want to see American Pro Wrestling become Japanized, as opposed to fans like me.

You talk about "Millions of people" who "want to appreciate technical wrestling" ..... what evidence do you have that shows that more people would rather view wrestling this way, as opposed to what Pro Wrestling has always been? If more fans wanted to view wrestling as a sport, and simply revolve it around having solely appreciation for the matches, why isn't Ring of Honor more popular?

WWE tried doing its own style of Ring of Honor this past year, and it failed. They did it with Smackdown, Superstars, and ECW ... primarily .... (even though Raw actually became more wrestling-focused at one point, as well). It did not draw. Vince has focused so much on improving the quality of wrestling, yet it did nothing for ratings or PPV buyrates. Vince specifically was upset with Smackdown and could not understand why the ratings were dropping despite Creative overwhelmingly feeling that Smackdown was the better "Wrestling program". Well, the answer is clear as day. That isn't what the majority of fans want to see. And you see a lot of angry people. The crowds sit in utter silence.

Yet when Raw reversed course, and came up with the Guest GM concept, ratings went up ... while Smackdown and Superstars ratings went down. Even ECW seems to be getting back focusing on more entertainment as opposed to just matches.

So I see no evidence that more fans want to view pro wrestling from a technical aspect, as opposed to the total entertainment package we traditionally always have.

However, where the problem lies is that I never said I would lobby to have this option taken away from fans who want to view wrestling like this. In my vision, WWE would be a distributor of a variety of wrestling products, and a product like this would be one of them. I don't have a problem with sharing the pie.

The difference I see is that where as if I had the power to do so ... others in your side of the camp disagree, and with you guys, its either all or nothing. The mentality in your camp is that "All the WWE programs have to be technically-oriented, and there shouldn't be any edgy show or entertainment show like Raw."

At the end of the day, I feel like where as I may personally not like your tastes in wrestling, and am more so a traditional fan who likes a hybrid of the past Eras in WWE (Hogan Era and Attitude Era) ... I still respect your tastes enough to continue to offer one show for you guys. However, my tastes as a traditional fan of American Pro Wrestling are not respected in return. My posts are a direct result of the fans of technical wrestling bashing me and my tastes in wrestling, and me simply fighting back and voicing my own opinion.

I have found the technical wrestling fans to be a far more arrogant breed of fan than any other wrestling fan of any different Era. If you don't embrace their view of what wrestling "should be", then you aren't a "real wrestling fan" and should be prepared to have your own tastes in wrestling insulted. And that is where my frustration comes into play with fans of Ring of Honor and those who embrace the ideology of seeing American Pro Wrestling Japanized.

 

[absent]

I have to agree with you Lord Sidious. As much as I love the more pure wrestling shows like ROH, the WWE could never survive emulating this style of show. And that's why we need multiple shows like WWE/TNA/ROH. Personally I'd like to see TNA offering a perfect blend between the pure entertainment style of the WWE and the pure wrestling style of ROH. WWE is the mass market hollywood style of wrestling, ROH should be the pure aficionado style. TNA could fill a large gap between the two but it needs to find the hard balance. I enjoy all three but TNA aggravates me the most because it can't seem to find that happy medium, it's trying too hard to be WCW in the days it was chasing WWF when it should be trying to more differentiate itself.

 

[X]

Well, the problem is that more often than not, the Elitism is demonstrated through fans in your Camp who want to see American Pro Wrestling become Japanized, as opposed to fans like me.

And I'm against that as well. I enjoy all styles of wrestling, from the WWE to Puro to lucha to ROH and beyond. I don't think any wrestling fan should consider themselves more "elite" than others because of their view on wrestling and it's "purity".

So I agree with you, it's wrong when fans of technical in-ring driven products feel they are better than WWE fans as well.

You talk about "Millions of people" who "want to appreciate technical wrestling" ..... what evidence do you have that shows that more people would rather view wrestling this way, as opposed to what Pro Wrestling has always been?

I never claimed that more fans would rather see a technical-driven product than the current WWE product. Not sure where you're getting that, I'm simply saying that there certainly ARE millions of wrestling fans who enjoy technical matches just as much if not more than the WWE style. I didn't say that a majority of fans think that, but that technical products certainly have a large fanbase, and ensure that promotions like ROH continue doing business.

WWE tried doing its own style of Ring of Honor this past year, and it failed. They did it with Smackdown, Superstars, and ECW ... primarily .... (even though Raw actually became more wrestling-focused at one point, as well). It did not draw. Vince has focused so much on improving the quality of wrestling, yet it did nothing for ratings or PPV buyrates. Vince specifically was upset with Smackdown and could not understand why the ratings were dropping despite Creative overwhelmingly feeling that Smackdown was the better "Wrestling program". Well, the answer is clear as day. That isn't what the majority of fans want to see. And you see a lot of angry people. The crowds sit in utter silence.

Yet when Raw reversed course, and came up with the Guest GM concept, ratings went up ... while Smackdown and Superstars ratings went down. Even ECW seems to be getting back focusing on more entertainment as opposed to just matches.

So I see no evidence that more fans want to view pro wrestling from a technical aspect, as opposed to the total entertainment package we traditionally always have.

...Again Sidious, I did not once make the statement that wrestling fans would rather see an in-ring wrestling driven product over the WWE "sports-entertainment" concept. Not sure why you're trying to argue this with me when I actually agree with what you're saying.