Forgiveness

[HBK-aholic]

Watching a few videos in my Philosophy, Theology and Ethics class, we got on to the subject of forgiveness, and whether everyone deserves to be forgiven for their wrong-doings. Among the guests on the show we had a man who'd child was killed by a drunk driver, a woman whose daughter was a victim of Myra Hindley, and a woman who had been raped in front of her father and boyfriend at gunpoint.

The rape victim stated she'd forgiven her attacker, because it wasn't healthy for HER to hold the hatred inside her, and she could only move on with forgiveness, and even prayed for her attacker. Yet the woman whose daughter was killed said she could never, ever forgive her childs life been taken and campaigned furiously to make sure the killer died in prison (She got this wish). What was interesting, however, was Myra Hindley apparently turning back to Catholicism during her years in prison. Some thought this meant she should be forgiven. Personally, I think this was a stupid attempt at being let into heaven when she died and being granted forgiveness by some.

Anyway, what do you think about this subject? I say there are some things that are unforgivable - rape and murder of your child. I'd never, ever be able to forgive these things, they deserve to have hatred directed towards them and then suffer in hell. However, did the woman have a point when she said these thoughts aren't healthy? Would you forgive these crimes? What other things are unforgivable to you?

 

[Ferbian]

While I can see both the mother who's daughter was a victim of Myra Hindley (can't say I know of her although) and I can see the point of the rape victim, it can be very hard to forgive someone all depending on the impact of the incident, and some things will take a strong mind (in my opinion) to truly forgive and move on, without just putting words on the forgiveness, but truly forgiving deep inside yourself.

I will say although, I've had situations where I highly doubted my ability to forgive a person, but in the end, I must admit I managed to move on, and forget about them, not forget about the things the people did that clearly impacted my life, but I choose to leave it behind me still, remaining neutral towards it in a matter that I would choose to forgive them if they asked for it or gave me a reason to, but I would as stated above, remain neutral and indifferent about them, perhaps even non-caring of their existence if they have or had chosen to remain silent with their attempt to be granted forgiveness.

But in the end, I will believe that any person to his or her own thing, it's their choice whether forgiveness should be granted, or if it should not, and I must admit I won't judge the mother of the killed daughter if she never forgives, and I don't blame the rape victim who did forgive.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

The rape victim stated she'd forgiven her attacker, because it wasn't healthy for HER to hold the hatred inside her, and she could only move on with forgiveness, and even prayed for her attacker. Yet the woman whose daughter was killed said she could never, ever forgive her childs life been taken and campaigned furiously to make sure the killer died in prison (She got this wish). What was interesting, however, was Myra Hindley apparently turning back to Catholicism during her years in prison. Some thought this meant she should be forgiven. Personally, I think this was a stupid attempt at being let into heaven when she died and being granted forgiveness by some.

I don't think forgiveness works in a way where you are ONLY forgiving someone because it's unhealthy for YOU to have hatred. You can only really forgive someone if they are truly sorry for what they've done, and you no longer place the blame on them because of it. Like, if Myra Hindley TRULY and sincerely turned to Catholicism, and because of this, realized the errors of her life, and asked for forgiveness from both God and the families she tore apart, and the families forgave her BECAUSE of this (and not to better themselves), then that could be considered true forgiveness, if she was willing to forgive. Otherwise, this concept of "forgiveness" is just a way to make people feel better about themselves, and to make sure their sadness and depression is validated.

In any case, say someone killed my child, by accident. Say, this person was religious, and came to be with a sincere apology, crying and pleading for my forgiveness. While it wouldn't alleviate my extreme sadness for my family member's passing, I would be able to forgive the person who caused the tragedy.

However, if someone killed a family member in cold blood, like Myra Hindley did, fuck no, I'd want her to rot in prison. Even if she did truly ask for forgiveness.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Sometimes it is just really tough to forgive people. Refusing to forgive someone is a normal thought that we all experience at one point or another. However, at the same time.... wanting revenge isn't healthy. Wishing for bad things to happen to others can eventually cause someone to grow extremely bitter, and to be upset to the point of it messing up other aspects of their life. The right thing to do is to always forgive. Sometimes people cannot forgive everything. That's understandable. People also get angry enough to say things that they do not truly mean.

My personal belief is that anyone can be forgiven of any act, but forgiving someone and letting them be a part of your life again are two entirely different things. There are very few things I view as "unforgivable". Killing someone (for any reason other than self defense or protection of others), rape, destroying personal property that cannot be replaced, and cheating on a significant other. Those are the only things I can think of that I would struggle with forgiving, and out of that list I have only dealt with being cheated on. The others are far worse and I hope I never experience them, or that any of my friends or family do either. I would still try my hardest to truly forgive the person who did it though because I believe that we should always forgive people rather than be so quick to act judgmental.

 

[antfarm612]

Rape, murder, and child molestation are what I consider unforgiveable. Those are lines that once you cross, there is no going back. Rape/molestation victims are scarred for life, and murder, well, obviously there is no going back after that.

In those situations, I don't think you have to forgive to move on. I think you can simply accept it and put it behind you without forgiving the offender.

EDIT -- On the other hand, I've always wondered what it must be like to be a murderer/rapist, how fucked up you have to be in the head. Sometimes I feel sorry for people like that. They clearly have no sense of compassion or capacity for love.

 

[Ferbian]

. Rape/molestation victims are scarred for life, and murder, well, obviously there is no going back after that.

I will argue that, certainly it can be damaging for a person in his or her right state of mental awareness to be molested and raped no matter how it's handled, but as you clearly can see in Becca's original post, it shows that there's a possibility to move on from being a rape victim.
And then you should also try to take into consideration the girls (mainly girls I'm taking) could possibly have been the victim of rape in a state of being drunk out of her mind, where there could easily be a possibility that she won't remember a thing, or even take it as far as considering it rape, now I'm not arguing that being drunk and raped has the same result every time and that she will not remember a thing the next day, but I'm saying the possibility is there.

EDIT -- On the other hand, I've always wondered what it must be like to be a murderer/rapist, how fucked up you have to be in the head. Sometimes I feel sorry for people like that. They clearly have no sense of compassion or capacity for love.

I doubt a rapist or murderer is unable to show some kind of love, seeing as murders happen out of jealousy, and I guess rape can be the exact same, being in love with a girl or a guy to the end of where it draws into a psychotic state of rage that will cause murder or rape.

I believe not all murders etc. will be damaged to the extent that they will be unable to show emotions, or regret of their actions, seeing to the fact that not every murderer is necessarily a serial murder where as the lack of emotions can certainly be argued, murders are encountered pretty much on a daily basic I could imagine, and I do believe that a fair percentage of those murders aren't necessarily caused from hatred neither, could also come from accidents such as drunk driver, a normal driver just driving too fast etc. there's many accidental ways of murdering someone without wanting to do that, and I believe those people would therefore be marked "murder" yet wouldn't be lacking the ability to show emotions.

 

[Vin Diesel]

You don't really forget these things. You can't. They're embedded forever in your brain.You can trick yourself into thinking, "Yes, I forgive him/her and now I'm at peace". I think it all boils down to how spiritual/religious you tend to be. I've seen people forgiving others for some very cruel things, in the hope that *some day*, maybe even after death, God or some other supernatural being will take care of that and make things right.

And yes, not forgiving/forgetting about these things do a great deal of damage to oneself; of course it's unhealthy. But I will not forgive a rapist or a murderer just because I hope that after they die, they'll go to a "bad place" and suffer. I'd rather live in a spiritual turmoil for the rest of my live.

What other things are unforgivable for me? Child raping. Murdering innocents. Cruelty towards senior citizens.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

My thoughts on this may differ from many, but I think Forgiveness gets thrown around too much and not used in the most important of cases.

Forgiveness to me is to have peace of mind from whatever grievances were caused. And to have this peace there are procedures that should be enacted. To recieve Forgiveness you should:

1. Actually feel sorry for whatever you did wrong.
2. Want to make up for whatever you did wrong.
3. Willing to pay the price for whatever you did wrong.
4. Willing to find peace for whatever you did wrong.

1 & 2 coincide but are two different things at once. Many politicians, celebrities, etc do things that can be seen in the public eye and once viewed there, they try to gain the fans or people's favor back by addressing an apology in some form. Whether or not they truly feel that way and want to do something about it is really up to them.

2 & 3 coincide but once again are two different things. We can all proclaim how we want to make up/give said victim whatever it is they desire to earn their Forgiveness, but another thing entirely when it comes down to paying the price, whether that be jailtime or something else. It really comes down to whether or not you are willing to do whatever it takes to set things right.

Number 4 is a bit out-there to some I suppose, but it really just boils down to really forgiving yourself. No one wants to live with regret. Gaining Forgiveness from someone is one thing, but to forgive oneself can be harder. This is really where you can tell if you're a human being; to be able to feel true regret for your actions and everything you have done and have to battle yourself on how it effects you.

Now as that "F" word goes, it really depends on the individual. Many are ready to forgive while others are not. But to say nothing is forgivable is wrong. Someone, somewhere, will forgive whoever while we would not.

 

[Loveless]

Watching a few videos in my Philosophy, Theology and Ethics class, we got on to the subject of forgiveness, and whether everyone deserves to be forgiven for their wrong-doings.

Deserves forgiveness is such a strange term. You can't do something bad and then feel like you're owed forgiveness because you think you've made up for it, it simply doesn't work like that.
OK so does anyone deserve forgiveness? I'm going to say no, it's a gift that should only be given out of choice by the victim.

The rape victim stated she'd forgiven her attacker, because it wasn't healthy for HER to hold the hatred inside her, and she could only move on with forgiveness, and even prayed for her attacker.

OK, good example.

Yet the woman whose daughter was killed said she could never, ever forgive her childs life been taken and campaigned furiously to make sure the killer died in prison (She got this wish).

Her choice. Strangely I think it's easier or more necessary to forgive if you're the victim, there's more motivation for you to get on with your life.

What was interesting, however, was Myra Hindley apparently turning back to Catholicism during her years in prison. Some thought this meant she should be forgiven. Personally, I think this was a stupid attempt at being let into heaven when she died and being granted forgiveness by some.

I'll ignore that it might have been a politically motivated choice.
Turning to religion is more about personal forgiveness or redemption and in my opinion, totally selfish and self-motivated because it's all for your own good.
Now getting away from religion. Your guilt is your punishment for what you've done and actively trying to rid yourself of that guilt to end your suffering is also selfish. So I guess my view is anyone seeking forgiveness doesn't deserve it, which I suppose would explain why I'm so unforgiving. I guess the burden is entirely on the victim (and naturally some just want to move on so give it, even when it's not legitimate or deserved).
I don't think anything should be forgiven unless they're truly sorry and you can only be truly sorry when you've suffered the guilt.

Anyway, what do you think about this subject? I say there are some things that are unforgivable - rape and murder of your child. I'd never, ever be able to forgive these things, they deserve to have hatred directed towards them and then suffer in hell. However, did the woman have a point when she said these thoughts aren't healthy? Would you forgive these crimes? What other things are unforgivable to you?

I think I've rambled incoherently on it
It's my opinion that anything can be forgiven but it's a personal choice, there's no should or shouldn't.
Hmmm the woman has got a point that it's not healthy but, at the same time, I could argue that it's easier to be angry that upset. You can have your anger and vengeance and they'll get you through terrible times until you're ready to deal with things properly. People say anger doesn't help and in itself it doesn't, but it can allow you time to gain perspective.
As I've said I'm not forgiving but that's generally because it's so rare that people are genuinely sorry. I'm a perceptive bastard and I know when I'm being lied to. If you can show remorse then so can I but if you're not sorry then I'll make sure you soon will be.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Forgiveness is all a matter of personal perspective. What is it in man or woman that allows us to hold onto pain as tightly as we can or allows us to let it go and even forgive the source of such pain? Is it a matter of personal choice? Divine insight? I don't think it's something that anyone can truly answer. There are people that have come to be defined by the wrongs done to them by others. I've known families that have literally been torn apart by the murder of a child. The grief is so difficult to bear as is the hatred for the one responsible for the murder. But, for some, the hatred is all that they have left. I couldn't personally criticize someone for holding onto such hate, wanting to see a murder responsible for the murder of their husband or wife or son or daughter die in prison. I haven't been in that sort of position myself, so I can't say how I would feel or how I wouldn't.

There are some people that seem to recognize that holding onto their pain and their hatred puts them almost into a state of living death as it were. They're able to let go and move on to some degree. Does that make them a better person? I don't think so. It MIGHT make them a stronger person, for maybe they have something else in their lives to hold onto. Maybe they have a source of strength whether it be God, Allah, Buddha, Jehova or whatever. If one can forgive murder or rape, it's a remarkable thing to behold even if it's an opinion you don't share