• Xenforo Cloud has scheduled an upgrade to XenForo version 2.2.16. This will take place on or shortly after the following date and time: Jul 05, 2024 at 05:00 PM (PT) There shouldn't be any downtime, as it's just a maintenance release. More info here

Have we forgotten the Pioneers?

Gelgarin

Gentleman of the Old School
Before I start things off, I'd like to take a little survey. I'd like to show you a list of arguably the twenty most important names from the pioneer era of professional wrestling. I'm very curious to know how many names people here recognise.

Frank Gotch
Georg Hackenschmidt
Ed "Strangler" Lewis
Jim Londos
Joe Stetcher
Lou Thesz
Martin Burns
Stanislaus Zbyszko
William Muldoon
Angelo Savoldi
Orville Brown
John Pesek
Ed Don George
Bill Longson
Earl Caddock
Gus Sonnenberg
Tom Jenkins
Ray Steele
Evan "Strangler" Lewis
Wladek Zbyszko


I'll be honest with you, I only got nine. I'd imagine most people will know Thesz and Gotch, but after that I'm curious as to how well we really know the people who founded the industry we love.

Georg Hackenschmidt was professional wrestling's first ever serious world champion. Joe Stretcher competed in the first ever Madison Square Garden main event and is immortalized in the earliest dating piece of wrestling footage. Jim Londos was the first man to ever use a gimmick to get over, and also one of the first men to draw a crown of over one-hundred-thousand.

Ed Lewis is my personal favorite forgotten hero. Aside from winning over 6000 matches, Lewis was the most important figure in the development of pro wrestling. He pioneered the idea of worked matches, under cards, kayfabe feuds and just about any other aspect of professional wrestling you'd care to name.

And then of course we get to Thesz, who I'm going to ignore from this posts, partly because I've already rambles on at length about how great he was, and party because people know who is was.

The point I'm trying to make is that many of the most important characters in pro wrestling's history lie forgotten about, and the question I'm trying to ask is why you think that this is.

Is it due to the lack of physical artifacts of their careers, or is it just that names pass out of memory inside a lifetime, and that this will happen to names like Sammartino, Kowalski and Andre the Giant over time as well.

Is it because of the WWE's "revisionist history" that pretends that these men did not exist, or were the twenty names I've mentioned above simply not as important as I'm trying to make out?
 
Out of those 20 names you've listed the only name I've heard is Ed "the strangler" Lewis. I only remember, I think it was Tazz?, who mentions his name is some Smackdown vs Raw game.

The rest, I don't re-call any form of wrestling history I've ever read ever mention any of these guys. Might have to wikipedia some of there names. Might find some interesting facts out.
 
Frank Gotch
Georg Hackenschmidt
Ed "Strangler" Lewis
Lou Thesz
Stanislaus Zbyszko
Jim Londos

I recognized these names. Mostly from an article I read a looooong time ago about the history of professional wrestling. I can't remember where I read it, but it talked in great detail about some of these guys, and the shows they used to do. Man, now I'm going to have to try and find that again...
 
I know a lot of those names from (and don't kill me for this) The Complete Idiot''s Guide to Pro Wrestling (Hey, I checked it out from a library just to see what is was like, OK?)

I got nine...
Frank Gotch
Georg Hackenschmidt
Ed "Strangler" Lewis
Jim Londos
Lou Thesz
Stanislaus Zbyszko
William Muldoon
Evan "Strangler" Lewis
Wladek Zbyszko
 
Is it due to the lack of physical artifacts of their careers, or is it just that names pass out of memory inside a lifetime, and that this will happen to names like Sammartino, Kowalski and Andre the Giant over time as well.
Mostly this. Already you can see that with guys like Sammartino, Morales, Buddy Rogers, etc.

But, I'm curious as to how you define your pioneers. You have several men that span several decades. Could you not also define guys like Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Billy Graham, Steve Austin, pioneers also? I mean, they all had a major influence on the way wrestling is today, and all had a major impact on the way wrestling is done.

If Lou Thesz is a pioneer, why not Hulk Hogan?

Is it because of the WWE's "revisionist history" that pretends that these men did not exist, or were the twenty names I've mentioned above simply not as important as I'm trying to make out?
While these two might have a little to do with it, I really do think it's just a matter of guys being forgotten by time. I mean, if you were to ask high school kids today who George Mikan, Bob Cousy, or even guys like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or Jerry Lucas are, they wouldn't know. I mean, those are five Hall of Famers, and people today have no idea.


So, I really think that it is a case of just being forgotten by time...although I also lend credence to the fact that some of those guys aren't as important as you make them out to be, as well.

I know a lot of those names from (and don't kill me for this) The Complete Idiot''s Guide to Pro Wrestling (Hey, I checked it out from a library just to see what is was like, OK?)
I have that book too, the one written by Lou Albano, right?

It's a good book. Don't be embarrassed by reading it, there's a lot of good information in there.
 
I have that book too, the one written by Lou Albano, right?

It's a good book. Don't be embarrassed by reading it, there's a lot of good information in there.

Is this the book we can thank for the Slyfox we know and..love?

Anyway, I only recognice maybe 2 or 3 of the names, and I don't care. I've been watching wrestling all my life, but I'm pretty sure most of those names are from before my time. And while I've watched some shows from before that time, none of these names have stuck out so that I remember them.

It will happen to the likes of Hogan, Austin, HHH, The Rock, HBK etc. It's just the way things go. In 30 years when these haven't wrestled for at least 20 years, do you think some 17 year old will know most of them? I'm guessing no. Most people fall in love with the current product, and very few will research much from before that time, why should they?
 
I recognize 11 of those names, mostly from the NWA world title lineage, but I don't know too much about their accomplishments outside of winning/wrestling for that title. I had no idea that Ed Strangler Lewis came up with the idea of worked matches, that's pretty cool.

I agree that it's inevitable later generations will have forgetten about Sammartino, Andre, Backlund, etc. Many people on here have already forgotten everything Andre did before WM 3, and can easily dismiss him as a talentless sideshow attraction (not the case at all).

However, I think the stars from the 70's and beyond have a better chance at being preserved than those from the pioneer era do. So much footage exists on youtube and the like, and match records on sites like OWW, that I don't think that stars of the modern era will ever just be reduced to a name on a title-histories site like the pioneers have. Most fans won't care, but the information/footage will hopefully still be accessible for anybody that does.
 
I know all of those names and while I remember them, I think wrestling could have gotten along without the majority of them. Sure tehy were huge names and they contributed to the sport, but I would consider the biggest three to be Thesz, Sammartino and Pinkie George. Thesz and Sammartino are teh first true superstars that we remember for the most part as heads of the two major organizations. They held their world titles for 7 years each and were way ahead of their time. George is someone that many here might not have heard of but has a legacy all his own: he founded the NWA. When you look at everything that has come off of that one company, without George wrestling would be very different. It was the first national governing body, which nearly every major company has been a child of.
 
I recognize 11 of them:

Frank Gotch
Georg Hackenschmidt
Ed "Strangler" Lewis
Jim Londos
Lou Thesz
Stanislaus Zbyszko
Orville Brown
Ed Don George
Ray Steele
Evan "Strangler" Lewis
Wladek Zbyszko

And I'm proud of the fact that I know those names. When you follow something, when you show interest in something, want to know about it. It's past, it's history, what it made what it is.

It's just a pet-peeve of mine when people *cough*teeny-boppers*cough* dismiss wrestlers from previous generations by declaring they don't matter, of they weren't as good, etc. And the Irish Canadian person above me is right about one thing. It will happen to the performers we know and love today as well one day by a future generation.

And we won't like it either.
 
Sadly I only know 6 of those names.

Wrestling fans have a short memory span, even some of the die hards. Even Bischoff and Vince have said this and I believe this to be 100% true. It's sad that the guys who helped shape the sport way back all those years ago have for the most part been forgotten. A lot of wrestling fans will only ever know the name Lou Thesz because of Stone Cold's Lou Thesz press maneuver. I feel like a hypocrite saying this since I only know six of those guys.

One day people will have forgotten about the greats of our time. People won't remember Austin, Rock, Foley, Andre, HBK, HHH, Savage etc. I really hope these guys will not be forgotten but in all actuality they probably will. I hate to say it and I do have doubts but even Hulk Hogan may be forgotten by time. I guess in 50 years we'll see.
 
I recognize every single one of those names, although my memory is foggy on Wladek Zbysko, Even "Strangler" Lewis, John Pesek, and Angelo Savoldi. I recognize those names, but I can't tell you exactly what years they wrestled between.

Everyone might laugh at me for admitting this, but the main reason I recognize all of these guys is because when I was kid, I was a hardcore reader of PWI. To this day I have a huge collection of old PWI magazines from the '80s (which my uncle gave me) and up to around 1998/1999. Now obviously for modern wrestling, those magazines were a joke and didn't inform you much of anything real, or what happened behind the scenes like the internet does nowadays, but when it comes to old school wrestling, pre-1950's wrestling, anything to do with PWI was invaluable to have. In particular the PWI Almanacs. I bought like the first 5 and studied them religiously (I've always been a history buff, so any subject I'm passionate about, I always study the history of it, just as I have music). I memorized dates, eras, and specific wrestlers.

And thus to this day, I can tell you a lot more about wrestling history then what's happening currently as I don't watch it nearly as much as I used to (that's why I don't post on here a whole lot, because when it comes to current wrestling, I simply can't keep up with most of you :p).

But anyways, if you can pick your hand up on any of the PWI almanacs, you can probably find all kinds of history and info on all of these guys. Again for modern wrestling, PWI doesn't help, it informs you of none of the backstage stuff. But when it comes to old school wrestling, it's pretty accurate in how it chronicles it.

The first important guy on that list to know is probably either William Muldoon or Martin "Farmer" Burns. Both were some of the earliest stars of American professional wrestling, around in the late 1800's. I believe William Muldoon was possibly the first, or at least one of the earliest "world champions" in America. Martin "Farmer" Burns was a reknowed shooter, much like Frank Gotch, Ed "Strangler" Lewis and Lou Thesz would later become. In fact, I believe it was Martin Burns who trained Frank Gotch. Farmer Burns would often do stunts publicly like challenge fans at carnivals, and he was famous for tying ropes around his neck to see how long he could last hanging, just to prove how strong his neck was. He was a pretty strong and tough guy from what I've read.

Tom Jenkins was the next big star in American professional wrestling. He kind of took over I guess from William Muldoon and Martin Burns and was the top American pro wrestling star of the late 1800's/early 1900's. At the same time, George Hackenschmidt was becoming the top wrestler in the world, and ended up beating Tom Jenkins here in America for the world title, I believe. In the early 1900's sometime. Then Frank Gotch took Tom Jenkins' spot as the top American pro wrestler. Frank not only became to top wrestler, he also became the biggest sports celebrity of the 1900s (much like how Michael Jordan was in the '90s, or in wrestling how Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant were). The first huge, big time match was the famous match between Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt in the later 1900's (1907 or 1909 I think, don't remember the year).

Now keep in mind at this point, professional wrestling was very real. Matches were wrestled like amateur style wrestling or Greco-Roman wrestling and matches would often last hours before a pinfall finally occured. Wrestling was a legitimate sport for the most part, although there is some dispute that "staged matches" were already taking place as early as the late 1800's. But for the most part, the matches were real. George Hackenschmidt basically retired after losing to Frank Gotch, and by the early 1910's, Frank Gotch was done as well (he would die in 1917 of uremic poisoning at the age of 39, so he was also probably the earliest big named wrestler to die at a young age).

From there, Earl Caddock (who I believe also fought in World War I), Joe Stetcher, Stanislaus Zybysko, and John Pesek pretty much took over and were the top stars of the late 1910's/early 1920's.

Ed "Strangler" Lewis also became a star at this time, and by the mid 20's was the top star in wrestling. Ed "Strangler" Lewis is quite possibly the most important wrestler in pro wrestling history. Modern pro wrestling, everything about it, pretty much came from Ed Lewis, and the promotors Toots Mondt (who would later form the WWWF with Vince McMahon Sr.) and Billy Sandow. This trio was known as "The Gold Dust" trio (I've often wondered if that's where Vince McMahon got the name "Goldust" for Dustin Runnels).

The problem was that by the mid '20s fans were getting tired of wrestling. Wrestling matches were often boring and too long, because the matches were legitimate. People got bored watching two wrestlers hook each other on the mat for 3 hours at a time, which often happened. And promotors didn't like it because the matches often went past the curfews, which caused problems with the police.

So Ed, Toots, and Billy pretty much created the first wrestling promotion. They created the idea of promoting wrestling cards, rather than just a single match, by having undercard matches which built up to the "main event." They were the first wrestling "group" as they hired the same group of wrestlers that toured around the country and wrestled each other. While they probably didn't solely invent staged matches, they were the first promotors and wrestler to prominently feature them, and pretty much set the tone for professional wrestling being a staged form of entertainment, rather than a legitimate sporting contest. They also created "staged" feuds to create more interest from the fans. They even changed the style of wrestling matches from legitimate, amateur styled wrestling to the modern format of bumps, hits, and everything else you see now. Ed was so tough that no one could legitimately beat him. So he would sometimes lose on purpose, just so fans would be interested. And it worked.

By the '30s, Jim Londos (who had sort of an Italian-like gimmick, and who was a very popular babyface, especially with female fans) became a big name. He was kind of the first "heart-throb" star in wrestling, like a '30s version of Rick Martel, Shawn Michaels, or Rick Rude, or John Cena. Supposedly he was the first wrestler to use the sleeper hold, amongst other moves. He drew some of the biggest crowds during the '30s, an amazing feat, considering the country was in the middle of the Great Depression.

Of course Lou Thesz emerged as a top star and won his first world title in 1937. I'm sure everyone knows the story of Lou Thesz.

Ray Steele, "Wild" Bill Longson, and Ed Don George were also big stars during the '30s, although Ed Don George was a bigger star more in the early '30s, while Bill Longson was more of a star into the '40s.

Another big pro wrestling star of the late 30s/early '40s that wasn't mentioned on that list was Bronko Nagurski, who is considered one of the greatest football players in NFL history, and who is an NFL HOFer. He was also a great pro wrestler and a world champion at one point in the early '40s.

Orville Brown was a big time popular wrestler in the '40s and who was going to become the first champion of the newly formed NWA in 1948. However, he was in a car accident weeks before the match he was supposed to win the title in, and his career was ended. So Lou Thesz ended up becoming the champion, and the rest, as they say, is history.

That's pretty much a short history on most of those guys. Again a few of them my memory is foggy on so I missed some I think.


Anywhos, to answer the 2nd part of the post, why are these guys forgotten? It's simply time has passed them by, and they didn't benefit from the technology that wrestlers nowadays will benefit from in the future. And these guys were from a whole different era, where wrestling was a completely different thing from what it is now. It's difficult for fans of modern day wrestling probably to grasp the era of wrestling from the late 1800's to mid 1900's, because it was so different and such a long time ago. It's like modern day rock music fans who love bands like Avenged Sevenfold, Disturbed, Mudvayne, etc, probably couldn't name you a Bo Diddley, Little Richard, or Fats Domino song. Heck they may not even be able to tell you who Bo Diddley, Little Richard, or Fats Domino are. Because bands like Avenged Sevenfold are so much different than Little Richard, it's like night and day. Music has changed a lot in 50 years, so has pro wrestling. And everything else for that matter.

Unfortunately, the way our society works is that for the most part, history is often ignored and/or forgotten about. We live in such a fast-paced society where people are constantly looking for something new and fresh. Anything that was popular a week ago is passe and it's time for the next trend or big thing. People also tend to recognize what's familiar to them and what's of their era and time. Going back and studying older times is difficult for a lot of people. Because it's difficult to be interested. They think "how is it relevant to me now." And that it's just so different and weird often times, it's hard to identify and stay interested.

How many modern day people do you know that can sit back and watch a movie in black and white? Not many I know. At the same time I know lot's of people that just can't watch a movie in black and white. They often times can't explain why. Well, it's most likely because they identify so much with colored films and that it's difficult for them to grasp watching a movie in black and white. It's too weird and foreign.

And wrestlers of the early 1900's compared to wrestlers of the modern era of wrestling, it's the same thing. How could a Hulk Hogan fan also sit back and enjoy watching an Earl Caddock match? It'd be like watching something completely different and opposite.


But the real problem is that it's very difficult to get exposure to these guys. It's difficult to get WWE to acknowledge Lou Thesz, Bruno Sammartino, and Buddy Rogers, (big stars of the '50s and '60s), let alone William Muldoon, Tom Jenkins, and Frank Gotch (stars of the late 1800's/early 1900's). WWE, which is who most modern wrestling fans get their wrestling history perspective from, just doesn't acknowledge pro wrestling before the 1960's and 1970's, and that's largely because the promotion itself started and got going in those decades. The only stars from before that time that they acknowledge are wrestlers who wrestled in the WWWF/WWF terittory or were a part of it like Arnold Skaaland, Ernie Ladd, Freddie Blassie, Killer Kowalski, etc. So WWE simply doesn't do it's part as the #1 American pro wrestling promotion, and really the biggest access to pro wrestling history for fans, to exposing fans to the true origins of pro wrestling. Another problem is that these guys wrestled before videotape existed, so you can't watch any of their matches. It's difficult in that regard to learn about them, because we can't watch their wrestling styles in action, their workrates, what moves they used, their charisma levels, etc. So that's why WWE or someone really needs to do some documentaries, or publish some books or something about wrestlers of the '30s and before. These guys need to be discovered and learned about, and unless the fan specifically seeks the knowledge out, they're not going to get it.

I was lucky in that PWI helped expose me to all of these guys and to the beginnings of pro wrestling. There's really not an outlet to discover these guys nowadays, except maybe wikipedia.


I don't think wrestlers nowadays will suffer the same fate though, because communicative and media technology has improved so much in the last 100 years compared to what existed in the era of Frank Gotch. The most advanced thing they had in those days was newspapers and photography. Thankfully if we want to, we can go back and read old newspaper articles and look at pictures of these guys. But that's about all we have. Whereas nowadays, the historys and careers of guys like Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, the Rock, Ric Flair, Shawn Micheals, the Undertaker, Kurt Angle, etc. will be much more highly preserved for future generations to discover and study. There is videotape of these guys's matches and promos. There are documentaries and books about most of these guys. And if there isn't now, there will be. Technology is improving so much and WWE is stuch a stable company that it will be around to upgrade their video library to whatever method is popular 30-40 years from now, so the careers of these guys will be upgraded (such as whatever comes after DVDs and computers) to whatever format fans 30-40 years from now can watch and learn.


It's a real shame that YouTube, DVD's and the internet didn't exist in the time of Frank Gotch, George Hackenschmidt, or even Buddy Rogers and Verve Gagne. It will be much more difficult for fans of future generations (even harder than it is for our current generation) to learn about these guys.

That's why WWE or someone needs to come out now and focus on these guys so that the origins of wrestling history will not be laid to rest and forgotten about. It's important to know history. How can we understand the present and predict the future if we don't even know the past? That applies to pro wrestling and everything about the world in general.
 
of the nine names i knew. a few were only because i knew their kids (like zbysko )
or names i only knew from reading (like londos)

the ones i actually saw wrestle are few.

the sad thing is, i always chalked this up to people's memories being way too short.

i never considered that there may be some nefarious plot by vince and friends to shortchange the memories of these titans.
 
Larry wasn't related to Stanislaus or Wldadek, who were actual brothers. Larry took the name because he grew up idolizing Stan.
 
I'm curious as to how you define your pioneers. You have several men that span several decades. Could you not also define guys like Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Billy Graham, Steve Austin, pioneers also? I mean, they all had a major influence on the way wrestling is today, and all had a major impact on the way wrestling is done.

If Lou Thesz is a pioneer, why not Hulk Hogan?

He is. In the realms of semantics and technicalities, anyone who is that big for that long is a pioneer to a certain extent.

The names I listed are from the 'pioneer' era however. Usually classified by those groups who dedicate their existence to preserving wresting history as the time before televised wrestling. After 1940 we've got a whole new generation of pioneers (who are considerably more recognisable) who helped redefine the product to suit a television audience.

If I wanted to be confrontational, I'd suggest that Hogan himself was less of a pioneer, and more of a 'guy who was phenomenally good at his job'. Off the top of my head, I can't think of very much Hogan did that hadn't been done before by someone else, just with less skill or convenient timing backing it up (but that's a debate for another day).

While these two might have a little to do with it, I really do think it's just a matter of guys being forgotten by time. I mean, if you were to ask high school kids today who George Mikan, Bob Cousy, or even guys like Elgin Baylor, Jerry West or Jerry Lucas are, they wouldn't know. I mean, those are five Hall of Famers, and people today have no idea.

Personally, I imagine that the top names of the TV and modern era will be better remembered by the eyes of history. People will always have an interest in the origins of the business, and I suspect when future generations look back they'll assume that it came about with names like Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan.

Partly that is because there is physical evidence if these people careers floating around. Your wrestling fan of the future will just have to hit YouTube to find out all they want to know about them. Also of course there's the fact that their legacies are protected by the WWE. The Hall of Fame exists, and as long as it continues to exist the names on it arn't going to be forgotten.

Myself I think it's a shame that the WWE excludes people who have not actually worked for the company from the Hall of Fame. I think men like Ed Lewis did more than enough to pave the way for the WWE's existence that they deserve commemoration, and the WWE is the only body powerful enough to give it to them.


dd23beatlesfan1's million word post

Well... that was probably the best post I've read around here since I showed up. I hope a few people who actually matter are showering this guy with rep.
 
I recognize a good portion of these names.

For example, alot of people don't realize that Hackenschmidt is the creator of the Hack Squat excercise, as well as the first truly recognized World Champion, as early as 1904 although he claimed as much in 1901.

As for one of the others, I'm currently using the Farmer Burns Method of excercise. Basically a resistance practice, and breathing techniques. It gives great results.

basically, I learned of all these guys by good old fasioned research, as a direct result of my wanting to be a historian on this sport. I talked to a few friends within the business, and tracked down alot of Info. And Wiki helped alot, too.

anyhow, to avoid another tangent, I think it's a shame more "fans" don't care about the heritage of the sport, and seem to think it didn't exist before Hulk Hogan. I hope it doesn't come to pass that these truly great names don't get totally forgotten.
 
Frank Gotch
Georg Hackenschmidt
Ed "Strangler" Lewis

Jim Londos
Joe Stetcher
Lou Thesz

Martin Burns
Stanislaus Zbyszko
William Muldoon
Angelo Savoldi
Orville Brown
John Pesek
Ed Don George
Bill Longson
Earl Caddock
Gus Sonnenberg
Tom Jenkins
Ray Steele
Evan "Strangler" Lewis
Wladek Zbyszko


Those in bold are the ones I recognise at first glance, if I search my mind I may know more but, they just aren't coming to me that easily. Aren't you also forgetting Dick Beyer in that list there? Or the Destroyer if you didn't know.

But yes simply put fans have forgotten the Pioneers of the Sport that we all love and watch. Simply put I created a thread marking the 100 year anniversary of the first match between Georg Hackenschmidt and Frank Gotch, and from the looks of things on that day that was the only acknowledgement of it apart from a response by Steve Corino on his forums to a question I asked about it and whether it should be celebrated. and his response is thus

100% only because that is OUR wrestling history.

But on that day there was nothing mentioned on WWE, TNA, NWA or RoH websites. While it may not seem like a big deal it was a centenary event and should have been celebrated as such.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
174,826
Messages
3,300,735
Members
21,726
Latest member
chrisxenforo
Back
Top