Flair Region, Lexington Subregion, First Round: (16)Roman Reigns vs. (17)Verne Gagne

[HBK-aholic]

This is a first round match in the Flair Region, Lexington Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Rupp Arena in Lexington, Kentucky.

#16. Roman Reigns


Vs.

#17. Verne Gagne


​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted

 

[Bernkastel]

Here we have a man that has yet to really break out on his own despite being comfortably groomed for the top spot, versus a man that that not only forged his own path as the US heavyweight champion, broke out on his own when he wasn't given the chance to shine at the top of the NWA mountain, and changed the course of wrestling history by establishing his own brand of wrestling in the AWA.

Do I really have to run down Verne Gagne's accomplishments here? Do I really have to point out how big and respected a star he was before he founded his version of the AWA? Do I have to mention how big of a powerhouse the AWA grew to be under his watch and star power? Do I really have to point out his lasting impact on the industry having found, trained, and groomed some of the all times greats such as Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan? Do I really have to point out how laughable it is to vote Roman Reigns over a legit all time great who beat everyone, was immensely popular in all corners of the US and dominated all over the world for an extended period of time?

No, I don't think I do. Verne defeats the young upstart and it's really not even close.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

In agreement with Echelon on this one.

Gagne takes this comfortably, although I would argue that Reigns is at a disadvantage that Gagne never had, and that is the rise of insider information and wrestling journalism. The primary reason that Reigns has been struggling as a top face within the company is because everyone in the IWC is aware that Reigns is being forged into a top star, and due to their selective criteria of who warrants what, they reject this vehemently. You can make arguments that Reigns isn't ready for his position, which aren't necessarily false, but from an objective booking perception, Reigns is for the most part, being booked strongly; his failure is stemming from third-party influence.

Gagne and the people of his time never had this problem because wrestling was taken far more seriously, which you can perceive as a blessing or a curse depending on your viewpoint on the matter. I can't guarantee that Gagne would have received the same treatment as Reigns if information was as widespread as it is today, but Gagne wasn't hampered by this third-party influence.

With that said, Gagne has a resume that few can match in the wrestling industry, and it remains to be seen whether Reigns can transition into a top guy. Gagne takes this, and it's an easy decision, even disregarding Reigns's disadvantages.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

What era are these two fighting in? If it's today's era than Verne Gagne gets booed harder than Roman Reigns everytime. He comes from an era of 50 forearm shots to the chest, a 6 minute submission or headlock on the mat and a pretty unwatchable match right after that. I'm sure back in the day a forearm blast to the chest was all the rage, a 6 minute headlock lying on the mat was electrifying to the crowds of that era....but it would result in empty cups and popcorn containers thrown in the ring in today's world. There's the problem when you have wrestlers fighting from vastly different eras. Would Roman Reigns stand a chance back in Vern's day? Probably not considering booking circumstances and the like. Vern in today's era wouldn't last, he doesn't have what today's wrestling fan yearns for, which is completely different fan from his era would root for. Thus I doubt he'd win any championships in this era.

So I expect a full machine gun retaliation for this when I say Roman Reigns wins.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I think it's safe to say Reigns is absolutely fucked in this match. He's a rising star and has a very bright career ahead of him but we're talking about a top wrestler for close to 20 years, 1 of the longest world title reigns in history, a technical magician, and a 10 time world champion. Verne might be one of the only guys in this tournament worse on the mic than Roman Reigns but he was charismatic nonetheless and would wrestle circles around Reigns any day of the week, even after he had a 60 minute draw with Bockwinkel.

Reigns maybe the future of WWE and 5-10 years down the road this match could be a hell of a lot closer but that's not today and in current times Verne would destroy Reigns.

Verne wins this and quite easily I may add.

 

[Bernkastel]

What era are these two fighting in? If it's today's era than Verne Gagne gets booed harder than Roman Reigns everytime. He comes from an era of 50 forearm shots to the chest, a 6 minute submission or headlock on the mat and a pretty unwatchable match right after that. I'm sure back in the day a forearm blast to the chest was all the rage, a 6 minute headlock lying on the mat was electrifying to the crowds of that era....but it would result in empty cups and popcorn containers thrown in the ring in today's world. There's the problem when you have wrestlers fighting from vastly different eras. Would Roman Reigns stand a chance back in Vern's day? Probably not considering booking circumstances and the like. Vern in today's era wouldn't last, he doesn't have what today's wrestling fan yearns for, which is completely different fan from his era would root for. Thus I doubt he'd win any championships in this era.

So I expect a full machine gun retaliation for this when I say Roman Reigns wins.

It's in the "Flair" region so there's a good chance that it would not be in today's era. But it wouldn't matter as era's are supposed to be normalized. Otherwise there wouldn't be any point in having pre-modern and modern wrestlers in the same tournament.

Gagne working slower pace matches then Reigns is irrelevent. Fans back then cheered as much as... well half of what the fans do for Reigns today. So even if you find Gagne's matches boring that is not an objective way of approaching this match.

And why wouldn't Verne Gagne be successful in today's era? He had plenty of charisma. He had personality. He was legitimate. And he was a great worker. Are you saying today's fans don't appreciate any of those things? As far as Reigns being unsuccessful during the 50's - 70's when Verne was prominent; maybe. But even if the AWA or NWA didn't want to use him the WWE was already pushing show wrestlers by that point.

You really haven't provided any valid reason for why Roman would win, other than he's a modern wrestler.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

It's in the "Flair" region so there's a good chance that it would not be in today's era. But it wouldn't matter as era's are supposed to be normalized. Otherwise there wouldn't be any point in having pre-modern and modern wrestlers in the same tournament.

Gagne working slower pace matches then Reigns is irrelevent. Fans back then cheered as much as... well half of what the fans do for Reigns today. So even if you find Gagne's matches boring that is not an objective way of approaching this match.

And why wouldn't Verne Gagne be successful in today's era? He had plenty of charisma. He had personality. He was legitimate. And he was a great worker. Are you saying today's fans don't appreciate any of those things? As far as Reigns being unsuccessful during the 50's - 70's when Verne was prominent; maybe. But even if the AWA or NWA didn't want to use him the WWE was already pushing show wrestlers by that point.

You really haven't provided any valid reason for why Roman would win, other than he's a modern wrestler.

I really can't see Vern getting any cheers from a wrestling audience today. How would a company put any titles on him if he got zero reactions from the fans with his particular style in the ring in today's world. He wouldn't get any backing from behind the scenes if he's boring the hell out of crowds every week. He'd be the focal point of IWC hate and he'd slide down the card as a result. That's the problem I have if Eras are going to be separated this far. It's not really fair to both wrestlers because of multiple era factors involved. So Roman spears Vern for the win to make today's fans happier that the guy they hate more is not advancing.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

I really can't see Vern getting any cheers from a wrestling audience today. How would a company put any titles on him if he got zero reactions from the fans with his particular style in the ring in today's world. He wouldn't get any backing from behind the scenes if he's boring the hell out of crowds every week. He'd be the focal point of IWC hate and he'd slide down the card as a result. That's the problem I have if Eras are going to be separated this far. It's not really fair to both wrestlers because of multiple era factors involved.

Except Reigns is now the focal point of IWC hate, and is being booked as strongly as ever. Why wouldn't Gagne be in a similar situation?

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

Except Reigns is now the focal point of IWC hate, and is being booked as strongly as ever. Why wouldn't Gagne be in a similar situation?

Vern would get it worse with his style. Nobody in today's world would like him at all, especially after being exposed to a faster paced wrestling for a long time. Vern slapping on a headlock and laying on the mat with a guy for 6 minutes would get a riot-like response from the crowd and his success in the company would suffer for it. So I have to pick the guy who would provide a better show in the next round.

 

[Bernkastel]

I really can't see Vern getting any cheers from a wrestling audience today. How would a company put any titles on him if he got zero reactions from the fans with his particular style in the ring in today's world.

Verne worked a similar style that Angle does today. The only real difference is the pacing, but when you watch some of those old 2/3 falls matches, some of the falls last mere minutes.

Also you gotta realize that today's fans have been conditioned to see the wrestling product that we do because the WWE is likely the only option for most consumers. But years ago there were many different options available depending on where you lived. Verne's AWA pushed a more technical style, but that didn't stop Verne from getting over in other area's besides the Midwest. Verne was a staple of the Northeast and Capitol Wrestling [WWE] for years, and by the 50's they were already pushing showy wrestlers like Antonino Rocca who had bright and colorful persona's and did flashy moves in the ring to wow crowds like modern WWE wrestlers do today. And yet Gagne fit right in at the time.

He wouldn't get any backing from behind the scenes if he's boring the hell out of crowds every week. He'd be the focal point of IWC hate and he'd slide down the card as a result. That's the problem I have if Eras are going to be separated this far. It's not really fair to both wrestlers because of multiple era factors involved. So Roman spears Vern for the win to make today's fans happier that the guy they hate more is not advancing.

This is an unfair assumption though. If Verne was able to get over with 2 different crowds that enjoyed 2 different types of wrestling, why wouldn't he he able to adjust to the modern era? Hell, he trained many wrestlers that went on to make it big in the early modern era. So giving the win to Reigns simply because you don't understand the way Gagne's era worked and just automatically assume he couldn't cut it in the modern is silly.

Also it's beside the point as the matches aren't supposed to take place in any set era, so keep that in mind.

 

[Bernkastel]

Vern would get it worse with his style. Nobody in today's world would like him at all, especially after being exposed to a faster paced wrestling for a long time. Vern slapping on a headlock and laying on the mat with a guy for 6 minutes would get a riot-like response from the crowd and his success in the company would suffer for it. So I have to pick the guy who would provide a better show in the next round.

Except that's not what Gagne would do if he worked in the modern era. If this were an AWA match I expect you'd believe that Reigns couldn't go 60 minutes to a draw. Neither would be true. They are assumptions.

"Providing a better show" is subjective. Verne would definitely bring better numbers to the next round than Roman would. The fans that loved Gagne, and there were millions of them, would definitely disagree with you on what a better show would be.

 

[tdmoon]

This isn't even close. Verne Gagne is one of the most important figures in the history of wrestling. Reigns is a promising young wrestler who has good things ahead, but is nowhere near close to the level of Gagne at this time(or ever, I'm guessing). He's, what, held the World title a couple times for a little over a month total?

Let's take a look at some of Gagne's titles(courtesty of wrestlingdata):

NWA Texas Heavyweight Title
1949/12/16 - 1950/01/13
NWA Texas Heavyweight Title
1950/09/08 - 1950/10/27
NWA World Junior Heavyweight Title
1950/11/13 - 1951/11/19
World Junior Heavyweight Title (Tennessee-Version)
1951/05/?? - 1951/11/19
World/International Heavyweight Title (Montreal-Version)
1953/02/25 - 1953/05/06
AWA Eastern States Heavyweight Title
1953/05/05 - ????/??/??
NWA United States Heavyweight Title (Chicago-Version)
1953/09/03 - 1956/04/07
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Chicago/Indianapolis-Version) (with Édouard Carpentier) 1957/05/25 - 1957/??/??
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Minneapolis-Version) (with Bronko Nagurski) 1957/12/26 - 1958/03/22
NWA United States Heavyweight Title (Chicago-Version)
1958/04/11 - 1958/11/15
AWA United States Heavyweight Title
1958/04/12 - 1960/08/16
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Minneapolis-Version) (with Leo Nomellini) 1958/05/15 - 1958/??/??
World Heavyweight Title (Omaha-Version)
1958/08/09 - 1958/11/15
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Minneapolis-Version) (with Butch Levy) 1959/04/28 - 1959/06/??
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Minneapolis-Version) (with Leo Nomellini) 1960/07/19 - 1960/08/??
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1960/08/16 - 1961/07/11
AWA United States Heavyweight Title
1961/07/21 - 1961/09/23
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1961/08/08 - 1962/01/09
World Heavyweight Title (Omaha-Version)
1961/09/16 - 1962/07/31
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1962/08/21 - 1963/07/09
World Heavyweight Title (Omaha-Version)
1962/08/25 - 1963/02/15
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1963/07/20 - 1963/07/27
World Heavyweight Title (Omaha-Version)
1963/07/20 - 1963/07/27
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1963/08/08 - 1963/11/16
World Heavyweight Title (Omaha-Version)
1963/09/07 - 1963/09/07
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1963/12/14 - 1964/05/02
AWA World Tag Team Titles (with Moose Evans) 1964/02/09 - 1964/02/23
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1964/05/16 - 1964/10/20
AWA World Tag Team Titles (with The Crusher) 1965/07/24 - 1965/08/07
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1967/02/26 - 1968/08/17
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1968/08/31 - 1975/11/08
AWA World Tag Team Titles (with Billy Robinson) 1972/12/30 - 1973/01/06
AWA World Tag Team Titles (with Mad Dog Vachon) 1979/06/06 - 1980/07/20
IWA World Heavyweight Title
1979/11/13 - 1979/11/16
AWA World Heavyweight Title
1980/07/18 - 1981/05/19
Title reigns of uncertain winning date
NWA United States Heavyweight Title (Central-States-Version)
????/??/?? - 1960/04/20
NWA World Tag Team Titles (Texas-Version) (with Wilbur Snyder) ????/??/?? - ????/??/??

Add all those accomplishments to the fact that he was a major factor in the development of some of wrestling's biggest stars and kept a major promotion afloat for decades, in addition to being an extremely talented technical wrestler and this isn't even close. Gagne in a landslide.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I like Reigns. Dude gets my blood pumping when he does his thing. In ten, hell maybe even five years, Roman will likely be in a position where he is one of the top seeded guys in the tournament and will dispatch the stars of yesteryear with ease, but as it stands his two short lived world title reigns don't stack up to what Verne accomplished.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Vern would get it worse with his style. Nobody in today's world would like him at all, especially after being exposed to a faster paced wrestling for a long time. Vern slapping on a headlock and laying on the mat with a guy for 6 minutes would get a riot-like response from the crowd and his success in the company would suffer for it. So I have to pick the guy who would provide a better show in the next round.

Verne Gagne would get a standing applause from the audience for his accomplishments. Crowds also understand that there are wrestlers with various movesets and will cheer for them accordingly. You know when a luchador enters the ring, you're expecting some hi-flying assault but when you see a technician, you'll be cheering for submissions or suplexes. Same thing here with Verne. If you need a recent example, check out Ric Flair in his final WWE run.

However, even though Roman Reigns is a wrecking ball who tears through opponents, something a lot of people loving seeing (see: popularity of UFC/MMA), he doesn't get a positive reaction. Hell, I'd argue his heat he is getting from the audience is the X-Pac heat or "go away please" heat... so it's not even a proper reaction.

I digress: the accomplishments by Verne Gagne is enough evidence to outclass Roman Reigns and eliminate him first round. With the popularity vote, I'm sure people would rather see Roman removed from the tournament early on despite not knowing a damn thing Verne... and that's saying a lot about Roman. Verne easily wins here.

 

[NSL]

Reigns may be more entertaining to me, but that doesn't mean he'd get the win here. He'd be the name on the marquee for the match, the main draw, but there'd be far more people paying to see him lose. Gagne should win this in a landslide, but I understand the modernity of Reigns will garner him some votes.

What era are these two fighting in?

When it comes to the tournament, there really is no "era". It's as if it's taking place in an alternate universe where everything not pertaining directly to what happens between the ropes is irrelevant.

 

[Bernkastel]

Reigns may be more entertaining to me, but that doesn't mean he'd get the win here. He'd be the name on the marquee for the match, the main draw, but there'd be far more people paying to see him lose. Gagne should win this in a landslide, but I understand the modernity of Reigns will garner him some votes.

Pretty sure it would be Verne's name on the marque. You know, the 9 time world champion who was known all over the world before there were globally known promotions. Roman would just be an appetizer for Gagne. A warm up for Flair in the next round. That's the main event.

 

[NSL]

Pretty sure it would be Verne's name on the marque. You know, the 9 time world champion who was known all over the world before there were globally known promotions. Roman would just be an appetizer for Gagne. A warm up for Flair in the next round. That's the main event.

What I meant, is that Reigns would be the name and face that would be on TV every week to sell the match. The young good-looking kid with the flashy moves. But the real attraction would be Gagne, who would be winning.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

There should be no doubt about this one.

Verne Gagne is one of the greatest ever. Roman Reigns has a long way to go before he can even enter that discussion.

Gagne takes this one handily and sets up a second round classic that everyone should want to see... Gagne versus Flair. Teacher versus student. AWA versus NWA.

 

[Sai the Uganda Guy]

If Roman Reigns were booked the way he should have been from the split of the Shield as a quiet badass, he'd be a lot more respectable of an opponent for Gagne. Unfortunately, this is not the case, and while my Pensacola pride tugs at my heartstrings, the obvious choice is Verne, a 16-time world champion, the man of AWA, a true legend. Reigns has accomplished a good bit in his short career, and maybe would be even better off if booked properly, but he still couldn't match Gagne's legacy.
Vote Verne.

 

[Tastycles]

Verne Gagne was a huge star and the only usual criticism of him is that he booked himself huge. That's not really fair, but it's an argument for another day as whilst Reigns may not be booking himself, he's certainly being pushed very strongly so the argument doesn't hold water. Gagne was a bigger deal and wasn't booed by most of the audience when he was supposed to be a face. Gagne wins.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

Even heel Roman when he was in the Shield was pinning Daniel Bryan and CM Punk clean in the ring. Now that he split from the Shield, he's pinned Triple H, Batista, Randy Orton, and went toe to toe with Brock Lesnar twice in triple threats. Even if Verne is still close to his prime and not in the twilight of his career, Roman would still be booked to go over in a passing of the torch. This is a Hogan vs. Warrior situation, and even the immortal Hulk Hogan did the job for the new top guy. Roman's gonna beat Verne, and the Kentucky marks will eat it up.