First Round: St. Louis - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Lou Thesz

Discussion in 'The Toronto Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 22, 2010.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Mitsuharu Misawa

  2. Lou Thesz

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a first round matchup in the St. Louis Subregion. The ring and arena are universal throughout the first round and the organization is not a factor. There is a 20 minute time limit. Vote using any criteria you like. Most votes in the poll at the end of the time period wins. In the case of a tie we will go off of the number of written votes. In the case of a second tie, both are eliminated.

    Location: Scottrade Center, St. Louis, Missouri.

    [​IMG]

    Mitsuhara Misawa

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    Vs.

    Lou Thesz

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    Voting is open for 4 days.
     
    #1
  2. Ferbian

    Ferbian Has Returned.

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    While I know Misawa is gonna get a lot of votes here I believe, just looking at his accomplishments which probably exceeds Lou Thesz accomplishments because of the sheer amount of 5 star matches this guy has wrestled, I still think Lou Thesz goes over in this match because of the sheer impact this guy had on the business, innovating some of the original moves that are still used to day such as the Lou Thesz press (hell this guy has a move named after him!!)

    Lou Thesz has put on great matches, one of the "original hookers" so to say, and is arguably considered to be one of the best pure wrestlers by quite a handful I could believe, Lou held the NWA title for a combined 10 damn years.. 10 YEARS!! how the hell do you compete with that unless your Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan, I tell you, you don't!

    And yes I know a lot of people also consider Misawa to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, there's a lot of those guys, but for the innovation, I think Lou Thesz has the upper hand.

    Lou Thesz is gonna go over in this one, purely because of his impact on the business as opposed to Misawa (and no I'm not saying Misawa hasn't impacted the business, but Lou Thesz has done so much more in my eyes)
     
    #2
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  3. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    misawa had was a 5 time triple crown champ three time ghc heavyweight champ and for what its worth he was a three time wrestler of the year according to WON. misawa was one of the first members of the erstling observer hall of fame and actually died in the ring and would probably be wrestling today had it not been for that sad incident putting on even more 5 star matches (he has 24)


    lou thez was a 6 time NWA champion and for a long time that was the most prestigious belt in the world he held it for a total of 10 years three months and nine days he created the german suplex powerbomb stf and thesz press he wrestled for 47 years which is phenominal. he became history syoungest world champion at the age of 21 and was one of the first undisputed heavyweight champions of the world. thesz gets my vote in this match up for what he did for Wrestling not only in the states but also in japan through his matches with ridzokian in the 50s without thesz there quite possibly could be no pro wrestling in the states as well as japan
     
    #3
  4. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    Possibly the "best" matchup in the entire tourney. Arguably the greatest Japanese wrestler ever against the greatest old skool wrestler. A true slobber knocker. When it comes down to it, all of the stuff was Thesz more or less shaping pro wrestling and all that should get him the win here. That's what he did, right? May be a little off, but there was a shit ton of Gelgarin stuff to remember.

    Misawa certainly was great, he had like 937420379 five star matches with Kobashi alone, right? Even though I went Thesz, this could easily go either way, with the winner likely going far in this thing.
     
    #4
  5. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Vote Hogan, Savage, Rocky and Thesz

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    Best match up of round 1. I voted Thesz, but am not totally opposed to Misawa getting it. Thesz is more of an innovator and, kayfabe wise, lost far less often then Misawa did. From a work rate standpoint, I think they're virtually even, and sicne that's Misawa's main claim to fame, I gave it to Thesz, who was a better story teller and a better shooter. Nitpicking? Sure, but when it's this close, you have to. Vote Thesz.
     
    #5
  6. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Misawa is great, but Thesz dominated the US Wrestling scene for such a long time that I think he has to take that. I wish Gelgarin was here to give a much more compelling argument for Thesz, but in short you have a man that went all around the world beating all comers, and he deserves to go over Misawa in the US.
     
    #6
  7. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I had to go with Misawa here as well.

    I am a firm believer in how it is quite logical for a guy in an older era to be better in his time and place thana guy in a newer era, HOWEVER, when the two worlds merge, it is possible for the newer guy to be better because of the innovations and improvements made to the sport and to athleticism in general.

    A fair parallel - Bill Walton was a terrific player in the NBA in the 70's and 80's. He was truly one of the best in the sport and at his position. LaBron James is that type of guy today. Walton did it earlier, but due to the advancements in athletics and the evolving style of the game, I doubt Walton in his prime would math up with LaBron in his time.

    Such is the case here. Thesz was straight up THE MAN in his day. Technically flawless. Tough and strong. A true legend. And I'd put him over A LOT of the guys who came after him.

    Misawa is a lot of the things that Thesz was, but with more and better competition. Misawa was more innovative, partially because the era called for it. I would wonder whether Thesz would be prepared for an offense he would consider "unorthodox" from Misawa.

    There are only a handful of guys I'd put over Thesz in this sort of format. Misawa is one of those handful.
     
    #7
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  8. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Wait, when did Lou Thesz blow up the old wrestling ciruit? I wish Gelgarin would come in here too, so I could take a look at what he has to say. However, he's probably waiting for someone else to come in and defend Misawa. With this post, I have to.

    If Thesz is so great, then how come the only thing that most people seem to know is that he has an eponymous press that WWE commentators always screamed the name of when Mickie James performed it? You could go the stupidity route, and argue that people don't know as much as they should, but I don't think this would be a wise route to take. Why? Because most people here seem to devour wrestling books, even those that are not commissioned by WWE (e.g., Hitman and Sex, Lies, and Headlocks). Having read plenty of these books, I'd like to ask the following question: why do all of them at most just mention Thesz in passing? I mean, he's supposed to be one of the greatest professional wrestlers ever, and greatness, as far as I'm concerned, entails timelessness.

    In many industries, there are plenty of examples of an individual's (or group's) genius standing the test of time. In music, we have all the classical composers and, more recently, The Beatles. In film, we have The Marx Brothers, Charlie Chaplin, and Cecil B. DeMille. In wrestling...well, in wrestling, we don't go back as far because of how much it has changed. Professional wrestling from the 1960s on was less about who could physically beat whom in a ring positioned by a ferris wheel or a circus tent and more about who could best entertain, with their athleticism, an arena full of spectators. When it comes to how now rate professional wrestlers, does it matter if they're legit "tough guys?" Does their performing real maneuvers in the wrestling ring somehow make them better? Is wrestling all about technique, or should it somehow transcend the squared circle to give its viewers something more than just two men grappling with each other?

    So, what exactly can Lou Thesz do? Perform the simple powerbomb that he innovated but that many people have improved on (hell, even Batista does a better job at it then he did)? Put on a "hooking" clinic? Personally, I'd pass on all of these and instead go with the man who made King's Road-style wrestling even bigger after Baba and Tsuruta, the man who helped to make Kawada, Kobashi, and Akiyama, the man whose endurance of relentless punishment would make you cringe and want to tear your hair out, the man who never had any trouble in eliciting only the most fervent of reactions from the crowds he performed before. In other words, I'm going with Misawa, the "timeless" wrestler whose fighting spirit shone bright each and every time he stepped into the ring, and whose legacy will never, ever be forgotten.

    Vote Misawa
     
    #8
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  9. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    He's voted, but I hope he posts. In the meantime, you'll have to make do with me.
    If anything, the fact that they do call that move the Thesz press says a lot. How often do you hear Bobo Brazil or Buddy Rogers referred to on TV. I can't think of a single wrestler from before 1984 that gets more frequent mentioning by commentators of the ilk of Striker and Jim Ross.

    It's two fold. Firstly, most of those books are written by men in their 40s, and therefore men who were growing up after Thesz's heydey. Secondly, and I think this is probably the biggest flaw in your argument, wrestling tends to point to the most recent example. People talk of Hogan's influence, not Billy Graham's. They talk of Ric Flair, not Buddy Rogers. There is little tradition of writing a history of wrestling in an autobiography.

    That being said, the WWE saw fit to honour Thesz with a ceremony on Badd Blood, along with much more recent stars like Harley Race, so I think they probably do recognise his contribution.

    But how many people cite those people as their principle influence?
    Well, I, and the WWE, would argue that the shift came when they started televising wrestling in the 1950s. Thesz wasn't some Strangler Lewis style shoot fighter, he was a professional wrestler as we know it, who was capable of wrestling like that if there were any shenanigans. Thesz's matches were all about athleticism, and it is part of the reason why wrestling transitioned to TV so well. As for circus tents, you realise that was about 50 years before Thesz's time? He wrestled in 20,000 seater places on a regular basis, and I don't doubt he drew bigger crowds to bigger venues at times.

    Which is what Thesz gave the world. Somewhere Gelgarin has made a post listing all the aspects of prowrestling that Thesz innovated. Not moves, you understand, but things like getting to the ropes and working on body parts. These are the sorts of things that made professional wrestling its own entity.
    Well, yes. He invented one of the most used moves in professional wrestling. You have spent the rest of your post suggesting that Thesz was some sort of shoot fighter, and now you are saying that he invented the powerbomb. The day someone does a powerbomb in the UFC, you'll have a point, but it sounds to me that you've just proved the showmanship of Thesz.

    As for his other moves and legacy, he invented the STF, which works pretty well for Cena, about ten different suplexes, again, the basis of professional wrestling.
    Right. I should probably tell you that Thesz has beaten Baba, so maybe that style doesn't hold up well against him.
    Thesz helped countless people get over and learn. Including Rikidozan and Masahiro Chono, who I think, may just have been a big deal in Japan.
    I'm not going to belittle Misawa, I don't need to. He was a great wrestler and an excellent performer, but he wasn't on the same level as Thesz. Thesz invented, amongst other moves, the German suplex, the powerbomb, the STF and the Thesz press. More to the point though, rather than the specifics, lets look at the wider picture. Thesz invented the move. Before him it was stretches and holds, and while Thesz incorperated those in his arsenal, he was the first professional wrestler as we know it.

    The man was deemed good enough to be a world Champion at 21, when there were few world champions, something that is still a record.

    Vote Thesz
     
    #9
  10. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Over the last four months, I've found time to review every show that the WWE has televised in 2010. During this research, I've seen the name of Lou Thesz uttered far more often than that of Mitsuharu Misawa. Based on these data, I have no choice but to conclude that Thesz was more influential in professional wrestling than Misawa. He gets my vote.
     
    #10
  11. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Uh, what else would they call it? Person jumps on opponent and knocks them down?

    This would be a flaw in my argument if the books I read weren't big on mentioning Sam Muchnick, or Verne Gagne and Bruno Sammartino for that matter.


    In my opinion, The Beatles are so iconic because of everyone they have influenced. When it comes to The Marx Brothers and Chaplin, they had no small part in influencing the likes of Mel Brooks and Woody Allen.

    Now, whom exactly has Thesz influenced? Which wrestlers are still hooking and shooting today?

    [QUOTE[Well, I, and the WWE, would argue that the shift came when they started televising wrestling in the 1950s. Thesz wasn't some Strangler Lewis style shoot fighter, he was a professional wrestler as we know it, who was capable of wrestling like that if there were any shenanigans. Thesz's matches were all about athleticism, and it is part of the reason why wrestling transitioned to TV so well. As for circus tents, you realise that was about 50 years before Thesz's time? He wrestled in 20,000 seater places on a regular basis, and I don't doubt he drew bigger crowds to bigger venues at times.[/QUOTE]

    Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot, Wrestling At The Chase started airing a mere 7 months before the 60s began. And, I'll also concede the point about carnival tents, as I forgot that they had just started wrestling in 900-seat hotel ballrooms (I have no clue where you are getting these arena figures from).

    So, by this logic, I should buy a Ford Model T instead of a Honda Civic because innovation and originality are all that matter. Thesz may have invented the wheel, but it's undeniable that people have improved on what he first brought to the table.

    1) Thesz's powerbomb was shit, and I'd even go so far as to say that it was probably serendipitously created.

    2) Quinton "Rampage" Jackson uses the powerbomb to KO his opponents.

    Refer to my inventing the wheel comment. I thank Thesz for his initial contributions, but there are now variations that are unequivocally supreme to his.

    This argument of yours would probably work if it wasn't for the fact that their only documented match took place on 28 January 1966, approximately six years before Baba left JWA to found AJPW.

    Who, Rikidozan? Yeah, he was a big deal, but why would you mention him when he beat Thesz? Also, Chono may have been formally trained by Thesz at some point in time, but it looks to me like Stu Hart and other NJPW wrestlers had more of an influence on his style than Thesz.

    Yeah, I'll take the Emerald Flowsion and the Tiger Driver over those moves any day. And, who wouldn't? They're more crisply delivered and aesthetically pleasing than anything Thesz ever did.

    Again with this stuff about Thesz being a pioneer. My only response to this is: Who cares? Thank you, Thesz, for doing these things. Now, take your commentator recognition and have a front-row seat while people 10 times better than you have a match.

    All right.

    I've soundly overcome everything presented in this argument. Do the right thing and vote Misawa, people.
     
    #11
  12. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    I hate this reasoning Coco. You take a xenophobic, withdrawn organisation like WWE who couldn't care how different, popular and more skilled Japanese wrestling is to their premise and say that because WWE wouldn't mention anything Japanese, that Misawa means nothing?

    That's BS on a new level, the likes of which I haven't seen in this or past tourneys.

    Thesz is a great and no doubt important to the industrys' history but if a comprehensive and unbiased review of wrestling around the globe, Misawa would be shown to be just as, maybe even more important to its' past, present and future.

    This exclusive and biased opinion should not sway others in the way it has affected Coco. WWE in 2010 is far from the be-all-and-end-all in pro wrestling and is not a fair reflection for judging most of the matches in the tourney.
     
    #12
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  13. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    No idea what they'd call it, but they needn't refer to Thesz. Nobody calls a sleeper a strangler hold anymore. Very few moves are named for their innovators. Thesz has that honour.
    Muchnick was a promoter, whose career lasted into the 1970s and the other two are 10 and 20 years younger than Thesz respectively, putting them in a later era.

    I think we're getting off topic here.

    Thesz invented the move as opposed to the hold. Every wrestler who uses moves is influenced by his style. As far as I'm aware, that's pretty much every single wrestler in the world.
    The arena figures come from a) Video evidence.

    Here's Thesz in Madison Square Garden

    [YOUTUBE]xvg-qwLvHrE[/YOUTUBE]

    b) The fact he unified his title with another one in the LA Olympic Auditorium or something like that. Attendance - 15,000.

    When do you think Thesz wrestled? As for TV. Firstly, Thesz was the guy who got wrestling at the chase over, not that it was the first wrestling TV programme. The DuMont Network was showing wrestling in the 40s and secondly, wrestling had other outlets on television before that, as evidenced in the aforementioned youtube video.

    If you were voting on the best car of all time, one would think that the importance of the Model T to car building forever. I'm sure people have improved on Thesz in terms of showmanship, but in terms of being popular, outshowing his contemporaries and innovation, I'm not so sure. Thesz isn't a Model T, he's something like a Bugatti Type 35. The best in his day by a country mile, and consistently considered one of the best era-for-era of all time.
    It's still light years ahead of what anyone in his time did, and he still pulled it off long before anyone else.
    He's done it once, and that was through standing when the guy had him in a triangle choke, and he went down with the guy. That looks like a legitimate move, because it is, no variation of a wrestling move ever has.
    What do you mean better? Are there moves more entertaining than his? Yes. Are there moves as effective on contemporary opponents? No.
    When Thesz was 50 years old. Both outside their best time, certainly, but still a win is a win.
    Err... because firstly, he also beat him a fair few times, and secondly Rikidozan cited Thesz as the reason he became so popular.
    He's called his mentor for a reason. The people who train other wrestlers train them in the basics, most of which Thesz developed. The Blue Blazer shares nothing in common with Stu Hart's style, yet it is he who trained him.
    But so what? Petey Williams' Canadian destroyer is more aesthetically pleasing than Hogan's leg drop, does that mean he should win, should the two face off?

    The fact of the matter is this. The ways that people vote in this tournament are summed up below. If you know of others, then address them, but I think these are the main ones:

    Kayfabe: Lou Thesz is not only in his home country, he's in his home town. Thesz lost in St. Louis once in his entire career as far as I'm aware. Misawa's sole trip to the US was to wrestle against other Japanese people in Ring oof Honor. Thesz often beat foreign wrestlers, seldomly lost, he has this one.

    Impact on the business: Thesz is the reason wrestling is like it is today. Misawa has unquestionably altered the Japanese market, but he has not, at all, done nearly as much as Thesz did.

    Shoot fight: Both were good amateurs, but more is made of Thesz. Genuinely don't know, probably Misawa

    Drawing ability: Remember, we're in the USA here, Thesz sold out MSG, Misawa didn't sell out the Manhattan Centre. Thesz wins.

    Quality of matches: Well, that's objective, but most people will choose Misawa

    World Titles: Thesz has 9, Misawa 8, Thesz wins.

    No you haven't. In essence, vote for Thesz if you are voting objectively. If you are just voting for who you prefer, then vote for them.
     
    #13
  14. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Muchnick was a promoter whose career was intertwined with that of Thesz; how come he's so significant in written professional wrestling history while Thesz is not?

    No, we're still on-topic. The analogy still stands, and it raises an interesting question: how come professional wrestling is so much different of an industry in terms of who influences whom? How come influences are so resonant in other industries while not in professional wrestling?

    You're conflating two things here: tools and style. If we were to carry this argument over to other industries, then we'd have to say that whoever invented the guitar influenced all people that used it afterwards.

    Do we want to pull out attendance figures now? Also, wasn't Rocca one of the biggest wrestlers during this time in the Northeastern US? Also, I'm assuming that you're talking about the match Thesz had with Baron Michele Leone, who was one of the premier wrestlers of Southern California at the time.

    If you want to play attendance figures, I will, but Misawa's figures are going to be about two to three times bigger. Also, in Misawa's case, it's indisputable that he played a huge part in garnering those figures.

    I already conceded this point earlier. But, it was Gagne, not Thesz, that contributed to wrestling's popularity on the DuMont network.


    No, Thesz is definitely a Model T. Innovative, yes, but wrestling has made leaps and bounds since. Thesz may have been better than his contemporaries, but this doesn't necessarily translate into being better than wrestlers of later generations.

    This would work if Thesz was fighting someone from his own era. But, he's not; he's wrestling someone that came about 30 after his prime.

    It's essentially the same thing as a powerbomb. I'll concede that he's only done it once, but you've tried to veer away readers from the perception that Thesz is a legitimate tough-guy to the perception that he was an excellent showman. If we're going in this direction, then I'm at a loss as to how Thesz could be seen as a better showman than Misawa. Not only can Misawa do all of the suplexes and slams Thesz did, but his repertoire included moves that are ten times more awe-inspiring.

    Thesz's moves are primitive by today's standards. If any of these moves have worked to put away Misawa only after one execution, then I'll be extremely surprised. Also, how exactly is dropping someone flat on their back as opposed to their head more effective in terms of taking them out? This is what you seem to be implying with your last question: that a Tiger Driver is not as effective as a simple powerbomb.

    This is what you're arguing:

    Premise: Lou Thesz beat Giant Baba in 1966.
    Conclusion: Therefore, a wrestler versant in King's Road-style wrestling would not fare well against Thesz.

    What assumptions are required to make this argument work? Well, for one, we'd have to assume that Baba had fully developed King's Road-style at this time and that he had adopted it as his style of wrestling. Second, we'd also have to assume that the first legitimately huge star of AJPW, Jumbo Tsuruta, had little if any influence on the King's Road-style passed down to the likes of Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi.

    Ultimately, Baba losing to Thesz does little to damage the argument that King's Road-style would be a formidable obstacle for Thesz, because, a) it wasn't fully developed when he wrestled Baba, and b) Tsuruta had a significant role in its development.

    Good for him, although it does not lend much credence to the argument you're trying to make.

    Who? Chono? Well, if he called him his mentor, then I can't say much about that. However, from the matches that I've watched, I'd say that Chono's primary influences lie elsewhere.

    This is a very weak analogy, because Petey Williams is a cruiserweight. Misawa is bigger than Thesz, and he has just as much stamina, if not more. Also, we're not even taking into account which wrestler has displayed more heart and perseverance in the ring (this is a match-up that Misawa would win by miles).

    One point to Thesz.

    Thesz provided the tools for wrestlers to work with, but the influences on their style and technique lie elsewhere. Also, the contributions of Thesz that you list are so basic that I seriously doubt no one else could have come up with them. A lot of what you list has more to do with luck than with ingenuity.

    On the other hand, we have Misawa, a veritable prodigy of high-risk suplexes and slams.

    One point to Misawa.

    This is a moot point, as you've wanted to steer this argument away from shoot fighting abilities.

    Thesz, to the best of my knowledge, never sold out the Tokyo Dome. A person is a person is a person. Americans aren't worth 2 individuals to every one individual not living in between the US' borders.

    One point to Misawa.

    Yes, it is objective.

    One point to Misawa.

    One point to Thesz.

    Misaw wins 3-2.



    Yes, I have overcome your objections. I'll concede the more arcane points of this debate, but, what does that leave us with?

    Contrary to what I first believed, Thesz was a modest drawer. This does nothing to Misawa.

    If you're voting objectively, then you'll vote for Misawa.
     
    #14
  15. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    I decided to vote for Misawa, one for the shits and giggles of making it a tie, and two, because I want to see him advance out of the first round, if not for the fact that Japan is getting royally fucked in this tournament.

    This may have been the most difficult decision in the tournament. Both are extremely worthy champions, I don't think anyone is going to try and argue that. Lou's hooking style worked for it's era, and he was always a bad motherfucker as it pertained to amateur wrestling. Misawa was a decent amateur wrestler, but I would have to give the slight edge there to Thesz. But I do find Misawa to be a more entertaining wrestler. I always have liked Misawa's matches with Kobashi, Kawada, and Akiyama. The one thing one has to say about Misawa is that not only does he put on fantastic matches, he also wins those matches. It'd be like Randy Savage ever won any of the matches that ever really mattered in his career. Yes, that's right, Misawa is pretty much a case of Hulk Hogan's ability to win, mixed with Bret Hart's skill in the ring. This one's tough, and I'm sorry I have to take out Thesz now. Brutal draw.
     
    #15
  16. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Wrong. Firstly, Muchnick went much later. Secondly, the founder of the NWA is obviously going to be more of an influence on pro wrestling than any individual wrestler. The wrestlers of the future will talk about Vince McMahon more than they do about Triple H.
    Because music is inherently more creative than wrestling and influences shine through a lot more obviously within it. Guys like Benoit mimicking Dynamite Kid precisely is rare. More often, influences in wrestling are about who people liked when they were kids. You don't see any of Hogan in Edge, but that is who Edge used to love as a child. An influence in professional wrestling is not necessarily someone whose style you copy. That's why it doesn't matter. Thesz is too old for most of the autobiographies your talking about, but I'm sure people like Race would point to him as an influence, being from the older generation as they are.

    Not really. Thesz didn't invent the wrestling ring or tights, he invented the style of using those things. The relationship would be more akin to the inventor of a genre of music, who I think absolutely would be an influence on everyone. The Beatles pretty much invented guitar pop as we know it, which is why they're so influential. Lou Thesz invented pro wrestling as we know it.

    This is ridiculous. The NWA used to vote for their champion based on who would be the biggest draw. Neither Leone nor Rocca were given that accolade because they were not the biggest draw in the country. This is such a bullshit argument it's untrue. If Thesz was the smaller draw, he'd have lost wouldn't he? I suppose King Kong Bundy was the draw at WrestleMania 2, was he?
    As is the case with Thesz! People don't pick somebody to carry every single wrestling promotion in a country because he can't draw.

    No it wasn't.

    The only way you can judge these matches is by comparing how good they were in their own era and then extrapolating. Thesz was about ten times more interesting and more dominant than anyone else in his era, which isn't true of Misawa.
    Again, how can you compare two wrestlers from entirely different eras? Only by looking at them compared to their peers.
    I'm not saying Lou Thesz was The Rock, I'm refuting the point that you made that he was a shoot fighter and nothing else. I'm telling you that perception, which you and only you have brought into this argument, is wrong.
    By the magical forces of wrestling? The same way that whenever anyone old in the history of wrestling has performed their dated moves it works. That being said, Thesz rarely finished with the powerbomb, instead preferring to use the STF or piledriver. Seeing as John Cena and The Undertaker just used those moves to win the main event matches at WrestleMania in 2010, I think there's absolutely an argument that Thesz moves would work on someone who's prime was about 20 years before that.
    I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he beat the man you brought up as an exponent of Misawa's style.
    Again, I didn't come to that conclusion at all. The guy you cited as an influence has lost to Thesz, I was pointing that out, and nothing else.
    You're reading far too far into what I said. You brought up Baba as a stylistic influence, I pointed out Thesz had beaten him. I didn't jump to any further conclusions.

    Well, seeing as you seem to think Thesz wasn't a draw, the most important wrestler in the history of Japan say that the reason they got so popular is by fighting Thesz, then it pretty much completely blows that line of argument out of the water. So, yes, it was perfectly relevant.

    Yes, Chono said that.
    In what world is Misawa bigger than Thesz? They're fighting weights were both 240 or so, and Thesz was an inch taller. Secondly, what is heart and perseverance? If you mean effort, how can you judge that? If you mean literal perseverance, then Thesz won as many, if not more, long matches. As for stamina, both wrestle over an hour a lot, so I don't think we can go there.

    Right, kayfabe, Thesz has it. 1-0

    But nobody else did come up with them! The light bulb is one of the simplest inventions of all time, but only Edison invented it. How many people actually use high risk suplexes and slams? Not as many who use, you know, all moves.

    2-0 to Thesz.

    I'm happy to do this. 2-0 to Thesz still.
    When the match is in America, popularity in America is relevant. No, Thesz hasn't sold out a stadium that was built in 1988, but he has sold out the Kōrakuen Stadium, which was in exactly the same place as the Tokyo Dome before the latter was built. 3-0 to Thesz.

    At worst, 3-1 to Thesz. I obviously meant subjective, but I'll let Misawa have this.

    Thesz wins 4-1. 5-0 if you prefer his matches.
    Are you seriously referring to the man that sat on the crest of wrestling's first wave of popularity as a "modest draw". Thesz has sold out arenas the world over, and unless he happens to be the only man in history that was a poor draw but was lucky enough to face all of the big draws then your point is completely ******ed.

    You really, really won't.
     
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  17. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    What the fuck do you mean wrong? Was Thesz known or not known for being an NWA champion? And was Muchnick not a founder of the NWA and the head of its St. Louis subsidiary?

    This will be relatively simple now, since I know when you come out with claiming someone as wrong you don't have shit and you're trying to pass of your Wikipedia knowledge as if it's bond.

    Wait, so, let me get this straight. You're calling music more inherently creative, yet you're trying to convince people that no one else besides Thesz could have invented simple moves and used the ropes of a four-sided ring?

    Thesz did not invent the style of the way these things are used. He showed that using certain things (such as ropes) was possible, nothing more, nothing less. According to you, though, this one moment of ingenuity makes him better than anyone that has come after him and that used the ropes.

    How much do you know about the NWA? A little research beyond wikipedia would have allowed you to come to the conclusion that the NWA was a highly politicized organization. Until you bring me proof of Thesz's alleged drawing power, I'm taking your word with a grain of salt, because, right now, I think you're talking out of your ass.

    Here, I'll be transparent about my resources:

    http://www.purolove.com/

    This is where I get my gate figures from. Put up or shut up with your alleged gates.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verne_Gagne

    Shit, man, even wikipedia disagrees with you on this one. You're slacking!

    Yes, because Misawa had much stiffer and formidable competition than Thesz. Also, the fact that Thesz was about ten times better than his competition does nothing for your argument here. For all we, Thesz could have been 10 times better than his contemporaries, but Misawa and his contemporaries could all still be 20 times better than Thesz was (I personally believe this, by the way).

    Yeah, sounds good to me. I can say Misawa was 20 times better than Thesz and it's still logically consistent with what you're trying to sell me.


    This would work if Misawa wasn't known for his resilience.


    Thesz may have been necessary for puro to survive in its fledgling state, but I don't see how this means that he beats Misawa in a match. Yes, the legend of Misawa may not have existed without the series of matches between Rikidozan and Thesz, but this does not mean that Thesz therefore goes over Misawa.

    Honestly, this is like saying Michael Jordan's father goes over MJ in a one-on-one basketball match because, without his father's "contribution," Jordan wouldn't have been born.

    Yeah, Misawa definitely had muscle on Thesz, and their wikipedia pages say that there was about a 20 pound difference.

    How many times did Thesz get pinned and miraculously come back up? Most of the time, he was too busy performing rest holds. The proof's in the way that both of these men's matches were orchestrated. There's a stark contrast, and Misawa's matches were a testament to the man's fighting spirit.


    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. This is one of the shittiest analogies ever written on these boards. Grabbing men in a different manner than you're used to grabbing them and being the first to use a part of the setting you were trained to perform in is just as awe-inspiring as coming up with something that incorporates a tungsten-filament, a glass bulb filled with inert gas, and a screw thread. Give me a fucking break :rolleyes:.

    Thesz invented moves that an imbecile in his position could have come up with. Maybe the same imbecile could have come Misawa's moves, but Misawa's moves sure as fuck look a lot better than Thesz's crude shit.

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 1

    Not as many times as Misawa sold out the Tokyo Dome.

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 2

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 3

    No, just as I said beforehand, he wins 3-2.

    Yes, I am, because you produce fuck all for evidence. I would take Gelgarin's word for what he has to say about Thesz, but this is the man who told me that Inoki helped NJPW by having his wrestlers fight mixed martial artists (what a crock of shit I found that out to be).

    Yes, you will.
     
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  18. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    This point began with you saying that people gave more relevance to Munchink than they do to Thesz in their autobiographies. Obviously, the man responsible for setting in motion the national wrestling boom is going to be a bigger influence. Munchink brought Thesz, and every other wrestler, to the fore so clearly he is more influential. Further to the point though, I said that Munchink was around still in the 70s. Thesz was not. The books you wrote about were all written by people who were starting in the business or to be interested by it in the 1970s. They are more likely to be influenced by someone who was still around than someone who wasn't.

    No, it's because you're wrong.

    Yes. Music has a much broader church of different things that can be brought together. Wrestling does not. Creative is perhaps the wrong word to use, but there is more that can be done in music.

    No it doesn't make him better, he does make him a greater influence. Seeing as the end of our arguments leads to a five point criteria system, of which one point is innovation and influence, which we score differently, it's absolutely relevant.

    Politicised or not, nobody in their right mind is going to push a champion for 10 years that they can't make any money off. I haven't said that Thesz was necessarily the biggest draw in that era, though the fact they kept bringing him back would suggest that maybe he was, the fact that he old out big arenas again. Later in this post you will see evidence of Thesz consistently drawing 10,000+ audiences in a number of locations.

    I fixed the link for you. In your original post, it humorously comes up with nothing.

    I think I'll put up.

    http://www.wrestling.ie/history_book_box_office_1940s.htm

    http://www.wrestling.ie/history_book_box_office_1950s.htm

    http://www.wrestling.ie/history_book_box_office_1960s.htm

    Notice how the numbers go up as Thesz gets more popular, and notice that he is consistently the one with the highest number in each respective year. Notice also that Thesz is the only one who's figures stretch all around the USA, not to mention Singapore, Australia and Japan. Next time you want to accuse me of not knowing anything past Wikipedia, you might want to check that the things I've said are actually mentioned anywhere on that website.

    It says Verne Gagne started performing on DuMont in 1953. The show started airing in 1948. Even you, with your inability to process basic facts, should see the problem there. So, yes, you're wrong, and you've just used wikipedia to prove it.
    But what is stiffer competition in a fake sport? They didn't face any of the same people, which is the usual method for comparison. Thesz beat all the different kinds of wrestlers that emergered later in his career, from precursors to the high flyers like Mil Mascaras and Antonino Rocca to the superheavyweight Emile Czaja. That's a pretty broad spectrum. In a kayfabe sense, it shows Thesz had adapability.

    If you want to treat it as an actual competition, that's real, in precisely what way is Misawa's competition better? Are they better at deciding that they will lose?

    But what does better mean? More entertaining? Entirely subjective. There is no objective criteria that you can match them up against each other directly. You keep saying that I'm relying oninnovation, but your relying on a poorly defined subjective quality.

    So no moves work against him then? I'm willing to bet my house that Misawa has, at some point, lost to a move that Thesz did. Probably a piledriver.

    If I was arguing solely on this point, then this would be a decent argument. I'm not though. If this was kayfabe, Thesz would win, and you have conceded as much yourself, so we have to look at other aspects. In terms of significance to professional wrestling.


    Now who's reliant on wikipedia? To be fair, I probably should have checked that, but what's 15 pound differences?
    Congratulations, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Wrestling matches were three falls until about 1976 in the NWA, I think, don't quote me on the year. Tag matches were still mostly three falls into the late 80s, so it may have been longer. Thesz lost a fall most matches, as is usually the case in three fall matches. So for about 15 years Thesz wrestled 5 or 6 times a week, getting up "miraculously" from a pinfall and winning.
    Edison invented the screw thread. He didn't invent the tungsten filament, which came after him, nor did he invent the gas filled bulb, which came before. Edison put things that already existed together, tweaked the carbon used in the filament, and gave a new way for the light to be held.

    Thesz invented the wrestling "move". He didn't invent flashiness, which came after him, nor did he invent the presupposed outcome which came before. Thesz put things that already existed together, tweaked the way holds were applied, and gave a new way for wrestling matches to unfold.

    Seriously, look stuff up before you try and make me look like an idiot.

    But compare Misawa's moves to, say, Jumbo Tsuruta. Has he made a leap forward? Absolutely. Is it as big as the leap forward from Ed Lewis to Lou Thesz? No.

    Thesz: 2
    Misawa: 0


    Misawa sold out arenas in Japan. Thesz sold them out in The USA, Great Britain, France, Japan, Canada, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand.

    Thesz: 3
    Misawa: 0
    With the objectivity of match quality, it is 4-1 to Thesz, at worst.
    I've given you evidence. I don't know what you're on about in the second sentence, did I say that? Did Gelgarin? Lou Thesz? I don't recall ever saying that. I just did a search of every post I've ever made with the word "Inoki" in to check this wasn't me. It wasn't, so I assume it was Gelgarin.

    Anyway, I have shown pretty conclusively that Thesz was the only man drawing consistant crowds across America and the world in this time.

    No, you won't.

    I'd just like to point out now that at no point have I ever had to lie about Misawa to get my point across. I don't pretend to be an expert on him, but I know enough to know his influence. You came into this thread calling Thesz a shootfighter wrestling in a circus tent, something that is quite evidently wrong. You have repeatedly tried to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about, and that I'm using wikipedia, when you don't even appear to be doing that.
     
    #18
  19. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    This is totally irrelevant to the point you initially made, which was to assert that Muchnick's and Thesz's careers weren't intertwined. Were they or weren't they?

    No, I'm really not.

    And this actually weakens your arguments about Thesz's innovation. By your own admission, there's only so much that can be done in a wrestling ring. So, it's not ingenuity, but rather primacy, that apparently makes Thesz so great.

    Yes, this point is relevant for one point out of five of your criteria.

    Your first sentence is nothing more than speculation, so, I'm not going to even dignify that with a response.

    Notice how the numbers go up as Thesz gets more popular, and notice that he is consistently the one with the highest number in each respective year. Notice also that Thesz is the only one who's figures stretch all around the USA, not to mention Singapore, Australia and Japan. Next time you want to accuse me of not knowing anything past Wikipedia, you might want to check that the things I've said are actually mentioned anywhere on that website.[/QUOTE]

    But, you are using wikipedia for the majority of your arguments. Also, I'm not seeing shit for this match with him against Rikidozan in Korakuen Stadium. Oh, wait, I did find it. Wait...what does this say? The match only drew 30,000 people? Wait, didn't you tell me that the Tokyo Dome was built on the same spot as Korakuen Stadium? I give you props here, as you only partially prevaricated; however, Korakuen Stadium is only half the size of the Tokyo Dome.

    No, I'm not wrong. All your statement does is allow us to come to the conclusion that wrestling was shown on DuMont 5 years before Gagne debuted (and even this is questionable, as it only says on his wiki that he won the Chicago version of the NWA US Championship in 1953; if the golden age of television began in 1953, then we can come to the conclusion that that's when Gagne debuted).

    Did Thesz ever overhaul his style in all of his years of wrestling? It may have been a very adaptable style, but this doesn't make him thus more prepared to deal with Misawa.

    Also, YOU stated that Thesz was way better than his contemporaries, while I stated that this was not the case with Misawa. Stiff competition is extremely relevant here, as it works to Misawa's advantage (who will be more alert and prepared: someone who is never guaranteed a victory or someone who could beat the opponents he has faced thus far with a hand tied behind his back).

    Did you not say that Thesz was better than all of his competition? I am telling you right now that Misawa faced much stiffer competition than Thesz, and I've based this conclusion based on your own admissions.

    No, I'm not. If you want to get into epistemological arguments here, then, even with the stance of extreme skepticism, it can be said that a significant consensus of people that have seen Misawa's matches agree that there's more to them than just the physical motions Misawa and his opponent go through. Also, this is not a poorly defined subjective quality. Storytelling is a quality that all of rely on at some point in time to explain what makes a particular wrestler brilliant beyond just simple mechanics.

    No, you said that Thesz finished off wrestlers with either a piledriver or an STF. I said it takes multiple attempts to pin Misawa.

    What you're doing now is confusing one part of our argument with another. You seem to think that the moves that Thesz invented somehow get him points in a match-up against Misawa. I, on the other hand, think that these moves are very basic and that they were crudely performed by Thesz. Given how much more graceful Misawa is and how he had built on the foundations Thesz supplied, it seems to me that Misawa would beat Thesz in a match.

    Yes, and I say Misawa is more significant.


    He got pinned once in a majority of his three-fall matches. Unfortunately, I was talking about pin attempts, not actual pins. Also, how does three falls rule out the possibility that Thesz's matches weren't filled with rest holds?

    You know, I should. Wait, scratch that; I'll look up everything that YOU say:

    Sorry for not knowing about the minutiae of a light bulb.

    No, how Thesz changed the business was something that was inevitable. It's like saying that amazon.com has revolutionized the publishing industry by coming out with the kindle. Thesz may have been the first to perform certain moves, but what he did was not inconceivable for other people. Misawa, on the other hand, well, his maneuvers are something that he could have gotten patents if they existed for wrestling moves.

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 1

    Correction: Misawa sold out venues that were anywhere from two to six times bigger than the venues Thesz sold out.

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 2

    A quality that you said didn't exist? I think it exists, so:

    Thesz: 1
    Misawa: 3


    Good for him; Misawa was drawing consistent crowds that were bigger than those that Thesz drew.

    I've never once lied about Misawa.

    +1 to Tastycles. I was misinformed about Thesz's venues. His shoot-fighting, though, well, I wasn't mistaken about that.

    1) His "hooking" style influenced the likes of Karl Gotch and Antonio Inoki.

    2) Thesz himself saw his "hooking" abilities as something that could legitimately take someone down should he feel the need to (e.g., should someone want to take the belt off of him even though the match's predetermined finish has Thesz coming out on top).

    No, I hardly ever use wikipedia, except for basic facts, precisely because of people like you. Let's count the ways that you have erred in this debate:

    1) You tried to pass off Thesz being something more than a modest to somewhat good drawer by mentioning how he consistently drew numbers in different continents. What you failed to mention was that these numbers were the equivalent of what the WWF was seeing during The New Generation Era. Misawa's numbers were much more volatile, but they were on average just as good, and his highest gates overshadow Thesz's.

    2) You have brought up the DuMont network in this debate in order to discuss how certain wrestlers helped popularize wrestling. I still have no clue what this program was called, and I also have no clue if Thesz was even on it. However, in addition to being vague, you tried to accuse me of not processing facts correctly on Gagne's wiki page, when it seems that this is precisely what you did. Yes, I based my conclusions regarding his popularity on something said on his wikipedia, but you tried to prove me wrong by acting as if one date listed in the initial sentence of a paragraph applied to all of the events listed in the paragraph.

    3) You told me that Edison invented the light bulb, and then attempted to "own" me by saying that all of the components I listed weren't part of Edison's light bulb; there were instead parts of modern light-bulbs, which, in comparison to Edison's original invention, seem to be an improvement on Edison's original product. Ironically, we can apply this comparison to Thesz and Misawa; Thesz may have invented some moves, but Misawa delivered a much, much package.
     
    #19
  20. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    What I actually said:

    I said Muchnick's career lasted a lot longer, which it did. That is a categorical fact.

    There is only so much, yet Thesz is the one who acheived it.

    What arenas were there in Thesz's time that held wrestling that were bigger? None to my knowledge. Second, as you want to compare two radically different times, has Misawa ever drawn a television rating of 87.0? I'm going to say no.

    Source for 87.0 rating: http://www.wrestling101.com/101/article/trs/967/

    The "source: wikipedia" refers to the quote at the top.

    Yes, you are wrong. The first cards on Dumont were put on in 1948. That's a fact. Thesz and Buddy Rogers headlined the shows early on, then Gagne became their focal point a few years later. I said 1953 before, but I don't actually remember but it may have been a year or two earlier.

    Source: [​IMG]

    It does not, per se, mean that Thesz can deal with Misawa, but the fact that he was adaptable wold mean that Misawa shouldn't be seen to win immediately because he's modern.
    Oh, I see your point here. I'm not so sure that Thesz didn't have quality opponents, he was just better than them. Guys that Thesz faced have included Sammartino, Rodgers, Gagne, Kinski, etc. These people are considered pretty highly in any general history of wrestling.

    Thesz was much better than his contemporaries, but I don't think his contemporaries were poor. Furthermore, I don't think Thesz ever had a squash match, it just wasn't the way. Thesz may have always been good enough to get the win, but he was still pushed. You may contend that means that he wasn't vastly better then, as I contended earlier, but I'd say that beating your opponents consistently implies your much better than them.

    I'd say that it is subjective there. A lot of people think Misawa has great matches, but a lot of people also think that spot fests with zero storytelling are the greatest matches of all time. I really don't think that storytelling is something that everyone considers all the time. If they did, Rob Van Dam wouldn't be considered a good wrestler by anyone, but he is. The enjoyment one extracts from a match is completely reliant on the subject.
    I see what you are saying. Given the fact that this match is scheduled for 20 minutes, I think it would actually be a draw. However, that's too boring an argument to make, so I shall discuss it as if it were a time-limit free match. Those moves may be primative, though I don't think the submission holds of the modern era are hypothetically anymore painful.

    Thesz, in my opinion, would wear down Misawa and eventually force him to submit. Misawa has lost by submission before. You may argue that there is no way Thesz could deal with Misawa's more advance moves, but I think that his Do I think this will be an easy win for Thesz? No. Do I think he'd get there in the end? Yes.

    The concept of a rest hold is a relatively new one. Thesz matches do have a lot of holds, but they were for the purpose of wearing people down, not resting.

    Don't pretend that you do, and you won't need to apologise.

    Everything in hindsight seems inevitable though doesn't it? Thesz might have been doing something obvious to us, but the question that has to be asked is why didn't anyone else come up with it? What is your evidence that it was inevitable? Pro wrestling had been scripted for almost 20 years before Thesz started to do the things he did.


    Thesz was a consistent draw for many years, I'll get to this point later
    I said it was poorly defined.

    No, but you have about Thesz. You have the audacity to say that you don't know what I'm talking about, but you have portrayed Thesz as being something he never was.

    He has shoot fighting qualities, you implied that's all he had, which isn't true.
    They were better numbers than anyone elses at the time, though, which makes him a pretty big deal. Thesz was wrestling multiple times a week in front of 10,000 people. If we looked at the total numbers, Thesz would be right near the top. Misawa has never drawn anything outside of Japan, and this match is outside of Japan.

    Secondly, even within Japan, Misawa may have drawn big numbers in the Tokyo Dome on occasion, more than Thesz ever could in the smaller arenas that existed during his life, but judging by the figures you have presented, he spent far more of his time in 2,000 seater venues. Consistentcy of draw gives it to Thesz.

    No, I based my knowledge of the show on the aforementioned book, which talks about the show. It just calls it the show on the Dumont Network, so presumably it didn't have a name, or it was called "Wrestling from Chicago". I can also tell you that Thesz used to wrestle on a show called Wrestling from Hollywood, which existed in the late 40s. I can't remember that

    I said that Edison invented the light bulb, because he did. I pointed out it was a relatively simplistic invention, because it was. You then attempted to show me up by making out that the light bulb was complicated. I showed you why this wasn't the case. The only improvement I noted was the tungsten fillament, which did make superficially better bulbs than those of Edison.

    They do make for a nice analogy though, in terms of significance, you're right. How many people know Edison invented the light bulb? How many people know Coolidge invented the tungsten filament? Thesz is the more important.

    Obviously, the debate is over, and my side has lost, but your post is completely disrespectful. You say I've relied on wiki, yet I have repeatedly given sources to the contrary, and that not one of my posts in this thread have contained information solely reaped from wiki, and if you want to contest that, prove it.

    To be honest, even if I had come into this argument furnished with nothing but a wikipedia understanding of Thesz, it's more than you did, and yet you have the audacity to try and accuse me of being lazy, and of saying some shit about Inoki that was completely irrelevant even if I had said it, but I didn't.

    I don't need to justify myself to you, but my knowledge of Thesz is partly second hand from Gelgarin, partly from various internet sources and partly from wrestling books. I'm a paid researcher in my other life, so to be honest, even if I was going to talk out of my arse about something I didn't know antything about, I'd look a bit deeper than wikipedia. As for the minutae of the light bulb, somebody in my History of Electrics class, which was interactive, did it so I know a fair bit about it.

    I would like to apologise for continually using objective and subjective the wrong way round. I'd like to blame dyspraxia, but it's probably just tiredness.
     
    #20
    Bernkastel and Nitafrong like this.
  21. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    This thread is an absolute undisputed display of why guys like Tastycles and TDigs are two of the forums best posters. So many of you did an awesome job.

    Misawa, having narrowly beaten the legendary Thesz, should damn sure be a contender for the final 4. If he's good enough to dispatch the man many feel is the greatest of all time, then few should be able to stand in his way.
     
    #21

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