HBK Shoots On Young Guys

[JenksIX]

Some of you might have read the title and thought this thread was about hunting or ejaculating, being that HBK is involved.

Well it's neither. HBK gave a shoot interview where he had some interesting things to say. I'm not the biggest HBK fan but I think he brings up some interesting stuff in this shoot.

He doesn't mention anyone by name but thinks that the young guys lack passion and toughness. He mentions some interesting stuff which I agree with.

My opinion has always been that the older generation were better or sold better, because the guys were tougher/crazier. They were men is the simplest way I can put it. I wonder if things like "receipts" are being more and more phased out now a days and therefore, you could make a case that pro wrestling is "faker" then it was to begin with. There are benefits , but I think there is also a downside to this.

Maybe HBK was as good as he was, because he was willing to push his opponents. Other wrestlers will tell you that HBK's punches, elbows, and Super Kicks were pretty stiff. I think Terry Funk is the personification of the point I'm trying to make. Terry would want you beat the shit out of him, because he'd give some of it back and that is why he was able to put on a good show.

I always think there are pros and cons to things like this because yes, the passion and authenticity might be more real, but the health and well being of the wrestlers are more at risk(i.e. if you are getting punched/taking bumps fairly hard every night, you will probably abuse pain killers and other substances.)

Anyway, don't disagree with anything HBK said here. I like how he brought up the guys who do the "flippy, twirly things," because to some that's wrestling, but I don't see it that way and HBK points out why.

[YOUTUBE]F_Og-nEYS9Q&feature=feedu[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Pole Smoker]

i agree with what he says tbh.

 

[klunderbunker]

We were talking about this in the Board Room the other day actually.

The different between today's product and old school is that back then, the guys weren't portraying characters. They were those characters. They would be able to come up with better promos and be more convincing because they had to make themselves think differently rather than merely reading lines off a script. There's a big difference and you can see it in the characters today and of old school.

 

[Coco]

If this is in the same spirit that WWE higher ups diddle themselves over how John Morrison won't be deserving of a push until he becomes more of a neanderthal jock, I disagree completely. If those types of guys are the only people you know how to market in the year 2011, you're a relic.

 

[shattered dreams]

The lack of playing off what the crowd wants in the name of following the script is certainly an issue today. Most of the other stuff he said I'd file under antiquated beliefs.

 

[Slyfox696]

Breaking News: Older man says newer generation not as good as his generation.


News at 11.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Totally not the kind of video I was expecting/hoping for.

 

[The Crock]

I thought I'd be watching a cross between One Night in Chyna and Monday Night Raw, but that was good too.

 

[Gelgarin]

We were talking about this in the Board Room the other day actually.

The different between today's product and old school is that back then, the guys weren't portraying characters. They were those characters. They would be able to come up with better promos and be more convincing because they had to make themselves think differently rather than merely reading lines off a script. There's a big difference and you can see it in the characters today and of old school.

I don't buy this. I'm pretty certain that 20 years ago people were saying exactly the same thing.

 

[klunderbunker]

I don't think I get what you're saying.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Maybe HBK was as good as he was, because he was willing to push his opponents. Other wrestlers will tell you that HBK's punches, elbows, and Super Kicks were pretty stiff.

I have never heard anything of that sort. I have heard that HBK was a very safe worker whose punches and kicks were actually weaker than those of most other wrestlers. He is actually a lot less tough than most other wrestlers. He can bump hard, sure, but as far as I have heard he would not be able to handle the situation even a little if someone happened to shoot on him.

As for the thread itself, everyone says that their generation is the best. Maybe that is what the legends of the 60's were saying about the wrestlers of the 80's.

 

[Mac Attack]

I don't think I get what you're saying.

He's trying to make the point that 20 years ago the older generation of wrestlers in the time period said the same thing about the newer generation.

 

[JenksIX]

I have never heard anything of that sort. I have heard that HBK was a very safe worker whose punches and kicks were actually weaker than those of most other wrestlers. He is actually a lot less tough than most other wrestlers. He can bump hard, sure, but as far as I have heard he would not be able to handle the situation even a little if someone happened to shoot on him.

As for the thread itself, everyone says that their generation is the best. Maybe that is what the legends of the 60's were saying about the wrestlers of the 80's.

Ugh, I'm trying to give HBK the benefit of the doubt here. I'd usually jump at the chance to call him a pussy Even if he's the not the best example for toughness, I think it's hard to argue that today's wrestling (WWE in particular) is the same as it had been in the past. The types of scenario's I'm talking about are Scott Hall spitting in Stevie Ray's face during a match w/o him expecting it(ok'ing it), to fire him up and get the crowd going. Or Ric Flair popping his groin towards Brooke Hogan and Hogan's girlfriend during a match.
It's not really about toughness, just that the game is not played the same anymore. Look what happened when Daniel Bryan spit in John Cena's face (along with other stuff Bryan did.) A lot of the old ways are being phased out and I think that might be hurting the authenticity of the show which is why you have so many discussions about how there are no more Hateable heels.

As for his punches and kicks, I don't think just because your stiff, doesn't mean you aren't safe. Bret Hart was a safe wrestler and he was stiff. HBK was always known as an asshole and I'm sure he'd be the type to take liberties, but that was normal back then. It has to look realistic.

The different between today's product and old school is that back then, the guys weren't portraying characters. They were those characters. They would be able to come up with better promos and be more convincing because they had to make themselves think differently rather than merely reading lines off a script. There's a big difference and you can see it in the characters today and of old school.

Exactly. I think there's a lot that attributes to this as well. Like where the hell did kayfabe go? The heels now a days sound like the nice guyest on their twitters. Back in 95, when the Kliq hugged in the ring, there was going to be a lockerroom brawl afterwards. Which is why I can agree with HBK's points, but it's not like he's the best example of what wrestling is about. If he had so much passion for the business, why break with tradition like that?

For you to be convincing, you need to become that character. And when your clinically insane like Ric Flair and Scott Steiner, it's easy for you to be convincing. They might be old, but I love it every time they're on the mic because you have no idea what they're gonna say or do.

I remember a comment D'Angelo Dinero made about his time in WWE. He said something along the lines of "how is a rich 40-50 year old white guy going to write lines for young black man from harlem." In TNA I still think he sucks, but I think it's a good point. If the wrestlers came up with their own lines, it makes the dialogue more diverse as it's coming from many more minds then just a writing team. You can't write the shit the guys in the 80s were coming up with and I think you might have to thank cocaine for some of that, but that's another story.

 

[shattered dreams]

Pope is one of the few guys that is playing his character in that 80s style with kayfabe around the clock yet you think he sucks. That, in a nutshell, is why many of us are skeptical of this concept.

 

[Slyfox696]

Pope is one of the few guys that is playing his character in that 80s style with kayfabe around the clock yet you think he sucks. That, in a nutshell, is why many of us are skeptical of this concept.

Being the character doesn't automatically qualify you as being a good wrestler. There are many other things which factor into the equation as well. It's not as simple as "playing his character in that 80s style".

However, for those workers who DO have the talent to be mega stars, this theory definitely comes into play.

 

[JenksIX]

Pope is one of the few guys that is playing his character in that 80s style with kayfabe around the clock yet you think he sucks. That, in a nutshell, is why many of us are skeptical of this concept.

Well me thinking he sucks, might mean he's doing his job (your suppose to not like the heels.) He is doing somethings pretty well, but there's other things he just might not grasp. I mean I don't want to go off a dirt sheet report, but the report says on him that he's always trying to get himself over (which is why he and Joe had such a grap feud.) He always wants to come off as a cool heel. But that's just a dirt sheet, but I feel the guy is naturally arrogant and self-serving ... he's a natural heel. He's a guy I enjoy to root against, but he's also the kind of guy that makes me want to change the channel.

 

[shattered dreams]

Being the character doesn't automatically qualify you as being a good wrestler. There are many other things which factor into the equation as well. It's not as simple as "playing his character in that 80s style".

However, for those workers who DO have the talent to be mega stars, this theory definitely comes into play.

Isn't the theory that the mere act of "being" the character improves your mic skills or something like that? Old school kayfabe is dead. People with the talent to be a huge star can get over and be quite entertaining without this theory. I'd say the main reason people think there was something better about that 80s style is because they were kids when they were exposed to it. I doubt kids now find the top guys hard to believe.

 

[Slyfox696]

Isn't the theory that the mere act of "being" the character improves your mic skills or something like that?

No, it improves the realism of what you're doing in the ring. But the Warlord could have had sex with his wife wearing his Warlord outfit, and it wouldn't change the fact he was never going to be a good wrestler.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

It's not really about toughness, just that the game is not played the same anymore. Look what happened when Daniel Bryan spit in John Cena's face (along with other stuff Bryan did.) A lot of the old ways are being phased out and I think that might be hurting the authenticity of the show which is why you have so many discussions about how there are no more Hateable heels.

I agree with what you are saying but this is largely a result of wrestling becoming more and more professional by the day. The interests of wrestlers are being protected and that lends to a safer working environment. You are obviously looking at the positive side of it but there is a negative side as well. I am sure many atrocities were committed in the olden days under the mask of the "its just a part of the business" line.

In the end the product might seem less tough but at the end of the day this will improve pro wrestling's image. It might also encourage a lot of young people to take up wrestling if they feel that it is a much safer vocation than it is made out to be.

I remember a comment D'Angelo Dinero made about his time in WWE. He said something along the lines of "how is a rich 40-50 year old white guy going to write lines for young black man from harlem." In TNA I still think he sucks, but I think it's a good point. If the wrestlers came up with their own lines, it makes the dialogue more diverse as it's coming from many more minds then just a writing team. You can't write the shit the guys in the 80s were coming up with and I think you might have to thank cocaine for some of that, but that's another story.

Actually, one of the big reasons why I think he sucks in TNA is because of his unscripted promos. I have a hard time following what he says. Unscripted promos are something that is best left to the professionals like Flair and Foley.

Its not just Dinero. I feel that even guys like Anderson and Morgan have some talent on the mic but that talent needs to be nurtured. They are not finished products but I guess it is something that niether they nor TNA fully realizes.

I agree that coming from a different social background might hinder you from writing lines for a guy like Pope but at the end of the day both Pope and the writer have to work as a team. Pope has to tell the writer what he wants to say and it's the writer's job to frame it in a coherent and entertaining manner which I believe any writer can do. This is a writer we are talking about, after all. I refuse to believe that he can be shit at a job for which he is being paid a handsome salary by the greatest wrestling promoter of all time.

The thing is I guess promos are overscripted in the WWE and underscripted in TNA. A balance needs to be found.

 

[shattered dreams]

No, it improves the realism of what you're doing in the ring. But the Warlord could have had sex with his wife wearing his Warlord outfit, and it wouldn't change the fact he was never going to be a good wrestler.

Aren't mic skills often displayed in the ring?

So who decides when someone is playing a character and when they are "being" a character? Only reason I ask is that back then the characters were less "real" to me compared to the present but they were more entertaining.

When it comes to the lack of superstars I would probably blame a lot of things but high on the list would be a failure to evolve. As such I have a hard time accepting the idea that not clinging to the ways of the past enough is the issue.