Heel turn?? Oh boy!!

[mrfantastic111]

Okay, so I think ALOT of us have lost sight in what makes wrestling interesting. I think that it's become a popular belief within the IWC that turning a wrestler heel is the magical solution to every problem. Let me explain...

When a face isn't getting over or there is a reversal of crowd reactions towards a particular wrestler, a face may be turned heel in order to give that wrestler new intrigue with fans. This has worked with the careers of R-Truth in 2011, Christian in 2011, CM Punk in 2009, Edge in 2004, amongst others such as Hogan back when he helped form the nWo. These heel turns allowed these guys to change their character enough so that they could create greater interest.

With that said; however, I'm starting to see comments pop up all over the place, and they all generally suggest that to save someones career you NEED to turn them heel. These comments have applied to guys like Kofi and Cena, but have also been made to 'increase interest' in guys like HHH and Big Show. The problem I have with this is that if the IWC doesn't like a face, then they don't think that the casual or non-IWC fans don't care about these faces either.

I think that it's becoming very hard for the WWE to produce faces that the IWC enjoy, and alot of us dont like to give guys like Sheamus and R-Truth a chance, and think that everyone should be turned heel because turning someone is the answer to all of our problems, because suddenly it will make us like them more. I don't think that the problem is that these guys aren't good faces, I just think that the trend of the 'cool rebel' stops us who analyse every second of the product from enjoying or appreciate faces. It could also be linked to amount of 'goodie goodie' faces of the past few years.

Turning everyone heel isn't the answer to every problem that involves a face getting 'over'. The problem is that we as IWC fan don't give these stars a chance, possible because we are constantly comparing the product to the faces of previous generations, of which the product was catered to a completely different primary audience.

Also, whilst we as the IWC may not care about a face like Justin Gabriel, we sometimes forget that he may cater to casual audiences, to whom really seem to enjoy his face persona. We don't think like casual fans or kids anymore, so it's never our first instinct for us to realise that non-IWC don't critique every match second by second, and usually cheer good guys and boo the bad guys, much like we used to before we all became obsessed with booking the perfect wrestling television show. Instead it's our instinct to look at a face and think "hmmmm how could I improve them...", or, as many recent comment trends have indicated on this site "It's been five minutes and the crowd isn't in love with the guy yet. Instead of giving him a few weeks to get over, I think he should just turn heel".

Your thoughts?

 

[thelegacywillremain1]

every thing you said was right on the money i couldnt have said it better my self i just think alot of the IWC want tv-14 wrestling so bad that every face sucks and making them heel will draw vince closer to making pg go away get over it guys its not gonna happen we are not the only fans thats why its called the wwe universe millions of ppl all over the world watch this so turning cena heel might go over well for the united states but what about the fans in london spain africa i dont think they feel the same way we do you might hate what they are doing with kofi cena etc but its a million other ppl that love cena and kofi im just saying

 

[cbear47]

My thoughts?

I think you're gonna get flamed.


But, to the point, it is the critical difference between the insider/critic/auteur type, and the general public, in any entertainment medium. Me, I hate Michael Bay movies. No matter how many tickets he sells, no matter what sort of acclaim he might receive from the mass media, I doubt anything he'll ever make will change my mind of him. Perhaps if he did something out of left field, went and did a character piece about two hobos riding the rails in the late 19th century and the evolution of man in the industrial age, might I give him credit as a filmmaker.

Thing is, that's not Michael Bay. Michael Bay is the flashy, explosion-a-minute (minimum) hero tale of ludicrous proportion that replaces cinematographic excellence with excessive editting that makes epileptics avert their eyes. It's what he is, and, well... as much as it pains me to say, he is damn good at what he does. However, he is not a "filmmaker," in my eyes.

Replace Bay with Cena, flashy movies with simplistic match styles and catch phrases, and the hobo movie with a heel turn, and, voila!


So, to OP, yeah, the critics will always hope for the grand scale on some level, and those who are popular, but fall short of our ideals, shalled pooped-upon be. Even more so BEACAUSE they're popular, because we hope to convert others to understand why he's not as good as, say, Hitchcock or Scorcese (or Flair or the Harts).

 

[JUSTINMFNBEEMER]

great, now all i can think about is hobos.... in all seriousness, the iwc doesnt know what they want, turn wrestler x and the iwc will bitch it was done wrong. iwc wants a heel cena, yet cant understand why wwe wont. hes a mf'in merchandise cash cow? would u go from a high paying job to go work at kfc because a feuw dipshits said it might be cool?

 

[origanaljerichoholic]

The thing about cena is, even if he went heel, he would still sell tons of merchandise and tickets if not more, hulk hogan did, the rock did it, and austin. I think what we want more than anything is too see cena do something different, its so aggravating watching his old matches and seeing how good he was, to the terrible matches he produces now. Turning a heel to a face and a face to a heel is not the solution to everything true, given that us fans dont seem to ever be satisfied i think they should just focus on evolving their superstars rather than just turning their crowd reaction.

 

[H33LTurn]

I think you are 100% right. I think it all boils down to what heel and face represent. Lets take a heel in real life for example. A person doesnt have to go out of their way to upset you in real life. They call you a name or hit you and suddenly the two of you are enemies. However, people do have to go out of their way to earn you trust and fall into good graces with you. And while someone may be good other personality traits might not sit right with you. And theres always that person who seems to good (Cena up until this Kane rivalry). A lot of faces are just bland cookie cutter characters. They have a nice smile like Evan Bourne and a flashy moveset like Kofi Kingston's thats only purpose is to draw attention and deter people from the fact that this particular superstar lacks true personality. Look at Jinder Mahal. If he were a face he would be even more irrelevant. But the fact that hes heel makes us realize that we're at least supposed to dislike him. I dont think making someone a heel just for the sake of having to be less creative with the character is a good solution. Character changes dont automatically require a heel or face turn. Look at Dolph Ziggler. Hes still a heel but now hes the "show off". A new nickname means a new reason to keep watching when hes on. Cena a face, he has a new shirt, new pants, is significantly more agressive, but is still a good guy.

 

[mindlesspuppet]

When I was younger, growing up in the early 90s, my favorite wrestlers were Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, and Macho Man. They were my favorites because I knew everytime they stepped in the ring I'd get a show.

I remember watching a pay-per-view with a friend when I was probably about 10 with Shawn Michaels vs Brett Hart. My friend informed me, that I shouldn't like Michaels because he's the "bad guy", but that didn't matter for me.

I didn't know if they were heel or face. I didn't care for promos. I cared about the wrestling. As I got older I grew more appreciation for promos and storylines, and truth be told, my favorite wrestlers didn't change much.

I think the problem is there has been very little grey area these days. Michaels, Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect were all heels but they were all likable. They won cleanly quite a bit. They didn't come out and call the audience peons or insult local sports teams.

These days its rare to see a heel win clean. Every single one insults the audience to build easy heat, it's just not very appealing. The same case can be made for faces, they are all too baby-face. Most play the good guy card up too much. This works for some wrestlers, but very few.

While I prefer him as a heel, I think Sheamus is a great face. He's funny, interesting, good in ring. He also has the ability to be genuinely threatening because of his heal run, and can be ruthlessly brutal in ring.

What I'm getting at here, and how it relates to the topic is they need to let wrestlers flirt with the grey area more. If a wrestler is an all around good guy, then he's predictable, and unless he gets a godly push like Cena had they have little chance of getting over. So then we reason that they'd be a better heel.

If a face picks up a chair and goes to town on someone, it catches us off guard, it gives them more depth and keeps them interesting. When was the last face vs face fued, or even match, that anyone remembers? We rarely see them these days.

I will say the WWE in recent months as done a great job adding depth to faces; Cena's pent up rage, Brodus clay is goofy but a monster in the ring, even the Big Show has become somewhat interesting (which is a first for him IMO).

I don't think the solution is making everyone heel, I think the solution is letting the faces break the mold. R-Truth right now is very much a face, with a what is a heel persona, because they had him go against the Miz, who is in my mind best heel in the business at the moment.

I think that's the right path to take, build good feuds. The audience will pick who they like. Don't relay on simple face or heel tactics.

Or hell, if a wrestler can't get over as a face, the solution isn't turning them into a heel, it's making them beat on The Miz.

 

[solidsnake]

Okay, so I think ALOT of us have lost sight in what makes wrestling interesting. I think that it's become a popular belief within the IWC that turning a wrestler heel is the magical solution to every problem. Let me explain...

When a face isn't getting over or there is a reversal of crowd reactions towards a particular wrestler, a face may be turned heel in order to give that wrestler new intrigue with fans. This has worked with the careers of R-Truth in 2011, Christian in 2011, CM Punk in 2009, Edge in 2004, amongst others such as Hogan back when he helped form the nWo. These heel turns allowed these guys to change their character enough so that they could create greater interest.

With that said; however, I'm starting to see comments pop up all over the place, and they all generally suggest that to save someones career you NEED to turn them heel. These comments have applied to guys like Kofi and Cena, but have also been made to 'increase interest' in guys like HHH and Big Show. The problem I have with this is that if the IWC doesn't like a face, then they don't think that the casual or non-IWC fans don't care about these faces either.

I think that it's becoming very hard for the WWE to produce faces that the IWC enjoy, and alot of us dont like to give guys like Sheamus and R-Truth a chance, and think that everyone should be turned heel because turning someone is the answer to all of our problems, because suddenly it will make us like them more. I don't think that the problem is that these guys aren't good faces, I just think that the trend of the 'cool rebel' stops us who analyse every second of the product from enjoying or appreciate faces. It could also be linked to amount of 'goodie goodie' faces of the past few years.

Turning everyone heel isn't the answer to every problem that involves a face getting 'over'. The problem is that we as IWC fan don't give these stars a chance, possible because we are constantly comparing the product to the faces of previous generations, of which the product was catered to a completely different primary audience.

Also, whilst we as the IWC may not care about a face like Justin Gabriel, we sometimes forget that he may cater to casual audiences, to whom really seem to enjoy his face persona. We don't think like casual fans or kids anymore, so it's never our first instinct for us to realise that non-IWC don't critique every match second by second, and usually cheer good guys and boo the bad guys, much like we used to before we all became obsessed with booking the perfect wrestling television show. Instead it's our instinct to look at a face and think "hmmmm how could I improve them...", or, as many recent comment trends have indicated on this site "It's been five minutes and the crowd isn't in love with the guy yet. Instead of giving him a few weeks to get over, I think he should just turn heel".

Your thoughts?

i agree with the kofi point but cena has become stale as a face....and hhh and big show are way better of as heels..
and as far as the iwc is concerned i think 90%of the fans that follow wrestling oops "sports entertainment" are prt of the iwc by now and it is a collective opinion

 

[BizzarroNavarro]

But as far as Cena goes, isnt the bigger issue to the IWC how much hes shoved down our throats and the main focus of RAW? Because I dont see a heel turn changing that, I mean he would still be probably the main focus and probably even more unstoppable. But yeah I guess if anything maybe he'd be more interesting

 

[Richard Blonoff]

While I think your argument represents a vocal minority in the IWC as opposed to the entire IWC, it hits the nail on the head with that group. There is just a group out that that flat out refuses to root for faces just because they are the good guy and they think that being a heel is a magical solution to all your problems.

Now on the surface, yeah its easy to get people to dislike you. You can get some cheap heat by simply mentioning a shitty local sports team. Even unintentional stuff like accidentally mispronouncing a city name. I forget who it was as its been a few years but I was watching a show that was filmed in Indianapolis and the guy on the mic said Minneapolis. Total accident because he quickly corrected himself but he was booed the rest of the night.

You really have to work at being a good top level face though. I think the IWC appreciates a good well worked face. But As has been mentioned you have like like Bourne and Kofi who have that pleasing smile and a move set that makes it easy for casuals and kids to root for...and thats what I think the whole root of the problem is. The IWC hates when they have to sit through things that are designed to appeal to the kids and the casuals and those cookie cutter faces(even though I do root for some, especially Kofi) are designed almost solely to get the children interested and that drives the IWC wild, despite a good chunk of the IWC being 16 yr old smarks

That said to be a good heel takes work. Look at Del Rio. The guy does everything to get people to hate him and people don't so much hate him as they just wish he would go away.

 

[DirtyD79]

When I was younger, growing up in the early 90s, my favorite wrestlers were Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, and Macho Man. They were my favorites because I knew everytime they stepped in the ring I'd get a show.

I remember watching a pay-per-view with a friend when I was probably about 10 with Shawn Michaels vs Brett Hart. My friend informed me, that I shouldn't like Michaels because he's the "bad guy", but that didn't matter for me.

Same here. To me I often enjoyed the bad guys in any form of entertainment more than the good guys as a kid. I dunno maybe it's `cause I was the kid who rode his bikes and skateboards without a helmet, nah I'm an 80s kid everybody did that back then. Seriously though to me a lot of times the bad guys just seemed cooler than the good guys. The bad guys got the cool outfits the cool basesand stuff whereas the good guys just often looked bland or came across too preachy beating you over the head with morals. Or they always just seemed like dopes falling for every single trick the villains pulled.

Wrestling to me was no different. I never bought into the whole good guys versus bad guys thing, I've always looked at it as who entertains me? I don't want to be preached to, I want to be entertained.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

I get what your saying and I agree. But it's simple really, the IWC hates almost all current faces because ever since the PG Era every face has been a sellout and just plays to the children. Not since Hogan has anyone liked anyone the was "establishment"

 

[Headman]

The thing about cena is, even if he went heel, he would still sell tons of merchandise and tickets if not more, hulk hogan did, the rock did it, and austin. I think what we want more than anything is too see cena do something different, its so aggravating watching his old matches and seeing how good he was, to the terrible matches he produces now. Turning a heel to a face and a face to a heel is not the solution to everything true, given that us fans dont seem to ever be satisfied i think they should just focus on evolving their superstars rather than just turning their crowd reaction.

Hogan, Austin and Rock made money as heels in a completely different age. First, when Austin would go heel the WWE still had the Rock and vice versa. The WWE does not have the luxary of having a second mega star such as Cena to replace him and if they did the internet fans would hate him too. Hulk Hogan virtually created the anti-hero or cool heel in wrestling Or atleast co-invented it with Austin. The nWo is the first time I can think of where heel merch was actually hot. I don't think this would be the case for Cena, because pretty sure that the people who hate him now are not going to rush out and buy a Cena shirt just because he turns heel. I am however sure that the make a wish foundation will lose it's most requested personality, casual fans won't want his merch because they don't support heels like smarks do, and the same people who are annoyed ith super cena will still be unhappy because Cena will still be dominating the shows but as a heel instead of a face. There really isn't an obvious upside to turning Cena heel.

 

[BigThunder]

During the classic era, I always went for the techncal wrestlers, face or heel. So, Savage, DiBiase, Steamboat, Bret, the Horsemen, and the Midnight Express. Jake wasn't the greatest technical wrestler, but as a ring psychologist, he had me eating out of his hand, heel or face, Andre I always liked, and given that I disliked Hogan, I always rooted for him in the feud. Seeing him job to the Ultimate Tasslehead in thirty seconds nearly broke my heart. HBK was too obnoxious for me to like: I didn't change my mind about him until about 2007 or 2008.

It isn't the face or heel that grabs me, but the wrestler's personality. Turning heel isn't and shouldn't always be the answer to a so-called stale gimmick. As far as I'm concerned, Cena's fine where he is: I'm not an adolescent anymore, and I don't need everyone to be "edgy" or "badass" to enjoy their performance.