From 1994-2014, did WWE convince youngsters that Savage didn't matter/wasn't great?

[Creepy Old Man]

I'm not sure that young people realise how great Randy Savage was. It's pretty much held among industry writers who've been around that Savage was a tremendous athlete, a great worker, an incendiary talker and a guy who was comparable to Hogan in popularity during the late 1980s. Hogan, in a recent Fighting Spirit interview, said Savage was a similar draw to him; this was corroborated by Bret Hart and Jimmy Hart on Savage's recent DVD. You're talking about a 20th century household name with a 32-year career, who main-evented three WrestleManias, a Starrcade, and was genuinely brilliant at what he did.

However, almost any time I see a millennial (I'm one too, just a geeky one that views old stuff) list their top 10 guys, Savage is strangely absent. It's usually Hogan, Austin and Rock along with some combination of Undertaker, Michaels, Hart, Triple H etc. I even had an argument with a teenage wrestling fan at a recent indy show, who said that Savage was only being inducted into the Hall of Fame this year because he had died - his young friends agreed. To them, Savage was nothing, because after all, when did the almighty WWE last hail this guy as a great? When was he ever invited to Raw to wave to the fans and be hailed as a "legend" by Michael Cole? In my experience, WWE dictates fan opinion 90+% of the time, even for the smarks. Maybe not on a week-to-week basis ("Let's go Bryan... Roman sucks!"), but certainly when it comes to all-time standing. I mean, Sting would probably be hailed as the unequivocal GOAT right now, had WCW won the Monday Night Wars.

So yeah, Savage's work in WWE has been discounted; his feuds with Hogan, Steamboat, Flair and Warrior, unimportant. His role in making WWE a global powerhouse in the latter half of the 1980s, worthless. His WCW tenure (which encompassed an awesome feud with DDP, a Great American Bash '95 classic with Flair, and four world titles, among other aspects), completely inconsequential, garbage for the trash can... WWE has never praised it, after all. Not saying it was as good as his WWF run, but Savage was still on his game in the ring and incredibly over.

WWE's silent treatment of Savage from 1994-2014 shows to me the power the company holds. Because the kids haven't heard his legacy perpetuated, he can't be as good as Bret Hart or Warrior or whoever else. In my eyes, Savage is one of the rare guys who excelled in each and every aspect of sports entertainment performance, had a tremendous tenure in the business, and is a true "A" guy in history. The kids seem to think otherwise. What's your take?

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

I think people need to realise that there are two main categories of wrestling fans: the casual viewer and the hardcore fan. The casual viewer is one who may watch each and every Raw and ppv, but doesn't neccesarilly get invested in the industry; the hardcore fan is one who gets immersed in the industry, and is willing to research other companies or historical footage (I would estimate, without any stats, that 70% of people signed up to the WWE Network are hardcore fans doing so for the historical footage)

To this end, it doesn't really matter who WWE puts over once they've left, and who they treat as outcasts, as those that want to, and are willing to research the classic periods of wrestling will either be aware, or become aware, of the work of the likes of Savage. His legacy is there for all to see, WWE haven't done anything to prevent that.

 

[OYDK]

You know, I never really thought about this, but it's possible. I was a said youngster, during the early 90's and I was never really acquainted with the Macho Man because I was always a WWF guy through and through. When I got a little older, I went back and began to watch WCW and the Rock n Wrestling era, and Randy Savage ended up becoming one of my favorites of all time.

I agree with you. Some people don't seem to realize that Randy Savage was the original Shawn Micheals in the sense that, he could cut a great promo and than go out and wrestle a 5 star match 2 minutes later. As the poster above me mentioned though, there are hardcore fans and there are casual fans, and sadly, there are much more casual fans than hardcore fans. Had I been a "casual", I would have never gone back to watch the old stuff, and thus would have never formed an opinion on Savage... He would have been just a name in my eyes.

Also, Savage and the WWE were never able to make nice. Warrior is all of the sudden remembered for being this gigantic entity when, for many years we NEVER heard his name on WWETV. It's just recently that he's getting his just due. I would argue the same thing had happened with Sammartino and Bret Hart. Sadly though, we will never get that "Macho Man" remembrance week or that photo of Vince and Randy hugging it out after all these years. It will be up to the WWE fan to search him out on the Network if they want to see how great he really was.

 

[Goldie]

WWE had a habbit of glossing over its own history. Guys on good terms continually get the 'Living Legend' treatment on TV, so fans are constantly reminded of them.... whereas guys on Vinces blacklist are rarely acknowledged.... and this sums up Savage over this time period.

Before Bret made peace with the WWE, I remember a story where a young wrestling recognised him.... but not from his wrestling career.... the kid only recognised him as an extra (lockable) career in a WWE video game, and had no idea what he had achieved in his career. Bret lamented about how heros are quickly forgotten about, at a time when his arch rival Shawn Michaels was receiving the living legend treatment on WWE programming.

Savage was a great all rounder, he was a super worker, had charisma, a good look, could draw, and equally brilliant at playing a face or heel.
Not many wrestlers in history had all those attributes.

Savage was genuinely in the top 5 names in wrestling over the WWE expansion era, and well into the 90s. I still think he could find a place in the top dozen WWE stars of all time.

Its a good point showcasing the difference between die-hard fans and casual fans.... but even for younger fans who watch every WWE show, Savages era was now 25 years ago, so even young die-hard fans might not realise how great Savage really was.
Which is a shame.

 

[Dave]

I've been a WWE fan for the better part of 15 years now. And truth be told, if I were to make a list of the 10 best wrestlers to have ever graced a WWE ring, the. I would likely leave Macho Man off of that list. And I think that the OP has completely nailed why that is. Having matured somewhat and looked I to the history of the WWE, I have to agree with people who say that Macho Man was an incredibly unique talent that really shaped the WWE throughout his career. But the WWE has never really gotten behind that idea for as long as I have been watching at least.

You always hear the WWE talking about Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Rowdy Roddy Piper and Ricky Steamboat etc. But Macho Man has never been one of those guys that the WWE constantly reminds his accomplishments and achievements. I don't think the WWE and Macho Man had the best working relationship either, right? So that might have something to do with why they don't give him a lot more attention that he probably deserves.

That said, having started watching wrestling after Macho Man had finished his career, I was never really of aware of him and his career. That might be down to a lot of my own ignorance for the Old School product but I definitely think that the WWE could have been doing more before now, especially given the way they seem to have embraced The Ultimate Warrior in the last year or so. Maybe now that he is heading into the Hall of Fame, the WWE might go about changing this course of action.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

They do airbrush their history but not always for the reasons you think.

The WWE has for the last 13 years or so, since the buyout been on a mission to not only eliminate everything from prior except their version of the "Monday Night War's" history but also most of what went before it as well. Their strategy was contingent on the public and particularly kids buying into JAAAAHHHN CEEEEENAAHHH as the pinnacle of Sports Entertainment, which meant a lot of people were "brushed under the carpet" at various points. While Hogan was "not on terms" with the WWE, how often was he mentioned? When The Rock wasn't doing business his appearances would be every 2-3 years for a pre-tape... he'd get no mention during that off time.

Where they have struggled more recently is that no one on the current roster can make the fans not pine for the past, and the past is now a major part of the business model cos of the Network...

In Savage's case, forgetting any political reasons for a moment, there was little value in promoting Savage as a WWE great prior to his death...he was not in shape to "go" had moved on from the business and arguably using him may have caused issues with Hogan who is still their top nostalgia go to guy. If you then factor in the Steph stuff... let's face it, the true "creepy" part of his doc was the teenage girl he would "babysit" and who still pines for him like a lost love... if ANYTHING happened with Steph etc or even if Randy was a complete gent and rebuffed her but told her dad (what dad would want to hear his 14 year old daughter is trying to seduce 40+ year old men?) then it would make it impossible. That the rumor is out there would make it difficult under the "Chyna" logic to highlight Savage.

Personally I think it's all horseshit, the bottom line is that Vince didn't promote Savage because he took his 20m Slim Jim contract with him. That was the money that Vince was relying on and what caused the lean year of 1995 and put WWE in the situation where losing the MNR could have bankrupted them. That 20m was basically paying 95% of the talent at the time and replacing it really damaged the business.

Whichever of the above scenarios was true, Vince wasn't going to promote the guy... his death allowed that cathartic watershed internally in the company... the period where "he couldn't go in anyway" let them begin to selectively rebuild his legacy and now they can complete it, without any awkward questions for Randy at a press conference or any difficult meetings backstage.

From the fans perspective it'd be easy to see why a kid would not get the "big deal" Randy Savage was... everything about WWE is different to when he was on top... he's not the only guy, guys like Rick Rude, Davey Boy, Bam Bam and even Warrior and Jake until last year were all in the same position. Savage was arguably the most high profile however and the one with the "heat" for whatever reason... You're seeing a lot more "nostalgia" inductions this year, now looks like Ray Stevens is out... cos now celebrating the 80's and 90's guys is best for business... it wasn't in that decade prior cos WWE NEEDED fans to believe it was at it's apex then... that Cena was better than anyone prior etc... now they know that's not working so they need people to sign up to see the past stuff when "wrestling was good", even if it's parents so they can say to Little Jimmy, "Ok, this is what it was when I was a kid... do you like it better?" most will say yes.

BUT

That would be without a lot of the crutches WWE relies on today and for the last 15 years plus... Kids are used to a different set of rules/standards. Savage never went through tables, but he did the leaping clothesline over the top rope...which in it's day was one of the pinnacle highspots. He never was in a Cell or Ladder match, never took an AA or wrestled many of the kids "point of reference guys", he never fought Shawn, or Hunter, or Rock or Austin... anyone who they would really "know" other than Hogan and maybe Duthy now. Everyone points to Savage/Steamboat... but how many of today's kids would "get that match", they're used to how WWE does it now... Would they see the greatness in that match? or would they just see it as "boring and dated"?

In reality this is why NXT is doing what it's doing... it's reducating younger fans to appreciate the old WWF style, by dressing it up as new... so when they see older matches on the Network it makes sense to them without 5 moves of doom, comebacks, botches etc being somethign they are looking for. NXT is teaching kids about how guys like Randy Savage did it... telling the story first...

 

[Seosa]

Definitely. Having watched wrestling for roughly just over 14 years now, I can easily declare a lack of awareness of Savage's career based on the lack of promotion by the WWE. To an extent Warrior was the same.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Well, obviously having had his prime years during Hogan's prime years was as damaging to Savage's rep as anything could ever be. I can't recall if Savage ever defeated Hogan head-to-head at any point in their careers, but I sure remember Hogan beating Savage. Even when Savage won the world title in '88, it was staged largely as a tribute to Hogan's sportsmanship, as I saw it, with Hogan "overseeing" Macho Man's victory in the finals. In other words, even becoming world champion still cast Savage as subordinate to Hogan; which did nothing to convince fans Savage was great.

Also, did we ever learn the details behind Savage leaving WWE? Even with Vince McMahon at ringside announcing Savage's departure ("Conspicuous by his absence....."), we got the idea it must have really been a sore subject between he and Savage. After being deserted by so many people McMahon helped become stars, having Savage do the same might have led him to tell his employees that mentioning Savage's name in any context would get them fired.

Even in the last years of his life, when Savage came to some kind of merchandising deal with WWE, we don't know that he was ever personally acknowledged by Vince McMahon, do we? For that matter, it could be the greater grudge was held by Macho Man, himself.

So, while I don't know that WWE set out to "convince" young fans that Savage wasn't important, the mere omission of his name in WWE broadcasts and other media might have wound up serving the same purpose.

 

[justtxyank]

People that still promote the Stephanie rumor are ridiculous. It didn't happen, it was never a factor in anything. It's a total bogus internet dumpster rumor and continuing to push it is insulting.

Savage almost returned to the WWF at the end of 1996 (holding out on WCW which is why he jobbed to Hogan at Halloween Havoc) and again in 99 or 2000. When Savage left the WWF to go to WCW he got a send off on Raw from Vince personally.

Vince was mad at Savage over business stuff (the Slim Jim contract for example at a time when advertisers didn't want anything to do with wrestling), but the Steph rumor is absolute hogwash and intelligent people should stop bringing it up in these threads about him.

 

[Vader]

Don't forget the Nacho Man and Huckster from WM13.

For Vince during the time WCW picked up and started becoming more of a rival from about 95 onto 2000, I can see where you would want to keep guys like Savage, Bret, and Hogan at a distance since they were at your rival company. Despite this, to mock them or lambast them when they were the face of your company at one point is both disrespectful, but also discredits your brand.

It took Vince awhile to acknowledge the Warrior. Partly because he went to WCW briefly, but this is largely due to the terms that he left the company.

Bret left the company on bad terms after Montreal and that relationship took about 10 or years to repair.

Hogan came back when he had a little gas left in the tank in the early 2000s and of course got back in on good graces.

Flair was never a product of the WWF so his situation is altogether different and there was no real lag in when the WWE worked to acknowledge his past.

For whatever reason, Savage has gotten the stick from the WWE and it's taken the company an excessively long time to come back around and market him again. The Hogan and Savage dynamic has always been interesting to me. When you look at their successes paralleling one another in the WWF and later in WCW, there's a part of me that thought without Hogan, Savage could have been the face of both companies. There's another part of me that wonders if Savage could have had the success he did without being tied in with Hogan, who still managed to keep him from his potential in several ways. As far as I know, Savage never scored a clean win over Hogan who always had excessive creative control over his character.

So yeah the WWE had a good 10 year gap as you suggest where Savage was largely ignored. Savage never came back to the WWE and lingered inappropriately the way that Flair and Hogan in the 2000s. As far as everyone knows, Savage left because he wanted to wrestle and not just commentate which is seemingly a legit excuse, but it seems like there is something deeper.

 

[ilapierre]

Great thread! For me, Savage comes right after the 3 greatest: Hogan, Flair and Sammartino. Yet so many fans 25 and under ignore his contributions and say dumb bullshit like he was overrated when he died. One poster here was talking about how casual fans are different than hardcore fans and there might be truth to that. Hardcore fans under 25 that is. It doesn't take a hardcore fan to realize Savage was one of the greatest. All you have to do is watch one of the first 10 Wrestlemanias. Savage appeared at 8 Manias, headlined 3 and had the best match on the card 5 times! Youd really have to be living under a fucking rock and be a real dumbass millennial to not know this. Saying that hardcore fans know Savage was one of the greatest is like saying that only hardcore fans know that Austin, gone 10 years now, is one of the greatest. Plain and simple. WWE WROTE SAVAGE OUT OF HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE. They did the same thing for a time to Bret and Warrior.. and to a smaller extent with Hogan when he went to TNA. They do it to Benoit now. Savage was never invited back and refused to appear on RAW or a WWE PPV for 10 years after his retirement (most likely due to it being common knowledge backstage that he had been porking an underage Steph). There was no way WWE was gonna hire him back and promote him in case that information ever got out publicly (think Trips excuse for Chyna not being in the HOF).

Plain and simple. The dumb brats who think Savage simply got overrated when he died expose themselves of being wrestling history ignorant. They didn't care much about Savage because their WWE TV never told them to care or prefer him (this was the whole basis of the PG era..being forcefed lowest common denominator bullshit like corny as fuck Cena). Savage was Mr Wrestlemania 1A with Hogan the first decade of Wrestlemanias. He had been wrestling 12 years prior to the first Wrestlemania and he was a top name superstar for the next 14 years of his career (ignoring his select few appearances after his HogWild 99 match with Rodman). Austin and Rock, no matter how big they blew up and how much they drew for a short period of time, do not hold a candle when it comes to the Madness.

 

[ilapierre]

People that still promote the Stephanie rumor are ridiculous. It didn't happen, it was never a factor in anything. It's a total bogus internet dumpster rumor and continuing to push it is insulting.

Savage almost returned to the WWF at the end of 1996 (holding out on WCW which is why he jobbed to Hogan at Halloween Havoc) and again in 99 or 2000. When Savage left the WWF to go to WCW he got a send off on Raw from Vince personally.

Vince was mad at Savage over business stuff (the Slim Jim contract for example at a time when advertisers didn't want anything to do with wrestling), but the Steph rumor is absolute hogwash and intelligent people should stop bringing it up in these threads about him.

Oh look! Its another mark ignorant of wrestling history. Perhaps you should go watch the most recent Macho Man DVD. Dusty Rhodes says it himself tactfully without actually coming right out and saying it (he does so in good taste so not to dishonour Savages memory and legacy and so not to bring negative attention to WWE).

Nothing bothers me more than people who try and write off stuff they don't want to hear. I actually disbelieved this rumour for years because Im a massive Savage fan. I had always entertained its possibility but I would never go around claiming it as fact since I simply just didn't know. One thing I never did was dismiss it like some ass clown. Savage has had his legacy downplayed since he left in 94. So there had to be something more to it than simply selling Slim Jims or going to WCW. Hitman, Warrior, Hogan going to TNA, Bruno etc etc..wrestlings biggest superstars have left WWE on bad terms to be given their proper place in wrestling history. Not Savage. Then watching his latest DVD last November it was confirmed. So there you have it. Savage porked an underage Steph and WWE doesn't want to promote him. Not because Vince hates him. Savage and Steph probably had a mutually accepted encounter between them despite the age inappropriateness. Its like Benoit killing his family or Chyna doing porn. PG WWE marketing to lowest common denominator ppl with kid like mentalities cannot promote the legacy of a murderer, a porn star or a rapist. I hate saying it like that because Savage is my all time favourite wrestler. And Im certain that whatever happened between the 2 was consensual. But that is why Savage has had his legacy diminished. I cant think of any other reason that would warrant downplaying the 4th greatest wrestling entertainer of all time!

 

[ilapierre]

They do airbrush their history but not always for the reasons you think.

The WWE has for the last 13 years or so, since the buyout been on a mission to not only eliminate everything from prior except their version of the "Monday Night War's" history but also most of what went before it as well. Their strategy was contingent on the public and particularly kids buying into JAAAAHHHN CEEEEENAAHHH as the pinnacle of Sports Entertainment, which meant a lot of people were "brushed under the carpet" at various points. While Hogan was "not on terms" with the WWE, how often was he mentioned? When The Rock wasn't doing business his appearances would be every 2-3 years for a pre-tape... he'd get no mention during that off time.

Where they have struggled more recently is that no one on the current roster can make the fans not pine for the past, and the past is now a major part of the business model cos of the Network...

In Savage's case, forgetting any political reasons for a moment, there was little value in promoting Savage as a WWE great prior to his death...he was not in shape to "go" had moved on from the business and arguably using him may have caused issues with Hogan who is still their top nostalgia go to guy. If you then factor in the Steph stuff... let's face it, the true "creepy" part of his doc was the teenage girl he would "babysit" and who still pines for him like a lost love... if ANYTHING happened with Steph etc or even if Randy was a complete gent and rebuffed her but told her dad (what dad would want to hear his 14 year old daughter is trying to seduce 40+ year old men?) then it would make it impossible. That the rumor is out there would make it difficult under the "Chyna" logic to highlight Savage.

Personally I think it's all horseshit, the bottom line is that Vince didn't promote Savage because he took his 20m Slim Jim contract with him. That was the money that Vince was relying on and what caused the lean year of 1995 and put WWE in the situation where losing the MNR could have bankrupted them. That 20m was basically paying 95% of the talent at the time and replacing it really damaged the business.

Whichever of the above scenarios was true, Vince wasn't going to promote the guy... his death allowed that cathartic watershed internally in the company... the period where "he couldn't go in anyway" let them begin to selectively rebuild his legacy and now they can complete it, without any awkward questions for Randy at a press conference or any difficult meetings backstage.

From the fans perspective it'd be easy to see why a kid would not get the "big deal" Randy Savage was... everything about WWE is different to when he was on top... he's not the only guy, guys like Rick Rude, Davey Boy, Bam Bam and even Warrior and Jake until last year were all in the same position. Savage was arguably the most high profile however and the one with the "heat" for whatever reason... You're seeing a lot more "nostalgia" inductions this year, now looks like Ray Stevens is out... cos now celebrating the 80's and 90's guys is best for business... it wasn't in that decade prior cos WWE NEEDED fans to believe it was at it's apex then... that Cena was better than anyone prior etc... now they know that's not working so they need people to sign up to see the past stuff when "wrestling was good", even if it's parents so they can say to Little Jimmy, "Ok, this is what it was when I was a kid... do you like it better?" most will say yes.

BUT

That would be without a lot of the crutches WWE relies on today and for the last 15 years plus... Kids are used to a different set of rules/standards. Savage never went through tables, but he did the leaping clothesline over the top rope...which in it's day was one of the pinnacle highspots. He never was in a Cell or Ladder match, never took an AA or wrestled many of the kids "point of reference guys", he never fought Shawn, or Hunter, or Rock or Austin... anyone who they would really "know" other than Hogan and maybe Duthy now. Everyone points to Savage/Steamboat... but how many of today's kids would "get that match", they're used to how WWE does it now... Would they see the greatness in that match? or would they just see it as "boring and dated"?

In reality this is why NXT is doing what it's doing... it's reducating younger fans to appreciate the old WWF style, by dressing it up as new... so when they see older matches on the Network it makes sense to them without 5 moves of doom, comebacks, botches etc being somethign they are looking for. NXT is teaching kids about how guys like Randy Savage did it... telling the story first...

Good post for the most part. Your point about who Savage never faced isn't accurate though. Savage fought Michaels at least 4 times and squared off with Austin at least once in WCW. Savage beat them both every single time. He also fought Undertaker once in a dark match during his retirement and he pinned him too. He pinned Warrior once in the fall of 1990. Warrior rarely ever got pinned. Everyone knows Flair and Savage gave Flair some of his greatest feuds and matches. Everyone knows Hitman and Warrior. Savage fought them both a pile of times. I think the issue with fans today not knowing much about Savage has more to do with what you brought up above. I never realized the Slim Jim thing was such a big deal until I read your post. That would definitely have pissed Vince off. But Vince is a billionaire now. Water under the bridge. This is personal and it has to be because of his inappropriate relationship with Steph.

 

[justtxyank]

Oh look! Its another mark ignorant of wrestling history. Perhaps you should go watch the most recent Macho Man DVD. Dusty Rhodes says it himself tactfully without actually coming right out and saying it (he does so in good taste so not to dishonour Savages memory and legacy and so not to bring negative attention to WWE).

Nothing bothers me more than people who try and write off stuff they don't want to hear. I actually disbelieved this rumour for years because Im a massive Savage fan. I had always entertained its possibility but I would never go around claiming it as fact since I simply just didn't know. One thing I never did was dismiss it like some ass clown. Savage has had his legacy downplayed since he left in 94. So there had to be something more to it than simply selling Slim Jims or going to WCW. Hitman, Warrior, Hogan going to TNA, Bruno etc etc..wrestlings biggest superstars have left WWE on bad terms to be given their proper place in wrestling history. Not Savage. Then watching his latest DVD last November it was confirmed. So there you have it. Savage porked an underage Steph and WWE doesn't want to promote him. Not because Vince hates him. Savage and Steph probably had a mutually accepted encounter between them despite the age inappropriateness. Its like Benoit killing his family or Chyna doing porn. PG WWE marketing to lowest common denominator ppl with kid like mentalities cannot promote the legacy of a murderer, a porn star or a rapist. I hate saying it like that because Savage is my all time favourite wrestler. And Im certain that whatever happened between the 2 was consensual. But that is why Savage has had his legacy diminished. I cant think of any other reason that would warrant downplaying the 4th greatest wrestling entertainer of all time!

Dusty Rhodes didn't confirm anything.

Those videos are a work. I honestly can't believe I just called a mark by someone who is trying to use a WWE produced video as some sort of authoritative source on wrestling history.

Maybe you are right.

Savage nailed Stephanie McMahon and he was so angry that he fired him. After firing him he gave him a classy on air sendoff and then tried to rehire him multiple times prior to 1999. It doesn't make any sense and doesn't jive with anything that was aid anywhere prior to some stupid internet message board in 2004 that started spreading that rumor.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

My thoughts on this are that definitely WWE can make or break someones legacy.

Ultimate Warrior until last year was a great example of this. Bret Hart until he came to terms / did his DVD was another great example of WWE erasing people's relevance in their history. On the flip side, "company men" have legendary status.

If you look at Randy Savage - he had a phenomenal WWF career. He left on rocky terms (whether you believe the rumours or not, he still went to WCW and was a big part of the competition during the wars). And he never came back the way Hogan, Nash, Bret, etc did. So from Vince's perspective, he has no reason to promote Randy in the context of the history of his company.

Obviously, WM3 - WM8 Randy was a huge part of the history. It's not like they give him the Benoit treatment, but they don't go out of their way to really promote him, due to the circumstances of his relationship with the company until he passed. It probably also doesn't help that Savage didn't have a great WCW career. Yes, he won multiple world titles, but he was never the focus of the company and his work rate in the mid-late 90s was nothing like it used to be.

However, just like Bret and Warrior, Savage will get his turn to be remembered. WWE is finally doing the right thing, and unfortunately he won't be around in person to see it, but he will get the proper honour and respect he deserves. And his legacy will hopefully be more relevant to younger fans as a result.

 

[ilapierre]

Dusty Rhodes didn't confirm anything.

Those videos are a work. I honestly can't believe I just called a mark by someone who is trying to use a WWE produced video as some sort of authoritative source on wrestling history.

Maybe you are right.

Savage nailed Stephanie McMahon and he was so angry that he fired him. After firing him he gave him a classy on air sendoff and then tried to rehire him multiple times prior to 1999. It doesn't make any sense and doesn't jive with anything that was aid anywhere prior to some stupid internet message board in 2004 that started spreading that rumor.

No. Your logic is wrong and I never said that. When Savage left WWF in 94, Vince had no idea he had been porking his daughter. Savage would have been banished immediately had Vince known about it. There would be no classy send off or any time commentating or wrestling at Survivor Series. It must have come out later. I am not a mark for believing what I read between the lines in a WWE produced video. A mark is someone who is worked on purpose to believe something as part of a storyline. I could easily argue you are a mark worked by the WWE PR writers on Wrestlezone who purposely lead readers into thinking things like the Undertaker may not make it to Wrestlemania..The same guys who guilt or shame those within this community from thinking unclassy things like Savage fucked Stephanie..Dusty Rhodes said what he said and it speaks for itself whether you want to believe it or not. I believe it because I could tell he knew for sure but didnt want to disrespect Savages family. Does that make me a mark for believing it..or does it make you a mark for trusting whoever or whatever it is who leads you to believe there is no truth to it..

 

[Creepy Old Man]

Dusty Rhodes didn't confirm anything.

Those videos are a work. I honestly can't believe I just called a mark by someone who is trying to use a WWE produced video as some sort of authoritative source on wrestling history.

Maybe you are right.

Savage nailed Stephanie McMahon and he was so angry that he fired him. After firing him he gave him a classy on air sendoff and then tried to rehire him multiple times prior to 1999. It doesn't make any sense and doesn't jive with anything that was aid anywhere prior to some stupid internet message board in 2004 that started spreading that rumor.

Sean Waltman did a Kayfabe Commentaries shoot a few years back where he said that the rumour was circulating in the locker room way back when. Bob Holly wrote in his book that Stephanie was very hands-on with Randy in the locker room and that it wouldn't surprise him if it were true. I'm not sure I believe it, but it's definitely not something just made up by a smark on some forum a decade ago.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I don't think that WWE set out to deliberately convince younger fans that Macho Man wasn't great (other than the Nacho Man vignettes highlighting WCW's policy of signing older ex-WWF stars), but I think simply by not mentioning him, and us never seeing him on WWE programming has led to younger fans simply not being aware of what a big deal Randy Savage was. They just don't know how good he was.

There's obviously been bad blood between Savage and WWE for a long while. Whether the Stephanie rumours are true or not (which I believe isn't a strue story), the fact didn't see a single Savage appearance on WWE TV after the demise of WCW emphasises this to be the case. Pretty much every "legend" in WWE history (bar Sammartino and Warrior, who did eventually bury the hatchet) has appeared on a WWE show in the last decade, even if it was only a "legends" episode of Raw. We've seen the likes of Hogan, Piper, Steamboat, Flair, all peers of The Macho Man...and yet Savage never got a mention, which is why alot of young fans just don't think of him when a "Top 10" list is made- they haven't been schooled on his talent. His deliberate ommision from WWE programming is a damn shame.

Hopefully with his long-overdue HOF induction, which sadly has come after Randy's passing, the younger generation will be exposed to Macho and his great matches.

 

[berlinbrawler]

I started watching the WWF regularly in 1992 (I know because Flair winning the Rumble that year was what hooked me for good). By that time Savage was no longer the performer he once had been (even though he held the title that year) and his ring outfits had become somewhat hideous. He looked awesome giving interviews or coming down the isle, don't get me wrong, but in the ring he definitely should have taken off a lot more of his gaudy outfits, like he used to. (Hmm, this is one of those awkward moments where I realize that I've spent the last 20+ years watching half-naked, oiled up beefackes sitting on each others faces...)

Oh, yeah, as champion he had that prolonged phase were he mercilessly oversold a fake knee injury, resulting in some of the most hideous, dragging matches of all time (looking at you, Ultimate Warrior at Summerslam).
So yea, without the foreknowledge of Savage in the 80s he didn't look too good at the time.
And at WCW, truth be told, while his outfits there improved, with some very few exceptions he was kinda a sucky wrestler as well. Uff, just thinking of some of his matches with Hogan there makes me shudder (to be fair, Hogan could have bad matches with almost anyone, but man were they bad).
As a result, for the longest time I thought Savage was overrated. It wasn't until later when I caught up with his history that I finally understood what everyone was raving about. For a while I even had a framed poster of Savage on my wall (until my girlfriend made me take it down).

Did the WWE convince youngsters that Savage sucked? Well, there was the whole Huckster/Nacho Man business, with which I wholeheartedly agreed at the time, but that's really all they did. It only enforced what I was already thinking and I was thinking it way before they started their propaganda. And after they ceased the whole Nacho Man thing they never slandered him again, as far as I know. If anything, they ignored him as best they could. Did ignoring him convince youngsters that he didn't matter? Maybe a little. I personally think that his body of work of the last 10+ years of his career did far more damage.

 

[RicSpade]

If anything seemed discounted it wasn't because Savage wasn't good or anything like that it was the way things had a fallout between him and Vince, remember how Vince felt when he was like Savage you'll be missed when he left WWF and then he showed up on WCW. Then you account how it seemed like Savage was trying to help put WWF out of business so WM12 we saw Huckster vs. Nacho Man crap. So right there the next shot was fired. Then Savage was so bitter at some point he made all the comments about Triple H and Stephanie after Hunter made some negative comments about Savage.

Now before Savage died they obviously reconsiled because Savage started doing some work with WWE again with some of the toyline, but when you have 2 sides who had animosity towards each other they will discredit or erase you for a time being. CM Punk is in a similar situation, Brock was in the situation when he walked out of his contract to play football, Rey Mysterio will probably be another example as well as Del Rio.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

Bob Holly joined WWE in 1994, when Stephanie was 17 years old. A bit different to an impressionable 14yr old.

I've not seen the latest Macho Man documentary but I highly doubt Dusty Rhodes implicated that Savage was a paedophile. First and foremost as it was a WWE production, so something as negative as that (especially unproven) they wouldn't want to publically air - especially as it allegedly involves the boss' daughter! Secondly, and admittedly I'm assuming the law is similar in the US to the UK, but the Jimmy Saville (another ex-wrestler) case proves that police can investigate allegations of paedophilic activity posthumously. If Rhodes and others alleged Savage was a paedophile, I'm sure the police investigation would have started by now.

As I say, I haven't seen the documentary, but I'd like to ask those that have, especially those that are using it to 'prove' Savage's guilt, can you please provide a word-for-word transcript of what Rhodes said, that way we can all judge.

There's also the very real FACT that if Vince was aware of this being true, there is NO WAY he would be welcoming Savage into the Hall of Fame, regardless of how many fans wanted it. Some things are simply more important than business.

I think the more likely explanation is what THTRobTaylor put forward: the feeling of leaving a 'sinking ship', and taking a massive endorsement deal with him, probably soured the relationship between Vince and Savage. But I'm sure there were at least a couple of occasions that WWE reached out to Savage after he left. Is it simply possible that the major grievances were on Savage's side, not Vince's? Perhaps he simply did not want to rejoin WWE - after all, they had made clear they saw him more as a commentator when WCW were content to use him in the ring.

 

[TheLittleOne]

They do airbrush their history but not always for the reasons you think.



BUT

That would be without a lot of the crutches WWE relies on today and for the last 15 years plus... Kids are used to a different set of rules/standards. Savage never went through tables, but he did the leaping clothesline over the top rope...which in it's day was one of the pinnacle highspots. He never was in a Cell or Ladder match, never took an AA or wrestled many of the kids "point of reference guys", he never fought Shawn, or Hunter, or Rock or Austin... anyone who they would really "know" other than Hogan and maybe Duthy now. Everyone points to Savage/Steamboat... but how many of today's kids would "get that match", they're used to how WWE does it now... Would they see the greatness in that match? or would they just see it as "boring and dated"?

In reality this is why NXT is doing what it's doing... it's reducating younger fans to appreciate the old WWF style, by dressing it up as new... so when they see older matches on the Network it makes sense to them without 5 moves of doom, comebacks, botches etc being somethign they are looking for. NXT is teaching kids about how guys like Randy Savage did it... telling the story first...

i could say so much regarding imo the best overall performer in wwe history, along with being apart of the longest best story ever told ( randy & Liz 85-92) and drawing so much emotion in each feud ( roberts, flair, honky, warrior, hulk, ...) BUT i want to make it clear so the younger fans can use youtube & or network & witness classic great wrestling..

you might have simply made a mistake but Savage did wrestle HBK, few times.. as a young face while in "The Rockers" HBK Battled a heel Macho King and had some classic battles after WM8 when SAVAGE was a Face & CHAMP with Elizabeth in his corner vs a young upcoming Heel in HBK with Sherri in his corner.. also when SAVAGE teamed Up with Bret to battle Flair & HBK in 92
and Savage did wrestle Steve Austin.. in wcw when steve was " stunning"!!

to answer the topic, YES the wwe failed to honor Savage until almost too late. his first dvd came out but was just striker & a diva talking about him.. Luckily the little nostalgia we did get which was UBER-EPIC- AWESOME was seeing RANDY SAVAGE appear on the Mattel video at SDCC .. his death occurred soon after, i do believe we would have seen more since the comic con audience popped so loud and then his mattel figure sales were so great he has almost as many releases as cena!! ( almost!!)

now for you younger fans that didnt grow up with Macho Man every saturday & sunday morning, or on Primetime Monday nights ( pre-raw era) or tuesday night titans he was apart of many great segments besides matches.. his promos as we all know were so damn entertaining but also drew box office and emotions from fans for his feud.. when he appeared backstage with mean gene or with JESSE on Saturday Night's Main Event or on the weekend with BROTHER LOVE his words and amazing presence SOLD YOU.. to hate him or love him but you Loved to hate him...
all of you probably know his ppv matches from WM, Surv,Ser.,SummerSlam, Rumbles... i would recommend his house show matches specifically a rematch with HULK after WM5 at MSG then again after WM5 in FRANCE ( when they used the glass tunnel entrance) classic matches.. also msg w/ dibiase, snme as a face battled Bret Hart to get revenge when Bret & Anvil helped Honky push down Miss Elizabeth and smash the guitar over randy's head ( big deal back then!).. his post WM8 european tour with HBK produced a classic match from england for the wwe title Watch it!

i could go on and on. i just wanted to share some memories for those of you my age (31) who remember all the great matches & interviews & gear! as well as make sure younger fans look up not just the WM matches but he gave 100% at house shows when others turned it down a notch. had great post WM4 cage match w/ dibiase @ msg house show. great match in 89 with Owen Hart as the blue blazer.. every few seconds another match comes to mind so i will stop here and just say he was my favorite and if he could get matches of the night at a wrestlemania with warrior.. he was that good.. walked on his toes! gliding over that top rope with ease.. always had the best gear, and evolving the Look to go with his current gimmick.. imo he was Hulk's best feud/ enemy during hulkamania run. they battled in 85 86 & 87 alot at house shows. their story began in 88 they let hogan rub randy at WM4 but we all saw SAVAGE didnt need the rub as he proved with FOUR good matches.. but they knew to team them up as mega powers would draw for the 1st summerslam against the mega bucks ( Dibiase & Andre) & 88 Survivor Series finally on Main event when battling twin towers ( great under rated team of bossman & Akeem w/ SLICKSTER) Savage saw " the lust" in hulks eyes for liz when hulk tried to save her .. they battled in a mock up medical area backstage and WM returned to the historic Atlantic City Boardwalk Convention Hall ( pka Trump Plaza) and the MEGA POWERS exploded!! good match, great pre match promos both at event at weeks leading up to it on tv..

that what i miss these days instead of boring in ring promo, we need more quicker backstage interviews AND segments like MiZ TV which gives good mic guys chance to get over while putting over another feud..for example how MIZ had Paul Heyman on " MIZ TV" at fastlane.. paul helped increase the feud with MIZ & San..Mizdow while Miz Helped increase importance of Paul Heyman & his Client ..the beast, the champ. with 3 freakin hours of raw, 2 of smackdown, superstars, main event, the network. we should get atleast one more heel talker have his own " show".. they had a great thing goin back with abraham washington yrs ago...

who agrees with the last idea..??

i was fortunate enough in my career to have some talks on long car rides with some guys who worked with randy in wwe or wcw.. it seems he was well respected and just loved the biz and had EXTREME passion for the whole thing including kayfabe... and would not let himself be disrespected and cared greatly for liz while together & regretted her getting into the business. but it worked. i believe the way he left and what vince & wwe was going through at the time really made vince sad & mad.. he relied on savage. & planned on using him with Bret & HBK & Diesel & Razor in the main event.

go anywhere and SAY OOOOOOOOHHHH YEA, Dig It?

if i could change one thing during attitude era, i would have brought savage back to WWE in 1999 when he began shaving his head, blacked out beard and new black & silver madness gear, embraced hip hop.. he could have done some great work w/ Rock & Austin & HHH & Taker & Foley and hopefully imagine if he stayed till 02 03 we could have seen Savage vs Cena, Savage vs Orton imagine the possibilities, BUT his Body of work speaks for itself and stands the test of time.

History Beckons the Macho Man.