Heel Logjam

[shattered dreams]

I hear a lot about how great the youth movement is and how all these guys are about to be established main eventers but I do not get how it is going to work on raw. Miz, Sheamus, Barrett and CM Punk are all heels. I do not think any of these guys would make much of a face except Punk and it would seem a shame to change his character. So my question is how do you establish 4 main event heels on the same show at the same time? To me that seems like an impossible thing to do. Further problematic is that by stalling any one of those guys you risk losing the work that has been put into the character. So how do people think WWE plans on working this out?

 

[Ferbian]

The answer is pretty obvious - You don't need to.

Sheamus is already fairly established on the top of the card. He's a good heat magnet, and he has already 2 world titles on his resume. He's believable in terms of what can be accomplished for him in the main event, and he could easily go on and win another world title if he challenged for it again.

CM Punk is one guy which I don't believe is going anywhere in the RAW card right now, or in the future. First of all he's injured, so he's just gonna be off the wrestling part of the show for a few weeks to a few months. Besides, he won't be going very far in the RAW card with the number of people in the main event. He's the guy who will most likely get shuffled around in the upper mid-card. Also there was supposedly scheduled a feud between him and Daniel Bryan before he got injured, which would mean he's most likely gonna spend his time with that.

Wade Barrett is already getting around to feuding with Randy Orton, getting established slowly as a firm main event act. Yet he's not completely there yet, which is what he can spend the next few Pay Per Views establishing. And of course you cannot discredit the fact that should Miz try to cash in his Money in the Bank, well then there's possibly a returning John Cena at some point or another. He could possibly also feud with a returning Triple H

Which brings me to Miz. Like I mentioned, all it would take is him cashing in his Money in the Bank. He has time to feud with Randy Orton then, while Wade Barrett is send to shuffle around with one of the other main event faces (Triple H or John Cena). This leaves Randy and Miz the opportunity to feud for themselves, and establish Miz in the process.

 

[shattered dreams]

The problem with your suggestion for me is that by the time you have your Barrett and Miz scenario play out plus the requisite followups for both of them to not make it swagger flukes then that is a long time for Sheamus to do something else. He basically takes the CM Punk fall from grace route then. Leave Punk out of it if you want. It is unfortunate but I guess a reality that he will be further midcarded. How do you keep momentum behind three heels needing to stay in the title picture for establishment purposes? Especially when it is not like they are going to have heel champs year round.I already commented on sheamus, if Barrett leaves the title picture after nexus runs its course then it kills much of what they did for him and if Miz only has a quick cash in and that is it then it gets him nowhere.

 

[Ferbian]

The problem with your suggestion for me is that by the time you have your Barrett and Miz scenario play out plus the requisite followups for both of them to not make it swagger flukes then that is a long time for Sheamus to do something else. He basically takes the CM Punk fall from grace route then.

I see your point in terms of leaving Sheamus out perhaps for too long. Yet it is completely doable. There's 2 ways of achieving it. Considering the fact that Sheamus right now seems to be busy with John Morrison, who will be doing that for at least one or two Pay Per Views to go. Which means that we're around TLC / Royal Rumble by the end of this feud. That means he's been more than busy pushing someone upwards, and still looking like a strong main eventer.

And there's still the Triple H return feud to be dealt with. There's nothing saying that John Cena vs Wade Barrett won't be the definite final answer to Barrett's occupation after his Randy Orton feud dies down. And Triple H vs Sheamus still needs to be finished. Triple H vs Sheamus would then most likely carry onto another Wrestlemania / Extreme Rules match, who knows, but it will continue for a bit. After that, we've got the draft. Send Sheamus to Smackdown and you got a problem solved - Sheamus vs Undertaker / Big Show / Rey Mysterio / Edge.

Or just keep him around and launch him into the title picture again. It all requires though that Miz or Wade gets a title reign that lasts long enough. Which would be doable by giving the belt to Wade or Miz around TLC / Royal Rumble where Sheamus returns to being busy with Triple H, or still is busy with John Morrison.

Leave Punk out of it if you want. It is unfortunate but I guess a reality that he will be further midcarded.

It's sadly true. There's a lot of big stuff going on there is much bigger than Punk on RAW. Nexus is on a roll, and Punk takes a back seat to it. That's why I didn't like him being drafted in the beginning.

How do you keep momentum behind three heels needing to stay in the title picture for establishment purposes? Especially when it is not like they are going to have heel champs year round.I already commented on sheamus, if Barrett leaves the title picture after nexus runs its course then it kills much of what they did for him and if Miz only has a quick cash in and that is it then it gets him nowhere.

They don't need to be in the title picture for establishment purposes. The biggest example of this is Undertaker, who remained relevant and established fairly well after his World title reign in the early 90's.

Establishment can easily be done through a main event non-title feud. Let's say Miz is the champion after TLC, and he retains the belt all the way to Wrestlemania, there's no failure there in terms of the Swagger reign if they let him retain properly. As well as there's no problem with in the meantime having John Cena vs Wade Barrett, which establishes Wade more than enough if he continues to decimate John, or if he goes on to decimate Triple H for a little while. Which would leave John Cena vs Miz to be doable at least once or twice leading into Wrestlemania.

It might seem confusing, but there's a decent amount of available main event guys that will be able to shuffle around to the various people and establish all 3 of them, due to Punk being out for a fair while most likely, and will return to feud with Daniel Bryan most likely.

 

[Alastor]

I don't understand the problem here. WWE spent the first half of the year establishing Sheamus as a creditable main event heel. He went toe to toe with HHH, Cena, and Orton for the most part of the push. Compare the crowd's impression of him at the start of the year to now. He went from the guy that nobody can take seriously to a legit big man. He is already established and is going down the card to either refresh the main event scene or to attempt to pull Morrison up the card. A returning HHH to feud with will let the spotlight shine on him again as well.

While Sheamus was the focus for early 2010, the second half of the year the push was on Barrett. He is seen as a legitimate heel because he is the leader of a fraction. Ability wise they have not booked him as being as powerful as Sheamus but I prefer it that way. A strong wrestler leading a strong fraction would make it harder for WWE to explain why he cannot win the championship. And awarding Barrett a championship now is a risky move since his in-ring talent is not there yet. He will most probably move down the card after his push which will probably when Nexus is broken up. He can spend the next couple of months feuding with any left over Nexus members on the roster before they decide who he should face next.

Miz will be the next one WWE will focus on for the early part of 2011 with the money in the bank. As long as they give him more time on the mic than in the ring he is safe.

Punk is going to take over Jericho's role as the guy that can feud with anyone on the card. He has 3 championship reigns so can be billed as a creditable main event guy. Because of his lack of size, he can also be booked in creditable feuds with people lower down the card.

 

[WJDwjdWJDwjd]

Two of the heels you mentioned have really no problem switching from mid card to main event level card. Sheamus and CM Punk are always believable in any card. The Miz is not exactly main event yet. He is on the cusp as we speak. He is a future champion and that is the reality of it. Maybe I should recognize him as full fledged main eventer, but I really believe there are a few more things that must happen for him to be up there with guys like Cena, Orton and even Barrett. What I'm saying is, he needs a high profile feud and to eventually main event a PPV in that feud.

Punk and Sheamus' respective statuses remind me of how Jericho has been his entire career; They can be placed anywhere on the card and no matter when they have to, they can be called up and utilized as legitimate main event talents. Sure they are all very high caliber talents, but not all of them need the spotlight. Sheamus, CM Punk (when he comes back), Barrett and Miz are perfect as the top heels right now. I don't see a log jam whatsoever.

 

[shattered dreams]

It is pretty interesting to look at the "youth movements" clear preference for the fast risers to be heel. I'd assume that is due to the believability factor. Some unknown comes out of nowhere so of course he is going to need to be booked weaker than those that have been around. So the only way to have them gain the necessary "victories" is to have some heel methods involved. The problem with that is when booked weak the title is just a prop to magically get them over. Once they lose it, everything they had is gone. They fall back to a more appropriate spot, but it is a double whammy because they knocked someone down to that level in the process, and possibly out of the company as veterans get tired of the disrespect or have their characters ruined. Until they actively try and push a new face into the title scene I'll remain skeptical of the current WWE process.

I find it bemusing that people think Sheamus is a finished product already. He hasn't even been in the WWE a year and a half yet and it has been less than a year since he had his first title reign. The IWC might have accepted him but there are plenty of people that probably barely know who he is. It is also interesting that Sheamus is the one semi-success story and not so coincidentally is the only one they have given some legitimate success to in the ring. It goes back to what I talked about in the first paragraph. It is not a youth movement until you actually push these young guys over someone in the ring. "Winning" doesn't get the job done automatically, especially when they are kept at the cusp in mass.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

You've got a fair point SD. Young guys are pushed as heels. But that is because pushing them as faces is a bad alternative.

There have been quite a few guys who have been pushed as faces from the get go. Two examples are Rocky Miavia and Randy Orton. Well their initial push failed to the extent that people wanted them dead and they had to turn heel which led to their eventual success.

Faces are generally generic in nature. As heels you have a lot more opportunity to develop a character and get people interested in it. Then depending on the level of interest the crowd has in the wrestler he is turned. Also having young guys as heels is more believable than having them as faces.

I think that the guys you mentioned like say Miz, Punk and Sheamus will be turned face at some point in their career. But it is not like there is a lack of main event faces in WWE currently. When a vacancy arises I'm sure these youngsters are good enough to rise to the occasion.

 

[kris8524]

The thing is that we need more of a mid-card scene. The mid-cardders I.E US and IC belts have always had the best wrestling aside from the time the likes of bret hart and people like him carried the heavy weight title. I just wish the superstars would quite trying to hurry into the main event. Right now it would be gret to have sheamus a top heel in the midcard scene, maybe not even goin for the US title. Then, bring back pink and i belive he and Bryan can put on some show stealing matches. Let the Miz finally go to the main event scene along with barret.

There used to be some awsome stories in the midcard that did not center around the title picture. Like Macho man and jake roberts. I think we need to just accepet wrestlers for what they r doing.

Mr. Perferct should have been a champ yes, but watching during the time he wrestled I would not have "liked" him as a champ, he did great for what he was maybe the best midcarder of all time.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

I think the biggest reason there are so many heels is because it is so hard to find a guy who is genuinely likable. I am not talking about the MOVEZ~! he does or how good he is on the stick, but his aura just makes you want to like the guy. There are way too many guys who flop as a face because they aren't sympathetic at all. Look at John Morrison. He does the flips and shit, but when he is getting his head kicked in, do you want to see him try and come back from it?

One heel on Raw that is totally a likable guy is Justin Gabriel. He got over pretty decently on NXT, despite bombing on the mic.

*edit*

Also, the WWE has always been the meat machine for their top guys. Their top guys are always faces.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

This goes back to an earlier post I made, in essence the face heel thing is kind of moot... Certain guys "look" right in certain roles... back in the day guys like Bossman, Jake, Earthquake could straddle the face/heel line and move up and down the card but never "looked right" with a title. Their gimmicks were strong enough that they didn't need one to get over... Right now in WWE you have a lot of guys who don't look right with titles, as face or heel but a situation where success is distorted as titles are more props than actual achievments...

Guys like Gabriel are good for the Tag Team scene, could have been IC contenders in "Old School" WWF but would likely never have made it... Guys like Seamus or Barrett would have been pushed just as they have been... he's nowhere near finished article but compared to where guys like Warrior, Ludvig Borga or Tatanka who WWE flirted with these type pushes for, he is light years ahead...

 

[shattered dreams]

You've got a fair point SD. Young guys are pushed as heels. But that is because pushing them as faces is a bad alternative.

Faces are generally generic in nature. As heels you have a lot more opportunity to develop a character and get people interested in it. Then depending on the level of interest the crowd has in the wrestler he is turned. Also having young guys as heels is more believable than having them as faces.

The problem is why praise a youth movement when they "have" to be heel. Wouldn't that be a poor strategy since you end up with exactly what I am talking about? That being too many guys for one spot and none for another. If you are saying faces need to be more seasoned competitors then an excessive youth movement would seem to be a poor choice for an overall policy. My problem with all these guys being heels is that it does not necessarily help them build an audience. Heels are supposed to be disliked. How do you build up a fanbase while trying to be disliked?

But it is not like there is a lack of main event faces in WWE currently.

Actually if Cena sells this fired thing while Taker is out then Orton is about all that is left unless Big show counts, right?

 

[Rayne]

My problem with all these guys being heels is that it does not necessarily help them build an audience. Heels are supposed to be disliked. How do you build up a fanbase while trying to be disliked?

It's not about being liked or disliked, it's about whether people pay attention to you or not. Professional wrestling fans, as a whole, are pretty stupid and quick to forget what happened a couple of months ago. (No, Reader, I'm not referring to you.) So long as people are aware of the performers presence, you can do just about anything with him.

This is how you can take a guy who spends the better part of two years kicking women and beating up old people, and turn him into your top face because his rookie stable mates (who weeks beforehand were his bitch lackeys) are picking on him.

If a guy gets over as a heel, you can get him over as a face. It's just much, much easier to initially get people over as a heel.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

The problem is why praise a youth movement when they "have" to be heel. Wouldn't that be a poor strategy since you end up with exactly what I am talking about? That being too many guys for one spot and none for another. If you are saying faces need to be more seasoned competitors then an excessive youth movement would seem to be a poor choice for an overall policy. My problem with all these guys being heels is that it does not necessarily help them build an audience. Heels are supposed to be disliked. How do you build up a fanbase while trying to be disliked?

Like Rayne said and I put it in my OP that heels are just easier to get over. As heels wrestlers have more of a chance to develop a character and get the crowd interested in them. Once this heel wrestler reaches a certain level of infamy then he is considered to be in line for a face turn. It does not mean that if they are heels now that they will be heels all the time.

Actually if Cena sells this fired thing while Taker is out then Orton is about all that is left unless Big show counts, right?

I hope you do not think Cena won't be an active part of the show because he will. Taker is out but will return and we have Edge, Mysterio, Orton and a returning Triple H who will, in all probability, come back as a face. How many more faces do you need?

 

[LitasRevenge79]

If a guy gets over as a heel, you can get him over as a face. It's just much, much easier to initially get people over as a heel.

I am totally with Rayne on this one. I don't think its really about a youth movement. Its about getting people their audience, a fan base. You look at HHH, Edge, Batista, Jericho, Christian, Big Show, Kurt Angle, John Morrison, CM Punk, they all have their solid ground audience. No matter whether they are heel or face, its all about building a reputation for them. People will gravitate to the personality, and the character this person is building. Even when the stars are being heel/face, and you hear the crowd going crazy for them, you know its because WWE spent the time and effort to work on getting them their time and efforts in the ring noticed. Why else would there be merchandise flying off the shelves when half of the stars are supposed to be bad? People will still buy what they like. Whether its Nexus, Sheamus, Miz, or whoever, its not about the youth movement, its about who WWE believes in. When someone in the power sees something in one of the newer people, they wouldn't be investing all this time and money in the angles if they didn't see something special in that wrestler. Hell, I am someone who thrives on the bad guys, if not for the sheer entertainment values, but because of the fact that you KNOW they will also bring out the best in the faces to fight even harder.

 

[sam winchester 29]

I think the WWE is doing a terrble job right now. Of cours the new guys are going to be heels, bu it seems like they are trying to get rid of all te faces. On Raw, the only faces you have left are Orton, R Truth and Jomo. The only one who can carry RAW is Orton, but he needs to talk more. I hope Triple H comes back soon, just to give the younger guys away from the title scene for a while longer. These new guys coming in all seem to want to be at the top on their first day and feel entitled to it. So, they try to end the careers of all the good guys and we're left with no one to cheer for. If this continues, the WWE's future may look bleak indeed.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I have no problem with the "heel logjam" at the moment. In another thread, the question was posed, who do you prefer, heels or faces, and the overwhelming winner in my opinion was the heels. I'm not necessarily that the wrestlezone faithful adequately represents the opinions of the average casual wrestling fan or even the IWC in general, but if we are indicative of how people feel about professional wrestling at the moment, then it would make sense to me to be a little heel-heavy at the moment. Plus, the two biggest names in the WWE right now are Randy Orton and John Cena (once he is "re-hired"). These names are huge names and in and of themselves can offset a lot of the heels. Plus we have Daniel Bryan and John Morrison in face roles, both of whom are up and coming and are about to burst into the main event in my opinion.

A lot of the heels are still pretty green. Sheamus and the Nexus, including Wade Barrett, have not been around for that long yet. I guess in relative terms the Miz really hasn't been yet either, although he has established himself for a whiole now and is legitimate. With their inexperience, you need greater numbers as well. Quantity versus quality to some degree.

Plus, if things do get slanted too much in the heel direction, a face turn or two could quickly solve this problem anyway.

At the moment, WWE is doing a tremendous job and I see little to criticize at the moment. Although I am certain that we will all do so anyway.