Heel, Face, Heel, Face... make up your effing mind.

[shafe_41]

I don't think anybody could ever find a wrestling fan that doesn't love a great and/or unexpected heel/face turn every now and again. I know I love a great surprise from time to time. But sometimes it's just waaaay too much. It especially gets on my nerves when creative or somebody can't make up their mind which role somebody or some tag team is going to play. Now here's where everything opens up for discussion. Which superstar(s) bothered you the most with their constant face/heel turns? For me, there's only a couple that really bug me.

The Dudleyz- I have never seen a tag team or singles superstar switch from heel to face and back again more times than these two. I love the Dudleyz just as much as the next fan because they always entertain, have a great finisher, and gave us some of the most memorable moments in WM history with their TLC matches and just generally put on great matches. For those who know WM history or have the WM Anthology, watch each one the Dudleyz are in and I seriously think that each WM they're involved in alternates with them being heel/face/heel...etc until they were no longer with the company. I'm sure there were even some quick turns in between Manias somewhere. But the way these guys switch is rediculous. They have even done the same thing in TNA countless times. Seriously Dudleyz/creative, pick a side and stick with it.

The singles wrestler that bugs me the most with this...

Y2J Chris Jericho- Now let me just start off by saying I effing love Jericho. He's one of my top 10 favorites of all time. The man NEVER fails to entertain. He's just that damn good and nobody can deny that. But I do wish that he/creative would just keep a damn side for a year or more. Now I realize match setups and combinations wear thin when people aren't changing from face/heel and such now and again. But Jericho has switched so many times I lost count. I remember him being The Lion Heart in WCW then they switched him heel I believe for the duration of his WCW run which is where he shined. His "Man of 1004 Holds" bit... that was priceless. His feud with Mysterio where he called him Ron, Ralphus, all classic heel Jericho moments. Then when he hit WWE, I seriously lost count. He debuted heel, I know turned face at least once, but was "fired" by losing to Cena as a heel, re-debuted face, and now is heel. God knows how many other times in his first WWE run he switched. I loved him, but the constant switching was a little much.

What other constant turns bothered the rest of you?

 

[pyrusane]

I think Kane would be a perfect example of this. He literally changes from one week to the next right now. It all depends on who his opponent is at the time. I think he is officially considered a heel right now, but if he happens to be placed in a match against another heel then he gets the face pop.

I think this is really a symptom of the current state of wrestling. In the old days it was simple...you were a face, or you were a heel. Plain and simple. And switching from one side to the other was shocking, even for a mid-carder or lower. Hell, HBK jump-started his entire career by throwing Marty Janetty through the barbershop window, and they were a mid-card tag team at the time.

These days, the line between heel and face has been blurred by the cool heel. Faces do heelish things and the crowd loves it, heels cut cool promos and get turned...There are no true good guys and bad guys, although some do play the part better than others. Jericho, along with Orton and Edge, are really good at making the crowd hate them because of the things they say and the actions they take. On the other hand, the pure face, John Cena, gets widely panned because he isn't believable in the modern day era. We talk about his five moves of doom and his lack of ability, but the real reason so many people dislike him is because he is too much of a face. It seems like a caricature of reality, when in fact that exact character would have been as over in the 80s as Hogan, maybe even more so (gasp).

Just my two cents...

 

[kamakazii699]

I think Kane would be a perfect example of this. He literally changes from one week to the next right now. It all depends on who his opponent is at the time. I think he is officially considered a heel right now, but if he happens to be placed in a match against another heel then he gets the face pop.

yeah Kane changes heaps. but i think hes a face atm give it 2 weeks and he'll change

 

[Australian Punk]

I agree kane changes every 2 weeks, but one that really bugged me was the rock. He changed like every month in the attitude era(probably only because he and Austin were always fueding). One minute he was out there as a face telling jabronies to get there ass out here and then the next week he was a heel alligning himself with the coaperation.

 

[Wavy Crockett]

Yeah I Don't Even Know What Kane Is At The Moment? I'm assuming he's a heel? And In All Fairness 2 The Dudleys They Were More Tweeners Than Face Or Heels.

 

[Slowdude]

Big Show

He goes from face to heel every couple of weeks. Over the past year I think he started as a heel at NWO 08. Due to crowd reaction turned face at WM24. Turned heel by attacking taker at Unforgiven I think. Turned face again (I think) by attacking edge before NWO 09 (might not of been a face turn though) and turned heel (though he might of still been heel) after NWO 09

Seriously, he goes Face - Heel with ease, pretty much the same case as Kane

 

[finneycom1]

If you dont like heel/face turns, then dont watch TNA. I dont catch TNA every week that it is on, but I have tried to catch it on 2 or 3 consecutive weeks that it is on, and it is damn near impossible to know who is a face and heel. Terrible, terrible writing on TNA's part. I agree with the aforementioned Dudley's heel/face, heel/face. I dont ever know what they are when I turn that program on.

 

[Chris in SC]

I read an interview with Triple H that said he'd rather be a heel, but the fans turned him. He said 'I'd be doing all of these horrible things and they'd be cheering me' or something to that effect.

With the rise of the IWC and the death of kayfabe, people no longer sheepishly cheer faces and boo heels. The fan cheers the talented ones regardless of face/heel.

Examples were evident at Wrestlemania where a lot of the crowd was cheering Orton and booing Triple H. Fans turned Triple H face, and now we're slowly turning him heel. And we won't get started on the hayt for Cena despite his uber-faceness.

Jericho is supposed to be a heel, but he's quite popular as well. Same with Edge. Fans react to performers now, not characters.

It seems that a heel character allows for a greater freedom of expression among performers, maybe that's why it seems more heels are popular than faces lately.

 

[Banx21]

i got one mr vince mcmahon....hes been face as of late but everytime hed return for a raw ud never know if hed b a heel or face it just depend who he is goin after...he was a heel against finlay came bac n was a face against orton....and i agree with the kane bigshow ordeal everytime i watch it they r switching bac n forth n what about the great khal he has been face as f late but in his face run he always ends up beating down a face every once in awhile...i could go on n on but ill end it with santino the crowd loves him ngoes nuts forhim but when he does have matches he is facing "faces" so idk

 

[LokiCobain]

If you dont like heel/face turns, then dont watch TNA. I dont catch TNA every week that it is on, but I have tried to catch it on 2 or 3 consecutive weeks that it is on, and it is damn near impossible to know who is a face and heel. Terrible, terrible writing on TNA's part. I agree with the aforementioned Dudley's heel/face, heel/face. I dont ever know what they are when I turn that program on.

I actually think it's fantastic and intelligent writing on TNA's part. You find yourself torn between the guys you "know" are the good guys (Front Line) and the guys you "know" are the heels (MEM). It's a more realistic approach. In reality, no one is "all good" or "all bad", and even if you're a bad person, you can still make rationally good points, while if you're a good person, you can still snap.

What they're doing with Sheik Abdul Bashir is much better due to the fact that it's a guy who loves America, but hates Americans. He loves what America stands for, but the ways Americans take it for granted is disgusting. For Matt Morgan, he and Abyss were a face tag team, but seriously, if your opponent was the reason for the loss week after week, a true face would never get angry about it, but a real person would.

WWE seems to slowly be switching to this model. There are more and more likable heels and hatable faces. At the end of the day the storyline is just a storyline, and it comes to the match. Who was the heel in Taker vs Shawn? Better question: Who cared?

The world isn't set up as "good" and "evil", it's more complex, and I'm glad that TNA, and WWE, have started moving away from this Hollywood view of reality. It keeps everything interesting. It started in the Attitude Era, and since the eccentric characters like DX, nWo, and Stone Cold are gone, we're left with a blurry, gray area. This is the reason Randy Orton and Edge are thriving. You hate (or love I suppose) Orton for attacking the McMahon family, but then he twists it by going back to when he was in Evolution and showed that it's all because HHH was selfish. It almost justifies his action and instead of HHH playing the savior, you can almost blame him.

Similarly, to defend TNA while staying on topic, even if they're not up to par with WWE, they can't be all bad, and it's irresponsible to not give them credit on presupposed biases.

 

[finneycom1]

I actually think it's fantastic and intelligent writing on TNA's part. You find yourself torn between the guys you "know" are the good guys (Front Line) and the guys you "know" are the heels (MEM). It's a more realistic approach. In reality, no one is "all good" or "all bad", and even if you're a bad person, you can still make rationally good points, while if you're a good person, you can still snap.

What they're doing with Sheik Abdul Bashir is much better due to the fact that it's a guy who loves America, but hates Americans. He loves what America stands for, but the ways Americans take it for granted is disgusting. For Matt Morgan, he and Abyss were a face tag team, but seriously, if your opponent was the reason for the loss week after week, a true face would never get angry about it, but a real person would.

WWE seems to slowly be switching to this model. There are more and more likable heels and hatable faces. At the end of the day the storyline is just a storyline, and it comes to the match. Who was the heel in Taker vs Shawn? Better question: Who cared?

The world isn't set up as "good" and "evil", it's more complex, and I'm glad that TNA, and WWE, have started moving away from this Hollywood view of reality. It keeps everything interesting. It started in the Attitude Era, and since the eccentric characters like DX, nWo, and Stone Cold are gone, we're left with a blurry, gray area. This is the reason Randy Orton and Edge are thriving. You hate (or love I suppose) Orton for attacking the McMahon family, but then he twists it by going back to when he was in Evolution and showed that it's all because HHH was selfish. It almost justifies his action and instead of HHH playing the savior, you can almost blame him.

Similarly, to defend TNA while staying on topic, even if they're not up to par with WWE, they can't be all bad, and it's irresponsible to not give them credit on presupposed biases.

I totally see where you are coming from. You have a very valid point. I think that when I posted that, I was trying to be more critical of TNA's overall writing and thier storylines, as opposed to, their heel/face character portrayal.

 

[aljnxh]

The process is simple (this applies for 90% of the time):

1. The superstar debuts as a face, doesn't get that much of a pop.

2. Make him into a mid card, eother put him with a tag team or have him go after the IC or US title.

3. Turn heel.

4. Examine: Did he do better as a heel or face?

5. Whatever it is, they turn him it until the end of his career.

Y2J turns WAY too much, half his career he was a heel. When he came back, what was he, a face for 7, 8 months? At least a year you should be a face, especially when you return. I saw his face persona starting to wear off near Backlash.

I never liked Big Show. Heel or face, I will never like him. He ruins the Royal Rumble every year. Comes in, eliminates 10 guys while ten more guys get him over. I mean, there's no excitement to it. He takes people and just throws them over. Its not like someones going for a clothesline and the guy ducks and pulls down the ropes as he falls out of the ring. No, it will never be like that for Big Show. Even without my opnion, he was a face for like what, 7 months after returning?

WTF?

 

[Tyler L]

What they're doing with Sheik Abdul Bashir is much better due to the fact that it's a guy who loves America, but hates Americans. He loves what America stands for, but the ways Americans take it for granted is disgusting. For Matt Morgan, he and Abyss were a face tag team, but seriously, if your opponent was the reason for the loss week after week, a true face would never get angry about it, but a real person would.

WWE seems to slowly be switching to this model. There are more and more likable heels and hatable faces. At the end of the day the storyline is just a storyline, and it comes to the match. Who was the heel in Taker vs Shawn? Better question: Who cared?

The world isn't set up as "good" and "evil", it's more complex, and I'm glad that TNA, and WWE, have started moving away from this Hollywood view of reality. It keeps everything interesting. It started in the Attitude Era, and since the eccentric characters like DX, nWo, and Stone Cold are gone, we're left with a blurry, gray area. This is the reason Randy Orton and Edge are thriving. You hate (or love I suppose) Orton for attacking the McMahon family, but then he twists it by going back to when he was in Evolution and showed that it's all because HHH was selfish. It almost justifies his action and instead of HHH playing the savior, you can almost blame him.

This. It is starting to become more like real life. Sometimes people are jerks but you can't help but like them. I know a lot of people who hate others because they never do anything wrong. This is why I think people hate Cena and love Edge and Orton because they are so damn cool and talented at what they do.

 

[Doctor_What]

I think that Ricky Steamboat raised this point with his shoot/promo on Y2J when he basicaly told Y2J that he turns too often. There are very few stars that havnt turned 1 way or the other in there careers if I remember rightly even Ted Diabiase turned face later in his career!

Right now though I am confused on Kane 1 week he's teaming with heels the next he's against them. I think he's meant to be a tweener but it isnt working. Sting also gets on my nerves he's basicaly a babyface in a heel stable.

 

[hollowpoint]

I do agree with the face/heel turns happening waaaay too often. I like the tweeners. The fact that people hate Cena because he is too much of a face is HILARIOUS to me. I love the fact that he does what he does no matter the reaction. Like him or not he stays true to the character. It's almost believable that it's really him! The match between him and Batista a while back, they were both faces, but they beat the crap out of each other. That's why I like how it is now. The whole good vs. bad is somewhat scewed now. It's okay to boo a face and at the same time, it's cool to cheer for a heel.

 

[bigwayne3000]

i have to agree with whoever brought up TNA. TNA is horrible but yet idk why but i find myself still watching it. The writing is worse and more illogical than WWE. TNA doesnt define faces/heels very well if at all. Look at Sting, why is he still playing to the crowd every damn week when hes aligned with the top "heels" in TNA? he needs to stop half a$sing this and go full fledged heel. same thing with the MCMG when they were around. now the Foley angle doesnt make any sense either. he tries so ahrd to get rid of the MEM and now all of a sudden wants to keep them around? idk how they have stayed on TV for so long with such poor writing and storylines. sorry to get off topic. i dont think Y2J has had too many turns as his turns are usually pretty spread out. the time he was "fired" by WWE he was a heel for a few yrs i think. the one person whose in need of a desperate turn as hes bitterly stale is Cena. i understand the kids love him but people also loved the rock when he joined the corporation. people loved Stone Cold when they turned him heel and joined the alliance. i dont understand why they dont turn Cena. merchandising sales going down wont be very significant if at all if he goes heel.

 

[LokiCobain]

i have to agree with whoever brought up TNA. TNA is horrible but yet idk why but i find myself still watching it. The writing is worse and more illogical than WWE. TNA doesnt define faces/heels very well if at all. Look at Sting, why is he still playing to the crowd every damn week when hes aligned with the top "heels" in TNA? he needs to stop half a$sing this and go full fledged heel. same thing with the MCMG when they were around. now the Foley angle doesnt make any sense either. he tries so ahrd to get rid of the MEM and now all of a sudden wants to keep them around? idk how they have stayed on TV for so long with such poor writing and storylines.

Read my response which is only a few posts before this.

In a nutshell, since reading may be difficult, it's a more realistic approach to storytelling. The MEM is the heel stable, yet Sting is a face, and Front Line is the face stable, yet Samoa Joe is running around threatening to kill everyone. Sting isn't a heel because he's cocky like Angle, he's in MEM because the young guys had no respect for the veterans. Nash isn't a real heel either. Neither of them insult the audience like the cliche way heels are supposed to get over. The point of it is that you have to actually think, instead of it being "Yay America vs Boo Russian". It's not that black and white in real life, so there's no reason why TNA or WWE have to make it that way (yes, WWE also.)

 

[sicmcnasti]

I have to agree with the Jericho one, and I kind of made a break-down for his WWE career:
Debut Aug. 1999 - heel
fall of 1999 - face turn/somewhat tweener
He remained face until late 2001 when he started becoming jealous of The Rock during the Invasion angle and turned heel when he attacked The Rock with a chair at Survivor Series. Feuded with the returning Triple H during early 2002.
Became more of a tweener with the whole Christian tag team/crush on Trish during early '03, turned face after Christian/Trish turned on him. Remained face until 04 when he feuded with Cena, ultimately was "fired". Came back face in '07, then turned heel last summer.
Thats 7 turns total.

Kane I would consider a tweener now.
And for the record, I think Triple H turns too much- not as much in quantity as much as it is quality. He's heel, we cheer for him, he's face we're kind of meh but he might as well be face because he's fought and beat up every heel there and it's always ridiculous to me to see him fighting the Big Show one month and two months later they're best of buddies. I would rather him remain a face for the rest of his career with the heel tactics.

 

[Kennedy'sMicDrop]

I believe that there should be more tweeners.

In everyday life, there are days that I feel like being the face, and days I feel like being a heel. Sometimes I want to flip off my boss, other times I like working with her to get something accomplished. There are coworkers that I get along with some days and other days I want to throw them through a table. Now, of course there are some people I will always like, and others I will always hate, but that's what makes me a tweener and I think if we are going to believe these "characters" in Sports Entertainment, we need them as much like ourselves as possible.

Anyone else agree?

 

[MrBungle19]

The problem most wrestlers have in staying heel of face is they let the audience stroke their ego too much. If you don't understand what I mean I'll give you an example from a few years back.

Jericho and Michaels were feuding and they were in Montreal, just prior to or just after their match at Wrestlemania 19. Even though Shawn was Face and Y2J was heel during this feud, they were in Montreal, so for obvious reasons Jericho was getting pops and Shawn was getting booed out of the building.

Now Jericho could've done what most guys do now, and that's continue to hammer Shawn about screwing Bret and continue to get cheered, but unlike most Jericho knows that isn't his job. So after Shawn challenges him to a match, instead of accepting and giving the crowd what they want, he makes a couple of quick jibes about how Montreal doesn't deserve a match of that calibre and he'll face Shawn the week after when Raw goes to California. This immedietely turns the crowd on Jericho, while Shawn is allowed to play the face in the one place where they hate him no matter what.

Anyone else in that situation would roll with the audience and completely emasculate the face character of their opponent, and then complain later about having to 'turn', ruining their heel run. It's not that hard to stay heel if you resist the temptation to be 'cool' and do what the audience tells you.

If you want to stay heel, leave your ego at the door, be a coward and a blowhard, and you'll be hated.

 

[Decarow]

I think Kurt Angle is the biggest flip flop. As a face he's America's Hero, and as a heel he's just an ass. And he's always changing.

 

[GameOver]

Wrestling has been like that for a decade. Ever since Hogan went heel and the birth of the Attitude era eryone is more or less grey. Back in the day it was every 3 yrs you could guarentee someone would turn unless ofcourse they were mega over in that role they were at the time.

kane/Undertaker are both grey well not so much the Undertaker in a long time but Kane is grey

In reality people why would someone play to the fans forever when ya know that they could turn on ya in a heartbeat rather you would go with what would best get you to the top at the time. It's no different in a standard work place, noone really gives a shit about what other people think, aslong as they are getting paid and would happily walk over someone if it meant getting further ahead.

Matt Hardy's role atm is a prime example he played the happy guy, then Jeff woosed out so he got angry, he converts back then noone gives a shit so he sees the light and lashes out, and who knows once he gets his recognition he'll probably go face again in a few yrs.

Thus art imitates life.

The world is a lonely horrible place, noone gives a shit about anyone or can count on anyone but themselves which is what wrestling characters do. DTA!!!!

That talking in general ofcourse no specific rants against anyone.

 

[golden miz]

what is a heel and a face, seriously I havent seen a true wrestler that fell under these classifications since the additude era. I have to say that the constant turns of the heels going up against the heel mcmahons are realy anoying me right now. Come on randy is a heel, vince is a heel, so is stephanie, shane is idk, hhh is face (? since his heel association) and legacy is heel. Come on whos turning in a fued like this, it dosnt make sence at all. I also thin that the constant turns of the big monsters (big show, kahali, kane, etc) really anoys me too, decidewhat side their on and keep them o that side for at least more then 2 weeks