Final Fantasy VII -v - Metal Gear Solid 3

Discussion in 'Gaia Region' started by Lee, Jun 27, 2011.

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  1. FFVII

  2. MGS3

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  1. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!

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    [​IMG]

    Just wow. What a matchup!

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. SalvIsWin

    SalvIsWin Scientific Skeptic

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    Final Fantasy VII.

    Both games have excellent stories, graphics, characters, music, and gameplay. Both games have some very shocking moments, memorable villain(s), and hang their hat on their plot.

    FF7 is above Metal Gear Solid 3 though because it stands on its own. FF7's and MGS3's story are their greatest assets, but while FF7 tells an original story with original characters, MGS3's story is woven into a broader storyline using characters from past games. My point is that if MGS3 is your first MGS experience, then the game suffers tremendously from that. Geeking out over MGS3 isn't really possible unless you've played previous games. For example, knowing the story of Big Boss is half-reason why playing as Big Boss is fucking awesome - if he's just a government agent, it's not as special.

    In my opinion, MGS3 is variably awesome. It can be absolutely amazing if you've played the previous games, or it can be a very game - whereas I feel that FF7 is excellent regardless, it needs nothing else other than itself.
     
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  3. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Metal Gear Solid was an absolutely brilliant game. But once sequels starting pouring out from the OG's popularity, the series went into the shitter. I'd even vote Donkey Kong over MGS3. Just one guy's opinion.

    Final Fantasy VII might be the greatest role playing game ever. This game completely turned the page in format and style of RPG's when it jumped platforms from SNES to Playstation. The storyline was insanely addictive, it was graphically superior, and it became everything that a Final Fantasy game owner ever dreamed it of being, let alone any RPG game. It leaped from the greatest RPG ever to one of the greatest video games of all time. That's quite a jump.

    FFVII cannot be stopped here.
     
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  4. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens

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    Final Fantasy should win this one.

    FF VII is my favorite game in the series. I played it for hours at a time and loved every second if it. Just a great classic game that I would still play if I had a PS1.

    MGS3 was a good game and i enjoyed it but I found myself getting bored a lot sooner than I did with FF.

    both fun games but FF VII needs to go over here.
     
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  5. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I think I have to give this one to Final Fantasy VII.

    The thing about Snake Eater, is that is was probably the only Metal Gear Solid game that I really enjoyed. Don't get me wrong, I liked the series as much as the next guy but Snake Eater was the only game in the series that really captured my imagination.

    That being said, Final Fantasy VII takes the cake. It was probably the second best game in the Final Fantasy series (you all know which one I think was best) and really managed to have a wave of support behind it constantly. Cloud Strife is perhaps one of the best heroes in the history of gaming and his trials throughout Final Fantasy VII delivers one of the best gaming stories ever told. His battles with Sephiroth is utterly astounding and is easily enough to take it over Snake Eater on this occasion.
     
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  6. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias One Winged Admin
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    This should be a fairly easy win for FF7. There's not much left I can say about the impact it had that I have not already mentioned in previous rounds. It was not only incredibly influential in the gaming world by making RPG's more mainstream, but also was one of the most enjoyable games I have ever played. My copy has seen countless replays over the past several years. I love the story, the soundtrack, the materia system, the cutscenes.... Everything about the game was brilliant. It deserves to go onto the next round more than Metal Gear 3 because it's the better game by a very large margin.

    Do the right thing. Vote for Final Fantasy 7.
     
  7. Loveless

    Loveless A Life In Monochrome

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    I love Snake Eater and against any other game I could put up a legitimate argument as to why it should win but Final Fantasy VII simply has it beaten hands down in every catergory, apart from graphics where it's not fair to compare anyway.

    Story - VII
    Characters - VII
    Villains - VII
    Longevity - VII
    Revolutionary - VII

    Even when it comes down to the fun factor you've got the Golden Saucer arcade, snowboarding, chocobo racing, battle arena, materia collecting, the Weapons. I just don't see any argument for Snake Eater and considering it's probably one of my top 10 games, that should tell you how good Final Fantasy VII is.
     
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  8. Darkshot77

    Darkshot77 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    How to word this correctly...It is difficult to get my point across because this is completely opinion based, and I guess I have a differing opinion. But this has been grinding my gears. And I guess I will be direct.

    Final Fantasy VII was ground breaking in that it brought RPG's to the fore front, it sold the Playstation and It made Square-Enix what it is today. But Fantastic game it is not. I guess I like the classics where you could go everywhere, there were so many ways to customize your characters and the games aren't so dark. But in contrast, FFVII started the FF series into becoming more linear, where FFXII was so heavily criticized. Basic towns and dungeons were no longer free roaming. Quite honestly the characters were not that great. Cloud and Sephiroth are by far from being the best hero and villain of the franchise. Because of the games graphics and the new play station system, many people played it. But The story was a step down from Final Fantasy 6, love triangle not as compelling as Final Fantasy 4, Characters lacked the customization of Final Fantasy 5. The story took several prequels and squeals to fully explain. Honestly, it was a only good game at a fantastic time making it so popular.

    MGS 3: Hideo Kojima is a Genius. Shooters were never really known for their plots, But He took Metal Gear and made it an epic. MGS 3 was no exception. It filled the holes left from the first two games, gave you the the awesome Big Boss and one of the best boss fights ever in The End. It had all the character development, drama and action of FFVII and more, with better, more hands on game play. The Surprise death of Aerith was dramatic, but is matched, if not surpassed by the scene where you are forced to kill The Boss. Every character, including the villains are compelling. It beats Final fantasy VII in all categories.

    Now dont get me wrong, FFVII is good, but MGS 3 is better
     
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  9. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias One Winged Admin
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    Not quite. Square-Enix was already an established company at this point. Games like Final Fantasy 4 and Secret of Mana are the ones who made Square-Enix what it is today. FF7 was just the crown achievement of a company who were an already worldwide success.


    You could not POSSIBLY be more wrong here.


    You can revist nearly every single location in Final Fantasy 7. The entire world is available for exploration at pretty much any time once you get vehicles. The entire series was like that up until Final Fantasy X, and even that one didn't have too many "points of no return".


    Dark I'll give you.... but you're WAY off on the customization argument. The Materia system opened up the door for an infinite amount of battle tactics. It was up to you the player to figure out what each of the potential combinations were. Thanks to this, 7 had arguably the most customization of any other game in the series. Nice try.


    What? No it didn't. Final Fantasy ONE started that. ALL of them are linear other than optional side quests. You always had a main quest to complete and other optional ones to do. As for the towns and dungeons no longer being free roaming? You could return to almost any location at almost any time. Again, nice try.


    Do you have any idea what you're talking about!? Final Fantasy 7 had one of the best casts of any video game in history. Cloud had an incredible backstory that kept you curious about what the real story was as more things got revealed. Sephiroth devolved from worldwide hero to insane lunatic. The iconic Aeris death, the love interest in Tifa, the vulgar Cid, even the slightly annoying Cait Sith had his moments. Every character was great and developed like no other game before it and very few after it have come close to replicating such a memorable cast.



    Not quite. 6 had a good story too, but 7's was better. In 7 EVERYONE who was playable had character development, whereas in 6 most of the main characters saw little to no development. Kefka was just an insane clown while Sephiroth was legitimately evil and the true standard for every supervillain in gaming that followed. That's just character development. I didn't even start on the main storylines. 7 is the better of the two, hands down.



    Actually, yes it was. Kain turned heel due to giving in to his anger to the point where he would betray Cecil to get close to Rosa. Cecil forgives him so he turns face again and they travel together again. That's more or less the whole love triangle in 4. Now, in 7 Aeris dies before Cloud is ever forced into making an official decision. It leaves you wondering who he would have picked had he had a choice. The way it works out does go well, with Cloud ending up with the girl he had a crush on as a child, but he liked Aeris too.


    The only customization in 5 was giving random abilities to random classes. A Black Mage could cast White Magic. A Ranger could equip Spears. Most of those are novelty customizations. In FF7 you could customize your characters to the point where there was an endless list of potential battle tactics. It all comes down to the Materia in the end.


    A further testament to how good the story is. A good story leaves you feeling somewhat satisfied. A great story leaves you asking for more, FF7 did just that before it got its prequels and sequels. Even to this day it continues to leave the fans wanting to know more about its great story.


    Metal Gear 3 was good. I'm not denying that. However, FF7 is better in every possible way. It will take FAR more than filling plot holes of prequels or the addition of new characters for it to be considered better than FF7.


    No it didn't. You can't sit there and tell me that Metal Gear 3 had more character development or drama than FF7 did. FF7's character development was seen in the main hero, all of his playable allies, the main villain, other non-playable characters, and even some of the monsters. Metal Gear 3 might have more action, but that depends on your definition of action. I won't even get started on how you claim that the mother of all spoilers (Aeris dies) is surpassed by you being forced to kill The Boss. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. FF7 made you care about every single character, even the lowly generic townspeople that few games have ever made anyone take notice of.

    Final Fantasy 7 is the better game of the two and you have yet to prove me wrong because there is nothing Metal Gear 3 can offer that makes it anywhere near FF7's quality level. Nice try and you are brave for your attempt, but you're entire post was wrong.
     
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  10. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!

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    Aeris dying is not the mother of all spoilers, the following two are:
    Samus Aran is a female: Metroid

    Sheik is Princess Zelda: Ocarina of Time

    I think having to kill your father beats a love interest to be honest. The character development in MGS3 is pretty damn good and reading the rest of your post it's clear you've not played the game, or should I say "Didn't care for it much"

    I'm still voting FFVII as I think it's the better game but Dagger please stop with the bullshit and arrogance you've got, it's getting old very fast.
     
  11. Wade's Public Transit Bomb

    Wade's Public Transit Bomb Championship Contender

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    ANYONE who has played a ANY RPG game that came out prior to this one knows that there is very little originality in the game.

    The characters are just a group of generic emotions (grumpy, butt hurt, annoying, pretentious, depressed, stoic, naive) with each only exhibited one of them for most of the game. In a previous post, people proclaimed that there was character development. Really? Cloud is still the whiny asshole at the beginning as he was at the end, only difference is that he was much more verbal about his whiny asshole-ness at the end of it. Even when they had a chance to show something in a character (ie Red's return home) he went right back to be a complete holier than thou character. The only one who had any real character development was Aeris and she died early in the game.

    The story about saving the world from crazed and/or evil fuck is like every game with a storyline.. Speaking of which, the story is so poorly executed that it boggles me how people can think it is a good one. It just feels like a bunch of side stories mashed into one game. "Like, go do your own shit and we MIGHT have something that connects it to the main story." Most of the side quests don't feel like they are really part of the game because you have to go out of your way to find them.

    A vote for Final Fantasy 7 here would just add to the completely overrated legacy it has.
     
  12. Serious Mozzarella

    Serious Mozzarella Special Victims Unit

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    Seriously? Final Fantasy 4 is what made Squaresoft? No, you are objectively wrong. Final Fantasy 7 brought mainstream America into JRPGs, and threw Square onto the map. Sure, some of their other games were relatively popular, but they had a cult following, nothing like they have now.

    This is also wrong. You had designated physical hitters and magical hitters. If you didn't know this, you were playing the game wrong.

    Let's break this down:

    -Cloud had zero backstory. His backstory was that of a completely different characters'. He was just some asshole that lied to everyone because he was embarrassed about not getting into SOLDIER. Not your typical Mary-Sue Squeenix character, but not really a compelling backstory.
    -The Aeris death was known for pissing off gamers who spent time grinding her and leveling with her throughout the first disc. You misinterpreted all the commotion that scene gets.
    -The love interest in Tifa went almost completely unexplored.
    -Cid was a character that abused the shit out of his woman, and then paraded as if you were supposed to have sympathy for him.
    -Cait Sith repeatedly back-stabbed and betrayed the party, and they seem be cool with it.

    The character writing was shoddy at best, unfinished at worst.

    Seriously, what? That's why Kefka was more evil than Sephiroth. Sephiroth had a goal, with justifications that could be considered sympathetic depending on how you twist it. Kefka was just evil because he was insane. He was The Joker. Your own point contradicts you here.

    Your theory is cool and all, but this "love triangle" you're talking about all happened in your head. The entire thing culminated with a date at Gold Saucer between one of the two (or Barret or Yuffie) with very little conversation, that leads absolutely nowhere. Sure, the romance is implied, but don't sit here and tell me that this "love triangle" is anywhere near as complex as you're making it seem. The entire point of this "romance" with Aeris was to make a bigger emotional impact on the player over Aeris' death. Everything else is speculation.

    Yeah, until you look at the characters' base stats, and start feeling stupid that you kept Aeris in the front row for physical hitting, wondering why she was doing 47 damage a hit. Each character was designed for either magic or physical damage. This is not up for debate.

    No, a bad story leaves you asking for more. As in, they had to make an entire game outlining his past due to their inability to write his character properly.

    You don't know what a plot hole is. Everything in MGS3 was explored or at least referenced in previous games. The game served as a prequel for MGS 2 and 4.

    Are you literally stupid? I don't even know what to make of this. I am convinced that you are the single most ill-informed, and quite frankly mkost ignorant member of the WZVG community. Like, it doesn't even make sense. I'm not going to even sit here and explain why this is the most blatantly, objectively incorrect thing I've ever read on this forums, because it's obvious you've never even played more than 10 minutes of any MG game.

    Or, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt. IF you played them, and I'm almost 99% sure you haven't, even though you'll just contradict that and say you have, for the sake of "RELENTLESS DEBATING" or whatever, I'll be willing to grant the fact that you played it while skipping over EVERY cutscene and nanomachine conversation. Because there is no possible way that FINAL GODDAMN FANTASY 7 which is fucking notorious for its extremely shoddy writing and character development* than Metal Gear Solid, which is notorious on its own for its wildly expansive story and writing.

    There is more character development in Metal Gear 1 for the NES than all Final Fantasy games combined.

    *Cloud going from an energetic leader who makes jokes and is determined to save the world to a weeaboo-baiting emo bitch boy because he fell into the lifestream is not character development. It's character replacement.

    No one will ever prove you wrong because you care more about winning debates than you do about actually learning something. Do me a favor. If you're going to vote in this thing, just admit you haven't played the games you're voting against, or just don't post about it at all. You've made yourself look like a massive ****** throughout this entire tournament and I'm not the only one who thinks it.

    Edit: By the way, you helped me vote again. Thanks.

    Voted for MGS3.
     
  13. SalvIsWin

    SalvIsWin Scientific Skeptic

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    Why is having to kill The Boss matching, or surpassing the scene where Aeris dies? Aeris dying was special because she was a main character, and the central love interest of Cloud, and she is abruptly killed off. The Boss is established as the villain from the very beginning of the game - what's the surprise?

    OK so explain now why MGS3 is the better game. You've simplified FF7's story as best you possibly could, and you've listed the dynamic between Cloud and Sephiroth as, "..saving the world from a crazed and/or evil fuck". Guess what - that's the basic formula for any story. You have a protagonist and a villain, so if you think any story that follows the formula that video games, movies, television have followed for fucking ages is unoriginal, you can say that about every game on this list.

    Also, explain the side missions comment please. Any side missions you're given is only after hours and hours of going through the main storyline, and then you're given the chance to branch out and do some other things, or just follow the main story.

    And they don't feel like they're apart of the game? What's that mean - they're in the game, how are they not apart of it? Do you mean not apart of the main story? It's called a side mission for a reason. Also, a lot of the side missions just give further backstory to characters, events, or just the general world that you're exploring.

    Also - you're complaining about the characters being generic, and one of the examples you give is Cloud being emo, and then at the end of the game he hasn't changed that much. That's actually refreshing because basic storytelling involves your main character having an arc, like an event or something he must conquer, and then after that he's a changed person, usually for the better. With Cloud, he's a sad and lonely individual at the beginning of the game, and in some ways still is at the end of the game because Aeris has died, Zack has died, and his mentor at one point, Sephiroth, has been killed. So explain that as well please.

    Zero backstory, yet there's an entire hour portion of the game where you find out about the Nibelheim reactor where Sephiroth was thrown into the Mako. How about the flashback with Cloud and Tifa as children? How about the scene where you control Tifa and have to help Cloud reassemble his memory. What the fuck are you talking about?

    The Aeris death is known for being shocking. The amount of people who play a game and level the shit out of a character is much smaller than the people who just casually play. There's no doubt a section of people who leveled Aeris and had her die, but if you're suggesting that the commotion for Aeris' death is that people were made they wasted time, you're clueless.



    What? So sequels, which are made usually because the original was popular or grossed a lot of money, are made because the original was bad, yet popular or made money?

    In the MGS story, the Patriots are the shadowy figures behind the scenes, and for game, after game, it's Patriots this, and Patriots that. Some of your teammates in MGS3, Para-Medic and Sigint, are just two throwaway characters that you would in no way have guessed that were actually going to critical to the story. It's as if Kojima went back and just decided that Para-Medic and Sigint would be two of the founding Patriot members.

    There's a lot of backstory on all the MGS3 characters, but that information is given through multiple, multiple games, and sources. The character you play as, Big Boss, has so much information on him if you wanted to look it up: but how much of it is explained in MGS3? How much do you really know about Big Boss if you simply played the game, no prequels or sequels, and payed attention to the story? Not a lot - and sure as hell not enough to suggest how big of a fucking deal it is to be playing as him. The fun of MGS3 comes from if you've played prior games.

    Ocelot is a shitty fucking villain in MGS3 if you take him how he is isolated in that game, it's the context that you're meeting and fighting ocelot, a character you have fought with and heard about many times in past games that makes it cool - otherwise he's just a douchebag in a red beret making cat noises - awesome.
     
  14. red ass skull muhfukkah

    red ass skull muhfukkah Dooooooooooooom

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    I voted for MGS3 because I basically just had more fun playing it and it's one of those games I can play multiple times and not get sick of. I liked FFVII and it probably deserves most of the praise it gets but I just never got that into it. The story didn't really grab me in or make me want more, maybe because I didn't play it until about 5 years after it came out. The characters were alright but Snake is my muddahfuckin boy.

    I just thoroughly enjoy almost every aspect of MGS3. The story was awesome, great characters (Ocelot was the man), the boss battles were simply amazing. Crawling around in the woods eating snakes and choosing different camouflages was pretty boss too.

    FFVII was good but MGS3 is my shit.
     
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  15. Sean Valjean

    Sean Valjean Lets Bitch About This Thing We Love

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    I'm a bit surprised at the results so far. Interesting.

    These two are pretty much even in most respects. Both tell excellent stories, have a memorable cast, are fun to play and are among the best entries in their respective series. They are also two games that I hold dear. With that said, the only way to break this stalemate is deciding which game mattered more to gaming. And that game is Final Fantasy VII.

    You can call the game overrated all you want, and maybe it is in some respects, but there's no denying the impression it left on the role-playing genre and the industry in general that's still felt even today.
     
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  16. Loveless

    Loveless A Life In Monochrome

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    This is why I red repped you. No backstory? Are you fucking kidding me?

    We know he was born in Nibelheim
    We see him growing up with his mum and Tifa
    We see a pivotal fucking moment where tells Tifa he's leaving to join Soldier and later explains that he was doing it for her.
    We learn how he failed and was just a runt recruit
    We see the entire Nibelheim reactor incident in a backstory that takes up at least 30 minutes total
    We see how he did infact kill Sephiroth by throwing him off the bridge while impaled
    We see how he was saved from the reactor by Zack
    We see how he escaped from the dungeon with Zack
    We see him take Zack's Buster sword after Zack is killed

    Zero backstory? Verdict - You're talking out your arse


    And you've missed the point. It was supposed to piss people off, that's how you create great villains. Fucks sake, have you never watched wrestling?

    Where are you making this stuff up from? Have you ever even played the game or are you just reading the sparknotes?

    No-one had any sympathy for Sid and you should remember that he changes his tune once he realised his woman had saved his life.

    Cait Sith redeemed himself multiple times, first by getting the black materia out of the temple of the ancients and then by leaking information from the Shinra boardroom.

    I can't compete with this kind of stupidity and wrong .

    So Kefka, who was basically just insane is a better written character than Sephiroth who has reason, motivation, a plan and is sympathetic? :lmao:

    Notorious for shoddy writing? You mean the game that's widely regarded as one of the greatest gaming stories ever written. Now you're just trolling.

    Yep, you're a troll

    I don't call that character development, I call it being in a coma. It was started explicitly that he was suffering from massive mako poisoning.
     
  17. Serious Mozzarella

    Serious Mozzarella Special Victims Unit

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    Aside from your inability to understand me speaking in hyperbole, I don't really have much to say. Of fucking course Cloud has backstory. But a majority of it wasn't his backstory. You can sit here and say "you've missed the point" until your face (or fingers, whatever) turns blue, but you seemed to have missed the point that I'm speaking in comparison to Solid Snake, you know, the other side of the argument?

    Other than that, you're pretty correct. He has some backstory. Riveting observation.

    Okay? I'm not saying the character of Sephiroth pissed people off. I'm saying the game developers pissed people off, people who leveled her because her stats were up there with Vincent's in terms of being a caster, and then they killed her off. Did you know, in the first two versions of the game, your non-used characters didn't level up with your main party? Do you have any idea how frustrating that was, with the game being somewhat grindy as it is?

    Are you going to elaborate on your counter-argument, or are you just going to sit there with your fingers in your ears saying LOL GUYS, HE'S MAKING STUFF UP.

    Sure, the love triangle actually existed, but the climax of that triangle happened at the Gold Saucer during that "date", and the romance between Cloud and Tifa never went anywhere after Aeris died.

    So you're telling me that his initial flashback detailing the space program incident wasn't meant to make you feel bad for Cid, as he complained about his dreams being ruined, and having nothing else to live for? Sorry, we're not barbarians, we don't treat women like piece-of-shit slaves, regardless of any incident, ever. It was clear from the beginning that she had his best interests at heart. It doesn't matter if he ended up forgiving her during the second take off. The entire first flashback was meant for the player to have sympathy for Cid, and it was poorly done.

    Well shit, can't argue with that logic. Good argument, sir. My stamina is withering away reading it. I'm just reduced to a pile of argument-less goop.

    Who said anything about Kefka being better than Sephiroth? We're talking about how evil he was, not how much better of a character he was.

    I've made my points on the matter. If you disagree with them, that's fine. But really, one of the greatest gaming stories ever written?

    :lmao:

    Again, can't argue with that kind of logic. Damn, you should compete in the debate tournament.

    Okay? How does that change the fact that his entire personality was replaced? I don't get it. It went from the FF7 Cloud to the horrible FF7:AC version of Cloud that just about ruined the entire universe for me.
     
  18. SalvIsWin

    SalvIsWin Scientific Skeptic

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    This is all you wrote in your post about MGS. You're not saying anything about MGS3, you're simply saying why you think FF7 isn't great. Ironically, the only thing you said about the actual competition of FF7 in this thread is just blatantly wrong. In comparison to Solid Snake? Why are you comparing Cloud to Solid Snake - he wasn't even in MGS3.

    Compare MGS3 to FF7, and explain to me why MGS3, not the whole franchise, not MG, not MGS - but MGS3, the actual game we're talking about, is better.
     
  19. Serious Mozzarella

    Serious Mozzarella Special Victims Unit

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    You realize Solid Snake is a clone of Big Boss, right? Same exact character model, same voice actor, same character. Granted, I did actually mean to say Naked Snake, but anybody would have caught my meaning except for somebody grasping at straws attempting to dismantle my argument (hint: it starts with "S" and ends with "alvIsWin")

    The entire story between Naked Snake (I'm just going to call him Snake, ffs, this is silly) and The Boss was wonderfully crafted, as it explored love, betrayal, and tied it in with the government conspiracy theme, as is the overall theme of the franchise. I'm not going to sit here and explain intricate plot details, because anyone that even remotely heard anything about any MGS game will know how complex it gets, but the ending (not spoiling it) is known for affecting you on a deep emotional level. We saw a gruff military soldier transform into someone who is truly able to experience deep emotions about having to go through trying to figure out how to best his master. We then saw the beginnings of The Patriots (which isn't the same thing as it is in MGS 2 and 3) because of events surrounding the ending of the game.

    These weren't people that were just thrown into the mix and called "The Patriots." Everybody in this game was referenced in a previous game in some form, especially in MGS2.

    I'm not saying Final Fantasy 7 is a bad game. In fact, I'm literally re-playing it right now. It's paused as I type this. Compared to MGS3 (or any MGS game), however, it's written like some weeaboo fan-fiction. Some characters flat out didn't have any development whatsoever. Red XIII got some damn decent development, but I'm pretty sure Vincent never got touched, Yuffie, Barrett, and Tifa had stories but no real development, and everyone else were just there.
     
  20. SalvIsWin

    SalvIsWin Scientific Skeptic

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    Yes, although the underlined is incorrect. I know what you meant, but your arguments have been against FF7, not for MGS3, so it was ironic that the one thing you did say for MGS3 wasn't actually correct.

    The entire story between Cloud & Sephiroth involved mentorship, and betrayal. Cloud & Aeris' dynamic was a love plot, with Tifa being on the outside looking in. The portions of the game with Hojo, Shinra, Sephiroth were about revenge. Saying a game is wonderfully crafted because it explored themes X, Y, and Z doesn't say why it's better. Why is MGS3's story better? Does it hit on the themes you said more than FF7 in your opinion?


    Aeris dying is known for affecting the player on a deep emotional level. We see Cloud, the loner, selfish mercenary begin to care for, and you could argue love, the other characters. Cloud also has to confront his creation and his past. Similar to what I said above, I can say the exact type of thing about FF7 as you are doing about MGS3 - I'm asking why it's better, you're just saying why it's good.


    Arguable to be honest. Para-medic and Sigint turn out to be Patriots, yet when I played MGS3, I thought they were just throwaway characters. It seems like Kojima just found it convenient to have those characters be patriots at some point. Nanomachines are the explanation to everything in the Metal Gear universe, which is fine, but I think it's worth pointing out because you're talking about lazy writing and character development in FF7, yet it's not like Metal Gear is without its share of shoehorned explanations.


    Compared to the Metal Gear franchise, it pales in comparison yes, but we're not comparing the franchise. If you look at MGS3 by itself, if you hadn't played any of the other games, this is a list of characters/things you probably wouldn't know / care about:[/list]
    [*] Ocelot.
    [*] Patriots.
    [*] Sigint.
    [*] Para-medic.
    [*] Solid Snake - the actual protagonist to the Metal Gear Series.[/list]
    Ocelot for example becomes a shitty villain because there's no context to him. It's just assumed that you know all about him from previous games.

    Because the game takes place in the past, it cannot reference or explain anything that's going to happen in the future, because that wouldn't make any sense. It can lay the groundwork for all of the things that happen in the series, and that's why the game is great, because you get to see all the groundwork being laid for the later events which you've already played through. However that's also it's flaw, because if you haven't played any of the original games, all you're doing is seeing a lot of groundwork being laid for something you know nothing about.

    Perfect example: The game sets up the philosopher's legacy and the patriots, but because the patriots actually come into existence later on in the canon of the franchise, it can't go ahead and explain them, yet understanding the backstory of the patriots is half the fucking point of the game! It's a huge flaw and it's why it's not better than FF7 which, although it has some plot holes and under-developed characters, can stand on its own.
     
  21. Darkshot77

    Darkshot77 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Dagger attacked me...I might be getting somewhere.

    May I go back to one of my original points that, this is a solely opinion based topic. There is relatively little factual evidence to either one of our claims.

    Reason Facts are of no worth in this argument:
    Final fantasy VII world wide sales as of 2010: 10 Million copies.
    Metacritic rating: 92%
    MGS 3: 3.96 million copies world wide
    Meta critic rating: 91%
    So the critic percentages are about the same and just to show you that copies sold doesn't matter:
    Wii Play: 26.71 million copies world wide
    Metacritic rating: 58%
    Does that mean its the best game...I think not. So the facts are pointless.
    I believe that Final Fantasy VII is not the best Final Fantasy, let alone the best game. And no manner of disagreement is going to shake my opinion. In just the same way that many believe that Final Fantasy VII is the best game. And no matter what I do to sway them, it will be of no avail. This Is the same as the Kefka vs. Sephiroth better villain debate (I support Kefka) and the ever raging Clerith vs. Cloti Debate(I support Cloti). Hell this is like a political debate. Two unwavering sides battling it out for supremacy. The Hardcore of one will never convince the hardcore of the other, leading us into an endless cycle of hate in which Chaos will be reborn 2000 years in the future.

    Further more these are two completely different games, so what we have here is an apples and oranges comparison. Which inevitably leads to ridiculous generalizations, and poor comparisons.

    Now you all know this and may be wondering, "If you don't like debate and feel it is pointless, then why bother posting?" Well Dagger has thrown down the gauntlet, and I have to stick to my guns. I am here to defend my position and hope for intelligent discussion of differing opinions. So here I go submitting myself to more punishment.

    Every town/dungeon had a set path you had to walk on (not to mention the controls were a little clunky, I don't know how many times I walked into the side of the doorway, but this was 1997 so it gets a pass) Sure you had a free roaming world map, but it was a step (albeit small) towards the "long dark hallway"

    Mabey my issue is not with character customization, but rather character/job independence. This really dates back to FF6, but the same issue is present in FF7. Every character in FF7 is loosely given a job: Barrett is a Gunner, Tifa is a monk, Cid is a dragoon, ect. What is the difference between Cid and Barrett? Their Limits. That is all. All people can be taught ultima, can be given deathblow and morph, and can act as mage or warrior at any given notice, just change the Materia. Your party was solely based upon who had better limits or who you liked better, it had nothing to do with their individual strengths, because they were all cookie cutter. Sure they all had different base stats, but in the endgame that really didn't matter. Tifa could go from warrior to mage to in between at the drop of a hat, but this want anything special. She would do the exact same thing Cait Sith would if he had the same materia. And if you were dedicated enough in FFVII to get the huge materias there was no limit to what your character could do, and every character could do that, making them all the same. The only difference is limits. Maybe this is a personal gripe but I like all my characters/jobs to fill a specific roll in battle (Final fantasy 9 for example), I do not like it when every character/job has the capacity to do everything. I guess I was wrong, I'll admit it, Final Fantasy 7 has loads of customization, but it is too much. It leaving your characters undefined and leaving party choice to who you like better, not who would best complement my other characters and best fit in this situation.

    I will not delve into my dislikes of the story, because all of our interpretations of the story and/or the characters are just that. I believe that Cloud is an emo with an identity crisis that needs to suck it up, and be a man. But that isn't cannon. Neither is the opinion that he is the greatest hero ever because he not only over comes his personal struggles but also saves the world. Further pursuing this brings me no pleasure, so I will move on.

    Metal Gear solid three is more than a game, its an experience, the game play is more hands on, the story is compelling, The boss fights are epic. For several hours you become Big Boss. Kojima does an excellent job of putting you in Big Bosses shoes. Big Boss doesn't kill his mentor and leader, the Boss, you the player does. Ocelot isn't playing Russian roulette with Big Boss, he is playing it with you. You are there in thick of it, sneaking around or breaking through, making life and death decisions, you are the one avoiding The Fear's traps, you are the one running trying to find The End. Its not some avatar, its you. That's how it feels to play MGS 3 and that's what gives it the edge over FF7.

    I invite intelligent discussion. And though my post will do no thing to sway those on the side of FF7, MGS 3 is leading the polls so maybe I have done something right.
     
    The Doctor and Lee like this.
  22. Loveless

    Loveless A Life In Monochrome

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    Vincent - Former Turk, love triangle with Hojo and Lucrecia, locked in a dungeon and experimented on. Don't think I ever got Vincent to level 4 for the final resolution with Lucrecia under the waterfall so I don't know what happened there.

    Yuffie - Stealing materia to impress her father and protect her town after the war of Wutai which Shinra won. Not much development outside the pagoda challenge but it's there.

    Barrett - Everything he does is for his daughter, who is infact not his daughter but Dyne's, his friend who he beleived he was responsibe for killing. Barrett is also inadvertently responsible for the destruction of Corel and as a consequence the death of his wife.

    Tifa - Cloud's childhood love and the only reason Cloud joined or stayed with Avalanche. Her mother dies when she was young, Sephiroth kills her father and burns her town to the ground, Shinra drops a city on her bar. All she actually has is Cloud and that's all resolved just before the crater assault when they spend the night together.

    Cid's resolution comes when Shera saves him
    Cait Sith (Reeve) is redeemed when he turns his back on Shinra
    Red XIII has to deal with the truth about his father's death
    Aeries in her very last act saves the planet
    Cloud regains his memory, keeps his promise to Tifa and becomes the kind of soldier he wanted to be.


    I'd just like to add that it's not Aeries death that's shocking, it's the manner of it.
    She runs off in the middle of the night to the Forgotten city in order to cast Holy and save everyone. As the group finds her she is in the church on her knees praying. Clouds Jenova cells kick in and possessed he almost kills her but resists, RELIEF right? Well no, because no sooner has he put his sword away...

    [YOUTUBE]DJbQxDmhPFo[/YOUTUBE]

    That's pretty fucking callous to kill a young girl as she's praying in a church and it comes out of absolutely nowhere. I remember playing this aged 14 and being so shocked that I actually reset the game to see if I could save her. You just didn't kill of characters like that back in 97.
     
  23. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!

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    Metal Gear Solid 3 wins (any bitching will result in an infraction).
     
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