Flair Region, St. Louis Subregion, First Round: (14) Mil Mascaras vs. (19) JBL

[HBK-aholic]

This is a first round match in the Flair Region, St. Louis Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Scottrade Center in St. Louis, Missouri.

#14. Mil Mascaras

Vs.

#19. John Bradshaw Layfield


​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Yes! The dream match. Two bitter rivals squaring off one on one for the first and possibly final time.

JBL talks about Mil on commentary a fucking lot. Did you know Mil Mascaras is Del Rio's uncle? Did you know Mil owes JBL money? Did you know Mil once eliminated himself from the Royal Rumble? Because if not JBL will be sure to remind you of these things when he rambles during a Del Rio match on Monday nights.

Bradshaw was a career lowcard act until the APA, when he became decently over and won a couple tag titles. Then out of nowhere, he became JBL, one of the better heels of the brand split. Like who saw that coming? 290+ days as champion is nothing to scoff at, and he did most of it in the most cowardly way possible.

Mil was a star in Mexico, and a lot of it was through is own doing. By that I mean he was an asshole who pushed his old ass at the expense of young talent. His disregard for anyone but himself resulted in a lot of movie spots and title reigns in ol Mexico, and I think despite that history will look more favorably on Mil than JBL.

So vote Mil, even if Mick Foley thinks he is an asshole.

 

[NSL]

I'm going with Mil Mascaras here. JBL, within the JBL gimmick, achieved a lot, but that was a small snippet of his career. Once his time at the top came to an end, he wasn't really important anymore, and retired after what was barely a match against Mysterio. He had too long of a career before hitting the pinnacle, where he accomplished nothing, until being put into the Acolytes and APA, and even then, didn't really accomplish much of note, other than finally being entertaining.

Mascaras is a legend for a reason. He's great in the ring, and his list of titles and accomplishments really speaks for itself.

 

[Tastycles]

Mil Mascaras is an ********. But so is JBL. Just ask The Miz and the best promo of the last 10 years. Mascaras used to come to America and get success, JBL had literally none except for 2004, the year when shit was thrown at the wall to see if it would stick. It didn't. JBL is a great tag wrestler and a good commentator, Mascaras is one of the best luchadors ever. Mascaras wins.

 

[NSL]

Mil Mascaras is an ********. But so is JBL. Just ask The Miz and the best promo of the last 10 years. Mascaras used to come to America and get success, JBL had literally none except for 2004, the year when shit was thrown at the wall to see if it would stick. It didn't. JBL is a great tag wrestler and a good commentator, Mascaras is one of the best luchadors ever. Mascaras wins.

From some of the behind the scenes stories I've heard about JBL, I'd say he's the biggest asshole of the last 15-20 years. And, JBL as a "great" tag wrestler may be over-selling it. I liked the Acolytes, but I don't think they were ever the alpha dog in the pound when it came to tag team wrestling; in fact they were just nice to have around, and made a good APA gimmick work for as long as possible.

 

[nightmare]

Um, who cares what Mil did in Taco Town? This is the USA & JBL is not going down here. "Why nightmare, " you ask. "What the hell are you talking about in such a racist fashion?"

I'll tell you. In English. JBL will cheat like a motherfucker and walk away with this one. He was in a great tag team & people forget that he can be a tough son of a bitch when needed, but it wasnt until he became JBL that he truly became awesome. During his run at the top he did anything he could to keep his belt. He cheated and outsmarted the some of the biggest and best stars of his time by being an underhanded and sneaky bastard.


This match would be no different. He cuts a promo on the Mexican hero Mil, pisses off the fans, the match goes back and forth with each guy getting their licks in- but in the end JBL finds a way to steal a win. Besides drinking beer, cheating is what JBL does best. His great run at the top was started by hunting immigrants & defeating another wrestling hero with a Mexican heritage- Eddie.

JBL wins.

 

[Sai the Uganda Guy]

Mil Mascaras is an all-time great, but JBL's time on top consisted of him taking out his opponents by any means necessary. Mil in his own right is a prick, but JBL will find a way to snatch a win right from under Mascaras.
Vote JBL.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I'm going with JBL if only for pure enjoyment.

He's one of my all time favorite heels and he was great for around 2 years. Longest reigning WWE Champion in Smackdown history. He wears scars as badges of honor. He smells like smoke cause he's been through fire.

Vote JBL.

 

[enviousdominous]

JBL, because he's not Mil Mascaras.

We vote for whatever reasons suit us, I'm voting because I really really want to see someone defeat Mil Mascaras. An easy option would be to just click back to a previous tournament, but this one is a little more special.

Both men have massive egos and histories of being colossal douchebags. On principle, I despise JBL a little less than I do Mil Mascaras. While Mil has an amazing record, his matches weren't that great. Mil no-sells, improvises spots and wins because he's Mil Mascaras. JBL laid down for Rey in what looked like a squash match, which only encourages me to stop hating him so much.

I'm squarely in the corner that does the least damage to my soul, vote JBL.

 

[NSL]

While Mil has an amazing record, his matches weren't that great.

I'd argue that JBL had many more "not that great" matches than Mil did. Even in his run at the top, he wasn't exactly burning the place down with 5-star match after 5-star match. His job to Rey was because he was retiring. Any other circumstance, and I don't think that happens.

 

[nightmare]

This tie will not stand. A vote for JBL is a vote against dirty drinking water & the cartel. Do what is right people.

 

[NSL]

This tie will not stand. A vote for JBL is a vote against dirty drinking water & the cartel. Do what is right people.

You have a point...At his best, in a feud against a masked luchador, JBL got pinned in (I believe) 24 seconds, at WrestleMania, in a title match? I would assume that would translate to this match as well, given how much more important Mascaras is to lucha libre than Rey Mysterio...

 

[OYDK]

You have a point...At his best, in a feud against a masked luchador, JBL got pinned in (I believe) 24 seconds, at WrestleMania, in a title match? I would assume that would translate to this match as well, given how much more important Mascaras is to lucha libre than Rey Mysterio...

Wow, it was actually this exact thought that swayed my vote to Mil. JBL was notorious for losing to Rey, there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Plus his "I hate Mexicans" persona would have been great fodder for someone like Mascaras.

 

[nightmare]

So you take a stance based on something that happened at the end of his career vs JBL starting off his run at the top against a better Mexican wrestler?

Interesting, but weak. All the masks and terrible Spanish movies in the world are not enough to defeat a man like JBL. He has shown us that you can be a successful man by cheating against legendary wrestlers. Why would this be any different?

 

[NSL]

So you take a stance based on something that happened at the end of his career vs JBL starting off his run at the top against a better Mexican wrestler?

I'm talking about masked luchadors. Eddie was great, but he didn't even reach the heights Rey reached anyway.

Interesting, but weak. All the masks and terrible Spanish movies in the world are not enough to defeat a man like JBL. He has shown us that you can be a successful man by cheating against legendary wrestlers. Why would this be any different?

Legendary? Great, yes. But what legends did he beat? The point still stands that on a grand stage, against a luchador, JBL is 0-1, in historic fashion.

 

[SSJPhenom]

He beat the Undertaker. That's a legend. Eddie is a legend, too.

 

[NSL]

He beat the Undertaker. That's a legend. Eddie is a legend, too.

I'll stand corrected on him beating a beginning-to-age Undertaker, but Eddie is not a legend. He's a great, but he's not in the same league as Hogan or Flair.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I enjoy JBL, but take away his one Smackdown title run and what do you have? A career loward act who is famous for being a complete dick to people backstage.

Mil is the correct vote here.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

How is this close, really JB fucking L!

You people need to look at the 00s for the shitfest it was not called John Cena for professional wrestling.

 

[nightmare]

I'm talking about masked luchadors. Eddie was great, but he didn't even reach the heights Rey reached anyway.

Yes, because masks have magical Aztec powers that unmasked Mexicans stars do not get.

And what heights? Mysterio had 3 title runs combined that equaled one of Eddie's. Plus his first was clearly had a bit to do with Eddie passing and his third was lost within an hour.

Legendary? Great, yes. But what legends did he beat? The point still stands that on a grand stage, against a luchador, JBL is 0-1, in historic fashion.

He beat a few & I am pretty sure Eddie wrestled a lucha style. JBL beat him too.

That last argument was kind of weak sauce, NSL. You can do better.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Legendary? Great, yes. But what legends did he beat? The point still stands that on a grand stage, against a luchador, JBL is 0-1, in historic fashion.

From the Dragon-ADR thread:

Del Rio's win over Cena, while Cena was on the way out, doesn't compare to Steamboat beating Savage, on the biggest stage, in what is often referred to as the greatest match of all-time.

For my own reference, are WrestleMania wins going to be your main barometer for who should win?

Del Rio beating Cena before he heads off for surgery has little traction in one argument, but an obvious put-over retirement job for Mysterio by JBL has major traction in another. Are you sure?

Anyway, JBL was brave enough to fight Godzilla in Japan so fuck Milly Mascara until he at least tries to slap King Kong.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Anyway, JBL was brave enough to fight Godzilla in Japan so fuck Milly Mascara until he at least tries to slap King Kong.

Mil was brave enough to fight a mummy. He definitely had some balls on him.

 

[JGlass]

There's not much to say about Mil Mascaras that will translate to a student of modern wrestling. Mil Mascaras doesn't have any major American titles to his name and, from what I understand, the best years of his career took place before many of the big international names you are more familiar with were making their rounds.

What you should know about Mil Mascaras is that he was largely responsible for making the luchador phenomenon go global. He was a very likable, charming, exciting talent that audiences all over the world wanted to watch.

On the other hand, we have JBL, a guy who's whole career was spent being a stepping stone for guys that were better than him (and there are probably well over a dozen guys he wrestled that are far superior to JBL). In the past, people have pointed to how well he executed this role as a support for why he should win his matches... but that's stupid. That would be like saying Jim Kelly's Bills should win a theoretical Super Bowl because they failed to win one so many times.

Others point to his lengthy World Heavyweight Championship reign as evidence that JBL isn't the career loser that many (rightfully) make him out to be. But let's talk about that run, shall we?

JBL did not have a single clean PPV win during that title reign. Not one. The closest he came was at the Royal Rumble where he had his minions take out Big Show and help him back to the ring where he could take advantage of a weakened Kurt Angle. I guess you can make the argument that he won his Barbed Wire Steel Cage match against Big Show cleanly, but that's the infamous match where JBL was chokeslammed through the mat and climbed out underneath the ring to get the win.

And the whole title reign was just a set up for John Cena to win his first world title at WrestleMania. It was designed not to make JBL look good or dominant, but to avoid making any of their other talent look bad and eventually make John Cena into a top talent... and it worked out great! Because JBL is great at one thing, and one thing only: being a loser.

JBL continues his legacy of losing by losing this match.

Vote Mil Mascaras.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

At his best, in a feud against a masked luchador, JBL got pinned in (I believe) 24 seconds, at WrestleMania, in a title match? I would assume that would translate to this match as well, given how much more important Mascaras is to lucha libre than Rey Mysterio...

JBL was notorious for losing to Rey

JBL lost to Rey in both of his retirement angles. It's completely unreasonable for both of you to act like it was just a commonplace thing. This was the end of his career and he left on his back just like almost every guy who's ever stepped foot in the ring. A more comparable situation is JBL beating Eddie Guerrero when he was on top of the world in the biggest push of his career. JBL would've done the same to Mil Mascaras, ESPECIALLY since we're in the U.S. and not in Mexico.

 

[NSL]

Yes, because masks have magical Aztec powers that unmasked Mexicans stars do not get.

In lucha libre...basically. That's why it's such a shame when they lose their mask, and generally aren't nearly as important afterward.

Del Rio beating Cena before he heads off for surgery has little traction in one argument, but an obvious put-over retirement job for Mysterio by JBL has major traction in another. Are you sure?

Did Rey need to be "put over"? Really? And, JBL really could have done more than he did, since he wasn't hurt. The match was over almost instantly.